Since we are talking about compatibility a lot on one of the other threads, and I thought this might be a good way for me to share my �back story� which I have been reluctant to share up until now. But first, a segment from Dr. H.,





My own marriage was missing compatibility in many of these areas before marriage. We most definitely did NOT have the same energy level, social interest, cultural background, and some (but not all) values, especially with regard to religion. We probably have roughly the same IQ, but we are VERY different when it comes to �multiple intellegences.�

Harley seems to be saying that relationships that are lacking these fundamental compatibilities will be short-lived. But I am living proof that this is not always the case, and the fallout of this is the reason I found MB. I am a bit discouraged, because not only do I have a reluctant spouse (who is probably a �dry drunk,� i.e., doesn�t drink but isn�t emotionally or spiritually sober, and most definitely �acts out� through other addictive behaviors like porn and video games, which he refuses to see as a problem, much less stop), but we lacked some of these basic elements of compatibility from day one. I also wasn�t very physically attracted to him because of some specific body features that might not bother some people but do bother me.

Why did I marry him? I could spend the rest of my life trying to analyze that one! Basically I recognized that he was a good person and I believed that it was �superficial� of me to refuse him based on some things that I didn�t like. I did NOT believe at all in romantic love, because every time I was in love it ended VERY badly (due to my choices). So the lack of romantic love on my part was deliberate because I believed it to be superficial and just a biological �trick� our minds played on us to propagate the species. And we were very good at communicating without getting into fights (because I was not emotionally attached). Also, I did feel SOME attraction. But I was attracted to the idea of marriage, children, etc. More personally, I was attracted to how I felt when I was with him because I believed I was �fixing� him. And though I had doubts about marrying him and several people who knew me were critical, he told me he would convert to my religion after we were married, so my biggest doubt was �erased.�

It was a classic case of the wife getting married in the hopes her husband will change, and the husband getting married in the hopes that his wife DOESN'T change Both totally unrealstic expectations that lead to a lot of resentment.

Within 3 months of the marriage I knew I made a huge mistake but had too much pride and fear and denial to do anything about it except emotionally withdraw and resign myself to a life in a loveless marriage. I kept the secret from him, tried to blame him and his habits for all our problems. I thought that having children would cause us both to change (I was right to some extent) and that the changes of parenthood would create compatiblity because it would change our lifestyles.

Despite my struggles to be physically intimate, we planned and conceived our first child, and had two otehr unplanned but very welcomed babies. I am apprently VERY fertile, so now I'm pretty much afraid to have sex at all because birth control failed two times. We DO have sex about once a month when I am certain that I'm not fertile (fertility awareness method), but it's not enough for him and not really enough for me either if I'm honest. But it's painful unless I "zone out" and am not fully present emotionally. Which really sucks. I'm capable of so much more.

After baby #3 I couldn�t keep it in anymore, and finally told him the truth. We�ve been in counseling with a useless MC, for whom my husband puts his best face on and who does NOTHING to challenge either one of us. I have shown my husband this sight and he thinks the POJA is impossible (because it would mean he�d have to give up the things that �give his life meaning�).

I found Alanon and MB around the same time and have been working the 12 Steps, as well as listening and learning from all the wonderful sharing on this site. I have no idea where God will lead me or the relationship I am in, and I focus on living one day at a time and cultivating gratitude. Especially gratitude for the difficulties that this marriage has. It is these difficulties which have made me face the fact that my life is unmanageable. The difficulties are what got me to personal recovery, have helped break me out of the denial I was living in, especially about my family of origin and deeply held beliefs about myself.

I am VERY grateful to this site because I am learning the skills that I believe are necessary to have a truly united marriage. I�ll admit, I struggle with some of what Harley teaches, especially about unconditional love. As a Catholic, I am taught that marriage is indissoluable for any reason, and that a pre-condition prior to marriage (even a reasonable condition such as mutual care) is grounds for annulment. There are several grounds for annulment in the case of my marriage, but I am committed to doing my part and I�m open to God�s grace to change things if that is God�s will. It was my own willfulness and denial that got me into this mess, but I woulldn't change it at all because it has brought me closer to God, and has also brought three amazing children into both my life and my husband�s life, and I am so grateful to have given him that gift and would never want to deprive him of their presence in his life.

Still, I am unbelievably lonely, although going to alanon meetings and immersing myself in the program is helping that. I�m also very involved in my church. But these two things, especially alanon, are very much seen as LBing �independent behavior� by my husband, who doesn�t see the benefit of me going to meetings and spending so much time talking to my sponsor and program friends. He liked the �old me� he married, who was insecure in her faith and VERY unhealthy in her thinking. We were incompatible to start with, and getting healthier seems to make us even more distant, although I wouldn�t give it up. I have heard too many stories of husbands who came to sobriety only after their wives had spent years in alanon and practicing their program. If there�s a chance that he will �hit bottom� and find a usefulness for a spiritual path that is compatible with mine, I owe it to him, the kids, and myself to allow him to find it and join me. Until then I am just doing my best, even when my best really sucks, because practice makes better.

I realize now that agreeing to marry my husband and stuffing my feelings for all these years is perhaps the most unloving and dishonest thing I could ever do to any human being, and I am deeply sad and remorseful. (Please, Bubbles4U, have some compassion with me, because I know you can be brutal with this sort of statement.)Still, I am where I am, living my marriage vows, him living his, the best we can. I have not gotten to the step where I examine harm, or the step where I make amends. But I know this one goes on the list, and I will let God lead me in making amends. Until then the information on this site helps me from adding more things to that list.

Thanks for listening and sharing your stories with me. I hope you will treat my story with kindness, and not just 2x4s!

I don't really want to get inot a discussion about my stich, because in alanon I have been learning not to ask for advice, but to rely on my higher power. I really am NOT asking for advice, though I know some of you will give it. I just think it is time for me to share a little bit more about myself so that you will know where I am coming from. You all have been so wonderful and courageous in sharing your stories and struglles, and I finally have courage to do the same, to the extent I can. BIG electric fence just crossed! Don't be surprised if I duck out for a few days. I sometimes "retreat" after opening up, but it's usually only temporary!

P.S. And no, I am not in a PA or EA I do have some boundaries that I won't cross.

Great post thinkingitthru...

For us, Intelligence and Cultural Background are our incompatability points.

It was very brave of you to share your story. Thank you.

He didn�t say �short lived,� he said DIFFICULT. Compatibility can be LEARNED, but some areas are much more difficult to overcome than others, which is why you find yourself here. Incompatibility can be overcome, though, if both partners can learn to follow the POJA.

Dr Harley mentioned on his radio show that before he and joyce got married he wrote an essay about his vision of the �perfect wife.� He described a woman who would be a rugged adventurist who went camping, hiking, scuba diving, hunting, etc. The woman he married was NONE OF THAT. She does not camp, she is prissy and feminine. But he LOVED doing all that. But since he loved Joyce more, he gave all that up and used the POJA to find a compatible lifestyle.

So while there may be difficult issues in learning compatibility, they can be overcome if both partners can use the POJA. You mentioned you were in Alanon. You have probably read that many alcoholics struggle with POJA, but it can be done.

TT, is your husband an active alcoholic?

ML, I'm not sure. It's only in the last few weeks that I've come to think that he could be an alcoholic, and I am working my way through VERY thick denial on my part. My sponsor uses the term "dry drunk."

My husband does NOT drink often. Maybe once or twice a year. But when he does drink, he usually gets pretty wasted. He's not a mean drunk, or even a nasty drunk. He gets a bit silly and sleeps for 2 days.

However, when he was in college (I didn't know him through his college days, though we were aquanited in high school), he says he drank a lot. But a lot of people drink a lot in college, so I never took that to mean anything before.

His dad is an alcoholic. His mom is a classic wife of an alcoholic, and she's been divorced and married several times, in and out of alcholic relationships. I believe her current husband, who is a very sweet man, is also alcoholic. Too much denial there. HER family was filled with alcoholics, as is my FIL's and step-FIL's families. Whether or not my husband is an alcoholic, he most definitely is an adult child of an alcoholic.

I have a hard time cutting through the denail, because most everyone I've ever been close to is a child of an alcoholic. In my own family, my dad is an adult child. He is also probably an alcoholic actively drinking but functioning well. On my mom's side, there are alcoholics in every generation, but her branch of the tree seems to be the "co-alcoholics" rather than the active drinkers.

The pattern runs deep for both of us.

Amazingly, believing my DH to be an alcoholic gives me more compassion for him because I can accept that it is a disease that cannot be controlled. I've been trying to control the symptoms (gaming, porn, emotional withdrawl) and my life has become unmanageable. I'm sure you can imagine without my going into detail. I am ashamed to say it, but I hate the person I am with him because I know it's not me, and I just can't seem to stop myself without major effort. That's why I "keep coming back" both here and alanon.

More later. Gotta get kids ready for school. Hope that starts to answer your question.

ML, I had mexican for lunch today and thought of you

I can see where being from an alcoholic background would make POJA difficult for both me and my spouse. Even though I am not an alcoholic, I myself struggle with POJA. That said, I desperately WANT it!!!! But there are some things I won't compromise on. My religious faith is one, my emotional well-being is another. I would very much like for my husband to join me in those areas of my life, but he is not able to do that with enthusiasm. He comes to church with me and the family, and for that I am grateful. He resents my going to alanon and asks every couple of days how long I intend to go to them. He resents that I sepnd time talking to my sponsor about the things he thinks I "should" talk to him about. I udnerstand how he feels, and I feel bad for him, because I know he feels left out. I told him that he sounds a lot like the stories I hear from spouses of alcoholics who resent AA. He said he needs "alanon-anon" I encouraged him to try alanon as well (different meetings) but he has no interest. Apparently his life is not unmanageable enough yet. I'm just grateful that he "allows" me to go to a night meeting now and then, and I try to get to daytime meetings when my schedule allows.

As for the activities HE does, I have no interest at all in getting into online video games. His best friend and his wife do that, and he thinks we should too. But I see that as part of the problem, not the solution.

I wish we could develope some new activities together. I have suggested dancing (in part because I love dancing and it is a huge turn-on for me). I love working outside in the yard, especially as the weather gets nice, but he has allergies and is a rather "sedentary" kind of guy. I'd love for us to read books together and then discuss, but he doesn't read.

Sometimes I don't think he was ever in love with "me". I think he was in love with his idea or vision of me. He has even said that he married me not because I had all the things he wanted in a spouse, but because it seemed like the direction we "should" go in, and he saw that I could "make him a better person." That's not my responsibility! I know that kind of thinking is probably not worth dwelling on. But why else would he be so resistant to POJA? I've been in love before, I know what it feels like, and it most definitely makes me want to jump through hoops for the other person's happiness (as long as I don't have to compromise my faith and basic morals).

OK, done whining now

I am sure I've left out important details, but it's hard to know what is or is not significant.

Viva la Mexicano!!


ok, TTT, this is a very confusing comment. You start off by saying you "desperately want it!!!" about POJA and then proceed to say how you adamantly REFUSE to do the things necessary to achieve that. Doesn't sound like you are too "enthusiastic" about it at all!! If I say i desperately want to go to Cleveland, but by golly, I AM NOT LEAVING TEXAS!! Then that indicates I don�t really want to go to Cleveland, I would rather stay in Texas.

And if your husband is not enthusiastic about your going to Alanon during the evenings, then why wouldn�t you go to noon meetings? That seems like a simple solution that would benefit you both.


The goal is to become each other�s FAVORITE recreational activity and replace things that only ONE of you likes to do at the expense of the marriage. For example, my H does not like it when I go to AA meetings in the evening, so I simply schedule them for the daytime. That is simple enough.

The main point, TTT, is that when you WANT to do POJA you will find a way, but as you said you are not willing to do the things necessary to achieve that. There is a lot of independent behavior going in your marriage and if you want to improve your marriage and become compatible, a better solution is INTERDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR.


I suspect he is probably not in love with you either given the comments above. But, that can always change!

check out this one, TTT: Having Trouble with the
Policy of Joint Agreement?

IB is definitely a problem on both sides. I'm getting better, but I'm by no means perfect at it. And I do go to daytime meetings . . . there's only one night meeting and my husband seems to be OK with me going out one night a week.

I can see where my statement would be confusing. I want POJA. But my relgious faith IS more important than my marriage. It is the most important thing in my life. My relationship with God trumps my relationship with God, because putting anything else first is idolatry. That said, I very much find my marriage "within" my relationship with God. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I struggle with MB concepts because my faith teaches me to rely on God to meet my needs, not another human being. God may meet my needs through my marriage if my spouse is open to that. If my spouse is not open or unwilling (which is sometimes the case), I pray about it and accept that God gives me everything I need, even if it's not everything I want. He also does not do for me what I can do for myself, and this is where I see MB helping me a great deal. I know I have to do my part, and even if I do it haltingly, I am doing it.

Gotta run, dinner time.

TTT, the needs we discuss in the context of Marriage Builders are to create ROMANTIC LOVE. We are not talking about "needs" in the sense that we need air, water, food, shelter. But needs that when met would create ROMANTIC LOVE in a marriage. You are not trying to create a romantic, sexual relationship with GOD. The goal of Marriage Builders is to create a romantic, productive MARRIAGE, not to replace God.

So yes, we do depend on God and we sure don�t put our marriage before God. Did you look really close at the Marriage Builders logo?

GRR!!!!!

I just typed out a long post that didn't make it!

Actually, I do think that God meets my EN too, through other people like family, friends, and yes, even my spouse That is what I meant by saying that I find my marriage within my relationship with God. I do a lot of IB in my relationship with God, too . . . big surprise, huh? Good thing his love is unconditional!

I have been thinking about what you said:


I think you are right. I am probably making a big mistake in pointing to our main difference (religion) and making that the reason why I would reject the whole idea of POJA. I'm not really doing that, but I can definitely see my thiknig that way from time to time.

The better approach would be to try POJA on smaller issues, have mutually satisfying experiences with it, and build on the foundation of success until we are able to deal the bigger issues. Until then, just accept that we do have some differences, that it's okay, because if we were exactly the same then one of us would be unneccesary

I do have a question for you ML. When you and your DH were in the early stages of MB recovery, how did you deal with protecting yourself from your DH's LB?

I know you have posted a lot about the value of criticism, and the value of being radically honest. This is definitely a new belief for me (my mom is a VERY critical person and I vowed never to do to my husband what she did, and I threw the baby out with the bath water!). I am practicing it with as much kindness and grace as I can, although I know sometimes my criticisms are really just masking my desire to pick a fight. I do that less and less, though, and apologize quickly.

Anyway, even when I share my crticisms in the form of a "problem" for us to solve "jointly" through a calm negotiation rehearsed with my sponsor first, it still doesn't necessarily stop the IB. Other than knowing that I did my part, is there anything else that you have done to protect yourself from the LB behavior if you've ever run into this challenge in your own marriage back when it was harder work?

A great example of this is the gaming. I've made my position known (granted, it was pre-MB and probably done in a way that was somewhat, OK, very disrespectful!). Still, the complaint was lodged, and he knows how I feel. He spends most of his gaming time when I'm in bed, but it keeps him up very late at night, which means he wakes up very late in the morning, at a time when I could really use the company while tending the children. Frankly, I'm lonely in the morning. He's very aware of the problem and how it is affecting me, and he even says he's sorry, but that he just can't change his sleeping habits. The time that is most lonely for me is the weekends, because it's out of the normal school morning routine and he tends to sleep even later because he's not getting up for work.

I really want to lead by example. I also really DON'T want to be self-righteous about it. And given that he's reluctant to change, I know it will take time as I begin to put everything into practice. Have you ever found yourself in this sort of struggle, and if so, what did you do?

Exactly! That is how Dr Harley taught us how to do it in his lessons. We started small and then branched out eventually to the big things. He suggested learning to POJA in the grocery store. Nothing goes in the basket until both are ENTHUSIASTIC about that item.

Our first attempts were a disaster, but once we got that down, it became easier and easier. We applied those skills to all other areas of our lives. Here is how bad our first attempts were in this post to Dr Harley over on the MB weekend forum [keep in mind I was the IB QUEEN!:

Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and DH scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable.

Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well!

MEL: does a salad sound good to you for dinner?
DH: that's fine
We approach the produce section and DH picks up a head of lettuce
MEL: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce
DH: says nothing
MEL: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce
DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!!
MEL, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99
DH follows her and says again: "MEL, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!"

I take the salad dressing I am carrying, drop it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone."

We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package.

Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce.

Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest?

The greatest motivator for change in my marriage has been to be radically honest with my H about his lovebusters. I lovingly, but firmly told him that his behavior was causing me to fall out of love.

But here is the kicker. It mattered to him because he was IN LOVE WITH ME. And why was he in love with me? Because I had been meeting his needs, avoiding lovebusters and most importantly, spending 15+ hours of Undivided Attention with him a week. He was not detached when I told him this so he was more than willing to make changes.

Dr Harley's response to my post:

MelodyLane: There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts.

The trigger for your husband's angry outburst is your independent behavior. It's the reason for his angry outburst, but it's no excuse. Your husband should attend anger management training until he can control his anger under all circumstances, regardless of how frustrating they may be to him. My position on this issue is repeated throughout my books, articles and radio show. Anger solves no problems -- they create new ones.

But even if your husband had controlled his temper, your purchase of salad should have followed the conditions of the POJA. After rejecting the head of lettuce, you should have asked him how he felt about buying Romaine lettuce, and if he felt it was too expensive, you should have tried to negotiate with him regarding alternatives. Once you reach an enthusiastic agreement regarding the type of lettuce you use in your salad, and the price you pay for it, that agreement will probably stand in future purchases.

Your husband should learn to avoid angry outbursts under all conditions, even when you violate the POJA. But you should also work toward asking him how he feels about the decisions you make before you make them. I understand that you may feel you did ask him, but you should not take his silence as an answer. Look for enthusiasm.

As to whether or not you can afford Romaine lettuce, from my perspective it's an irrelevant issue. The fact that your husband doesn't want to pay that much for lettuce is reason enough to put the purchase on hold until you can arrive at an enthusiastic agreement. His reasons are largely emotional, but even so, they should be factored into every final decision. The harder you try to find a mutually enthusiastic agreement, the better you will get at it. And as in the case of finding a salad combination that meets both of your quality and price sensitivities, every enthusiastic agreement will form the basis for future decisions that help you grow in compatibility.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Top

I'm feeling a lot better about my marriage. Thanks for sharing LOL

I definitely see the value of being "in love" before pointing out the "problems." So does Harley suggest avoiding pointing out LB to a withdrawn spouse? In the mean time, does he offer any suggestions for protecting oneself from LB behavior while doing Plan A?

I'm not sure why this cracks me up so much! Mutually agreeable salad combinations! Does your DH enthusiastically eat Romaine now?

Wow...

My DH has exhibitted behavior like this in public very infrequently. I mean I think it has happened 2 or 3 times for the 12 years we've known each other. BUT what he has done was make ugly faces at me in public to show that he was displeased about something I said or did. Without knowing anything about MB or LBs, I told him how it made me feel and asked him to stop. He explained that his folks did not mind having arguments & things like that in public, but stop he did.

How did your DH break the AO habit? That is definitely one of my husband's issues, especially with the kids, which is painful to watch. He also has issues with this at work. He's been in counseling in the past, but it didn't help long-term. It goes in spurts. He may go for a few weeks being very copacetic, then have several weeks of major irritablity that he isn't even aware of, even when it's pointed out (gently of course!)

I seem to recall your DH going to anger management classes after all. Is that correct? If so, was it just fear of divorce that motivated him, or something else? Did he even recognize he had an anger problem?

My DH is very good at justifying his anger. I actually attempted to address the issue this evening because it was going on. He was upset at the way one of the kids at school is treating our son, and the angry tone of voice was actually VERY intimidating to our son (6) who thought dad was berating HIM. I told him that I didn't think there was anything wrong with him feeling angry, and that he has good reason, but that when he expresses that anger in the way he was reacting, that I react by feeling very fearful. I told him that I accept that my fear (just like his anger) is out of my control and do my best not to act on the feeling, just let it pass. But that I just wanted him to know what goes on inside me when I see him get angry that way. He told me to "drop it," so I did, sort of.

Later in the evening, I willingly listened to him vent about frustrations at work, didn't comment or offer advice, but said that it sounded like he had a very frustrating day. A little while later, I remembered that I'm expecting AF in a few days and that perhaps this evening we could spend a little "one on one" time together in bed after kids were down, thinking he might enjoy the stress relief. He said he wasn't in the mood. I admit, I'm a little disappointed, because I don't often initiate, and I was feeling very good about making the offer. But I also wasn't surprised either, given the tone of the evening. So I have decided to offer at a time when he's in a better mood and see if that makes a difference.

What do you mean by protecting yourself? CAn you be more specific? What I focused on mainly, was protecting my husband from MY lovebusters.

My husband has not had an ANGRY OUTBURST since the day Dr Harley wrote that post to him. Dr Harley basically told him to KNOCK IT OFF! End of story. End of angry outbursts.

Having an argument in public is one thing, acting disrespectful and childish during said argument is another. That's pretty neat that he stopped though.

My H wrote this to Dr Harley that day:

I definitely see the value of protecting my husband from my LB. In fact, I think at this stage in the game that is way more important than protecting myself.

But let's talk about me for a moment.

My husband's LB drain MY Love Bank, right? Not only does that drain my Love Bank, it does so at a rate that is much faster than just meeting EN can replace. And he's not a pro at that either, as a withdrawn spouse.

If I'm waiting until he is less withdrawn to share my constructive criticism, how do I prevent his LB behaviors from draining my Love Bank while I am in Plan A trying to meet his EN and stopping my own LB behavior?

Does that make more sense?

do y'all see where my Independent Behavior and disrespectful judgments set him off? I used to actually call his interests "micky mouse." [he is so tight he squeaks when he walks! ] Talk about disrespectful! He is a compulsive saver and ratholer and about every other year I would go pick out a new car and call him from the dealership "hey honey, guess what I bought!" He would go crazy and I would always be so puzzled about that.

Your posts confirm for me the great power behind "making a decision."

I recently listened to a CD about anger that I got from my church that was fantastic. And the main point was, if you want to control "sinful anger," make a decision to NOT GO THERE.

This year I too made a decision. To floss my teeth. It's a silly thing, but I was never able to make it a habit until I made the decision. Now, I sometimes skip. But most days I floss. All because I made a decision. Making small decisions like these are HUGE practice for me in learning how to make big decisions. Again, I hope I can lead by example . . . one of my DH's LB is his breath I have no idea how to approach this without embarrasing him.

ok, I wouldn't wait at all! I would start talking about it now. Do it in a respectful manner making sure he understands your goal is to be in love with him. And be sure and stop your own lovebusters.

One way to do this is to tell him you are working on your own annoying behavior and ask him to take the LB questionaire. Take one for him and then exchange them.

See, this is something you could put on your lovebusters questionaire and he could READ it.

Again, feeling much better

Actually, I can relate to that though. Two months into marriage I was in a car accident that totalled my car. I had to buy a new one, and it was the first time I'd ever done that. My DH buys cars for the sticker price without doing research because he avoids conflict (unless he gets uncontrollably angry!). My dad is a pro at negotiating and loves buying cars. Guess who I took car shopping? Now to be fair, my DH wanted nothing to do with the whole thing, so it wasn't without his blessing. But it still did short term damage to my already shaky marriage. Looking back I see this as a very significant "turning point" in the wrong direction. On the other hand, I can also look back now and learn a LOT from what I did wrong.

Last year we bought a new minivan. This time, DH still delegated the task to me. But it was ME who took responsibility for the research, me who did the negotiating, me who planned the test drives. On one hand, part of me would have loved to be married to a "man's man" who could have done all those things. But I accept that my husband is who he is, and he is a "man's man" in other ways.On the other, I was VERY grateful for the opportunity to do those things for my family, but also for myself, because it was very empowering to fly solo, without my dad looking over my shoulder. And it definitely did not seem to step on DH's toes, because he is not a negotiating person at all. WAY out of his comfort zone.

