How realistic is it to try and get 15 hours of UA with a spouse who is not on board with the MB Program?

Those of us doing the MB program understand why it's important, but for anyone else - it sounds like smothering.

I guess the 15 hours should be my line in the sand. (My husband does not want a divorce, Chris, which makes it a little different than you.)

At some point, I throw down that gauntlet. "We need to be spending more time together and we both need to make that our top priority right now. If we can't do that, I don't see how we can have a relationship that is satisfying for either one of us. We both need to commit to 15 hours a week focused on sex, conversation, and recreation, we need to plan it out each week and follow through. If that doesn't improve things, we'll reevaluate, but I'm not going to continue to be married to a man who is unwilling to at least try that for a month and see what happens."

How does that sound?

But isn't it essentailly the same?

(As described here)


You're darned right - No wonder I was a wreck the first 2 weeks.

So what's the answer?

Here's Dr. Harley on Plan A:



Here's Dr. Harley on Withdrawl



So Plan A looks very much like "Coaxing a spouse out of Withdrawl" with the exception that in Plan A, there is a thoughtful request for the WS to cease all contact with the OW / OM...Seems like with both situations, the spouse who is working MB is doing it without the other spouse and is going to have a tough time of it because they'll be doing all the heavy lifting in the beginning...but how long is too long?

This question is of particular interest to me as well. Here's another -

Catch 22 - We're told if we work MB properly, our spouse will come out of Withdrawl....we're also told that without the 15 hours (minimum) of UA, we're not working the MB Program properly. At the same time, it's unlikely that you'll get 15 hours UA with a spouse in Withdrawl or a reluctant spouse. So...what's the answer here?

Yes.


Waiting eagerly to see what the vets say.

Mark is right that Dr Harley has never called it "Plan A" in his books and writings. Until very recently, you would never see him use that term except in the case of adultery. In a recent newsletter, however, he did actually call it Plan A for the first time. [that I know of]

He used it in a unique way to counsel a woman whose husband refused to meet her needs:

When to Call it Quits

That's where I saw it!

Thanks Mel.

Some parts of "When to Call it Quits" is a scary read because it's the truth.

TTT, generally speaking if they don't get it in a month, they will probably never get it. The problem with doing a long term Plan A is that it often leads to one spouse developing enormous resentment and an erosion of love for the other spouse. Once the feelings grow to hate, they are very hard to turn around. Plan A is a state of sacrifice, which is extreme GIVING. And extreme giving leads to resentment and extreme taking.

I found a lot of telling statements in "When to Call it Quits," part 3:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit3.html


I would never want to try separation without the best experts in the world looking at me to see if I've truly been avoiding love busters and meeting emotional needs. I came here thinking I was doing this and discovered I was not.

Also:

Good point about separation Markos.

I think this is a good point, but I don't believe an expert is required for everyone, although it would be a good idea! Most just get it by reading the book Lovebusters. There really is no such thing as a perfect plan A.

On second thought, Markos, I think you have a good point. Not everyone is as slow as me, but in my case, I was still engaging in INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR even after 5 years!

Wow, thanks for digging that stuff up. Especially the part form the newsletter. I know I've read that before, but I don't remember reading the part about preparing for plan B before beginning plan A.

I have been feeling guilty (though not remorseful) about wanting to see a lawyer when at the same time I feel I should be putting my energy into "saving" the marriage. So I've been in a state of mostly inaction either way. I thought this would be like having one foot out the door. I guess I should have read my own posts about that a week ago!

So I think I am becoming a lot more motivated today to stop the inaction. I may even see about calling SH. Not quite there yet, but seriously considering it now instead of dismissing.

My alanon sponsor has been GREAT at calling me on the carpet about that sort of thing. I also have another program "friend" who is known for her 2x4's and which I have experienced one. She scares me to death, but she is the one I will go to when I need to make a decision.

I hear you on the Catch 22 about UA time, Chris. I think the important thing for me to do is SCHEDULE IT ANYWAY. If my husband refuses to participate, then so be it. Then it's his choice and none of the blame can fall on me. CYA. Not the BEST motivation in the world, but it's what I've got right now, and it's real.

I would never know if I was slow or not if other people hadn't enlightened me.

What does that look like?

I mean - give me an example. You make reservations for 2 at a restaurant and you show up even if he doesn't...

Chris, I haven't done this yet, so it's just theory.

Ideally I will ask my husband to participate in the scheduling so that we can POJA. We already have a list of "approved activities" that we negotiated several weeks ago, so if he won't participate, I can use that.