Gotcha!

thinkin, thanks for sharing your story, wow! I had a hard time for quite a while finding a balance between my Alanon program and MB Concepts. It got easier as I understood them better. But in POJA I often mistakenly thought I needed to "do nothing," when that wasn't the case. I brought up as an example when my then 7 year old daughter had ringworm, and H told me I couldn't take her to the doctor, and I did anyway. I misunderstood POJA and thought I was harming my marriage, causing resentment, but I was mistaken. I no longer think that kind of thing is going against POJA. I am making the best decision I can for my family until a time when my H and I can discuss the options respectfully.

THANKS!!! You have no idea how affirming it is to hear this. I often feel as though the two programs are sometimes opposing, and right now my alanon takes precedence. But I keep coming back to both places, because I know how thick I can be.

I think the main thing alanon has given me right now is "permission" to screw up. My sponsor says that if I can't do "the next right thing" then just do the next wrong thing as long as it's something different. Well, MB is definitely different, and if I mess up at either program, there's always tomorrow to do better. I'm a perfectionist, so this is definitely new thinking for me, but it makes living a lot less scary

Full Article Here<<<

Touched on this on another thread and wanted to be sure you had read this.

Interesting article Mark. Thanks for sharing it with me, because I did miss it.

It seems that Harley addresses motivation in the case of both spouses attempting MB principles, rather than just one. I'm not sure how that would change the game. Doesn't matter though. That's discussing the problem and not the solution

Think,

I think that Dr Harley is merely discussing motivation in what I quoted. Whether one person is motivating the other or each is motivating his or her spouse to do what will lead to better marriage is not the point.

MR1, is the best motivation to change behavior that there is. The action itself becomes the reward for changing the behavior.(This is the most likely way to get a wife who is reluctant to have sex on board with having sex...Make it so she looks forward to it because she enjoys it so much and she is more likely to want to do it). This is why RC time is so important as part of UA time along with the other IENs. The time is so enjoyable that we want to do it all the time.

This was part of what I did in Plan A that I think so many (especially men) seem to miss the boat on. I didn't spend all of my time trying to convince my wife to stay. I didn't browbeat her about the affair and I didn't work at educating her about what a dolt OM was. Instead I made a nice dinner, finished her laundry for her, washed the dishes after she went to bed, took our granddaughter on walks in the park and invited my wife to join us.

Yeah, I was dying inside, wanting to scream at her, beat the hell out of her and go find OM and ensure that his death was slow and agonizing. But I didn't do any of those things; well, after I figured out that I was defeating my own objective by doing those kind of things my actions changed. That was after I found MB and began to read, got SAA from the library and read it in one night...Before then, I was convinced that I should find a way to explain to her why staying married was better than leaving me for some dirt bag who had just had his wife leave him because he was a serial adulterer. I was sure that if I could show her how wrong she was that she would fix herself.

When I started to make our time together the most enjoyable part of her day, even more enjoyable than talking on the phone to OM, that was when she began to consider me as being a better choice. The time she was with me became something she didn't want to be without because being with me was something that made her happy and feel good about herself. (It also allowed me to monopolize her time giving her less and less time to communicate with OM.)

MR2 is pretty powerful as well when it comes to motivation, but not quite as good. In MR2 we derive our reward AFTER we have performed the required action. It is like going to work and earning a living, maybe even a good living, but unless you really enjoy the work itself, then sometimes no amount of money is sufficient to keep you going day after day to a place you hate to be. I enjoy the things I do for free to help other people a lot more than I enjoy my job though I really only get the reward of knowing that I was able to help others from it. Believe me, there is no monetary reward in running a not-for-profit organization or trying to help couples make their marriage better or meeting for 4 hours to discuss how to tell a staff member at the church that he won't be getting a raise. Yet I would love to be able to spend all of my time doing those things instead of working for a paycheck. That is because the activity itself is the reward as opposed to the check I get in exchange for working.

MR3 is a pretty poor motivator unless you are holding someone captive while you attempt to break their ability to identify what is real. (brainwashing) It is especially poor at motivating a reluctant spouse to engage in improvement of the marriage. By making the marital relationship less comfortable it actually causes him or her to withdraw further instead of convincing them to make the changes you want to see happen. Yet this is the way our Taker tries to handle conflict. We demand change, then we try to coerce change (if you loved me you would___) and finally we punish our spouse with our angry outburst. If we really want to hurt them, we just do whatever we want and then chastise them for being so hurt by our thoughtlessness. If we make pain a way of life our spouse is likely to just walk away.

UA time works to create MR1 for both husband and wife. It lets both get specific ENs met consistently and soon the time spent together becomes the most enjoyable time in their lives. My wife and I would rather go shopping together than do almost anything alone these days, but not because I enjoy shopping so much, it is because we enjoy being together more than we enjoy being apart.

It didn't happen overnight though. We began, remember, with her wanting to get away from me to be with OM. At first she wanted to be almost anywhere but by my side. And to be honest, spending time with her made me feel sick most of the time. I fought guilt at first because I wanted to smash her face in a few times. Our life genuinely sucked at that point.

But as we started doing things that we both found enjoyable, at first maybe a half hour walk with our granddaughter or the dog, and added additional activities like taking our cameras along, and then added working on the pictures on the PC when we got home and printing them, matting them and hanging them on the wall...Before long we were both ready to takes a walk the minute we were both home. We talked, we held hands when she'd allow it, I held the car door for her if we drove somewhere to walk, I packed a picnic lunch and that would let us stay out longer...It was all pretty calculated and yet as we did it more and more and began to include more activities than just walking around the block, we both began to enjoy our time enough that spending time together was effortless.

MR2 works for long term goals that require short term sacrifice. I might skip lunch for example in order to spend money on something that I really want to buy. But it can also apply to putting my outside activities on hold in order to care for my wife if she gets sick. It is also how a BS can do a Plan A for a while and is also the way you have to approach Dr Harley's answer to the question "Can one spouse save a marriage?" You delay gratification and fulfillment of your own needs while attempting to provide the motivation to meet your needs by meeting your spouse's needs in the absence of getting your own needs met...I think I said that sideways, but I think you get what I mean.

The first motivation to attempt in getting someone to make a change they are reluctant to do is MR!. Try to find a way to make the change itself enjoyable. If that fails, the a reward for performance might do the trick, as in, you scratch my back and I'll scratch your...whatever needs scratching at the moment...

But once these two have failed, then consequences become the big motivator for some. If failure to change results in enough loss or just fear of significant loss, then sometimes the pain is enough to get me to change my behavior. This is why Plan A has to precede Plan B, BTW and why you have to meet his ENs for a while and avoid Love Busters for a while before swinging the stick of the process to take it all away unless he changes.

Step 1) Make yourself irresistible by meeting his IENs of RC and SF. (throw in a bit Admiration, DS, physical attractiveness)[MR1]
Step 2) Make yourself even more desirable by making only Love Bank deposits instead of withdrawals by eliminating Love Busters.[MR1]
Step 3) Reward him any time he does something you want him to do but avoid punishing him for doing things wrong.[MR2]
Step 4) [Only required if he isn't changing yet] Stop doing step 1 and 3 and explain that unless he gets with the program, he will lose the benefits of the new and improved you.[MR3]

If after you do this stuff he isn't willing to do what you need, then you might have to face the fact that he is not going to change and then you have to decide if staying is still an option.

But first try these four things, 1 and 2 for a couple months or even longer if you can. Throw in a bit of #3 at times for good measure. Use step 4 if he is showing no progress at all.


Mark

This is an EXCELLENT post on motivation, and on the nuts and bolts of the MB program. Again you explain it even better than Harley does! You should save it and copy it whenever there is a hardhead like me around

That said, I'm going to have to let this sink in. On one hand it looks like a nearly foolproof strategy. On the other hand, I can't get beyond the idea that "motivation" looks an awful lot like "manipulation," even if the end goal is a worthy one. I personally do not believe the end justifies the means. So I think my meditation on this will have to get me beyond that way of thinking. Doesn't mean I won't practice MR1 and MR2 as the opportunities arise. Just means I need to do motive checks a lot . . . am I doing this for me, or am I doing it to control another person? If answer A, not manipulation. If answer B, probably manipulation.

I do think I can figure out how my husband would react to this, based on his actions for the last 10 days or so. I have been working VERY hard at elminating LB and meeting EN in the limited UA we do have right now. I have avoided a LOT of potential trainwrecks that would have happened very easily just a month ago. And I'm really happy with myself. And he's noticed. And he is extremely suspicious. He thinks I am faking it.

I am most definitely NOT faking the actions; I'm choosing the actions I can live with long term. But in some ways he is right; my feelings are not there yet. (I haven't told him this.) I think he and I are both sort of "black and white" in our thinking. There is only intimacy and withdrawl, no middle ground. I think that is because we both avoid conflict, and neither one of us really wants to go there; we'd rather be in withdrawl! I guess for me withdrawl has become more painful than my fear of conflict, so there I am (MR3, right?)

The fact that I'm in the "conflict" state, but apparently "happy" to use his words, makes him think that I am faking it. It's what he grew up with, and what he dated . . . people who "pretended" to be happy or upset to get what they want. Anything that looks like that is a huge trigger for him. So I am gearing myself up for a rather LONG plan A, because it will take a lot of time for him to believe that I am not faking it.

But he's right on one hand. I'm not doing it for him right now. I'm doing it for me. I love the phrase "Don't do be the source of your spouse's unhappiness." I'm there 100%, but not because I am in love with him, but because being the source of my spouse's unhappiness is not acceptable behavior any more.

Great post Mark!

Good luck Thinking

Think,

It isn't manipulation. It's how you two fell in love with each other to begin with.

Your intent right now is not to fake it. But really, you are faking it till you make it since that is what you must do in order to change things that have become habits and certainly what is required in order to overcome the instinctive self serving parts.

The question isn't even if you believe you will continue but whether or not you can keep going in order to establish new habits that can replace the old ones.

So now you must deal with MR1, MR2 and maybe even MR3 in your own walk through this mess and you need to provide your own motivation to keep doing the things you are doing until you begin to get a payoff on the other end and even beyond that point so as to create new habits that will last a lifetime.

How you handle conflict will be the make or break point, I think, Think. Conflict is NOT a bad thing. Conflict is how we adjust, adapt, learn to meet our spouse's needs as they change over time. Conflict is not the problem for a couple in love. How that conflict is resolved is not even so important, it is how we attempt to go about resolving it that matters most.

Conflict resolution deals with several parts of MB at once. It requires continuing to meet his ENs even when your expectations have gone unmet. Unmet expectations cause us as much sorrow as unmet ENs, IMO. We do something expecting a certain result and when we don't get it, we feel cheated. What makes it worse is we keep doing the same things over and over again still expecting different results than we got the first time and fall into the trap explained by Einstein.

It requires a steady focus on avoiding Love Busters since the negotiating tools of our Taker are SDs, DJs and AOs followed by doing what we want to do in spite of it making our spouse unhappy (IB).

It requires complete honesty because if we withhold anything from the negotiations it lessens the likelihood of getting what will make us happy and keep us from finding the solution that makes both of us happy. Honesty to express our expectations so that input from our spouse can adjust our methodology instead of repeating the same errors time after time.

It requires that we follow POJA to the letter but also in spirit. By that I mean that we have to be certain that WE are actively seeking solutions that fulfill POJA and not just trying to outsmart our spouse or out wait him/her. POJA is not a labor of attrition where we exhaust an opponent into submission by using the stuff our Taker always has at hand.(SDs, DJs and AOs)

The one piece of POJA that must always be in the front of your mind is that still being in love at the end of the day is more important than having a new car (or dress, or shoes, or paint, or restaurant or...)

Making POJA work requires a change from both sides in the way conflict is addressed. It means coming to realize that there are many possible answers to our problem and the right one is not the one we conceived at the start but the one that makes both of us happy at the same time. It isn't your way or his way. It isn't something between your way and his either since compromise would make you both unhappy. The POJA solution is the yet not thought of way of resolving the problem that when found makes you love each other even more and avoids either of you gaining at the other's expense emotionally or otherwise.

As for continuing the choices you have made on your own, the tricky part will be to continue doing those things long enough for them to become habits and for that you will have to provide much of your own motivation. Yet you will get glimpses of MR2 when your husband responds to the new you and you will also start to find those MR1 types of things that will stimulate you to keep doing things simply because you enjoy them. The difficulty will come from having to make certain that what you are repeating out of habit is in fact something that reinforces romantic love and not something that detracts from it. Hopefully before you reach that point, your husband will be enough into the change that he will begin to provide you with the right kind of feed back to keep up the efforts.


Regarding manipulation" If you went to a car dealer to buy a car and the salesman closed the sale, would you say that your were manipulated? You got a car and that was what you went there for.

A salesman has a job to do. If his company hopes to remain in business for very long it does not entail making people unhappy with what they bought. So a car salesman has to determine what is going to make you happy based on what you tell him (once you get past the "Just looking" stage) and then find the one thing that will make you commit to the change he needs from you in order to make his living.

There are guys out there that will try to sell you the SUV instead of the econobox for commuting to work, but realize that if he is able to sell you the SUV it is because he found something in you that the SUV spoke to more strongly than the econobox. Most people leave the showroom with a new car happy about the purchase. They only begin to have questions later when maintenance issues come along. When the newness starts to wear off and we are tired of changing the oil, replacing tires, fixing the brakes, washing it and waxing it, which were all things we did when it was new, that is when we begin to feel cheated because we expected the newness to remain forever and of course, the newness wears off pretty fast and the reality of having to maintain what we purchased sets in. It is also where we have to start making our own adjustments to the quirks and shortcomings of the vehicle we purchased.

The difference is that when we get tired of dealing with our old car, no matter whether it is ten years or ten months old, we just go back to where we got it and replace it.

Manipulation would be if we went to buy a new car and ended up buying a new television instead. Of course we have to first be certain that we are at the car store and not the television store. But it is dishonesty that is manipulation not honesty. Manipulation is when we offer something that is not real. I manipulate a bass into striking at my lure so I can drag him from his home and into my boat for my own enjoyment. But when I show Care and Protection to my wife, I am not manipulating her but doing what I should have been doing all along.

Sometimes it helps to look at this from that POV, BTW. Care, Protection, Time and Honesty are what we are all about around here. All the rest are techniques for doing those things. Care, Protection, Honesty and Time are all things we promised each other when we got married and usually we gave them at first. But as the newness wore off and we found that we had to keep feeding these things to the relationship since we didn't have the coping skills to adapt to each other we began to get frustrated because our expectations went unmet.

And then we began to compare what we had to the new one we once had, or even worse, the new one someone else has...

If I sell my customers what they need, even if it means not getting what they think they want, they are ultimately happier and more likely to do business with me later. I don't have to call on my best customers. They call me to place an order without me having to dial the phone. It is because they are happy over time with what they get from me even though I will tell them when what they want is not reasonable at the time they are wanting it.

We get unhappy with the old and expect everything to remain new, but sometimes things need to be maintained in order to remain fit for use. A marriage is one of those things. In fact, a properly maintained marriage can outperform a new one almost every single time when it comes to happiness of the partners.

Mark

Is the utilization of MB principals to "motivate" really "manipulation"?

Manipulation- defintion (courtesy of m-w.com)


According to the definition above, manipulation doesn't have to be negative. There are parts of the definition which focus on the skillful art of handling, mananging, or operating. But I realize that when most of us think about manipulation, we think of it in terms of the negative parts of the definintion.

I highlighted the key words on the negative parts because I wanted to underscore the idea that manipulation, as seen by most people, is "unfair" and "insidious". When we use MB prinicpals to improve the quality of our interactions with our spouse - to eliminate LBs and meet ENs on both sides we are not "manipulating" because we are not using "unfair" tactics for "insidious" purposes. Yes - we hope to get what we want (a better marriage). That want does not make our actions manipulative.

The manipulation (the negative def) was what we were doing before we knew better ...with the LB behavior: AO, DJ, SD etc...

Just my $.06

Actually, the word manipulation would accurately characterize what was going on when we �fell in love� the first time, if one can even call it that. I was never honest with myself or with him even when we were dating. Not that I was actively lying. I was just not being honest about my likes and dislikes because I thought that to have likes and dislikes was being superficial and selfish. I would �go along� because I wanted a relationship, ANY relationship. Eventually I�d blow up and then he would make a few changes to try to �keep� me, and instead of holding fast to my boundaries, I stayed even when they were crossed. There was manipulation going on from both sides of the relationship, just to keep it from ending.

I realize that I�m �reacting� to that term �manipulation.� I think that�s because I would define manipulation as �attempting to force an outcome.�

Here are some other definitions of �manipulate� found at dictionary.com


I think the last one is what strikes me the most. Changing someone to suit my purpose, or changing myself to suit someone else�s purpose.

Or, changing myself to motivate someone to change themselves to suit my purpose.

I know we are talking about the �ends� being romantic love, but as I said, I do not believe the ends justifies the means if we are talking about attempting to force an outcome to my own or someone else�s advantage.

What makes it NOT manipulation is that in marriage, it is assumed that both parties have a shared purpose, as well as mutual advantage.

Yep - Dishonesty (a big LB)...like I said before, LBs are attempts at manipulation

Anyway...if you both have the same purpose - to keep the relationship alive - what's the harm in adapting new behviors and ways of thinking so that it works out?

As I said above, the word "manipulation" (mostly) implies deliberate evil intent. It implies that we are fooling someone or duping them. MB is about loving with honesty & truth.

Darn it - What's the word for deliberate good intent?

"Deliberate good intent" . . . . hmmmm

The only thing I can think of is "that which paves the road to Hell."

Is "keeping the relationship alive" a suitable purpose, a proper end goal? Don't get me wrong, I think keeping the relationship alive is a good thing! I just see it as more of a necessity to meeting an even greater end goal of spiritual and emotional intimacy through mutual self-discovery to become the best versions of ourselves.

(Yes, I do write mission statements for a living!)

For me, keeping the relationship alive is not enough. Even romantic love is not enough. They are just mileposts on a greater journey. He wants to get to those mileposts of "staying together" and maybe even "romatic love" but that is enough for him. He's said so. He is happy to let me go off on my little journey of self-discovery, as long as HE doesn't have to change as a result.

If he doesn't want to "go all the way," then I need to decide whether to journey to those mileposts or not. On the other hand, I will never get "all the way" with him if I don't go to those mileposts first. Maybe he will want to go forward when we get there. I won't know until I get there. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

As I take these steps, I must motivate myself, not rely on him for motivation. I can encourage him to join me. I can use MR2 to reward him for the times he chooses to come with me. But eventually, he will need to motivate himself to go on the journey, just as I am doing.

I feel that this is negative.

I'll step back and see how this discussion works out.

Think,

You keep coming up with reasons to avoid going all in, but only by going all or nothing can you really give the 100% effort.

MB can offer you both a marriage that is fully alive, not just barely breathing and on life support, but on that is growing, getting better, getting to be deeper and more fulfilling with time. So when we talk about saving a marriage we aren't talking about keeping the same old crap flowing day after day, we're talking about a paradigm shift that blows the old way of thinking about marriage to bits.

Mark

No, just the snarky side of my sense of humor. I'm just being difficult

You're right Mark. I am stuck in "if he won't, then I won't." I am trying to fight this mentality, but I haven't fully beaten it yet, so I'm just practicing the best I can, which I fully know is not "good enough" but is better than what I had been doing.

I think I need a little break from the forum for a while. To much focus on the problem, not living and practicing the solution. Kinda cuts into the potential for UA time too

I'll be back in a few days to check in. Best to all as I "fly blind" for a few days!

Had a nice couple of forum free days over the weekend, and it's nice to be back today!

I posted over on one of Chris's threads (how many you got girl?) that I'd give a little update about finding an IC myself.

Another piece of Think's puzzle:

I have an eating disorder.

It's not anorexia in the traditional sense of dieting, exercising, vomitimg. I don't do any of those things. And I don't think I'm fat. I need about 5-10 more pounds on me and I see it. But I do starve myself or undereat for many various reasons which I only became aware of in the last 2 months. I've gotten help from a nutritionist this month and have the name of an IC that my sponsor gave me who is very well versed in 12 step recovery, so I expect she will be more of the "2x4" type counselor rather than the "tell me about your father" type

I'm lucky because the two other IC's I had were very good. One was a 2x4 type, the other was a very "mothering" figure and was a good one for when I was single and trying to navigate some of my less than stellar behavior and consequences. Oh to be 23 again! HA!

Anyway, thought I'd share (for Chris more than anyone, since she and I came in here around the same time).

On the marriage front, my husband is doing a lot more AO, not aimed at me specifically, but definitely venting to me and putting me in a position to enforce boundaries. I find it very hard to find that line between enforcing a boundary and meeting an EN or committing an LB. I think I'm doing pretty good, but it is hard because I have to choose my words and actions so carefully and it feels forced. That's not to say it doesn't feel genuine at the same time. I am genuinely glad that I am choosing instead of reacting. It's just not something I'm used to.

If I were to fully do Plan A (no half measures on my part, no holds barred) with my reluctant husband, how long does it last theoritically? I saw someone post about 6 weeks, and saw somewhere else 6 months. Which is it? (OK, I know that there is also my own discretion too, just wondering what the guidelines are.)

LOL Thinking, I do have a few. The main one is where I first joined & I received the shock of my spouse planning a divorce, but that's over for me now.

I have the recent one where I had a mini mental meltdown, and the others are specific questions about MB principles & the MB Home Study Course. I also revewed a book written by an MB "competitor" plus I asked LA how she got so smart & Still Standing why she keeps telling people to get a divorce. I also have one where I ask about applying MB to active duty military marriages & one where I gave some feedback in the appropriate area about something I felt was mising from the site's newsletters & books.

I read Plan A for a woman is 4 - 6 weeks and for a man it's ~ 6 months. I recall reading is that the danger of doing Plan A too long is the risk of the person doing the plan of losing their love for their spouse.

I feel your pain on the AO-boundary thing.

Also, w/re to your eating issue - glad to see you're taking care of you.

A month? Really? I don't think a month of being the perfect spouse would be enough to convince my husband that it's "real."

Mark, what's your take? I know your perspective seems to be that people don't give MB enough time to work, and your own story definitely shows how patience, perseverence and longsuffering are sometimes required to go the distance. Then again, you are a man, so maybe that makes a difference.

Keep in mind that "Plan A" is really specific to an affair and how to deal with that set of conditions. The reason for the short Plan A is that there is NOTHING coming back in most cases and all effort is purely one sided, not just symbolically, but actually only one spouse giving anything at all.

In addition, in an affair, the Love Bank of the faithful spouse is being repeatedly hit hard by the disrespect, the fog-talk and the other actions that people involved in an affair seem to impose on anyone with whom they have contact.

In order to preserve any Love Bank balance the WS might have in the BS's Love Bank, Plan A must be short in order to prevent all remnants of love from draining away.

So Plan A for someone fighting an affair is about learning to meet ENs, identifying Love Busters and learning to eliminate them and trying to lure back a spouse who is more than halfway out the door.

But that isn't the case with a couple who is simply trying to improve a marriage, even one where one spouse doesn't participate in "Marriage Builders" programs. In this case, most couples are like most other couples who have never heard of Marriage Builders. They can be a lot better by following the program, but life isn't really awful, impossible to keep living the way it is or dangerous to remain married to each other.

So while the attempt to draw a withdrawn spouse back from the brink of oblivion by putting our own Taker on hold while making a concentrated effort to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters, we aren't really talking about the same type of dynamic as Plan A. The spouse normally isn't trying to destroy the relationship while you are trying to improve it. You are usually even getting something in return, even though it might not be enough or even exactly what you would like to get back from a spouse.

So when we talk about Plan A being 3 to 6 weeks long for women or as long as 6 months for men, we are really talking about a situation where you are not just putting your Taker on hold but also taking huge daily hits against your Love Bank and the stress of holding your tongue, walking on eggshells, and constantly being hurt on purpose by the person you are trying to show your best to can cause so many emotional and health related problems that it is very hard to do even for a few days.

But for a marriage in crisis, due to one or both having slipped into Conflict or even one into Withdrawal, what is happening though similar to Plan A is not really the same kind of thing. And I will say what I keep saying; in most cases where a person's spouse does not respond, there is likely some other factor that is being missed or ignored since if we meet our spouse's ENs and avoid all Love Busters, our balance in their Love Bank should increase rapidly to exceed the romantic threshold. If it does NOT do that then something is missing from the equation somewhere on either the EN side or the Love Buster side.

However, there is one more dynamic at work in many of the relationships that can make improving the marriage unilaterally impossible. That is a spouse who is happy with the way things are and does not desire to change anything. Maybe "happy" isn't the correct word since I think it has more to do with payoff for continuing like things are rather than attempting to chnage the overall dynamic in the marriage.

This, I think, is most often seen in men who are only too happy to allow their wives to become Stepford wives, meeting every need, being perfect in looks, actions, support for her man etc. These guys have no reason to change a thing. They do in fact have the perfect marriage, at least from their side of the fence it is perfect. The fact that their wife is unhappy doesn't count for much with them and they will just keep doing what they have been doing all along and as long as the wife keeps doing her best to make him happy, he has no reason on Earth to change a damned thing.

This is where Townsend and Cloud et al come into play. Making the problem HIS problem is the only real solution. As long as you keep making his life better and allowing nothing in return, he is perfectly happy with the way things are.

Here's the difficulty in making something happen...

You have two basic options: 1) Stop doing anything for him and see if he can be brought to a place of being willing to negotiate fairly to find a solution to YOUR problem by taking on HIS problem. 2) Keep meeting his ENs and avoiding Love Busters but try to find another way to get him to realize "We have a problem..."

Meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters is not just a part of Plan A. It is in fact what makes a MB marriage what it is. Once we learn to meet our spouse's ENs and get control over ourselves and learn to stop love busting behavior, learn to work POJA, include PORH and find a way to make UA time a priority in our busy lives, that is the way we live for the rest of the time we are together, ideally, until one of us dies. Meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters NEVER stops in a MB marriage.

But when you have a spouse who will not get on board, has no desire to fix anything because from their side nothing is broken and doesn't care if you are happy or not as long as they are happy, just meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters will not get them to want to change. Turning it into an adversarial situation probably won't help much either, since while you will be able to stop meeting his ENs and not worry any longer about Love Busters, this position is not likely to lead to a good marriage.

And if there is an addiction such as drugs or alcohol, then meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters is pretty much worthless until the addiction itself is dealt with. Addicts really only love themselves and only respond to their chemical of choice. In these cases it might be better to treat the addiction like a mistress and do an intense and short Plan A while negotiating to get the addict into a treatment program and if after a short time nothing is changing, then Plan B all the way until you can gain emotional equilibrium and decide if continuing the relationship is even worth the effort. For addicts with a very low bottom, the prospect of losing you won't have much benefit to your cause so permanent separation and possible divorce is usually the end result.

But in that middle ground, since meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters is really the way you want to live the rest of your life, you continue to do those things and try to determine if what needs to happen has more to do with learning to make his problems HIS problem or if things are bad enough to separate until he makes some changes.

I don't think people end Plan A too soon. In many cases I think they never really begin a good Plan A. They love bust from the first day by having AOs, using DJs to leverage the separation from the affair partner and generally set unattainable expectations for how things should progress. They burn out very quickly because they are looking for that magic bullet that will turn everything around and make the WS want to return to the marriage.

The problem of course is that the marriage was bad enough from the WS POV that it was better to leave than to fix it. Much of this is just fog and entitlement run amok, but it still is the POV of the WS. So expecting a sudden turn around leads to dashed hope and dashed hope leads to falling off the program/wagon and then we scream and shout, make disrespectful judgments an every day occurrence and generally undo anything we have accomplished in the last few days by meeting ENs. It is usually Love Busters that have caused the decline in our spouse's Love Bank to begin with and not just a lack of meeting ENs. Meeting ENs by someone else when our balance is so low or even worse negative due to continued Love Busters is what causes a great many affairs to begin so any love busters defeat us before we get out of the gate.

The problem is that while we are trying to fill a bucket with an eyedropper, any leaks that still exists have to be plugged or no progress is ever made. We shoot the bucket full of holes and then can't understand why is doesn't hold water. If the bucket doesn't fill up then either we aren't filling it fast enough (meeting wrong ENs) or as the old song goes..."There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza."

So, assuming that in your case, Think, your husband isn't on board with MB, but isn't involed with anyone else and your efforts are seeming to make things worse from your POV rather than better, you need to first be absolutely certain that you are in fact meeting his ENs properly and that all Love Busters are gone from your daily life. Annoying habits are hard to fix without input. IB is difficult to see when we are struggling unilaterally to change things and getting nothing back since that leads to entitlement which is the kindling for the flame of IB. DJs are hard to identify without someone pointing them out to us and it is the ones we take most offense at that we need to deal with first.

So if you are working the program perfectly, or pretty much on target at the very least and nothing is happening in return, then some other leverage has to be used somewhere to change what is happening. If he is happy and you are not, you making him happier is not going to work all by itself.

The hard part is that for most marriages that have been around a while, neither of us is happy and we use words like "OK," "normal," and "pretty good." What we mean is "I wish to God he/she would stop X or would do Y and Z." When one spouse tries to make things better, the whole improves if they do the right things. The result can be a marriage that is better than ever even though it is still not satisfying to one or even both.

Something else I often tell people early on in trying to help them is this...

CALL THE COACHING CENTER AND TALK TO STEVE OR JENNIFER...

When we have no way of figuring out the proper motivation to get our spouse to do things differently, they can supply the trigger that starts the whole thing in motion along the right trajectory. They can also very quickly in only a few minutes of conversation identify holes in the process that we might not see ourselves and fine tune what we do so that it works instead of letting ourselves flounder along, repeating the same actions over and over while expecting the results to change.

And one more piece that must take place for any of MB to work at all...

WE MUST SPEND AT LEAST 15 HOURS PER WEEK TOGETHER DOING FUN THINGS AND MEETING THE INTIMATE ENs. Until we are doing that, we aren't really making massive Love Bank deposits. And if we can meet those IENs then we are not missing the rest of the program since those are the keys to creating intimacy and compatibility.

If you struggle at meeting the intimate emotional needs you withhold from the relationship and are never really all in. So if you can't meet his EN for RC because you don't enjoy his sports or you can't meet SF because you have some aversion to sex, then you are avoiding meeting the ENs and so will never create intimacy in which your IENS of Affection and Intimate Conversation can be met since you are in fact avoiding intimacy.

So first make sure YOU have the whole program firing on all cylinders and then decide if what you need to do is set conditions for remaining married. It takes BOTH sides to make it work.

And once it pays off and the marriage becomes spectacular...

We still have to meet those ENs and avoid Love Busters for the rest of our days together. Those parts never end.

What will NOT work is "being extra nice" or becoming a doormat without the substance of actually beginning to meet the IENs and allow our own IENs to be met by our spouse. In order to meet the IENs, we have to spend time together without other people around and without distractions of any kind. The carnival might be a lot of fun, and it might even meet the ENs of Affection, Conversation and even Recreational Companionship. But unless you are really adventurous, SF isn't going to happen on the Tilt-A-Whirl or the Farris Wheel.

15 Hours per week UA time.
Meeting top ENs,
Meeting Intimate ENs of SF and RC.
Avoiding all Love Busters, especially IB, DJs, AO, SDs and lying.
Following POJA.
Following PORH.

There's the check list. If you are doing all of these and nothing is happening, then something else needs to be leveraged and another motivation to change must be found.

But if you can't wholeheartedly agree that each of these things is absolutely true then those are the places to start.

Mark

Really? I thought I read somewhere in Harley's articles that he uses plan A and plan B even in cases without an affair. Specifically with a spouse's refusal to meet an important intimate EN like SF.

I think this is really important. Is Plan A/Plan B just for affairs, or is it part of MB as a whole? If you don't mind I'm going to start a separate thread on it.

I know you come at this from the perspective of a BS, but even though I am not a betrayed spouse, this is what I experience in my marriage a lot of the time. Holding my tongue, walking on eggshells, bouncing back from experiencing his withdrawl. I want to know how long do I have to keep bouncing back, because I don't know what a reasonable limit is. Some days I want to draw the line right there, other days I believe that I should never draw the line because marriage is a perpetual committment. All or nothing thinking. I'm looking for a reasonable alternative, because the two alternatives I see right now both appear to be too extreme.

Sorry Mark, your posts are so long that I don't read them through before responding

Still reading . . .

These are the two that I struggle with the most. I usually don't catch a DJ until after it comes out. Fortunately, I now recognize them quickly, as opposed to justifying myself before (progress, not perfection!). And I apologize, not generally, but specifically for what I said, and I also state what I could have done better and what I will strive to do in the future. The IB is an even bigger challenge, because he encourages my IB. As long as I have other friends, other activities, going to alanon, going to church, spending time on the computer, then I will leave him alone to have HIS IB. On this front, I am doing my best to put him first, invite him to be a part of my separate activities, and schedule them around times when we wouldn't be together anyway.

I too believe this is the key to making any relationship work, whether using MB or not. Until he and I both make a commitment that our 15 hours is more important than anything, then really I'm just typing to see what I can write. It's meaningless dribble. And until we BOTH make that commitment, anything either one of us tries to do will be just a half measure. If we aren't willing to do the 15 hours, well, I might was well just call a lawyer now.

I just reread that, and I know it sounds sarcastic. But I don't intend it that way. I'm serious; without that 15-20 hours, what is the point of wasting my time and energy?

Think,

I guess what I meant was that the idea of Plan A being limited to weeks or a handful of months at most is assuming that infidelity is involved. If nothing is coming back and our spouse is not responding going on is really hard. In an affair, not only is our spouse not responding to us like we would hope, he or she is actively trying to undermine our efforts to unilaterally save the marriage. This is the biggest cause of stress in Plan A.

But even in cases without an affair lack of reciprocity is probably cause for separation at some point. The alternative is usually to allow someone else to meet our ENs in some way and THAT leads to infidelity and then we are on the other side of things all together.

Dr Harley does talk about an all out attempt to bring a spouse back from Withdrawal, but he doesn't call it Plan A in the section where he talks about it.

Mark

How realistic is it to try and get 15 hours of UA with a spouse who is not on board with the MB Program?

Those of us doing the MB program understand why it's important, but for anyone else - it sounds like smothering.

I guess the 15 hours should be my line in the sand. (My husband does not want a divorce, Chris, which makes it a little different than you.)

At some point, I throw down that gauntlet. "We need to be spending more time together and we both need to make that our top priority right now. If we can't do that, I don't see how we can have a relationship that is satisfying for either one of us. We both need to commit to 15 hours a week focused on sex, conversation, and recreation, we need to plan it out each week and follow through. If that doesn't improve things, we'll reevaluate, but I'm not going to continue to be married to a man who is unwilling to at least try that for a month and see what happens."

How does that sound?

But isn't it essentailly the same?

(As described here)


You're darned right - No wonder I was a wreck the first 2 weeks.

So what's the answer?

Here's Dr. Harley on Plan A:



Here's Dr. Harley on Withdrawl



So Plan A looks very much like "Coaxing a spouse out of Withdrawl" with the exception that in Plan A, there is a thoughtful request for the WS to cease all contact with the OW / OM...Seems like with both situations, the spouse who is working MB is doing it without the other spouse and is going to have a tough time of it because they'll be doing all the heavy lifting in the beginning...but how long is too long?

This question is of particular interest to me as well. Here's another -

Catch 22 - We're told if we work MB properly, our spouse will come out of Withdrawl....we're also told that without the 15 hours (minimum) of UA, we're not working the MB Program properly. At the same time, it's unlikely that you'll get 15 hours UA with a spouse in Withdrawl or a reluctant spouse. So...what's the answer here?

Yes.


Waiting eagerly to see what the vets say.

Mark is right that Dr Harley has never called it "Plan A" in his books and writings. Until very recently, you would never see him use that term except in the case of adultery. In a recent newsletter, however, he did actually call it Plan A for the first time. [that I know of]

He used it in a unique way to counsel a woman whose husband refused to meet her needs:

When to Call it Quits

That's where I saw it!

Thanks Mel.

Some parts of "When to Call it Quits" is a scary read because it's the truth.

TTT, generally speaking if they don't get it in a month, they will probably never get it. The problem with doing a long term Plan A is that it often leads to one spouse developing enormous resentment and an erosion of love for the other spouse. Once the feelings grow to hate, they are very hard to turn around. Plan A is a state of sacrifice, which is extreme GIVING. And extreme giving leads to resentment and extreme taking.

I found a lot of telling statements in "When to Call it Quits," part 3:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit3.html


I would never want to try separation without the best experts in the world looking at me to see if I've truly been avoiding love busters and meeting emotional needs. I came here thinking I was doing this and discovered I was not.

Also:

Good point about separation Markos.

I think this is a good point, but I don't believe an expert is required for everyone, although it would be a good idea! Most just get it by reading the book Lovebusters. There really is no such thing as a perfect plan A.

On second thought, Markos, I think you have a good point. Not everyone is as slow as me, but in my case, I was still engaging in INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR even after 5 years!

Wow, thanks for digging that stuff up. Especially the part form the newsletter. I know I've read that before, but I don't remember reading the part about preparing for plan B before beginning plan A.

I have been feeling guilty (though not remorseful) about wanting to see a lawyer when at the same time I feel I should be putting my energy into "saving" the marriage. So I've been in a state of mostly inaction either way. I thought this would be like having one foot out the door. I guess I should have read my own posts about that a week ago!

So I think I am becoming a lot more motivated today to stop the inaction. I may even see about calling SH. Not quite there yet, but seriously considering it now instead of dismissing.

My alanon sponsor has been GREAT at calling me on the carpet about that sort of thing. I also have another program "friend" who is known for her 2x4's and which I have experienced one. She scares me to death, but she is the one I will go to when I need to make a decision.

I hear you on the Catch 22 about UA time, Chris. I think the important thing for me to do is SCHEDULE IT ANYWAY. If my husband refuses to participate, then so be it. Then it's his choice and none of the blame can fall on me. CYA. Not the BEST motivation in the world, but it's what I've got right now, and it's real.

I would never know if I was slow or not if other people hadn't enlightened me.

What does that look like?

I mean - give me an example. You make reservations for 2 at a restaurant and you show up even if he doesn't...

Chris, I haven't done this yet, so it's just theory.

Ideally I will ask my husband to participate in the scheduling so that we can POJA. We already have a list of "approved activities" that we negotiated several weeks ago, so if he won't participate, I can use that.

On Sunday afternoon we will sit down with the calendar and literally schedule in our one-on-one time. While I'm at it, I should probably do the same for my kids, too. I don't get much 1on1 with them either, especially the middle child.

My husband eats lunch out. I can easily plan to join him at least once a week, maybe more.

We have family in town who can help with babysitting, so I'm sure we can schedule a regular "date" on a weekend day for several hours on most weekends.

Going out during the week will be tough, but we can at least plan and hour or two each night to talk or play a card game.

Sex is a challenge, and I'm resistant to scheduling it. I won't engage in anything when I'm fertile, because we have already had two birth control failures, and pills are not an option. But when I feel safe from pregnancy, and can be truly willing, I will also do that. I have a major aversion to sex with my husband, but I am pushing through it as best I can right now. Yes, I've read Harley's article on it, and clearly Harley himself has never had a sexual aversion because his "solution" is very simplistic. I know that when my husband starts meeting my emotional needs and I am in love with him, I will no longer have the aversion. Perhaps that is the "carrot" that will motivate him, although my husband has said that if I have to "work" to feel "in love" then it's not real. I understand. I've thought that before too. I see differently now.

So that's the plan. There's only a few hours in my week that are open for UA time. So scheduling won't be hard. It's sticking to it that will be hard.

So when it comes to sticking to it, I will review my schedule each morning and make a commitment to it each morning. I will remind DH about the planned activity. I will motivate myself to look forward to the UA time each day, to anticipate and get excited. If he's in a bad mood or something else prevents him from participating in UA time, I will not take it personally, and I will have a backup plan, like a phone call or going to an alanon meeting, so that I don't focus on him and being let down.

Have you looked over the link to Mark1952's post that I linked to here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159534&Number=2341836#Post2341836 ?

Mark's story has a great gentleness about it that I think is important. If you make too many choices of the form "He/she won't discuss this with me (again), so I'll do it without him," I think it's risky. Mark appears to have just guessed on his own what would be a good way to start gradually meeting his wife's emotional needs, and meeting them.

In my case, I knew a couple of things about meeting my wife's needs and did similarly. There were days it appeared to have absolutely no effect at all, days I wanted to run screaming off the minute I came home because I was trying to show love for her and she was rejecting it, in withdrawal. But if you keep making those opportunities, eventually it can have an effect.

I tried a different approach many times: "You said this is what you wanted, so I'm going to keep doing it until you talk to me." "You won't talk to me, so I'll go off and do my own thing." It was pretty much nothing but a love bank withdrawal.

Also, since that thread seems to be abandoned, let me just bring my whole post over here. I think in particular it's important to recognize that withdrawal is not a conscious choice:

[b][/b]

Markos, this is an excellent point: Going ahead with the planned UA when the spouse isn't doing it may be a LB.

I need to figure out how to get UA in with my spouse, but it isn't going to be easy. He has a habit of going down to the basement and watching TV down there or going on his computer as soon as we get home. Sometimes I'll go down there and sit with him but, at times, he's working on homework or he needs "alone time." (I noticed an uptick in this "alone time" need after he came back from Iraq.

Truthfully, since I have been doing MB, I have seen improvements in the way we are spaeking to each other. Also, he will come up and interact with me for a little while. He has been calling me at work more at this point too. There are noticeable differences.

Baby Steps which lead to bigger steps - like what Mark did is probably what I need to do as far as trying to get UA in (at least until he is on board with MB). I Need to get creative and brain storm. This is challenging while I am on crutches & in an air boot though Just a few more weeks...

I am sincerely hoping we'll be in the May MB Weekend.

Another point: if your spouse isn't willing to schedule 15 hours UA time with you, spend whatever time you can with your spouse meeting their intimate emotional needs, even if that is less than 15 hours. If they aren't willing to turn off the television, watch television with them, and provide affection and a bit conversation while you do it. Fix a snack if they like that sort of thing. Offer a small gift if they like that. Just take care of them.

Make the time spent with you pleasant. Make it the most pleasant time they have all week. (Got that from Mark. It's not a direct quote, but it's pretty much what he was saying. He eventually made the time spent with him so pleasant for his wife and valuable to her that she dumped the man she was committing adultery with!) Resist any idea that might potentially make the time you are trying to spend with your spouse less pleasant.

Always make it a thoughtful request. "Can I watch TV with you?" "How would you feel if we went for a walk?" (Some requests don't need words. Make it a request by being willing to not respond with selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts if your offer is declined. For example, if you prepare a snack and your spouse doesn't eat it, don't fall to pieces over it. You lost a chance to deposit love units, and that's sad, but keep the bigger picture in focus. There will be another opportunity.)

Thanks M, that was extremely helpful!

I disagree with you on the withdrawl thing Markos. At least for me, being in withdrawl was a VERY conscious choice that I fed, and still feed when I'm not vigilant. It was not a subconscious reaction for me (although I do believe that it can be for most people).

For me, withdrawl was a conscious choice to protect myself from the person who disappointed me time and again by no longer giving him the chance.

Problem was that the side effects of withdrawl, of being married on a piece of paper but not in my heart, were worse than the disappointment.

For my husband, withdrawl seems to be a reaction, but for me, it was most definitely a choice.

And yes, you CAN "just decide" not to be in withdrawl. That's what MB has challenged me to do. That's what MB is all about, making conscious decision in favor of the marriage. A lot of first time posters who come to this forum are in withdrawl married to spouses in withdrawl, looking for us to justify ending their marriages. I was one of them when I found this site. I was DEEP in withdrawl. I was a wayward wife just waiting to happen. Luckily I have boundaries (also a decision). But I lived every day justifying my LB behaviors, especially my IB. I lived every day feeding my withdrawl and actively preventing myself from feeling anything for my husband, even when he was not being an angry SOB. There have been times when I have consciously prevented him from meeting my EN out of spite.

I was miserable. So I made a change. I chose happiness. I AM responsible for my own happiness, regardless of what the MB lingo teaches us. My husband is not . . . I can be happy no matter what he choose to do or not do, my happiness is not dependant on him one iota. He can choose to be a part of my happiness, or he can choose to sit on the sidelines and lose me. But we have both been fence-sitting for our entire relationship and marriage.

I have read Mark's story, and it is inspiring.


I don't understand the riskiness? Do you mean that if I have that attitude, then it will result in IB?

I have every reason to believe that my husband probably WILL participate in the planning of UA. But based on past experience, I don't think he will follow through. We've been down that road MANY MANY times (Dave Ramsey Financial Peace comes to mind). My husband has GREAT INTENTIONS, and I think I posted a few pages back about my opinion of good intentions

He seems unwilling to translate his intentions into actions when the going gets tough. I suppose this is a DJ, but I mean it in all sincerity. To be fair, I have the same problem. I suck a followthrough, which is probably why I married a man who sucks at it and thus can't hold me accountable I'm choosing to change that, to change my actions. But it's not my job to educate him about changing his actions. Maybe it's my job to motivate him though.

How One Spouse Can Lead
the other Back to Intimacy

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html

I'm with think. I am consciously choosing to remain in withdrawal to protect myself. I don't trust my wife to meet my needs or to avoid LBs. So I pull away. Makes it very hard for her to make love bank deposits. I get a big payoff from seeing to it that her needs do not get met, as payback for all the years when mine were not. It is a self-destructive payoff. Less than the payoff from having a fulfilling marriage and getting my needs met. But a payoff nonetheless. I cold make a conscious choice to go back into conflict. And negotiate for my needs to get met.

Withdrawal can certainly be a conscious choice.

"The state of withdrawl doesn't usually last very long."

That may be true, but after repeated attempts (albiet pre-MB) of both me and my husband dipping our feet back into the pool of conflict with no major postive forward motion, the state of withdrawl is beginning to look pretty permanent to both of us.

I think withdrawl as a "reactionary" state is definitely short-lived. But withdrawl as a chosen state can go on as long as the person choosing it keeps choosing it, and that can be a very long time. If I stay in withdrawl, I may very well choose my way into divorce. That is certainly where I was headed back before I found MB.

Markos, I've read both of those articles, and I think they are a bit simplistic. Harley seems to be working under the assumption that people are always reactionary creatures (which I think is true for 98% of the population 98% of the time.) But for people lving very consciously and intentionally, the formula doesn't always work.

Thinking,

The Resolving Conflicts Over Friends & Relatives section of the Love Busters book gives a good example which I think may apply to your intended approach on the UA "I'll go whether he does or not." That choice amounts to Independent Behavior & it will withdraw Love Bank Units. Granted he'd be doing that too by planning UA with you and then blowing it off. Do you have sessions lined up with Dr. H?

As for the comments about Withdrawl - heck yeah my DH decided to do that mess on purpose, just like he decided to stop doing it shortly thereafter. I believe it can be instinctual / refelxive but it's mostly a conscious choice ie "I am not going to communicate with you unless I have to, and I'm not going to spend time alone with you."

Is it really IB if my spouse is OK with it?

For example, my spouse comes home after a hard day, he's angry and frustrated. After the kids are in bed it's time for UA time and he's not "in the mood" for planned UA time and tells me it's OK if I want to go out for the evening to a meeting or walmart or something. Is that really IB? What is mroe of a lovebuster, forcing us to do UA that he doesn't want, making him feel guilty over not engaging in planned UA time, or going off and doing my own thing after he suggests it to "get out of" our planned UA time?

No, I don't have sessions line up. Need to put it in the budget first, and that won't happen until April.

I guess if your spouse enthusiastically agrees, then it is not IB...but the thing is - if you are both like "screw it" (when it comes to the marriage) and you both enthusiastically agree to NOT doing UA...what then?

"Screw it" is exactly the phrase sometimes We're both lazy a lot of the time, both undisciplined. I want to change that, he sees no need because he's OK with the way things are, and having things better is not a motivation for him. He'd rather mediocre, comfortable, not requiring change or spiritual growth than to attempt to have a GREAT marriage, which would require going way outside the comfort zone. Quite frankly I feel the same way a lot of the time, which is probably why we've stay married this long! "Good enough" was for a long time.