On Sunday afternoon we will sit down with the calendar and literally schedule in our one-on-one time. While I'm at it, I should probably do the same for my kids, too. I don't get much 1on1 with them either, especially the middle child.

My husband eats lunch out. I can easily plan to join him at least once a week, maybe more.

We have family in town who can help with babysitting, so I'm sure we can schedule a regular "date" on a weekend day for several hours on most weekends.

Going out during the week will be tough, but we can at least plan and hour or two each night to talk or play a card game.

Sex is a challenge, and I'm resistant to scheduling it. I won't engage in anything when I'm fertile, because we have already had two birth control failures, and pills are not an option. But when I feel safe from pregnancy, and can be truly willing, I will also do that. I have a major aversion to sex with my husband, but I am pushing through it as best I can right now. Yes, I've read Harley's article on it, and clearly Harley himself has never had a sexual aversion because his "solution" is very simplistic. I know that when my husband starts meeting my emotional needs and I am in love with him, I will no longer have the aversion. Perhaps that is the "carrot" that will motivate him, although my husband has said that if I have to "work" to feel "in love" then it's not real. I understand. I've thought that before too. I see differently now.

So that's the plan. There's only a few hours in my week that are open for UA time. So scheduling won't be hard. It's sticking to it that will be hard.

So when it comes to sticking to it, I will review my schedule each morning and make a commitment to it each morning. I will remind DH about the planned activity. I will motivate myself to look forward to the UA time each day, to anticipate and get excited. If he's in a bad mood or something else prevents him from participating in UA time, I will not take it personally, and I will have a backup plan, like a phone call or going to an alanon meeting, so that I don't focus on him and being let down.

Have you looked over the link to Mark1952's post that I linked to here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159534&Number=2341836#Post2341836 ?

Mark's story has a great gentleness about it that I think is important. If you make too many choices of the form "He/she won't discuss this with me (again), so I'll do it without him," I think it's risky. Mark appears to have just guessed on his own what would be a good way to start gradually meeting his wife's emotional needs, and meeting them.

In my case, I knew a couple of things about meeting my wife's needs and did similarly. There were days it appeared to have absolutely no effect at all, days I wanted to run screaming off the minute I came home because I was trying to show love for her and she was rejecting it, in withdrawal. But if you keep making those opportunities, eventually it can have an effect.

I tried a different approach many times: "You said this is what you wanted, so I'm going to keep doing it until you talk to me." "You won't talk to me, so I'll go off and do my own thing." It was pretty much nothing but a love bank withdrawal.

Also, since that thread seems to be abandoned, let me just bring my whole post over here. I think in particular it's important to recognize that withdrawal is not a conscious choice:

[b][/b]

Markos, this is an excellent point: Going ahead with the planned UA when the spouse isn't doing it may be a LB.

I need to figure out how to get UA in with my spouse, but it isn't going to be easy. He has a habit of going down to the basement and watching TV down there or going on his computer as soon as we get home. Sometimes I'll go down there and sit with him but, at times, he's working on homework or he needs "alone time." (I noticed an uptick in this "alone time" need after he came back from Iraq.

Truthfully, since I have been doing MB, I have seen improvements in the way we are spaeking to each other. Also, he will come up and interact with me for a little while. He has been calling me at work more at this point too. There are noticeable differences.

Baby Steps which lead to bigger steps - like what Mark did is probably what I need to do as far as trying to get UA in (at least until he is on board with MB). I Need to get creative and brain storm. This is challenging while I am on crutches & in an air boot though Just a few more weeks...

I am sincerely hoping we'll be in the May MB Weekend.

Another point: if your spouse isn't willing to schedule 15 hours UA time with you, spend whatever time you can with your spouse meeting their intimate emotional needs, even if that is less than 15 hours. If they aren't willing to turn off the television, watch television with them, and provide affection and a bit conversation while you do it. Fix a snack if they like that sort of thing. Offer a small gift if they like that. Just take care of them.

Make the time spent with you pleasant. Make it the most pleasant time they have all week. (Got that from Mark. It's not a direct quote, but it's pretty much what he was saying. He eventually made the time spent with him so pleasant for his wife and valuable to her that she dumped the man she was committing adultery with!) Resist any idea that might potentially make the time you are trying to spend with your spouse less pleasant.

Always make it a thoughtful request. "Can I watch TV with you?" "How would you feel if we went for a walk?" (Some requests don't need words. Make it a request by being willing to not respond with selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts if your offer is declined. For example, if you prepare a snack and your spouse doesn't eat it, don't fall to pieces over it. You lost a chance to deposit love units, and that's sad, but keep the bigger picture in focus. There will be another opportunity.)