Well, just because he doesn't want to become more disciplined doesn't mean I don't get to. In fact, for me it's a given. I have started with going to meetings, working my steps, calling my sponsor, now adding a new dimension with the eating disorder. Forming new habits.

I think that most "normal" people would see all this as a good thing, as me doing what I need to do to no longer be depressed and angry all the time. My husband couldn't stand me when I was like that. "I don't care what you do, just get help and stop being this way!" Now that I'm actually DOING something, instead of being supportive, he seems very threatened by it.

Thinkin, Chris, I wish you both well with the UA.

I started with going out not just the two of us every time, but with other folks that H was nice to me around. Because at first, we bickered a lot, and we had to get out of that habit. Even something like line dancing, where we weren't so much talking with others, as we were talking with one another in a "safe" environment. Some folks aren't mean when there are lots of folks close by. I did most of the planning, and H knew he was welcome to throw in ideas, but that there was no pressure. I saw this was what his buddy did, planned something he and H would like, and then called him with the date and time. So this was already something my H liked, being invited to something already set up. There are lots of organized things where we live where all you have to do is how up - music festivals, home shows, auto shows, the thing where the fighter jets come to town and do a show, the circus, franchise fairs, film festivals, food festivals, renaissance fairs. Lots of stuff the kids came with us, but they could do their own thing, like walking on the boardwalk, and the kids lagged behind, so we could talk. Lots of stuff for FC time, too. Best wishes with it!

My husband likes road trips. And I also enjoy them. With 3 kids 6, 4 and 1, it is hard to do anything like you described and have it be relaxing for both of us (one of us is usually in anxiety mode, if not both). But I really miss our drives together. Now that the weather is getting warmer I hope we can do more things like that. I'm totally an outdoor person. Husband not so much because of allergies. GRRRRRR . . . there I go with the "Yes Buts". Need to go read Page 200 of ODAT again

Thinkin, my kids are 14 and 8. so yes, it was way different when they were little. Do you have a reliable sitter? One of the neighborhood kids would babysit our kids for $5 an hour, every Saturday night, what a bargain! Where there's a will, there's a way, right? What do you have locally?

I have horrible allergies, too, so I love your idea with the driving. Has he tried something like Claritin daily?

Yes, we have lots of family nearby, it's just becoming more scheduled and less spontaneous that we need to work on

Oh, that's great!

I know you talked about letting go of expectations, and that is a great thing, applies to many situations. I think I've mentioned before that in some areas I had a hard time figuring out how to find the balance between my Alanon program and MB, and for me SF was one of them. I didn't have an aversion, I still had a willingness to try for SF even when it was consistently unfulfilling and even painful, because I was reaching out for any connection I could get. Like that expression a soggy potato chip is better than no potato chip.

When I read the Overcoming Aversion articles, it became clear to me, anticipation of SF *is* expectations, good expectations. It takes consistency and care. The soggy potato chip thing may be fine for many other things. Like mopping the floor halfway is better than no mopping it at all. But I realized that this isn't for SF, something so special and intimate. For me the growth experience came from becoming willing to wait for the attitude shift that signaled a different kind of experience.

I encourage you to give a shout out to Telly and Bubbles, they are great with the BC options. Telly is Catholic and teaches natural family planning at her church.

Think,

You need to become more intentional rather than just more scheduled.

UA time can never contain talks about the relationship. If he doesn't want to talk about the relationship and you talk about the relationship one time while supposedly spending time together as UA time, UA time will always carry the notion of talking about the relationship.

Scheduling with kids in the home is important. Making the most of the time available is more important.

I know this seems forced right now, but believe me, once he starts to enjoy spending time with you more than anything else, it gets to be almost effortless.

Pick a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, set up a sitter, get in the car and drive...East/West/North/South...Spend about a third of your allotted time driving; find something interesting to stop and check out. Find some off track diner, drive in or dive (something without a nationally recognized logo on it) and have something to eat. Might be good, might be great, might be bad, might be the worst thing you've ever eaten...Shared experience...

On the way home, stop at the store down the street and take home ice cream to share with the kids.

You get a break from the kids, you get to share an experience together and you get to come home to the reason for all the hard work...

One hour...two...4...the length of time you have isn't what matters. enjoying just being together matters most and coming home to see the kids reminds both of you why you even bother.

Mark

I'm very familiar with NFP. That's how we were able to achieve PG the first time, and also how I knew that we would probably get PG the second time, and why I know that the condom failed for #3

It is very validating to hear what you are saying about SF. It is in a category all it's own I guess. I have read a lot on this forum (pre-posting days) that I should be meeting my DH's needs first, including SF, BEFORE expecting him to start meeting my EN. I would be 100% willing to do this with everything except SF. For SF, I want to be 100% "there" or not at all. Some may disagree with this. But I know from years of experience that this is exactly where my aversion comes from. It's not sex itself that I'm avers to,. it's having to experience sex witohut anything except my body. On top of that, I am not arroused easily with just the physcial foreplay. I need about 2 hours of good solid conversation about philosophy, life, religion, psuchology, etc before I am primed enough to respond to a sxual advance. It's just eh way I'm wired, and I don't really want to change that just so I can meet my husband's need for sex. It's gotten to the point that even HE doesn't want sex that often because he knows that I'm only doing out of duty, that I'm having to "work" at it, that I'm trying to practice "feelings following actions."

Truth be told: It's hella hard to engage in sex on the "feelings follow actions" basis. The man will sense you are not into it because you'll be absolutely disgusted the entire time. Eventually, it will turn him off.

We do this already. Just not enough. And he seems to think that a couple of hours after months of doing nothing together will jumpstart my sex drive. I want to be friends with him again, without any expectation of sex from me. And every time we spend time togehter, that's what he seems to think will happen. I dated guys like that in high school and they got dumped, fast.

I make it a point not to talk relationship stuff with him unless he brings it up, or unless we have an immediate conflict to be resolved. That is one of those MB "things" that I "got" right away!

I wish that he would drop the expectation for sex like I've dropped talking about the relationship.

Well, that seemed to be the "sex advice" being tossed around here a lot back when I was a lurker this summer. Part of why it took me so long to post, and tell bits of my story. I was afraid that if I posted about the problems, I'd be told blanket statement, feelings follow actions, even with sex, and that I need to give my husband what he needs because it's an important EN. I am willing to fill his love bank any other way until he starts filling mine.

I will not engage in SF that I am not 100% enthusiastic about, and I will not play "mind games" with myself to get there

I am not a vet or an expert, but I agree with you. For a female, sex is an extremely intimate act. One that cannot be "faked" until it's "maked." Perhaps a vet will come along and enlighten me, but that's how I see it.

If my husband were to suddenly try to hop in bed with me and initiate sex, what would I do considering all which has transpired? Would I push him away in outrage or would I join in without knowing he is committed? I really don't know. Luckily he's not. I did ask a question about that before in this thread and no one answered it...which scares me to pieces... but I digress.

Anyway - Yesterday *I got undressed while he was *tucking me in and he practically ran out of the room.

*Tucking me in & getting undressed: In the situation above, DH followed me up to the bedroom to make sure I got there OK after I had taken some pain killers. It has been about a week since I've been showering on my own. So no more peep shows for DH. I sleep nude, so that's why I got undresssed.

Any guesses as to why he practically ran out of the room?

Let me see if I understand correctly. You guys don't have sex as much as he wishes. In part because he can tell you are disgusted by it when you are not in the mood. To the extent that he is now turned off when you are not in the mood. And you want to know why he runs out of the room when you get naked?

Well, maybe in his mind (even if not in yours), your naked body triggers sexual thoughts. And if he knows that you are not in the mood, he is turned off by sexual thoughts. To avoid the sexual thoughts, he avoids seeing you naked.

Or maybe he imagines that you think he only wants you for your body. And he wants to demonstrate that he wants you for other things. So he makes a show of avoiding you when you are naked. With the (perhaps misguided) intention of showing you that he doesn't stay with you merely to get an occassional "peep show".

No...nononono

DH was in Withdrawl ~ 2-3 weeks ago. Oddly enough - during the Withdrawl he had to physically help me take showers & even lotion me up afterwards due to a temporary physical thing (my surgery).

We slept separately at first due to the physical thing and now, it's partially the physical thing but also because he is thinking about whether he wants to divorce or work on our marriage.

I started using MB & he has responded positiveley to it but he is still "thinking things over." A recent confrontation about us not sleeping together confirmed that he is not sleeping in the bed with me because he is still "thinking things over." (This was a few days ago.)

I am healing very well & at this point, I need no more help in the shower. So it's been awhile since he's seen the goodies. Last night, he ran out of the room at the sight of my nude body.

Do you think the reasons you gave still apply?

Let me see if I can do this while at work...

The point of UA time is to meet the 4 Intimate Emotional Needs. These four are Sexual Fulfillment, Intimate Conversation, Affection and Recreational Companionship. Typically Affection and Conversation are ENs that are near the top of the list for most women. RC and SF are usually in the top 5 for men.

When time is set aside specifically to meet these four as a group then the process gets easier with time unless something shorts things out along the way. After a day of being together, having good conversation, getting affection and both enjoying the time together, sex does not seem to naturally flow from that. The problem is that unless it does, men quickly lose interest in the other three.

Affection does not always have to lead to sex. But once that possibility is removed from the mix, then Affection is taken off the table as well.

Everyone knows about Pavlov's dogs. The bell became a directed stimulus that caused a response that was originally associated with food being given to them after a bell had rung. When the response became a directed response, dependent only on the ringing of the bell, then the bell alone triggered the appropriate response.

But another experiment was done with dogs as well that had to do with the way the reward system works in the brain. Two dishes full of food were given to a dog. One was round and the other was oval shaped. When the dog ate from the round dish, he got to eat. When he tried to eat from the oval dish, he got an electric shock. This shock was not extremely painful, just enough to be uncomfortable.

Eventually the dog got to the point where he would sit in front of an empty round dish for an entire day rather than attempt to eat from the oval dish even though it already contained food.

Then the round dish was made to be more oval each day and the oval dish was made to appear more round each day until they were nearly identical to each other. At that point, the dog went into the corner and had a nervous breakdown...

My point is, that when Affection and Conversation lead not to SF but to rejection, before long, conversation and affection are not being offered. The problem is that unless a man knows when it can and when it can't lead to sex, he doesn't have anything he can depend on and after a few times of trying to provide conversation and affection the right way but getting no payoff in the end and in the absence of knowing how to tell when rejection will occur instead of the reward he seeks, he basically stops anticipating SF entirely. It isn't that he no longer wants it with his wife, simply that he can't figure out when it will happen or when he will get the shock (rejection). So to avoid possible rejection, he stops anticipating the reward and stops seeking it as well in order to avoid the pain of rejection.

If UA time is only for Conversation and Affection, even including recreational companionship with his wife, if he can never tell if he will get SF or not from the process, the process itself becomes a burden to him. He then begins to spend his recreational time with his buddies and does things that the guys can do together. Since UA time is now nonexistent, affection and conversation also vanish and soon neither one is getting their intimate emotional needs met by their spouse.

Enter that guy at the office who is willing to talk to the wife or the girl at the club house at the golf course who likes to flirt and the marriage becomes a statistic.

SF IS unique. It IS special. It is the only EN that we agree to do exclusively with each other when we get married. All other ENs, including the other IENs can sometimes be met by others not in the marriage relationship. This can be done within the guidelines of legitimacy.

But sex, for all the emotional attachment and all the reason why it should never be entered into indiscriminately outside of marriage, is the one thing that makes a marriage so unique and special as opposed to all other relationships, even intimate relationships.

Suppose the tables were reversed. What if your husband would only agree to meet your need for conversation every once in a while and only after sex? Or what if he never touched you except as part of sex? How would you feel if he said at the end of a long day at work, "I don't want to talk tonight, or spend time with the kids. I just want to have sex and have you fix me some dinner."

What if you had sex with him and then wanted to talk and he said "Sorry. Not tonight. I don't feel like talking. The sex wasn't that great anyway."

If UA time does not include SF as part of it, when does it happen? Spontaneous might be nice after everything works just right and all the stars are in alignment at the end of a 12 hour day of perfect romance. But if that is the only time it can happen and never happens except under those conditions, then you probably need to get away for the weekend every week.

Affection and conversation don't have to lead to sex. But UA time should include a plan for it or it never happens. Just like you ladies get stuck with this "I won't give him sex unless he gives me Affection and Conversation" men get stuck on the other end of the deal. "Unless I am going to get what I want, why should I bother to work so hard at doing what I don't want to do and what is not one of MY ENs if she won't meet MY needs?"

If SF is an EN, it is up to you to meet it, just like meeting Affection, Conversation, Financial Support, Family Commitment and Honesty need to be met. Of all of these, only SF cannot ever be met outside of marriage. If he talks to the waitress, you don't get mad. But if he has sex with her, the marriage is off. If he talks to her late at night about intimate topics we call it an affair and you DO get mad because that too is one the intimate emotional needs.

SF is the reason we get married.Just about any of the other ENs can get met without being married and no one bats an eye. Only SF is kept in reserve for marriage. If marriage does not result in SF, then not much reason remains for the institution.

[/rant]

Mark
(Who took almost 3 hours to type this because I'm supposed to be working right now)

Yes. He is in withdrawal. He doesn't want to see you naked. I do the same thing sometimes with Mrs. Hold. When things are bad between us, I do not want to see her naked. I don't want to think about the sex we aren't having. I don't want to be tempted. I want to stay strong and stay away, comfortably ensconced in my withdrawal. Seeing her naked might remind me how much I love her and want her and motivate me to exit withdrawal. Which I would view as a weakness within myself. So I flee the sight of her to flee temptation.

Not very MB. But perfectly understandable. At least to me. Which should scare you, since my wife and kids think I am the wierdest person they have ever met. Still, they love me anyway.

From Lifetime Fitness

From American Mental Health Alliance

Two articles to read. Both are from Dr Harley's stuff. Take the quiz with the first one.

Mark

So - I should make sure he sees me naked OFTEN?

Update. Husband and I had a somewhat decent conversation (non-relationship) this evening. He was hoping it would lead to sex, and given that I will ovulate any day, have a yeast infection, and am exhausted due to late nights and waking at 5 every morning, it didn't happen. Oh well, sorry Mark

I don't have time to spend really reading the posts that have been made about SF. I will say that I totally understand the male perspective.


This image made me crack up for some reason. I must be really tired.

Anyway, I'm glad we were able to have a nice casual conversation in which I could share some of my concerns about my husband's anger in a non-threatening way. It meant listening to his justifications for it, which was kinda an LB . . . "I'll work on the anger problem when you figure out a way to deal with stupid people." I told him the way to deal with "stupid people" is to stop saving them from their own failures and depriving them of the chance to learn from their mistakes. He didn't buy it. But we didn't argue about it either. Just shared our opinions and moved on to other topics.

So good night. I need to get to sleep because otherwise he will question what I'm not doing in bed

Actually, I did offer for us to go to bed together naked. But I guess he doesn't want to deal with potential rejection.

Cat recommended a book, Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Lundy Bancroft, that brings understanding about this and hundreds of other things like this that we heard over and over and over again, so I could remind myself to stay in reality instead of following folks down the rabbit hole falling into believing this stuff. When I hear something like this, I remind myself that respect is a basic right we all have, not something that must be "earned" first. It's up to me how to protect myself from folks who tell me plain as day that they do not respect this right I have. A growth step was for me to affirm this for myself out loud, "Respect isn't something that I have to earn."

Thought more about it overnight.

I'm operating under the assumption that we all agree that premarital sex is not ideal and should be avoided.

If a couple in their 20s is dating but not sexually active, then it is the meeting of the other EN that naturally leads to engagement, marriage, and THEN the consummation of marriage with sexual intercourse. Can we agree that this is the natural order of things?

So if this is the natural order of things PRIOR to the marriage commitment, why would it no longer be the natural order of things AFTER the marriage commitment?


If my 20-something daughter meets a great guy who meets her EN of conversation, recreation and affection, but starts to slack off in these areas and they fall out of love, I wouldn't advise her to have sex with him so that he would start meeting those needs again.

So why would we advise someone who is married any differently, simply because there is a piece of paper and some words said on a day in the past? I believe it's not the words or the document that make it a marriage, it's the actions. And in my view, it is the actions of mutually meeting all the other EN that lead to sex. For it to work the other way around is unhealthy because it puts sex in the category of marital currency.

A lot of men say that they need to have sex in ordrer to feel close to their spouse or partner, and only THEN are they able to meet the other EN. And women say they need to have the other EN met before feeling close enough to have sex. Outside the marital relationship, having sex to feel close would not be acceptible. Why is it acceptible within marriage?

I think this delimma is what makes it more difficult for a wife to lead her husband out of withdrawl than it is for a husband to lead his wife out of withdrawl. He has to go back to the "pre-marriage state" of courting without sex.

But if a wife goes back to the "pre-marriage state" of courting without sex, she's blasted for not meeting his EN for SF. Instead, she is put in the position of having to engage in SF BEFORE she is in love with her husband, in the hopes that by givng SF her husband will start meeting her EN afterwards and then fall in love with him. I have a word for that type of woman, and I certainly don't want to BE that type of woman.

Markos posted the article about leading a spouse out of withdrawl into conflict and finally into intimacy, and one of the things it stated is that the "leading" spouse is the last one to find themselves in the state of intimacy.

I personally do not believe that anyone should engage in sex until BOTH are ALREADY in the state of intimacy, even if they said vows and have a piece of paper.

thinkin, I totally hear you, but I'm wondering about other options, too, like other play folks have fun with while courting. That may make a transition like this a lot easier and more fun.

Thinking, what are your plans for dealing with this?

NED,

Using thinking's logic (which makes sense to me) that "other play" falls into the same category as sex unless you are speaking about kissing or keeping the "other play" above the neck.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Apart from suggesting that he let the stupid people learn from the consequences of their actions (even if it makes his life slightly more difficult in the sort term at work), I don't think there's anything I can do to "deal" with it.

If I tell him that his statement is a "disrespectful judgement" I will get totally laughed at, at best. Plus, to tell him that his opinion is a DJ is in itself a DJ, isn't it?

I would be open to other "play" above the belt. My husband has a harder time with this, as he is more of an "all or nothing" guy and always has been. I'm not a big fan of kissing him though, in part because he has facial hair, and also because I simply don't like the way he kisses. His kissing has always been a turnoff for me, so I have always avoided it. However, his below the belt skills were good and made up for the lack of kissing for me.

No, he will not shave. We have gone there before and he is not comfrotable without facial hair. He will trim the gotee back really short and that is acceptable to me, but he doesn't do this very often. I don't think he really knows how to "shave" because his dad never taught him. So most of the time he is really scruffy, because to trim his beard short everyoday is something that is not a part of his sleeping late routine.

He does know that I dislike this, but I'm not going to constantly bring it up. I have made the complaint known, and he will not change it consistently.

To give some background, we did engage in SF early on in dating, after he met my EN for deep conversation and I was VERY MUCH in the state of intimacy (and the state of raging hormones). After that, sex became "expected" and I didn't always enjoy it, although I did engage in it. I wasn't honest about this until we became engaged. At that point, I shared with him my regret about my sexual past, including my sexual past with him, because it was not my ideal. I requested that we refrain from sex for the remainder of our engagement (about a year). He didn't like it, but he complied, with occasional pushing to change my mind now and then. He told me that he would become Catholic. He spent lots of time talking with me then. We spent UA time together (although even when we were engaged it wasn't 15 hours a week because we didn't live together and were both busy with our jobs.)

He expected my desire for sex to return after we were married. Frankly, so did I. I also expected that once we were married we would both be "buyers" although I didn't use that term. I found out he wasn't, so I stopped being one too.

Sex is only for two byers, IMO. If one is and one isn't, the one who is shouldn't use sex to convince the renter or freeloader to become a buyer, either by intentionally witholding it, or intentionally giving it. That, in my mind, is manipulation at its worst, and cheapens the act, even if it occuring within the bounds of a marriage.

If he's only engaging in convesation and affection for a "payoff" of sex, then he deserves the rejection, my friend.

I believe that when a man engages in conversation, affection, and RC simply for the sake of conversation, affection and RC and for no other payoff, it is THEN that a woman is most likely to initiate SF with HIM.

Please don't get me wrong, I do feel for the rejection that men experience and how it can lead to their lack of desire. I wish there were an easy solution, and there's not, aside from "tabling" the expection of SF for BOTH men and women until they are both able to fill up each other's love banks and avoid withdrawls WITHOUT sex being part of the currency.

We are talking about rekindling healthy romantic love which causes us to make a commitment to marriage in the first place. It makes sense that to rekindle healthy romantic love, both parties need to make their way BACK to the state in which they can fall in love without sex.

It is possible to fall in love and to inspire a person to fall in love with me without using sex to do it.

Not very MB of me to say it, but that may not apply to all men. It is possible that your H is one of the men for whom it is NOT possible. I hope for both your sakes that he can.

Then again, at this point I am much more of a renter than a buyer. Maybe a buyer would view things differently.

I mean, what is your plan for dealing with the attitude he has towards AO? And by "plan" I do not mean anything involving talking about it.

Do the Harleys advise fake it til you make it sex (sex to bring a Withdrawn or Reluctant spouse back into intimacy)?

If a man must have sex in order to fall in love, that is not the type of man I want to be with,, period. That is pretty superficial and shallow in my opinion.

I'm not saying that YOU are one of those me, Hold. I've read your thread, and you are dealing with a lot of issues, some on your side of the fence, some on hers. I feel very badly for you. And for your wife, too. You're both missing out. As I said, no easy solution.

I'm not the one who has a problem with AO, he does. It is his job to first recognize that he has a problem, and it is his job to come up with his own solution.

His comment about "stupid people" wasn't really an agry outburst as much as it was a statement of "I won't until they do" kind of thing.

My "plan" for how to respond to his angry outbursts is to be honest with him by stating that I believe he is having an angry outbust that bothers me, and ask him to stop, and if he can't, then I will leave the room or he can. My "plan" is not to listen to his angry outburst. Let him go vent to a friend or co-worker. I don't need to subject myself to it. He can vent to me when he can do it in a way that demonstrates repct for me and for himself.

He IS capable of that, and does vent to me in healthy ways too. Not all his anger is expressed as an AO.

Wonderful.

I take that back. I DO have a problem with my own AO. My plan is to become more vigilant stopping them as soon as they start, as well as trying to become aware of what triggers my AO so as to avoid those situations.

For example, when I don't eat, I am more prone to an AO if I get frustrated. Solution is to eat more regularly so that I have less of a "hair trigger" temper.

Also wonderful.

Back to the sex thing, I totally agree with Harley's experience that once a couple is experiencing romantic love, SF is no longer a problem.

It seems that the men (and some of the women) on this board want to say that it's a chicken/egg situation. But in the case of healthy sexual intimacy, it is not. Emotional intimacy must be established in order for sexual intimacy to be emotionally healthy, for both men and women. One may have "good sex" in the physical sense without the emotional intimacy, but it is "just scrumpin" and is not healthy either in the short term or the long term, in my opinion, even within the context of marriage.

SF is a legitimate EN, intended exclusively for the marriage relationship. But even within a marriage relationship, SF can be unhealthy. Using SF to ESTABLISH intimacy is unhealthy. Experiencing SF as an expression of established intimacy is healthy.

There is a middle ground I think. Experiencing SF as an expression of the mutual DESIRE to establish intimacy, as long as it is within the context of marriage. The key word is mutual. Both parties in a state of withdrawl or conflict can engage in healthy SF if they both enthusiastically agree, and are doing so with the understanding that both parties will also make every effort to meet each other's other EN. However, I believe this middle ground should only be used if BOTH parties are of the buyer mindset, because if one is a renter or freeloader, the buyer will necessarily be taken advantage of if this is done long term, which will lead to sacrifice, which will lead to resentment, which will lead to a MAJOR hole in the bucket that may be beyond repair.

Hence, Hold's situation. Maybe even mine.

It's a a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

I am taking in your logic here. My immediate reaction is - I don't want to rush back into sex with my H. I will feel comfortable with SF and not feel resentment about SF if I participate in SF with the knowledge that he is committed to working on our marriage and we are getting closer (entering Intimacy) because of it. I will not use SF as a means to getting him to make that committment and to draw him into intimacy. Can SF actually draw men into intimacy? I am guessing NO.

Anyway, for me to do it any other way would mean more sacrifice - which in itself isn't a bad thing - but in the case of sex... the act is so special & so intimate for me that the "sacrifice" would be too great and would cause big resentment on my side of the fence...

I am glad this subject came up. My H and I are not co-sleeping at the moment...though I am not sure what will happen after Saturday. Maybe I'll have to face the issue at that time. I hope not.

You give me too much credit. I AM one of those men. My wife mistakenly thought I was different. Hence our tragedy.

I am starting to think this makes me a renter rather than a buyer. I am only willing to do so much before I expect sex to occur. If what I am willing to offer to get sex is not enough for the woman to feel in the mood, I am not willing to up my game to reach her level. I would rather end the relationship than put in more effort. Which explains how our marriage got to where it is. I am, in the end, only a renter.

Not to say that my wife is a buyer, either. Likely we are both renters. Which is why MC, even with a MB trained coach, availed us naught.

Oh boy...

Yes, exactly. Note that I am not saying thinkin should have sex with her husband. On the contrary, I agree she should not. Doing so will only build resentment at him for pressuring her.

I sincerely hope that her husband really feels and ascribes to the values he showed by waiting until after marriage to return to shared sexuality.

Well, Hold, maybe you're one of those men, and maybe you're not. Maybe to some extent it IS a choice.

I think the only reason he "waited" is because he was afraid of the fight. Not because he felt the same way I did.

Chris, I DO think that SF can lead a man into intimacy, if it actually leads both partners to filling each other's EN.

I think this points to exactly the dilemma Dr Harley discovered when he began to research what he came to refer to as Emotional Needs. He realized at once that there were certain things that led to feelings of romantic love, not in single instance of occurrence, but in being repeated consistently. He even knew that there would be a difference i between what men found to be stimulus toward directed happiness/love/intimacy/connectedness and what women considered from the same standpoint.

What came as a total surprise, according to what he has said, is that the difference was so radical and so polarized. The things that women needed from a relationship in order to feel romantic love were not the same things that men needed, but even more astounding was the fact that the lists weren't just ordered differently, they didn't include the same things on the lists.

Now we all know that the "typical" male and the "typical" female are only statistical constructs and not all men respond exactly the same way and that all women are not the same as each other either. But the typical male has SF near the top of his list, usually within the top 3 and almost always within the top 5. For the typical woman it is usually in the bottom 5 and in many cases within the bottom three, assuming the ten ENs identified by Dr Harley and enumerated in his body of work.

What this leads to is that men have to do things they have no interest in doing, no experience with valuing, no general understanding of why they are important to his wife.

But the reverse is also true. Women generally have a hard time getting it when it comes to understanding what men want, like, value, experience, feel and what causes them to value, experience, feel etc those things.

So a man does NOT naturally meet the need for conversation. It isn't one of his needs and does NOT establish large Love Bank balances for him. Affection to him IS a sexual act because SF is one of HIS needs. Financial support whenever brought up makes a man feel like he is only valued for his paycheck. Family commitment is meaningless to a man who feels that he is showing full commitment to his family by working longer hours to provide that paycheck that he has come to realize is one of his wife's needs.

To man, intimacy is spelled s.e.x. To a woman, it is spelled s.h.a.r.e. (again, we are talking statistical constructs here and broad generalizations that must be used in demonstration of the idea rather than describing all women or all men)

A woman needs to feel connected to enjoy sex. I get this. I really do. A man needs sex to feel connected. The chemical responsible for a feeling of connectedness is vasopressin and in men it is at its highest levels right after orgasm.

The bonding chemical is oxytocin. In women it is at its highest levels minutes before birth. It crosses the placental barrier and shuts down the cognitive and memory functions of the baby preventing trauma with long term implications from the birth process. It also cause the mother to become instantly bonded to her baby when he is placed on her chest after birth.

Estrogen modifies the effects of oxytocin to cause a nurturing instinct whereas in men, the testosterone causes the man to become territorial and willing to sacrifice for his offspring and what he considers his.

But in a man the highest levels of oxytocin occur within about 15 seconds of orgasm, just as levels of dopamine (the happy drug) drops and serotonin levels (the well being chemical) peak over the next few minutes. So sex for a man is how he gets connected, bonded and feels good in general.

Vasopressin also peaks in women within a few seconds after orgasm as dopamine levels begin to drop. So enjoyment of sex can lead to a feeling of connectedness in both men and women.

Affection, conversation and recreational companionship (the other intimate emotional needs) all increase dopamine levels. But dopamine modified by testosterone is what drives sexual attraction and arousal in BOTH sexes. For women there is less testosterone and so the buildup is more gradual.

When you have sex with your husband it is during and following that act that he feels closest to you, connects with you on a level he does not connect with anyone else on the planet in an even remotely similar way and feels bonded to you afterward like he feels at no other time in his life. For him, RC was the biggest draw pre-sex days and not conversation. Affection led eventually to sex and that was because it stimulated his sex drive as well as yours, due to the physical attractiveness caused by raised levels of testosterone.

BTW, since oxytocin in the presence of high levels of estrogen causes a nurturing instinct to predominate,
as a woman becomes bonded to her husband she tends toward wanting to take care of him more than she wants to have sex with him

So a woman doesn't have the interest in sex to begin with because she has lower levels of testosterone than a man but also because of her high levels of estrogen becoming bonded to her husband actually causes her sex drive to decline. This can reverse in the mid to late 30s when a woman's estrogen levels begin to drop and the relative balance between estrogen and testosterone shifts more toward the testosterone side of things.(Still highly estrogen oriented, however.)

This is why more women have affairs in their 30s and 40s where as men tend to have affairs before they turn 30 when testosterone is at it's highest and they have not yet learned to establish a strong enough bond to their relatively new wife.

So there is the scientific research end of why sex is more important to men than to women.

An old line but one I think applies is this: Men marry women hoping that they will never change. Women marry men hoping that they will change. Both end up disappointed.

At work, so replies may be sporadic at best...

Mark

A good reply as always Mark. I am limited in my abilities to respond because I;ve got kiddos needing me a lot today. But I want to go back to that Buyer Renter Freeloader quiz.

BTW, I am fascinated by homrones because I am natural birth junkie. I unerstand the female side VERY well because of this, but the male side not so much.

Also, my experience of guys prior to my husband is that conversation was a top EN for them too, so the fact that it is not for my husband is a struggle for me because my experience of men is that conversation is important to them. I realize that my husband is very normal. And yet his is also outside the norm of what I have experienced with men, both as romantic partners as well as the men in my family.

OK, I filled out the questionairre and am going to print the questions and my answers here:



Buyer: 1 FALSE/9 TRUE

Renter: 3 FALSE/7 TRUE

Freeloader: 7 FALSE/ 3 TRUE

So the good news is I am definitely NOT much of a freeloader. But apparently I am pretty conflicted about whether I am a buyer or a renter. Makes sense. I don�t mind buying a house because if I don�t like it after being in it for a while, I am totally OK with selling rather than fixing depending on what the problems are and whether the investment is worth it.

Hold, I would love to see your answers to this quiz. I bet you are more of a buyer than you think


OK, let the 2x4's and self justifcations in response fly!

I don't think anyone answered Chris's question.

Do we fake it till we make it with sex?

I know if my husband thinks I am only having sex to satisfy his need, he would rather not have it. He wants me to desire him. The only way I will desire him is if he meets my EN, so the onus is on him in this scenario.

Answer True or False to the following 30 questions:

1. If I am getting less than I need from _______ (name of spouse/significant other), it�s reasonable for me to expect him or her to sacrifice his or her happiness for my fulfillment. FALSE

2. Romantic relationships require a certain amount of give and take, but what I give to _______ should be worth what I take. In other words, I should be able to get out of this relationship what I put into it. TRUE

3. If we are right for each other, _______ will not want me to change. FALSE

4. I will be in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______ for life. TRUE (ideally I would answer true, but I am conflicted over this, so I feel that right now the most honest answer is False)

5. I am willing to sacrifice my happiness once in a while to satisfy _______ if he or she is willing to sacrifice his or her happiness once in a while to satisfy me. TRUE

6. I should do for _______ only whatever comes naturally to me. FALSE

7. Our romantic relationship is fatally flawed if _______ does not accept me as I am. TRUE

8. The goal of my romantic relationship with _______ is for us both to be happy and fulfilled with each other. For that reason, we must both learn to do everything with each other�s interests and feelings in mind. TRUE

9. If _______ expects me to do something in return for his or her care of me, we are probably not right for each other. FALSE

10. If what I get in my romantic relationship with _______ isn�t worth what I give, he or she should either give me more, or I should end the relationship to find someone who can give me more. TRUE

11. Solutions to the problems that _______ and I face should be long-term solutions that satisfy both of us. TRUE

12. _______ should not expect me to have a permanent romantic relationship with him or her. FALSE

13. Criticism from _______ should not cause me to try to change my behavior. It should cause me to consider ending our romantic relationship. FALSE

14. If _______ has a problem with some aspect of our romantic relationship, we should both work together to find a solution that we can permanently adopt. TRUE

15. Even though I am presently in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______, it�s reasonable for me to compare him or her to others who may meet my needs more effectively. TRUE

16. _______ and I should learn how to make each other happy without sacrificing our own happiness to do it. TRUE

17. It�s reasonable for _______ to expect me to do something in return for what he or she does for me. TRUE

18. The decisions that _______ and I make should make both of us happy and fulfilled. TRUE

19. If _______ criticizes me, it means that he or she is probably not right for me. FALSE

20. A short-term sacrifice may be necessary for me to learn a new habit or create a lifestyle change that accommodates _______ . But if I am not eventually happy with the habit or lifestyle change, I should not continue to make the sacrifice. TRUE

21. If _______ criticizes me, he or she simply wants me to give more to compensate for what I am taking from him or her. So it�s reasonable for me to give more to him or her if I feel that he or she is giving enough to compensate me for my effort. TRUE

22. If _______ wants me to do things for him or her that I don�t feel like doing, he or she is probably wrong for me. FALSE

23. The mutual enjoyment and fulfillment that _______ and I share is more important than what either of us regards as fairness. TRUE

24. _______ may be right for me now but may be wrong for me later if he or she meets my needs now but fails to meet them at a later stage of my life. FALSE

25. When my needs or those of _______ change, both of us should make adjustments in our habits and lifestyle to accommodate the new needs so that our romantic relationship can be fulfilling to both of us throughout life. TRUE

26. _______ should not expect me to have an exclusive romantic relationship with him or her. FALSE

27. My romantic relationship with _______ should last as long as I feel it is fair. FALSE

28. I should be in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______ only as long as he or she is meeting my emotional needs. FALSE

29. If _______ were critical of me, it would indicate that an adjustment of my habits and lifestyle are required until the change would satisfy him or her. TRUE

30. If _______ is right for me, he or she will make me happy without my having to put much effort into making him or her happy. FALSE


Buyer 11
Renter 6
Freeloader 1

So what's the final verdict Chris? You a Buyer, Renter or Freeloader? A little of each, like me?

Looks like I am strongly in the Buyer category....with some Renter tendencies.

But that could be a result of MB training Who knows how that would have turned out 2 months ago.

I was a renter all the way a few months ago

I am about evenly split between Buyer and Renter. When we first got married I would have been more strongly tilted toward Buyer. Now I find it tougher to say I am committed to changing "until she stops complaining" or "until she is satisfied". At this point, there are limits on how far I will go. If she is still unhappy or unsatisfied at that point, too bad for both of us. I realize that means my needs will go unmet. So? BTDT. At some point trying to help her feel happy and satisfied feels to me like slamming my head against a brick wall. I am sure she feels the same way.

The MB system works when both spouses are Buyers. When both will keep working to get to success no matter what it takes. When neither will settle for less. To me one of the key lessons from MB is that you don't need to find another spouse to get there. It isn't about BEING compatible. It is about CREATING compatibility. So if you want happiness and fulfillment, work toward it with your current spouse. On the other hand, some of us ARE willing to settle for less. MB cannot overcome that.

Think,

But that assumes that meeting his ENs is less important than him meeting yours.

That is what I was trying to convey. SF is an emotional need...

JUST like Conversation.
JUST like Affection.
JUST like Financial Support.
JUST like Family Commitment.
JUST like Honesty and Openness.
JUST like Recreational Companionship.
JUST like Admiration.
JUST like Domestic Support.
JUST like Physical Attractiveness.

In the same way a Disrespectful Judgment (wrongly judging intent) is a Love Buster...

JUST like Angry Outbursts...
Or Independent Behavior.
Or Selfish Demands.
Or Annoying Habits.
Or Dishonesty.

Not meeting his needs of SF and Admiration FEEL the same way to him as not providing Family Commitment and Conversation FEEL to you.

The SOLUTION is POJA...

In SF.
In RC.
In Conversation.
In FC.
In FS.
In Physical Attractiveness.
In Affection.
In Honesty.
In DS.
In Admiration.

In ALL things related to the relationship.

Full ENTHUSIASTIC agreement.

Not rejection.
Not refusal.
Not demanding.
Not Independent Behavior.

When I began Plan A I started out knowing that one of my wife's top ENs was Conversation.

She didn't want to talk to me at all...
She was in Withdrawal.
She wanted to talk to OM.

I didn't want to talk to her much either...
I wanted choke her to death with my bare hands.
I wanted to scream at her.
I wanted to make her PAY for hurting me.

When my Taker tried to enter the conversation I stopped talking because even though I was hurting, if I made her hurt more then I was not going to have her be in love with me again and she was going to leave and run to OM. They never would have married. She never would have been happy with him. She would have lasted about a month with him every day and then would have been done with him because he was a serial cheater who drank himself into a stupor nearly every day. His wife was NOT going to divorce him because THAT would have made his life too easy.

NOTHING changed for WEEKS. I dropped about 20 pounds just from not eating (I started at just under 200 pounds at 6'4" tall). I slept about two hours per night for almost three months. I was ineffective at work. I was worthless to the church. I did NOTHING in the way of hobbies, past times or things I'd always enjoyed because NOTHING mattered any more.

I did not know if Plan A would save my marriage. I did not know if we would be divorced by the end of the year. I did not KNOW if I would lose everything I worked for my entire life or if I even had a place to live if we divorced.

I DID know that I had not been the husband she needed. I had NO (zero, zilch, zip, nada, none) control over anything she did or how she responded to what I did. I did have control over who and what I was, not for her, but for me. I stopped trying to fix our marriage and I fixed ME.

I discovered that we were both passive aggressive. I used guilt. She used withdrawal and silence.

What do we have in common?

My HOBBIES most of my life have been science, math, philosophy, reading (non-fiction), culture. I'm a photographer, but my world of photography revolved around the darkroom the technology, the hardware. I fish, but I study the behavior of bass, the feeding habits of bluegills, the bottom contours of lakes and the PH, clarity and salinity of the water in the local lakes.

She paints. She writes. Goes to look at houses we'll never be able to afford. She has a twin sister that calls before the sun comes up and again just before time for bed. When SIL stubs her toe, my wife limps.

I talked. I held her hand. I stopped my own AOs even when she was still doing her own IB thing as recently as within the past month. I met her ENs as much as she'd allow me to do it and I showed her the man that I could be. I became the man that she needed.

After a few MONTHS of me giving but never getting, not trying to take, keeping my Taker under house arrest, she began to see what I really was and who I really was. I supported her sister through marrying a guy who died 30 days later. I supported her twin through marrying a guy who was the first really nice guy she'd ever even dated two days after the funeral for the other sister's husband who had died after 30 days of marriage. And through it all I was there for my wife, meeting her ENs, avoiding my own love busting behaviors and supporting her through withdrawal symptoms that resulted from ending contact with OM, a guy she had fallen in love with because he talked to her and told her she was special.

She eventually began to meet MY ENs. Not all at once. Honesty and Openness was a struggle which for a BS jumps to number one on the list after D-day. She still struggles with IB but now I can tell her it is IB and she adjusts, makes arrangements to become compatible rather than pushing me away and doing whatever she wants without regard for my feelings.

We're NOT perfect. We aren't even close to perfect. We still both Love Bust sometimes. We both still have to ask for what we need sometimes. We still hurt each other sometimes. But now we are on the same team and working together to adjust, become compatible, meet each other's ENs, do away with annoying habits, stop the SDs, DJs and AOs that our Takers want to use. It has become easier over time because as MY Love Bank began to fill up, I wanted even more to make her happy and do things for her, to Give and to GET instead of giving and TAKING.

Marriage is NOT a 50/50 proposition. It is a 100/100 thing. I give 100% and she gives 100% or at least that is our goal. I want her to be happy and she wants me to be happy and neither of us has to wait to be happy in order to start trying.

But at first it was really and truly just me with no commitment, no promise, no input, no reciprocity from her side at all. She did not want to save the marriage. She wanted the marriage to end. She did not LOVE me, she HATED me. Her heart was not full of compassion, care, empathy but ANGER, HATRED, RESENTMENT and ENTITLEMENT. She wanted HER to be happy. She didn't care about me at all. OM was made her happy and all I made her was sick to her stomach. (Keep in mind that we had been married for almost 33 years at that point and our marriage was the standard that was shown to the community, the church, family and friends. OUR relationship was the reason her older and twin sisters were even trying again, #4 for both of them.)

When BOTH Love Banks are empty, when both spouses are in Withdrawal, when BOTH spouses are walking Independent Behavior machines, somebody has to go first. NEITHER going first means nothing changes. It means everything stays just like it is. It means the same thing goes on with no change at all. How's THAT been workin' for ya?

Not in one try. Changes have to be shown that they are likely to be permanent before any change in perception can be generated.

Not overnight. The marriage didn't get this bad in a day, a week or a month or even a year so it can't get all fixed in that time either.

Good enough usually becomes good enough. Fit for use eventually replaces desire for perfection. Forgiveness for the past can be granted in the near future instead of being banked to use as justification for future wrongs. Love becomes a feeling instead of just a verb...

Having a great marriage isn't finding the right person. It isn't creating the right person. It isn't getting the right person.

A great marriage comes form BEING the right person...

If I get time later I'll give you my biblical narrative explaining what I think marriage is supposed to be...The whole thing comes from the story of the first marriage in but a handful of verse in but one chapter of Genesis. (well, maybe a few other passages thrown in for reinforcement)

I can also give you my world view in a single paragraph and will add that as well...

Mark

What a fabulous post Mark.

I'm bookmarking it!

I know I'll need to read that over and over again.

I would really like to hear your world view, your view of marriage, etc. You make me think and challenge me better than most people in real life.


Ultimately I believe you are right about this.

The problem is that I have never loved my the man I'm married to enough to become the right person for him. I haven't even loved myself enough to become the right person for ME. And I barely love God enough to become the right person for HIM.

That last one I have the courage to do, because I know that God loves me even if I don't become the "right" person. He cares that I do my best even if it isn't THE best I could do if I were living up to my potential.

I believe I have it in me to love someone enough to give 100% even if they couldn't. I know I do because I've done it before, just not in a marriage relationship. Ultimately he ended the relationship because he knew he wasn't capable of giving me what he believed I deserved. It was a courageouse act of character. Wish I had had that kind of courage and character when my husband proposed. Because I knew.

Today I could make a different choice. But I don't want to because I know I am not ready. I'm not healthy and whole enough on my own terms. My husband doesn't want a divorce, so waiting isn't a risk for me in that way. He wants to cake eat. And maybe so do I. But right now, I have a lot to deal with in terms of taking care of myself, and that comes before our marriage. If that means that there's no marriage left when I am done taking care of my eating disorder and begin to find serenity as a regular part of my life, I am willing to live with that consequence. I am willing to take care of myself at the expense of my marriage. Not very MB, I suppose, but it's where I honestly am right now, and I am very at peace with it.

Maybe MB is not the place for me to be posting. After all, I guess I'm not really interested in saving my marriage as much as I am internested in making sure I don't leave any stone unturned. Maybe at the point that I am 100% committed, not just for "one day at a time", but for forever, then I should come back and give it another go. Maybe then I'll be ready to take drastic action.

Today, I take the action I can. I know it's halfmeasures. But it's better than no measures at all. Progress not perfection.

Maybe I need another break

Well, think, when I saw you had called ME out to read this thread, I felt humbled. Now I feel....wow J/K

So many of the feelings you voice sound like mine, although some of our EN's are different. I call myself- tongue in cheek - a freak of nature at times because I need MUCH SF...MUCH. And H doesn't. But I think the "rules" apply no matter what the EN. I think. I honestly confess that in those weak, stretched-out, sad moments I am not at all sure. And when I read a post like Mark's long one (which one?!?), and I think about doing exclusive "giving" for months with not a breath from the other side of the aisle, I shudder. Now aren't you glad you asked for my thoughts? ha!

Seriously, I am with you on a lot. I finally think I have the courage to renew and strengthen my real commitment to God, because I know HOW he loves. And I MUST work on me. I won't threadjack, but it became very clear to me recently that I cannot push that aside. For H....I want to. I have been trying to. I am not sure of the outcome. But I am going to...and I am not going to think about doing it for months. I am going to thinking about doing it for a moment. An hour. An evening. A day. And I guess that those would be my thoughts for you. Don't think about forever right now. Try to meet your H's EN's that you can for tonight. Then tomorrow. Then next week....Be O&H. If you slip up, shake your head, whisper a colorful word, and then forget it. These are the things I am doing. We can both see how they go.

You say that you never felt you loved your H enough to do the things you feel you need to do now. I will confess something on here for the first time....I know that feeling. I was engaged to someone else in college (no relationship overlap). I was head over heels for the entire time. I could barely keep from crossing "that line" that would make me no longer pure. I had never felt those things. I LOVED him with every cell. It didn't work for various reasons. I had known H for a long time. And yes, I did fall in love with him. I had strong feelings for him. He was not as "physically oriented," and I had other small concerns, but I really truly believed that once we were married and sex was "allowed" we would make up for lost time. Those other concerns would disappear. And we have had many great years...okay several, and many good. I do not and never have pined over ex-fiance or anyone else. I never really consciously compared. But yes, it is different. So I know what you mean.

I have hope (call me Pollyanna if you like) that we CAN have that passion, love, connection. I have to have hope. Because I know that outside our own excuses it is there. I think based on reading your thread that it is there for you too. The ingredients are there.

One of my additional long term goals now is for us to read each other's thread in three months, six months, this time next year, and be amazed at how great our marriages are, how hot we are for our H's, and how hot they are for us!!

When man and woman were first created by God, man (and woman) did not have a conscience because they didn't need one. The only rule was to walk with God and have relationship with Him. But Man (and woman) listened to the devil who deceived them into believing that it was being able to know the difference between right and wrong that made God who He was. So they bought the lie and chose to believe that they could be like that themselves and actually know and decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong. When they made that choice the relationship, the ability to walk with God Himself, was broken beyond repair for they were now destined to struggle to try to find their way on their own.

So God created the world. He made Man in His own image and He made the woman from out of the man to be a companion for the man but the man and woman chose to not follow God but their own choices for their own lives. The entirety of the remaining books and stories recorded in the bible is the implementation of God's plan for the world for the purpose of or restoring the relationship that was broken when the man and woman chose to run away from him and try to find their own way in life.

That is my entire world view in as few words as I can manage. So it was two paragraphs. Sue me...

Mark

Wow Mark thanks for sharing that, it makes a lot of sense.

God's plan was for the man to be like Him and part of that being like God was to be able to experience relationship with others. (vesre 18)

Nothing God had already made pleased the man enough for him to be satisfied with a relationship with that creature so God decided to make something special, just for the purpose of relationship and to be a helper, a partner and completer for the man. She came from Man so Man needs her in his life to be complete and to complete his calling before God. She came not from his head that she might rule over him, not from his foot that she might be dominated by him nor from his hands that she might have to serve him.

She came from his side that she might be his equal, his partner, his mate.(verses 19-21)

So now we see the first marriage...

Two things that are apparent to me from the rest of this passage are:

1) God brought the man and woman together.
2) The man recognized at once that this creature was a part of himself. She was in fact the fulfillment of all that he needed and all that he lacked in himself. She did after all come from him and in her he was complete.

Marriage was intended to be between one man and one woman brought together by God for the purpose of being partners and together fulfilling the will of God that neither could accomplish completely alone. Part of that purpose was to have relationship, with God and with each other.

Marriage requires separation from family and the starting of a new family together as husband and wife.

It requires that it be intended to be forever (it requires attachment and unity - KJV uses the words cleave unto. It implies a full attachment like when a branch is grafted onto a vine or a tree. The best of BOTH the branch and the vine are brought to the fruit. The hardiness of the root combines with the fruitfulness of the branch and together they produce what neither can produce of and unto themselves).

It means they are no longer individuals but are now part of something bigger created for a higher purpose than either one's goals, wants, needs or desires.

It is the combination of two whole(not broken or parts missing) individuals into one mysterious and remarkable entity.

They were naked before each other without shame. That is, they had nothing to hide and hid nothing. Nothing was withheld from each other. Complete and total honesty marked their union and neither felt any shame in being known to the other fully, completely, flaws and all. They were for each other and had nothing with which to compare and so become unsatisfied with what they had.

They had no reason for conscience since they were in relationship with each other and with God. They had no need for coverings to hide behind because they had innocence that came from being honest, open, up front and unashamed because neither had ever done anything to be ashamed of.

They had no need for boundaries or opinions because they lived in complete union with each other. They had no reason to protect themselves because neither had any hidden agenda that would harm them.

Everything either had, the other had as well. There was no need to save for they both had all they needed and their only purposes were to care for each other and to have relationship with God and each other.

They were alone, but for God, in the most beautiful place the world has ever known. They spent all of their time together for the man did not have to work and the children that had not yet come along were not a higher priority. Together they did everything, honestly, openly, for no ulterior motive and they did it all in God's presence.

That was what marriage was supposed to look like when God came up with the plan. The plan was perfect. The plan did not fail them, they failed the plan.

In the very next chapter we see that they each made choices that led to the violation of God's one rule for them. The woman was deceived by one of the most beautiful things God had ever made who had already violated that rule and had already broken his own relationship with God. The man, of his own free will chose to eat the same poisoned fruit, the choice between right and wrong, the entitlement and self justification that led to death. Death came spiritually at once. Death physically came later but just as certainly.

And God came up with another plan. When the man and woman hid because they were now ashamed, when they now needed to be covered because they could no longer be open and honest and innocent, God's plan was to clothe them. He made clothing from animal skins. Animals died to cover the sinfulness of the man and woman. A substitute had to die in order for the man and woman to live.

Thus God's plan of subsitutionary sacrifice culminating in a chosen people, demonstrating God's way of living to the world yet still refusing to do things God's way. And from that people came a new Man who while being fully Man was also fully God so that God Himself could provide the substitute so that man could once again walk with God and with his wife unashamed, naked, with nothing hidden and yet still loved.

Now you have an idea where I am coming from when I talk about marriage.

At least a peak...

Mark

Thanks everyone, especially Lurioosi. Called you over here because I know you have a different perspective. Actually, I also have SF as a top need, but not SF in the physical sense. I want the whole package or nothing. Black and white thinking. I gotta get beyond that, and "action" isn't really working because I've been trying to do the feelings follow actions thing with SF since getting married, even on our wedding night, and it hasn't happened in 9 years. Granted, most of that has been without the perspective and language of MB. But I had always been a very sexual person in my teens and 20s, even before actually having intercourse. I was crushed when I was finally married and it was finally "OK" and I ended up having so much pain that first year, when it had never been a problem before.

I went to a meeting tonight, topic Martyrdom. How perfect

What I realize is that for now, even if I do the bare minimum in our marriage, just preventing my own LB, I am making an improvement. The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. I can take it one step at a time. I can go at my own pace. Even if I do nothing else with MB except take care of me by being honest and having boundaries, I will be improving our relationship. Improvement may look like a healthy marriage, and improvement may look like something else. Only God knows.

Mark, I really appreciate you sharing your theology of life. I need to let it sink in, because it's not the kind of thing one can simply respond to off the cuff. It deserves more. But it seems to mesh very well with my 12-step program, the crux of which is to turn my will and my life over to a power greater than myself, and to pray only for knowledge of his will and the power to carry it out, not forever, but just for today. That's all I need to do.

It's interesting because in my Catholic faith we celebrate the Easter Vigil on Saturday evening before Easter Sunday, which is when we baptize new members of the church who have been preparing for about a year. The service is several hours long, and starts with the reading about creation, then adam and eve, then a reading from exodus, then something from the epistles, and finally the gospel, the resurrection. (My church does those readings, others do the full set, which is even longer.) It is exactly what you describe . . . the story of sin, the story of covenant, the story of fulfillment. It is my favorite service of the year.

One quick thing to add before I go to bed. What strikes me most about the adam and eve story (aside form everything that you shared so beautifully Mark) is that when God caught them with their hands in the cookie jar, Adam's first reaction was blame. And not just blame of the woman. Not, he blamed GOD!


It's one of those things about the story that is often missed.

Sort of how folks miss the whole point when someone tells them..."You can only control yourself."

"I would be better at ___, if he would only do ___."

I know I've heard that before...

"I isn't MY fault he took it the wrong way."

I wonder where I saw that before...

"If you would just ___, then I would ___."

Where was that thread?

Help me out here, Think...

Mark

Points taken, Mark.

This morning I woke up thinking "I'll be a buyer if he becomes a buyer." That's basing my actions on something I can't control. Either I'll be a Buyer, or a Renter, and I get to live with the consequences either way.

I need to act "as if" I'm a Buyer, even though I'm not. I need to do it for me, to know that I can.

You need to become a buyer...

Buyers act like buyers because they are buyers. Renters act like renters because they are only temporary residents.

It's a different way of thinking rather than just a different way of acting. The actions come from how we think and so what is real on the inside is what comes out.

The bible talks about this idea in so many ways. The word repent for example means literally, "to think again." Jesus talks about how it isn't what a man puts into his mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of it. Joshua and all of Israel are told to dwell on the things of God day and night, teach them to their children, remember and think about them when coming an going etc...The New Testament talks about the renewing of our minds. Christians are told that we are a new creation.

We simply cannot choose how we feel. We can PRETEND to feel a different way but that does NOT lead to changed feelings. When we talk about faking it till you make it we aren't talking about pretending to feel differently. We are talking about acting as if we did feel that way because the action is the right thing to do in order to gain the feeling. But in order to accomplish that doesn't just require a change in actions. It requires that we start to think about doing the right things instead of the old flawed thought process we used to dwell on.

If I think about doing something to show care for my wife and then let that lead me down the road of negative thoughts I can end up with something that has no value to either of us. This morning I fixed breakfast for her. As I was cutting up the potatoes I thought briefly about the days within the first week after D-day when I would cook for her. I was reminded of this in part because I have shared a bunch of that period in recent days both here and with IRL folks I am trying to help. But rather than continue thinking about how I lost 20 pounds in three weeks by only eating when she was around and I was cooking for her, I realized that my cooking for her at that time was in fact one of the things I did that brought her back to the marriage. Now I cook for her because she likes it when I do. I do it because it shows her that I love her. She feels love when I make breakfast (not talking about donuts and coffee here gang...)

When I was cooking breakfast for her three weeks after I had confronted her, I wasn't thinking about how cooking for her would bring her back to me. What I was thinking was that if I was going to show her what the marriage really was, as opposed to the fantasy of the affair which was hardly real in any way, then cooking was a part of achieving my goal.

In business we talk about a company having a vision. From that vision flows the mission. Often people confuse the two, but they are really quite separate and different things.

If my vision is a restored, healthy, happy, fulfilling marriage with my wife, then the things I do must all work toward the accomplishment of that goal. So my vision is what sets the goal, establishes the definition of what my treasure, yet unrealized and even unseen, will be and look like when I get there. For my wife to be on board with this and for me to be able to get there I need to show her the treasure so that she knows what it will look like and give her sufficient reason to try to get it with me.

My MISSION is what I will do in order to gain my prize. If my vision says WHY I am doing it, my MISSION says HOW I am going to get there. So from my mission flows every action that I do as long as I am focused on the vision and not on the challenges I encounter along the way.

Example for you... The marriage ministry I am trying to build at our church, not solely as a branch or arm of our church nor just for our own congregation or even really just for Christians has a vision, a mission, a purpose and specific goals that flow from why I am bothering with any of this at all.

My Vision Statement reads: That is WHY I do what I do. It flows from the vision and mission of our church.

My Mission Statement: That is how I plan to accomplish my goal as set forth in my vision.

My purpose, which is what sets the pace and defines how I plan to go about accomplishing my mission says: This is what I am going to do to achieve my mission. It is the process and my plan.

I then set a goal for my Wednesday night MB class: So deciding that I was teaching MB to a bunch of people wasn't the treasure but merely the means.

Dr Harley's stated vision is This website, his books, his research, his counseling service, his radio program...everything he does is designed to accomplish the reason he even bothers.

So when we begin to try to change our marriage we must first of all change our focus. Our goals are set too short. We become too myopic. We seek to FIX our spouse. We want to FEEL the feelings. We want to CHANGE the dynamic.

But those are all just way points. They aren't the goal and when we can't perfectly execute these little steps we wander back and forth across the path, heading down rabbit trails, losing site of the really important things and losing hope because we took a shot and missed.

But if our prize becomes not all of this minutia but the marriage of our dreams, then everything we do must point to, focus on and lead to that end point.

This is where our thinking must change in order for us to get where we want to go. We get sidetracked by the issues, the challenges, the failures that occur daily. In focusing on what is wrong we lose sight of what or prize really is. If we can think about the prize instead of the process, then we can design the process to accomplish the prize.

Dr Harley realized early in his research that this was why traditional marriage counseling was failing. The process focused on what made marriages fail rather than on what made them work. By making conflict resolution the goal, couples end up doing nothing but having conflict. When communication becomes the goal couples can easily communicate why they are unhappy and why they want a divorce. Only MB focuses on making being in love with each other the solution to failing marriages. So all of his methods lead to, point toward and strive to accomplish that one single goal, helping a couple to fall in love and stay inn love.

So when I set as my end point as having a happy marriage, then it changes the way I do things because if what I am doing does not result in a happy marriage then I must change what I am doing, not as the product but as the process.

How do you carve a statue of an elephant? Your start with a block of stone and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant...

How do you create a MB marriage?

You start with the resources at hand and chip away everything that doesn't look like a MB marriage...You DO it to be in love with each other.

Focus on the prize and not the process. Change what you think about since where your mind goes is where you'll end up. When failures happen in the process, refocus on the prize so that you remember the REASON you are trying at all. Look at your kids and picture them when they are your age. What vision of marriage do you want them to have. When you think of watching your granddaughter walk down the aisle at the church to begin spending her life with the man she loves, what example of marriage do you want her to remember?

Build that marriage now, one piece at a time, one step at a time, one change at a time. Make THAT marriage your treasure and only do what will result in that end.

Chip away everything that doesn't look like you want her marriage to be...

Mark

I know this is slightly O/T, but in the hospital a couple of weeks ago, one of the group therapists referred to the 12 step program a lot. That was because it can be well-applied to MI too, not just addiction. Is there a really good place on the web or a really good book where I could learn more about this? Since I am not an addict, I wouldn't feel right actually going to AA - I'd feel like I was barging in in a way. But I would like to know more about it.

Mark, I want you to know I appreciate your expanded post about Adam and Eve and the spiritual side of all this. Why is it that we are often timid about mentioning the spiritual aspect? I really believe, the more I think about it, that my growing "lukewarmness" spiritually has hugely impacted my marriage overall.

Luri,



Look at the logo from this website for minute.

On the left side is a sort of triangle made up of three arrows. The two white ones indicate the two people in a marriage. The red central one is the marriage itself. At the top of the triangle is God.

As the two get closer to the top, they get naturally closer together. As the two become more a part of the one they get to be closer to each other. As the one gets closer to God the two become less distinct and more integrated into the one rather than remaining two.

Now I have NO idea if this was all what Dr H intended to signify. They are my observations having seen the explanation of marriage being like this based on the very same drawing many years ago.

A more secular concept could be that the two get closer to each other as they each get closer to the goal of a better marriage. Maybe that was his intended purpose.

But having heard the analogy used for many years with an almost identical drawing, I would guess he knew the same explanation when he used it.

I might be WAY off base here, but it still applies...

Mark

luri, here you go:

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm

And the 12/12 book is available online here:

http://www.aa.org/1212/

Luri, I would check out alanon. It's a 12 step program for anyone who has been affected by the disease of alcoholism. I went into the program believing there were no alcoholics in my immediate family, only folks in my husband's family and my distant family. Turns out it is a family disease and can affect generations who don't even have active drinkers (and also, as it turns out, there WERE active drinkers in my life, we were all in denial).

Anyway, as a support group it is probably going to be far more "comfortable" for you than AA. I would suggest trying 6 meetings (either 6 of the same or 6 different). I think sponsorship and reading literature is key, as well as actually working the steps. Many people just go to meetings to feel better, but don't do the work to get better.

I can't say enough about it. It has changed my life and enabled me to be here and to actually listen to what I am being told isntead of running to the hills . . .

Mark, your response is coming soon. Actually, not a response, 'cause I got nothing but gratitude. But an update.

OK, a question (aimed at Mark because he brought it up, but open to all):

Can't change my feelings, and changing actions is not enough to become a buyer. So I must change my thinking. How do I do that?

I'm really not trying to be a smarta$$. It is a very serious question. Because to me, that's like asking a conservative to think like a progressive, or vice versa. Each of their totally opposite agendas and actions make logical sense if viewed through the lens of their thinking. Neither side is willingly going to surrender their thinking just to be "in line" with the goal of the other side, right?

You do it by focusing on the vision. Keep achieving the goal in mind at all times.

Before doing anything you ask yourself, "Does this get me closer to what I want? Does it support my vision for the future?" If the answer is "No" then you don't go down that road.

After a while it becomes a habit and you begin to see what needs to be done in order to accomplish what you set out to do. Your thinking changes because you begin to think about what you do BEFORE you do it.

You stop inputting stuff that tells you that you need to be happy no matter what the cost. You quit listening to things that tell you that love is magic. You give up the things that have told you all your adult life that men are only trying to control you for their own benefit.

You start thinking about what your H's ENs might be. You start considering how you can meet those needs. You look at ways that you can maximize deposits into his Love Bank and minimize withdrawals.

You don't tell yourself "I'll sacrifice for a while and if I don't feel any different in a few weeks I'll go find happiness." You tell yourself "WE need to make this work so that WE can both be happy being married to each other."

You follow POJA because POJA will get you what you want and will also get you what you need. You follow PORH because it will let you express exactly how you feel when he does something that hurts you instead of stuffing it down to save for later when you need a justification to return the hurt. You work out a way to spend time with him so that not only can you meet his ENs but he can meet yours as well. You give care, time, protection and honesty and get all the same in return. You stop having to take because you are already getting.

Not overnight.
Not in a week.
Not in a month.
Maybe not even in a year...

NOT saying give without getting in return. Give and see what comes back. But make the giving focused. Do what will make his Giver come out instead of challenging his Taker to a duel of selfishness.

You change your thinking by choosing to think about things in a different way.

When he does something to annoy you instead of lowering the boom, you make a thoughtful request rather than a selfish demand. You meet his ENs b4ecause they are things that he needs instead of explaining how your ENs aren't being met.

You decide that you want a marriage that will be fulfilling, happy, dynamic, growing and wonderful. Stop doing things that do NOT result in what you want. THAT is the chnage in thinking that must happen. If it does not promote my goal, I will not engage in it.

NOT based on how I feel today but on what I know will get what I want in the long run.

Any help?

Mark

Yes, that does help, Mark.


This is very much the direction my sponsor gave me in making decisions. Only the question is �Will this help or hurt my recovery (personal, not marriage)?�

I think asking, �Does this get me closer to my vision of marriage? Will this hurt or help my personal recovery?� will be my two guiding questions. Personal recovery comes first, because I know that I can�t have a healthy marriage unless I am coming to it as a whole person, rather than looking for him to �complete� me. I�m sure there will be times when the answers to those two questions may be opposing, so in that case, I will turn it over to God and ask him to �bless it or block it,� another decision making tool I�ve been practicing using.


The good news is that I HAVE been doing this (albeit imperfectly) and my husband IS noticing a difference. He has said so. He doesn�t understand why I�m so happy (which is because I save my negative venting for the boards and for other understanding ears) when we are so obviously in conflict with each other. He doesn�t understand why I�m being so �nice� to him, and he frankly doesn�t like it. He doesn�t trust it. He thinks I�m either trying to manipulate him or that I�m faking it. I really am NOT faking it. I have made a decision to be respectful towards EVERYONE, regardless of how they treat me. Again, ain�t perfect at it, but I am VER committed to this goal, and he should be at the top of the list of people I�m respectful and kind to.

Some of the �arguments� I�ve been making in this thread reflect his mindset even more than mine. Like the discussion about manipulation. Much of by questioning is driven my his questioning of me. When I first stumbled onto this site and read to him about POJA, the only thing he got out of it is that he has to �give up� something, not that we get to replace it with something better. I am not a big fan of conflict (been in withdrawl a LONG time!) but he is even less fond of it, as I�ve mentioned before. He wants to go straight to intimacy from withdrawl and bypass the conflict state. I understand that�s not how it�s done. We are different people, and we are bound to have conflict, and I�m OK with that because conflict is where I get to be honest (in a respectful way, of course). For him, conflict can result in only two outcomes: winning or losing. He wants to win, but doesn�t want the guilt of doing it at my expense. So he avoids the conflict altogether and just IBs. And I often do the same thing. That has been our marriage, and even our dating and engagement. We don�t know any other way. I want to learn better. Maybe as I learn better he will too.

I just want us to be on the same team, with the same goal. Right now, we�re not. So I guess I carry the water until he joins me. Care, time, protection and honesty in those buckets.

I love the analogy of carving the elephant. It got through to me. Thanks!

I'm hoping to scheudle a session with SH sometime in April. At this point, I can't afford more than one session a month, and even that will require a radical adjustment in the budget. We don't really have any "extra" left over after paying the mortgage, car payments, utilities and groceries, and we will not go into debt 'cause we cut up the credit cards (doing Daver Ramsey's program successfully for over a year now! YAY!)

My question is, should I have husband fill out LBQ now or wait until the session?

Also, a question about meeting EN. I know my focus right now should be about meeting his EN and putting my own on hold temporarily. He is also pretty aware of what some of my EN needs are, because he can repeat them back to me (even though he doesn't call them EN); he just refuses to meet them at this point. At what point do I bring that back up? Should I just wait for him to meet my needs, since he knows what they are? I don't want to badger him about my EN, but at the same time I don't think he will meet them if I don't say anything. But if I say something, even after a few months of doing my best at MB, he is likely to say, "See, I KNEW you were trying to manipulate me!"

I'm not posting this stuff to be difficult. I just see this as a pretty likely delimma, and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot unknowingly.

I�m recopying the questions and answers that reflect my renter or freeloader mindset, and my lack of buyer mindset. These are the areas where I need to change my thinking in order to be 100% buyer. Let the brainwashing begin (just kidding!).

I�m thinking that we should take one question at a time. Please help me chip away at this elephant!

So what is the fallacy of thinking this? Isn't this scenario exactly what the POJA strives to create . . . a situation in which what I give is worth what is given to me in terms of happiness without sacrificing? Isn't the point of POJA to create a win-win solution?

If we define marriage as a relationship in which both people give 100%, then wouldn't anything less on either side make it an unequal and unjust relationship? I'm not talking the occasional short term situation of one giving more than the other. I'm talking about the long-term relationship in which the giving is not 100% on both sides most of the time.

As in the case of my marriage, I don't think either one of us has ever given 100%. I think there are times when it FEELS like we are giving 100%, but we are giving 100% trying to meet the wrong EN. I know that is how my husband feels because he has said so:

"I've changed a lot since we have gotten married. Just not in the ways you want me to change."

So if I give 100% and am actually meeting the RIGHT EN as he states them, isn't he SUPPOSED to naturally want to give 100% to meet MY EN, so that ultimately what I give is what I get (in terms of %)?

I know it seems like I'm focused on the "getting" here, and that really isn't my point. I'm just trying to see where this mentality DOESNT'T fit with the "conditional nature" of the marriage relationship as Harley defines it.

Think,

Gotta get to church so not a lot of time now and UA time this afternoon so might be much later. (Not gonna fix it in one day anyway...)

What do YOU think is the piece that looks most UNlike a happy marriage? I have an opinion, but first I want to know what you think is the biggest hindrance to achieving your goal.

Mark

Posted while you were typing I guess...Is that what you see as the biggest problem in your relationship?

It does describe a misunderstanding of POJA which NEVER advocates compromise as it gets practiced in other relationships.

POJA is NOT about me getting less than I want and you getting less than you want until we are equally unhappy with what we are getting.

No time now...

I'll be back...

Think, I will be watching your thread closely for answers to these. And I guess I will go bite the bullet and take this true false quiz. I hate quizzes that I might not make a 100 on! Ha! Always the teacher.

Oh, and thanks Mark and CWMI for your posts yesterday!

Mark, do you mean to tell me that your life does not revolve around making me see the light, come hell or high water?




I do have some thoughts, but I think I need to let them gel a bit.

Luri, when I took that test I fully expected to see renter tendancies. What suprised me is that I have such strong buyer tendancies as well, more than I thought.

I think we label "renter" with a big black X. In fact, I think some of the renter mentality is VERY healthy when you are in the discernment stage of a relationship. I think my problem is that I never fully transitioned out of that stage into marriage. Our culture currently maintains that the renter mindset is the healthy way to proceed, and even religions can justify some of the renter mindset (unconditional love). So I don't think it's that unusual for most people to fall within that category unless they are well-versed in MB.

JMO!

No, I'm just going in order.


Oh, I do understand that this is not what POJA means. I understand that the goal of POJA is win-win 100% of the time. I just don't believe that is actually possible 100% of the time unless both people are buyers, and maybe even when both people are buyers it may sometimes be hard.

I have recopied the statement just so that I stay on topic.

I think this is my unerstanding of POJA: that I don't ever GIVE anything that I can't give enthusiastically. (Back to the sex topic, my POJA might be that unless I can meet the need for SF enthusiastically, then I shouldn't meet that EN, because that would be sacrifice. My "solution" has been that I enthusiastically engage in a minimum of 1 time per month in a non-fertile phase of my cycle. I have initiated more than that, though. I say "minimum 1 time per month" to prevent myself from getting so withdrawn that I have major aversion. Ultimately I see this increasing over time, but that is my starting point, what I can be enthusiastic about NOW.)

Let me rephrase the above statement to reflect my understanding of what it means to me:

Romantic relationships require mutual giving to meet each other�s EN (give and take), but what I give to meet his EN should be worth what he gives to meet my EN. In other words, I should be able to get out of this relationship what I put into it.

Mark, you asked what I see in this statement as being UNlike marriage. I have trouble seeing anything wrong with this way of thinking being incompatible with marriage as a conditional relationship. However, if I believed that marriage is an unconditional relationship, then I would see some problems with this line of thinking. As I understand it, one of the bedrock principles behind MB is that marriage is NOT an unconditional relationship, but one consitional upon mutual interdependence.

I read this and here is my conclusion. I feel you rejected the idea of romantic love because of your "failed" relationships before marriage. When you threw the baby out with the bathwater (the idea of romantic love being real) then, you ended up marrying someone who you were not naturally attracted to and were not naturally compatable with.

In order to stay with this man, you now have to deny all that you are.

On top of this, you try to use a method of birth control that is destined to fail.

I would look at your prioritites now if you are going to work on the marriage.

1. No more children
2. Work on areas of the marriage with husband
3. See if your H will work on the areas of marriage with you

I would get some foolproof birth control going. Or permanent birth contro. If you want temporary BC, use two types. Before i had my tubal ligation, I chose condoms and diaphram. Or the cap and condoms, or you could do the pill and condoms.

Is there a small part of you that ONLY wants sex once a month? In this case, your EXCUSE could be that you have to use that method of BC so sex is only once a month.

Are you attracted to this man at all?

Do you enjoy sex at all?

I am sorry you destroyed your life like this and married the wrong man. If you had waited and learned more about love, you could have had a chance to meet a man who was compatable with you and who you were attracted to. Yes both of these things exist within the same person.


Now your job, to make the marriage good, is a lot harder. But it can be done. I would not make more children however. That will make it even harder to work on the marriage due to lack of time and money.

I am putting myself in your shoes. If I chose to stay with a man I was not attracted to and not compatable with.... I would write down all the areas we are not compatable and hit them one by one.

If there is no abuse, addictions, and enough money to live, then you can try and solve one issue at a time.

I would write myself a list.

1___________
2____________
3_________

All the issues we are not compatable


Then a second list:

All the expectations I had of marriage


Then a third list:

Areas in our marriage that dissapoint me.

(These lists will all be slightly different with some overlap)


Then take the most important issue, or the most all encompassing issue, and work on just that one.

You got nothing to lose by trying.

Not much time right now. Waiting for my wife to be ready to go someplace.

Let me throw three words at you to think about...

Give

Take

Get

A fully functional romantic relationship according to the MB model is not GIVE and TAKE, but GIVE and GIVE when it comes to meeting ENs.

So rather than give and take it becomes give and get...

While it might be a viable premise that if I give something I should get something of equal value in return what this idea results in is withholding what I should be giving until I am getting something of equal value. Once we hit this dynamic in marriage we end up waiting for our spouse to go first in meeting our ENs and we never commit to giving what our spouse needs. It turns into a case of I will remain selfish until you stop being selfish.

When we talk about Care in the four pillars of MB we are talking about providing for the ENs of our spouse. We do what will make our spouse feel happy thus becoming their source of happiness. This it the word love used as a verb. It is not the feeling of love but is what Dr Harley calls "caring love."

What MB gives a couple as much as anything else is a vocabulary for enumerating, ranking and specifying what we need in order to be happy. Most often our spouse does not withhold what we need, he or she simply does not realize what it is that we need since our spouse usually has emotional needs that are completely different than what we need. The same is true for us; we did not first stop meeting our spouse's ENs because we were refusing to meet them, we stopped meeting them because we never knew what they were.

But once we know what our spouse needs from us, the only reason for not meeting them is a purposeful withholding of them. We are basically saying that we do NOT want our spouse to be happy unless and until he or she is making us happy.

So we provide Care by caring for our spouse, that is, providing him or her with what they need to be happy within the relationship.

This seemed so simple when we were dating, but for some reason we think we can stop doing this when we get married. It's like we don't understand that the reason we felt the way we did about our spouse was because they were doing stuff that made us happy. So when they stop doing those things we don't seem to be able to convey to them what we want because from our POV what is missing is the feeling. Since we thought the feeling was something that came about by some process that was out of any one's control and not as the result of what our spouse did, we began to believe that the feeling went away of its own accord as well, or more likely, we believe we never really felt like that and were mistaken when we thought we did.

So we stop meeting ENs because we don't feel like caring any more because we are no longer getting what we need to sustain those feelings. Be careful that you do not equate these feelings I refer to with sexual attraction since hardly ever does an affair or falling in love begin as purely sexual attraction for either the man or the woman. Many folks in an affair will say "It isn't about sex." They mean exactly that. It is about getting other ENs met. Seldom does that prevent an affair from becoming physical though because once people are in a state of Intimacy they WANT to begin meeting ENs in an effort to make the other person happy.

And this is where the whole process turns into garbage in many marriages. Something happens that I don't get my ENs met. Since I have no way to communicate that to my spouse properly in a way that my spouse can understand and get a handle on, I instead begin to allow my Taker to begin running my negotiation to get what I want. This means I use SDs, DJs, AOs and all the rest of the stuff my Taker is in charge of and actually make it LESS likely that my spouse will meet my ENs because now my spouse is also not in Intimacy but in Conflict and his/her Taker is stepping up to make sure that he/she is getting what he/she wants from me.

If neither of us is giving to the other, providing care for our spouse by meeting ENs in an effort to make him or her happy, if we wait until he/she is in a state of Intimacy and so willing to meet our needs how will we ever get our needs met. So meeting ENs becomes a case of giving in order to get rather than withholding from giving until we get. If we give and can communicate without hurting our spouse what it is we need, then by meeting our spouse's needs we will be able to get what we need without having to resort to taking.

That's what is so hard about this and why people have such a difficulty being first to start giving. It is this idea that I am entitled to get what I want in direct value and direct proportion to what I am giving and I must get it right up front. We only want to pay for what we already have. It is also what makes saving for retirement so hard for many people. We want to see value for what we invest and unless that value is in our hands, we can't see it.

If I buy a house, I get to take possession of that house as soon as I sign the papers. But seldom do I actually even own the house. I am going to be paying for it for a long time. If I stop paying for it, the bank has the right to come and take the house away from me. How long I paid before defaulting or how many times I paid more than was required as the minimum or how many years I got to live in the house before stopping making payments has nothing to do with getting to keep the house. If I default in the last month of my mortgage the bank has the same right to the house as if I had defaulted in the first month. I might have built more equity by defaulting later but that does not mean that I will get to keep the house.

Now where we get into problems is when we think the house should always be worth more than we agreed to pay initially. LOTS of folks have found themselves in this situation. They paid 350K for a house that today is worth only 300. For those who never intended to remain in the house but were only using the house as a way to build value or equity, this means they now are paying more than the value being returned to them. So many are defaulting on their loans just because the house dropped below what they agreed to pay for it.

Of course if they keep maintaining the house, putting in the added value of taking care of it, eventually the house is likely to be worth much more than it is worth and even worth more than what it was when they agreed to buy it. But the return on investment needs to be right now for them to see the value and so they are unwilling to make the payments and so will lose the house and look for something else that isn't so "upside down."

Short sighted strategy at best and one that is actually what is driving the housing prices downward instead of letting them recover. BTW, the ones most likely to do this were the ones who got the NINJA loans to start with. They actually borrowed more than the price of the house knowing that the loan was for more than the house was worth in hope that the house would be worth more fast enough that they could sell it and get a bigger one by the same process.

But in marriage, we need to consider not the short term benefits but the long term consequences of our choices. The feeling of love is NOT magic. It is not an accident. It isn't something that happens just by chance. When we agree to love someone (the verb) we aren't talking about the way we feel about them (love, the adverb). We are talking about showing care.

When the value of what we have agreed to pay drops below what we are paying we have two choices. One is to continue paying what is required in anticipation of the return to full value in the future. The second real option is to stop paying all together and let the deal collapse to go look for something we value more.

If we stop paying we are forfeiting our right to keep what we have already invested in and if we stop maintenance it will drop in value as time goes on. Renters don't pay for maintenance, only for direct one to one value. Of course when the lease ends, a renter has no right to remain unless the landlord is willing to allow them to stay.

That's the thing. A renter has no right to expect anything to change. Agreed upon value for what is willing to be paid is the only thing that counts. Just as the renter has the right to move on to something better, the one renting to them has the right to expect more from the property as well if any improvements are made. So a landlord will seldom improve an income property beyond getting rent from it. It caps out what the renter can expect since no amount of paying the agreed upon rent will ever yield any more than value already given.

Only by buying a house can you even take advantage of an increase in equity that comes from paying off the loan. For a renter even this benefit goes to the landlord since as the value exceeds the rent, the rent will go up whereas with a buyer as the value increases the investment remains the same. So ultimately a buyer gets greater value from an investment than a renter can ever hope to get from paying only fair value for what is received.

Maybe more later. Time to go...

Mark

I like what Mark has to say. Now fitting with what I was saying lets carry it furthur.

I think you need to look back and see why you bought this particular "house". And what things about the house you do not like. Putting energy into correcting the areas you do not like (rehabbing) will make your marriage happier, at least it should. Perhaps you and your husband are still young and you both can change some. And "become a bit more compatable". at least for the kid's sake.

Wow, Mark, when you made the comment about each spouse waiting for the other spouse to go first, you described the cycle H and I had gotten into to a T. I called it "playing marital chicken."

Think, I don't know if this is MB, but I wanted to share something. I used to think that out of 6 billion people on earth, there was this mystical "one person" and that only with that one person could I ever have a happy marriage. That God chose "John Doe" for me before the foundation of the world, and if I screwed up and married someone else, my life was doomed. I now believe that is crap. Even though my emotions vary from time to time, what I really believe in my life and as a Christian is that - when push comes to shove - when I said "I Do" to DH...he became the "right person."

Now, obviously if he is abusive or a serial cheater or something like that, I need to run like the wind. But at least at this point I reject the idea that just because the fireworks weren't as big with him or just because we have very different personalities or just because our EN's vary greatly means that I chose wrong and have a get out of jail free card. I know you don't think that either. But at my core, I really do believe in one man and one woman for one lifetime.

BTW I got 8 questions for buyer, 1 for renter, and 0 for freeloader. I was a little surprised because I thought my discontent as of late would skew my values.

Okay, I jumped into this thread from ChrisInNOVA's new thread about SF: a Female Perspective.

[/quote=thinkin] I personally do not believe that anyone should engage in sex until BOTH are ALREADY in the state of intimacy, even if they said vows and have a piece of paper. [/quote]

I assume you are talking about married couples, so I have to disagree. Most men are going to lose feelings of intimacy in relation to a decline in sexual relations with their wife. SF is the fuel of marriage. If you have lost the urge, you are going to have to learn to initiate sex in order to rebuild intimacy, especially if you are the woman who has been withholding SF or just lost interest and rejecting your husband.

As Mark said:

This doesn't mean he was faking Affection and Conversation just to get the "reward" of SF. But it doesn't matter if it is SF or anything - if you get turned down 95% of the time, you are likely to stop wasting your time initiating. The one who has done all the rejecting and no initiating now bears the responsibility of fixing what they broke.

There's been plenty of rejecting to go around between my husband and I over the last 10 years. Whatever is "broke" got that way as the result of the actions of both of us, not just one or the other.

But I see your point. In this case, I am the one who is here, I am the one attempting to embrace MB and become a buyer. I think the key in meeting any EN (even SF) is that I am able to do it in a way that is enthusiastic. Anything else is sacrifice. And I am NOT willing to just excuse or justify myself out of SF (although it probably sounds that way from what I have written). In fact, I'm making some solid efforts to work on the SF thing and stretch myself as best I can without dipping into the "sacrifice" realm any longer. 'Cause I done that, and it does NOT work for me or my husband. He used to want me to "take one for the team" as he phrased it. Now he phrases it "pity sex" and he wants that less than I do!

More coming later. I have a lot of work to finish tonight and Monday morning though. Lots of good stuff to chew on.

Feeling very grateful that we are not upside down on our house (literally, not figuratively). But also very glad we have no need to sell right now

Mark, if that's what you write when you have a few minutes, I would hate to see what you come up with after a few hours. I'm a writer, and your speed and clarity makes me jealous!

Bubbles,

While I think your presentation is a bit dramatic, I think you analyzed the situation pretty darn well. I was in a very dark place when I met my future husband, and not quite into the light enough when he proposed. By the time my doubts were raging full force, we had bought a house and the invitations were in the mail, and I believed that God would MAKE us right for each other as long as we both committed to giving 100% to the marriage and leave our old lives behind. When it became clear to me that this was not my husband�s goal for marriage, instead of addressing the problem I went into withdrawl/denial until about 2 years ago. Since then I have been fighting my way out through all sorts of self-justifications and the like. I also had to break through my husband�s denial because he didn�t see a problem. Now we both see a problem but can�t agree on how to address it. His solution is to accept our differences and be grateful for what we do have and let that be enough. If I could enthusiastically agree to that solution I probably would. But the way I see it, an intimate marriage is the closest thing I�m gonna get to �God with skin� in this world, and I�d like to set my goal on an intimate marriage. I would never have gotten married if I knew that he didn't want this goal too, or that his definition of intimate was so different than mine. He doesn�t want God, with or without skin. He believes in God, just wants to keep him at arms length because anything more makes his head spin


LOL . . . at least I have a sense of humor about it. I love my kids and really loved childbirth, although the pregnancies were no fun. I struggle with my identity as a mom, but I think that has a lot to do with struggling with my identity as a wife, and also not adequately having my EN met.


He has talked about getting the big snip snip. He doesn�t want more children. I, on the other hand, struggle with BC, because I actually take what my faith says to heart. Mind you, I haven�t always. At one time I tried the pill, actually several kinds. The side effects were awful. I was VERY dry and could not get aroused at all (this was with a different partner) and it made me crazy. I was also on them when I first got married, and they contributed to the pain of sex (dryness) and also made me crazy. When I went off, I mentally was a lot more stable. After the fact my doc said that was common for women on BCP, and have had other female friends confirm it.



Yes and No. And originally, this WAS my excuse for the once a month limit. However, I have moved beyond that now because I really do want to have sexuality as part of my marriage, and also don�t want to be living excuses anymore because that doesn�t have much integrity. Also, I truly do take the church�s stance on birth control seriously. I know that if I had the �ideal� marriage that Mark describes above, I would be open to having more children. Not like the Duggars with 19 and counting though!I think in the absence of that idea where both of us can be open to the procreative aspects of sex, we should lean on God to fill the void that is left by abstaining. Obviously that is NOT what my husband believes! And I wouldn�t want to force the belief on anyone else either. But it is what I feel called and challenged to live myself, not simply as an excuse to deny my husband, but as a path for my spiritual growth, and maybe his if he so chooses.



Again, yes and no. I�m assuming you mean physically. There are a lot of things that I dislike about his physical appearance, some within his control, some not. I think that if he were meeting my EN and took care of the things he could control, the things he can�t would not be a big deal. Right now, though, I am not really attracted physically.


Yes. When I was in my late teens/early 20s I was still a virgin but otherwise very sexually curious and had great experiences, especially with a long-term boyfriend of three years. It wasn�t the greatest relationship due to our immaturity, but we were most definitely in love, and the conflicts we had didn�t matter because we were good at meeting each other�s EN (him more than me probably, but he was VERY ok with being a self-sacrificing martyr, which is why I broke it off . . . hated being the Taker all the time). After that I had both good and bad experiences with sexual intercourse, pretty run of the mill mid-20s story, but even the good experiences were short-lived because of the �expectation� from my partners. My husband is my longest sexual partner, and he does have �skills.� In fact, I remember just weeks before we were married thinking that even though I wasn�t in love with him, �At least he knows how to get me to orgasm.� That obviously was before I was in withdrawl! He is still able to do it, but I don�t like what I have to do mentally to get there . . . fantasizing about imaginary people and scenarios. I am ashamed to write it, but we are only as sick as our secrets, and that is one that I will need to air sooner or later. I hate that that is what it takes for us to achieve a mutually satisfying sexual experience, because it demands that I pretend to be someone else. It may be satisfying physically, but not fulfilling at all.


Now Bubbles, you know that this is a bit melodramatic. For one thing, I don�t know that I married the wrong man. Maybe I married exactly the RIGHT man that God intended for me to bring me closer to Him? I haven�t destroyed my life, and haven�t destroyed his either. We both made choices, and now we are both living with the consequences. And we can both make any number of different choices today. Whatever choices either of us make God will use to bring us closer to Him, how he will do it is a mystery.

MB teaches me that the �wrong� man can become the �right� man if we both follow MB.



Ain�t that the truth!

Mark, this sentence really jumped out at me. I have complained for the longest time that my husband doesn�t speak my language. I don�t mean �love languages� although I bet if we read that book together it would do a lot to bridge the gap. My attempts to communicate usually elicit anger and frustration, either due to my admittedly poor presentation at times, but just as often due to his apparent inability to understand. I�m pretty good at asking him to reflect back what he is hearing, and he is not usually able to do this. It is frustrating for both of us. Most of me wants to just say that he is �in denial� and hiding behind �I don�t get it� so that he doesn�t have to change. I know, that is a major DJ in thinking, but at least I�m saying it here and not to him! Trust me, if there were a way to get him to understand, I would want to learn it. But efforts at �educating� him have fallen short and I�d rather avoid that and leave the educating to someone else. Unfortunately he�s not a reader, and his limited knowledge of MB is very skewed.



Your house analogy was great. I think this above quote really speaks to the decision I must make. But really, it�s not a decision. I can continue to pay and make improvements, and if the return on investment doesn�t seem to be happening, then I can stop paying, let the deal collapse and look for something else. The only thing �wasted� is time. And it�s not really wasted if I learn something in the process.


I kinda feel like I�m the renter (duh) and that my husband is the landlord. I can even make improvements myself to the rental property . . . paint a few rooms, plant a few flowers, fix the leaky faucet, because it annoys me. I do it for myself. Yet the improvements make no impact on the original agreement, save the possibility of rent going up due to the improvements. Such a cynical way to look at my marriage though. I don�t think I will stay with that line of thinking long.


I agree that the key to changing my thinking on Question 1 is wrapped up in the words Give, Take and Get. I think ultimately what looks like the �ideal� marriage is a pendulum swinging between giving and getting, where it starts out with the pendulum swinging to the extreme of either end, but over time eventually becoming shorter and shorter distance between the moment of giving and the moment of getting. The key is to keep myself out of withdrawl enough to actually receive when he DOES give.

You can ignore this....

I think your religion is squelching your ability to have a close marriage. I bet your husband would use condoms if it means more sex for him. I never tried the pill. I started having sex when single at age 27 and got a tubal at age 30. I wanted a life without bearing or raising kids. =I made love with only three guys. LTR.

Let your husband get a vasectomy! It is a blessing! He is caring to do it. He is the leader of the family and wants no more kids. If that is not Gods voice then you are listening to the wrong religious leaders.

About sex, I too use fantasy a little to "push myself over the edge". Most women do. It is fine to do this and is not a sin. It does not need to get in the way of true lovemaking with our husbands or intimacy. Having great orgasms can really help us and help the marriage. But if you are having to blank out ALL of sex than that could be a problem you can work out with a good counselor...

I wonder why you feel your religion does not approve of a tiny bit of mental fantasy in the bedroom. God gave us a mind! Your pastor is not in the bedroom with you. Nor will he help pay for or raise more children. A few minutes of fantasy to put you in the moment with your husband is fine. I do not know a woman that does not do this. Unless you cannot stand to even make love at all with this husband.

If your husband does not want any more kids, for you to risk pregnancy by having sex and using no birth control IS A SIN FOR YOU. Does your religion come before what your husband wants? Does your religion take a priority position ABOVE your husband's needs and desires? (yes it does I read what you said) Not loving and respecting your husband and helping fill his needs IS A SIN.

How does your husband feel about the lack of effective birth control? How does he feel about having sex only once a month? His sex life is best at his age now, it will not improve as he ages. His sex life is being wasted. I know you do not understand this. He needs more sex but you dont want it.

I think your husband is a GIVER but you do not see that nor appreciate it.

1. He loves you enough to let you stay home while he works his butt off for the family

2. He lives with you and love you even as you embrace your "religion" even though the religion dictates you reject birth control, risking pregnancy even though he wants no more kids.

3. He lives with sex once a month as YOU ALLOW IT.

4. He accepts you even though you are not attracted to him.

5. He will get a vasectomy for the good of you and the family. Any man who would take this sacrifice on is good in my book.

6. I am sure if you made a list, this man would be supremely giving. Make us a list of what he gives to you and the family and those others around him.

7. What needs of yours does your husband NOT FILL??

not only do I have a reluctant spouse (who is probably a �dry drunk,� i.e., doesn�t drink but isn�t emotionally or spiritually sober,

What do you mean by this????

What would you want or expect from a man, a husband, religion wise?

1. Go to church?
2. Abstain from sex?
3. Procreate freely and endlessly as the church teaches?
4. Become a deacon in the church?
5. Teach sunday school?
6. Become a pastor?
7. Sing in the choir?
8. Sit next to you in church so others can see him?
9. Do what the church wants him to do?
10. Is he a sinner...a failure....a dissapointment in your eyes because he does not buy the church doctrine about abstinince from sex, quiverfull of children, and instead believes and trusts in God on his own?
11. Would you be more sexually attracted to him if he followed your churches doctrine like a priest would?

am apprently VERY fertile, so now I'm pretty much afraid to have sex at all because birth control failed two times

Please let this man bless your family and have the vasectomy. It is the solution.

(because it would mean he�d have to give up the things that �give his life meaning�).

Please list these things he would have to give up.

I found Alanon and MB around the same time and have been working the 12 Steps,

These are good, very good groups. I would like to ask,,,I am sure I missed this...why you are in this group. Does it have to do with your husband? If so..was he or is he alcoholic or a drug addict? What does he feel is the reason you are in these groups? Does he know you are in the groups complaining about him? Because he is not HOLY enough for you you have to go to groups and complain?

I realize now that agreeing to marry my husband and stuffing my feelings for all these years is perhaps the most unloving and dishonest thing I could ever do to any human being, and I am deeply sad and remorseful.

No, I think that this is not the most unloving and dishonest thing....it is what you are doing to the man NOW that is terrible.

I have this feeling you have been JUDGING your husband all these years thinking he is not as HOLY as you are for some reason. This is the bad thing. You should accept his very giving offer of a vasectomy and notice all the other ways he loves you. What is so bad about him? Why are you going to all the church and alanon meetings? Do you go there and complain and vent about your "corrupt/non religious husband?

husbands who came to sobriety

So you are giving him a chance to "get sober"...

What is your definition of "coming to sobriety" how it applies to your husband?

You say he does not drink alcohol. You say he needs more "religion" to make you happy. What kind of sobriety are you talking about here?

I want POJA. But my relgious faith IS more important than my marriage. It is the most important thing in my life. My relationship with God trumps my relationship with God, because putting anything else first is idolatry.

I see what happened here. Sorry i missed this. YOU DO PUT THE CHURCH ABOVE YOUR MARRIAGE.

You got a husband who goes to church with you...but this is not enough for you. You got a loving husband..... but this is not enough for you.

You got a husband who only drinks twice a year...but yet this is not enough for you and you have to lable him a DRY DRUNK.

Do you have male friends you admire as MEN OF GOD who you like thier characteristics better than your husband's?

Are there qualities in men you see in the church that you wish your husband had?

I am going to take a stab at this. I believe what you focus on will change your viewpoint about your husband. You are busy in the ALANON groups complaining about your husband and focusing on how unholy he is. In church and with your church friends you also are busy focusing on what your husband lacks in the way of religion.

This is the whole problem. If you were to quit church for a few weeks and quit the alanon groups, you would have a lot more time to spend on your marriage and enjoying time with your husband at home. Yet you want all the attention and drama these groups tend to give you. The downside of these groups is it eats up the 15 hours a week you should be home spending with your husband. Or doing activities you both need to get out and do. Dancing? Instead find out something he likes. Most men do not love dancing.

Who watches the kids while you are out at all your nightly groups? Him I suppose. You could care less since he is not holy enough for you. What are the physical features he has that you hate? These can sometimes be changed.

I believe you are rewriting history to suit yourself as you immerse yourself in these addiction groups AS IF YOUR HUSBAND IS AN ADDICT!

Lonely??? Then learn to form a relationship with your own husband. That is what husbands are put on this earth for.

I want to ask this too...I hate to ask it. Is there a male friend or one man that you see a lot that you are getting a small crush on? Is there a man in the groups or in the church that you like all his qualities?


Do you fantasize about some men at church or alanon, or some man you admire, and are starting to get attracted to, when you are with your husband? In bed with your husband too?

When the Bible says to "be a cheerful giver", that doesn't mean to only give when it makes you feel good. It means to work on your attitude so you feel cheerful about giving.

Same thing with your actions to meet the necessities of a complete marriage. Being enthusiastic about SF isn't just for you; most husbands aren't that interested in sex with an unenthusiastic wife, because that lacks the FULFILLMENT component of SF.

Think, my heart is heavy right now, and even though I don't have much time, I did want to say one thing.

I am not sure of all that you believe, but I believe that the most important thing in life and eternity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The MOST important. Now, if my H said he wanted to change churches...I'm there. If he said he wanted to go to the "traditional" service instead of the contemporary...I'm there. Even if he said let's change denominations...I'm there. But if he ever said, "Choose between me and your relationship with Jesus Christ".....I choose Jesus. Notice I said jesus, not dogma, not "religion." But Jesus. So I can understand how your faith and your reasons for being reticent about SF play out. I do not have a conviction against BC. But I do have many friends who have a problem with the pill but who feel okay faith-wise with a condom. BTW, the pill made me crazy after I had my 2 kids. That's why I had a tubal. But I will not tread on the idea of your faith because I understnad it being an integral part of your life.

There is a verse, Col. 3:17, that says "Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Fathr through him." I have applied that to my marriage before. Everything I do in my marriage, everything I do for H, do it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. It made a big difference in my attitude, which in turn made a big difference in my "want to." Because we can give because we are supposed to for awhile, but sooner or later, if we can't start giving because we want to.....I don't see how anyone who isn't superhuman can do that forever.

Well, that's all I wanted to say for now. Gotta go herd wild children.

Bubbles,

I'm pretty sure Think attends Alanon because of FOO stuff and not because her H is a drinker or a dry drunk.

Bubbles and Luri,

I'm also not certain this is a religious problem for the most part.



Think,

I'd like to go down this path a bit if it's OK.
Part of the problem in making improvements when you don't own the property is that you get none of the benefits of the improvements when you're done and if you make real improvements the value of the property increases and you end up paying more.

Paint, curtains, new carpet are pretty much minimal maintenance things for most houses. Carpet can make a huge improvement but unless the sub-floor will last another generation nothing has really been fixed at all.

Improvements might be all new landscaping, new siding, new windows, a new kitchen.

We have this problem with painting stuff at our house. It's one of the places my wife can accomplish IB like almost no other place. Couple argue of colors or paint textures. Some might disagree on whether or not to paint the trim and other wood work in the room.

Now my wife waits until I am gone for a day and paints the living room. She paints the walls without regard to whether there are places that need to be fixed first or she fixes them haphazardly and the result looks to me not like an improvement but like the Beverly Hillbillies have moved into my house or she hired Larry and his brothers Darryl to do the job.

I could talk a lot about the IB aspect of this whole thing but my point is that when you paint and clean you aren't really making actual repairs. Painting the kitchen might help but if the sink leaks, the cabinets are falling apart and the the electrical stuff all needs an upgrade, renters aren't likely to do 35 thousand in upgrades to a place they are renting. If they do knowing that they will have none of the benefit and with no commitment to remain there to at least get the small benefit of using the improved property it really isn't likely to happen.

I'm not talking about paint and curtains. I'm talking about new plumbing, new wiring, new floor-plan, new kitchen and making all of these things what you want and not just what some landlord is willing to provide.

I'm not talking about changing colors. I'm talking about fixing the foundation so the house doesn't fall down. Not new filters for the furnace but a new furnace with all new ducts so the house stays warm and doesn't cost so much to heat. I'm referring to The kind of changes that would make the house YOURS instead of the previous owners'. Making those kind of improvements when you have no ownership is foolish and usually results in costing you more. It is lots more than just your time that is wasted.

Part of becoming a buyer has to do with owning our own stuff to begin with. We tend to try to fix stuff we don't have any ownership in. If I try to improve my house by changing the landscaping in my neighbor's yard, I'm likely to do nothing more than start a back-fence war.

Then we tend to try to make things look better without actually making any tough and lasting changes. I am willing to mow the lawn or paint the house but the siding still needs to be replaced and the overgrown bushes still need to be cut out and replaced with new ones.

What I am trying to get you to see is that the sacrifice of the past was in part the result of not doing the kind of things buyers do but acting as a renter might act. The REAL repairs, the things that actually make the house better and not just a different color require acting from a position of ownership because lasting changes only happen where you plan on staying.

A marriage isn't the color of the walls that can be changed every few years and if you decide you don't like it any more you can change it on a whim. A marriage is what some call the bones of the house. It is the foundation, the framing, the plumbing and electrical stuff. It is the stuff that makes the house a house. Until the house is up to code, no amount of paint and carpet can make it a home.

When the roof leaks you have to fix it if you are the owner, even if you have a renter living there.


Ideally it gets to a point where it is give and get at the same time, Think. That is what POJA does for a marriage. Once you begin to realize that everything you do either adds to the relationship or takes from the relationship and start doing only things that add to it you start to reap the benefits of full ownership. You return on investment is not based on having a roof this month but on building equity for the future.

When POJA starts to work in a relationship it can look a lot like magic or an intervention my the Hand of God. Learning to stop expecting our spouse to sacrifice in exchange for our own sacrifice changes the whole feel of the marriage. If when I give, I know I and also getting, not two days from now, not ten years from now, not five minutes from now but when I give because I am giving and my spouse is giving and we are both getting what we need at the same time, it makes my giving not a sacrifice of any kind but actually a huge benefit to my own happiness.

If Care is the engine, then Protection is the transmission. No matter how big or how powerful the engine is, unless the transmission can get the power on the pavement the car just sits motionless.

And if Care and Protection are the motor and transmission, then PORH honesty becomes the rest of the drive line for the car. But POJA is like the suspension which control how the tires and the power from the engine interact with the road. It is the part than absorbs the impact of bumps and allows the weight to transfer from one tire to another as the car steers around potholes. When you have the motor and transmission and tires and suspension all working together like they should, the driver can point the car and go where he wants it to go. If any part is not working, the car becomes a trailer and needs to be towed or it becomes a box and needs to be carried from place to place.

And the key is to make sure YOUR side of the car is working properly. If you're into auto racing I have a pit crew analogy I can give you for this...

Mark

Think,

Let me add this.

When we are renters, we are always dreaming of becoming buyers and taking ownership. If what we are renting is not what we want from life we are always looking for that perfect deal. In marriage this means we are focused not on the relationship we have but on some notion we have of what might be a better deal for us.

But just like when we are renting a house, seldom do we decide to move out of one place and look for another place to live. What we end up doing is finding that better deal (at least we think it is a better deal) and THEN acting on breaking our lease. So for a marriage this means we don't actually make a move to divorce until we already have the next relationship to move on to set up and ready to go.

Talking about an affair here, Think.

This is what the renter's mindset leads to in marriage. It allows us to always be looking and never be settled. It keeps us from acting like a buyer because it is the looking for what we don't have that keeps us from buying in to begin with.

Someplace in my Musings thread I have a story about wishing for more and missing the miracle. Look for it if you haven't read it or read it again if you have.

I'll also tell you that the difference between a renter and buyer often boils down to paying what is owed and little beyond that. For a renter, if I become dissatisfied with what I am paying for, I begin to withhold payment until I am getting what I want. This of course is a violation of most leases and the landlord does have the option to have me evicted rather than addressing my complaints. So renter holds in reserve the right to stop doing what was agreed upon as leverage to gain even more than what was entered into with the lease.

But as an owner, I have not just benefits not afforded to the renter I have additional commitments as well. If my house needs to be fixed, I can't stop paying for it because it isn't the bank's job to fix my house. It is up to me to fix it.

Mark

Mark, your analogies ar dizzying

You've got a gift! Will respond when I have time.

I should print this out and put it on my bathroom mirror.

I believe the full verse is "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7). The Revised Standard Version has "not reluctantly or under compulsion."

One of my passions is Christian stewardship. And one of the things I have learned through my involvement in stewardship is that we are to give not because God or the Church needs our time, talent or treasure. We give because we were made in God's image, God, who is the ultimate giver. When we experience ourselves as givers (in a healthy way, not as emotional martyrs) we get to experience the best version of ourselves, the person God intended us to be.

And yes, it is not lost on me how this all ties into my marriage situation. God has a very sick sense of humor. Gotta love him

Mark, the lesson from our little talk about real estate is that when one decides to be a buyer, one should pay all the cash up front.

I jest. But I know that for myself, although I had some doubts leading up to the marriage, I went in thinking that we were BOTH going to change to be the ideal marriage. Some of our conversations over the past few days got me thinking back to that time. After all, why would I marry him if I had the doubts?

I believed we would make it work. We'd had an experience in our dating days where we broke up for a few hours. It was over religion. I left the argument and went to my church event, which was a 2 hour drive away. He followed and showed up at the end of the event, and I decided to give him a second chance because he demonstrated that he was willing to go the distance for me, literally. He started going to church with me. He started going to small groups with me. As I mentioned before, when we got enganged he talked about becoming Catholic. I believed him. He was willing to change for me in order for us to be more united as a married person. So I know he has it in him. But within months of us being married, he went back to the, "I was this way when you married me, I can't change" with regard to meeting my most important EN of conversation. I laid out my vision of marriage, which was a lot like what Mark posted earlier. And he said that he didn't believe in it.

I cannot put into words the disappointment. And I suppose I don't have forgiveness in my heart about it. I shut down, I shut him out, and yes, I was even tempted to get my needs met by someone else. I did everything I could to numb myself from the sadness and disappointment of that rejection of marriage, with the expectation that I still "take one for the team." This weekend, I allowed myself to remember, and to feel. And after I cried really hard, I remembered that now I have tools. I have alanon and MB. I don't have to be stuck in despair. I can have hope.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like "religions" that deep down go against what God really wants.

I do not like religions that take time/ use time from spouses that should be spent on thier marriages.

That is really bad when religions do this.

How much time do you spend away from the house?

1. 5 hours a week alanon?
2. 6 hours a week on stewardship?
3. 7 hours a week with church friends/activities?

No wonder your husband is frustrated. He probably spends less than 6 hours a week on gaming. Or 2 hours a week seeing Porn if that.

Those things you can negotiate with your husband but you need to be willing to give up some of the church stuff. I am amazed he takes care of the family while you are gone all that time on church stuff.

He started going to small groups with me. As I mentioned before, when we got enganged he talked about becoming Catholic. I believed him. He was willing to change for me in order for us to be more united as a married person. So I know he has it in him. But within months of us being married, he went back to the, "I was this way when you married me, I can't change" with regard to meeting my most important EN of conversation. I laid out my vision of marriage, which was a lot like what Mark posted earlier. And he said that he didn't believe in it.

OK, let me guess. Your EN of conversation...does it have to do with RELIGIOUS CONVERSATIONS?

Luri, thanks for your words. My husband would never ask me to reject my faith. He just doesn't want to join me. Yes, he will attend church. But he won't embrace it. I am grateful for the times that he joins me. And I make an effort to invite him, instead of shutting him out. It is irritating to sit there with him knowing that he's only doing it for me, sacrificing. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad on one level he will do it for me! But it is a sacrifice for him. He would rather do other things.

He "lets" me have church and other IB so that I will "let" him have his IB.

He most definitely expects his spouse to sacrifice in exchange for his own sacrifice. That is apparently what he believes about marriage according to his actions. He will do ANYTHING to avoid meeting the need for conversation that is fulfilling for me. He would rather me have an affair, and has said so. That would be like me telling him to go find a 20 year old blond, and mean it.

You want more conversation. About what do you want to talk with him about?

He even goes to church with you? Wow. My husband won't do that.

But he won't embrace it

Who are you to judge? Maybe he won't embrace the wasteful and fanatical parts of the Catholic church. My husband was raised Catholic and believe me there are a lot of bad things about that religion. My husband believes in God and lives a good life.

If you had a man who would embrace your religion, you would NOT WANT HIM. Who would stay home with the kids while you both were gone doing stewardship? He would be mentoring young women. He would spend 25 hours a week at the church and the church would love the "free volunteer work" they get out of you both.

Your marriage would be done if he was as fanatical and dedicated to religion as you are. Why not take it all the way. Become a NUN. Is it too late for you to do that? I mean WHERE DOES IT END!!!

As you can see it really frustrates me when I see RELIGION get squarely in the way of HAVING A GOOD MARRIAGE. It seems so ironic. God wants us to have a good, loving marriage. Not spend hours and hours on RELIGION. I fear you do not see that your religion is getting in the way of your marriage improvement.

I am ok with condoms and so is he. It just didn�t prevent pregnancy the last time.


It�s his body, and he can do so if he wants. I�m just not going to make the appointment for him. He is an adult and can make his own healthcare decisions, and if having sex without fear of pregnancy is that important to him, then he can do it. I don�t push it, talk about it, etc. It�s his business.

I do not agree with it on a general level. I think a marriage should be procreative. I think that if we resolved our other problems, we also might be very open to more children. But he can choose too. That IS his side of the street.


It�s not about what my religion does or doesn�t say, and it most certainly is not about my pastor. It�s about my own personal convictions. Trust me, I do have MAJOR issues with many church teachings, mostly because I don�t understand them. And I don�t have a problem with a TINY bit of mental fantasy. I agree that is normal and healthy within reason. What I do goes beyond what I am comfortable with. I am using fantasy as an escape. I�ve never faked an orgasm and wouldn�t even know how. But it�s like faking the orgasm in my head. It�s allowing my husband to be an object of pleasure instead of a person loving me. It�s a lie.

No Bubbles. A sin is anything that keeps me from the love of God. It may be an action, or a lack of action, but it may also be the motivation behind the �right� action or inaction. I�m not worried about sin. I strive to do my best, and I fail every day, and that�s OK, because I know that I can always turn to God and ask for help. I may make the same mistake over and over and over again. And God loves me enough to let me keep making the same mistake until I am in enough pain that I am capable of learning from it. Wtihout sin I wouldn�t get to experience the saving love of God. And since perfection isn�t possible, instead I strive for progress. I strive for learning. I strive to make the most of my sins and mistakes. �Never let a crisis go to waste!� LOL


Yes, he is a giver. But he is giving the wrong things. The point of MB is for me to learn how to meet my husband�s MOST IMPORTANT emotional needs, not the ones that I am most comfortable meeting at the expense of the most important ones. My husband correctly feels that he has changed tremendously during the years we have been married. He has a list of all his sacrifices, and he is willing to remind me of them too. I acknowledge and appreciated it. I have been racking my brain for years trying to figure out why it wasn�t �enough� for me, and now I know . . . he was trying to meet the wrong needs!

Not that I�m a saint. I have doing the exact same thing.


Obviously haven�t been to one of those meetings yourself, have you Bubbles

I don�t go to �complain� about him or anyone. In fact, if I went into one of my meetings and focused on complaining, I�d get my butt handed to me. That is what a sponsor is for (female). We talk about the solution, not the problem. (not just marriage, not just alcohol, but anything, because the same principles apply to all areas of our lives, not just the problem du jour). I stay away from meetings where there is �drama� as you say. Yes, it is out there, and I know where to find it if I want to. Most of the people I surround myself with are long-timers who are very good at handing out 2x4s, but with a bit more compassion. Women stick with women, men stick with men. That said, I do have male �friends� from the program, but they are significantly older than me (parents� age bracket) and there is most definitely NOT an attraction component! These guys are old enough to be grandparents, and some of them are, and a lot are in healthy marriages. And I�m not out getting coffee with them or anything either.

I try to go to meetings during the day so as not to cut into potential UA time. And mostly women at these meetings, because most men are working during those times.

It�s not that my husband is not �holy enough� because that would be an incredibly self-righteous attitude, even for me. I long for him to have the same desire for self-improvement and self-discovery that I have, because really, that is all that holiness is in my worldview. Not adhering to a bunch of rules for the sake of the rules. Screw the rules. It�s about self-discipline bringing me closer to my God, instead of heartless hedonism and moral relativism.

I do not know if my husband is addicted to anything. I do kow thqat he grew up in a family of active alcoholics and drug addicts, and that has affected his ability to be intimate, just as the generational effects of alcoholism have affected my ability to be intimate, my brother�s ability to be intimate, and my parents� ability to be intimate. And I�m not just talking �sex� intimate.

It is not my job to label him, as your correctly say. And I�m not going to get into a conversation with you about �program stuff� because it really isn�t relevant and there needs to be some mutual understanding about some basic things to do that in a productive way. I don�t know if he is a �dry drunk�. I don�t know if he is even addicted to porn; he is the one who says he is addicted. If it keeps him from being close to other people, and he doesn�t like it, then it�s a problem, but it�s his problem to solve, not mine. It�s my job not to contribute, and I try not to.

Yes, I�m sure there are plenty of people in my world with whom I could be attracted if I went looking. I don�t go looking. I have enough on my plate.

I�m done with this line of questioning for now. I think I�ve said my piece and anything more just ain�t productive or relevant at the moment.

I don't want to do that, because that's just justifaction, and justification is just the lie I tell myself so I can sleep at night. BTDT.

WE don't have to be on exactly the same page religion wies. And we don't need to be exactly the same eithr. I mean, if we were both the same then one of us would be unneccesary, and then I could become a nun and lvoe God and not have to worry about any of this stuff right?

No, Bubbles, I think you need to go back and read what Mark posted about his view of marriage, based on the creation sotry. That is what I want, and I will chip away at everything that doesn't look like that. That doesn't mean that I should sacrifice my religion though. And it doesn't mean that I should just accept him not meeting my EN.

Mark, Retread, ML? Am I wrong on this?

It�s his body, and he can do so if he wants. I�m just not going to make the appointment for him. He is an adult and can make his own healthcare decisions, and if having sex without fear of pregnancy is that important to him, then he can do it. I don�t push it, talk about it, etc. It�s his business.


Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe the part in the Bible about "becoming one flesh" with the one you marry? The Bible speaks of your body being NOT YOUR BODY BUT YOUR SPOUSES and HIS BODY NOT BEING HIS BODY BUT YOURS.

You are ONE with your husband. So why won't you talk about this? Why wont you make the decision with him? IT IS HIS BUSINESS!!! No way. It IS YOUR BODY -HIS BODY IS YOURS>

IT IS NOT HIS BUSINESS> what else wont you talk about with him!

I would love for us to read the Love Languages book and talk about one chapter each week. Or listen to it on CD since he is not a reader.

Maybe one day we could talk about MB stuff. I don't think either of us is ready for that yet. I think we both need a bit more action and romantic love (from me) first.

I'd like to talk about the readings each weekend at church.

I'd like to talk about politics without making AO and DJ.

I'd like to talk about our dreams for the future, what we want to accomplish together, what we hope for, what we are afraid of, what hurts us.

I'd like to talk about what it was like to grow up in my family, the good and bad and ugly.

I would like to be in touch with my own painful feelings and espress them to him and have him respond by saying "Tell me more about that" when I start to get quiet and thoughtful, and to hug me when the words don't come but the tears do.




And I want more than anything to do the same for him.

I don't want him to be a saint. I want him to talk about his mistakes and what he's learned from them instead of pretending they didn't happen. And I want him to call me on it when I do the same.

We solved our religious dispute by going Non-Dom.

We would never ever reconcile his Southern Baptist with my Roman Catholic, no way, no how. And we really couldn't reconcile my Hindu, Jewish, Unitarian Universalist, Buddhist and just-cause-I-believe-it beliefs with his believe-this-or-you're-going-to-hell beliefs.

Non-dom, Bible-based faith works for us. I don't believe that the Bible is untrue. I just think there's more.

Perhaps you are using the church teachings SELECTIVELY to give you excuses to NEGLECT your husband and be SEPARATE from him in most every way. When in reality God calls us to act the TRUTH OUT in our marriages.

THE TRUTH OF MARRIAGE IS THAT WE ARE ONE WITH OUR SPOUSE, ONE FLESH. WE ARE TO ACT THAT WAY.

I have talked with him about it. I have said that I will support him in this decision if that's what he wants. I have not made a big issue about my beliefs. I accept that we have different perspectives. If he gets a vasectomy it will not be a LB. I can enthusiastically support him.

However, I do know that there will be consequences to this decison, good and bad. I can't be certain what they will be. I'm not talking "eternal" consequences, but consequences in the here and now, in the way we relate to each other and ourselves.

When I say it's not my business, I really mean that it is not my job to make the appointment. He is a grown man and needs to take responsibility for himself.

FYI, I do not take the Bible literally, piecemeal, or out of context if I can help it.

OK, this has gone WAY offtrack. We don't need to get into religious debates. I know what I believe, and for guidance with that I can stick with some trusted sources of information, same as any of you would do.

Please let's stick to MB principles. If we can add a religious tie in on occasion I would love that. I love other people's viewpoints, even when they differ from mine. But berating me is not productive. Please stop.

I'll take a MB 2x4 now and then. Keep the religious ones to yourself unless you can practice the compassion of Christ.

There are 1000 ways you could get conversation needs met thru your husband. I could help you with this.

I noticed over 50% of the conversations you want to have with your husband are about RELIGION. Do you think you could tone that down a bit, just for a few weeks while getting conversation with him going? I mean, once you two develop good conversation techniques and both learn to love conversing with each other, then you can bring in some religious conversations as long as you do it sparingly.

What did you mean by "He would rather have me have an affair than talk to me". Could you explain so we can help you two get back onto the positive conversational path????

My husband craves to talk with me and I love to talk with him about ANYTHING. Now I can see if I only talked about religion, it would get a little old. But we do talk about that occasioally.

There seems to be a lot of important things you and your husband would like to talk together about. How can we help you make that happen in your marriage?


Conversations are very very important between spouses, from a wide range of "shallow bantering" to "deep thoughtful talks", it is suprememly important in marriage.

I want to find out exactly what is blocking good conversation in your marriage. So that we could help you UNBLOCK it.

I have an idea of what that could be but am not sure...

Religion is also something I believe should be POJA'd.

Find something you both can get behind.

My thoughts are that conversation leads to true intimacy in marriage. And that ONENESS with your husband...that you desire (deep inside) but feel you cannot achieve.

He is OK with shallow bantering. I want more of the deep thoughtful.

FWIW, I have made religion and relationship two topics that we do NOT talk about. Doesn't mean I don't want to though

We'll get there eventually.

I 1000% agree.

How exactly do you approach a deep and thoughtful talk? I used to talk about my childhood and my husband would listen. Then he would comment or start talking about his childhood. We try to be good talkers and good listeners. That way no discussion is off limits.

Is there something about your conversation techniques that turns your husband off cold? Or makes him want to run from the room? Or otherwise shut you out or withdraw? There must be something.

Something in the way of intimate conversation!

Can't do anything but Catholic enthusiastically.

He's not opposed to catholicism per se. In fact, he is pretty much ANTI anything evangelical, bible-based only. He's got good reason too. He's more comfortable with catholicism than anything else.

And I'm very open to "new age" kind of thinking to a very limited degree. I'm fascinated by buddhism, taoism, other spiritual traditions. I love all things spiritual!

He's comfortable with the idea that there's something out there, and that is enough for him. But putting spiritual principles into a daily practice with our actions is something he seems resistant to. Even MB. MB is VERY spiritual in nature in my opinion, though it adheres to no particular faith.

I think Alanon would be a GREAT middle ground for us. It is not bible based, is not allied with aby religiou=n or sect, but is deeply spiritual. It is a path for emotional progress and makes no demands other than you show up, listen and begin to put the principles into action. It's about building better relationships. I would love if he would come with me to a meeting.

He did once, back before I was ever really involved. He said he wished that he could go to a group like that, but didn't feel he belonged (we all feel like that at first).

He's got it in him. I just need to be patient with him, I think.

But tien spiritual principles into a daily practice with our actions is something he seems resistant to.

He's got it in him. I just need to be patient with him, I think.


You seem to repeat again and again that your husband LACKS something or some (spiritual?)things. What exactly does this man lack? That you WANT him to have?

(Perhaps he has all he needs only YOU need to embrace what he can give to you!)

Maybe

Right now what he lacks most is willingness. And that has been my problem too. I'm working on my willingness.

Thanks for the verbal sparring. It's good for me

He's not a big fan of any conversation that would involve me crying. I think that's kinda a male thing though. I get that.

He is also not a big fan about talking about himself, and never has been. He will state the facts of what happened, but not the emotions. I get that too. We can only talk about what we CAN talk about, and if there's something that makes him uncomfortable with his emotins, then I don't want to force it.

He has a very hard time expressing any emotion except anger and numbness. He doesn't trust the feeling of happiness. This is not something that is my fault, just something that has been there since before we dated. He doesn't like it, but he also doesn't DO anything to change it.

Has anyone read Dr. Harley's articles on religious differences:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039b_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5040a_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5040b_qa.html

I find his approach really appealing.

He does believe it is possible to have a good marriage with religious differences.

For what it's worth (I'm no expert), I think I agree.

Which is closer to the way you feel about your husband:

1. I wish he loved spiritual things as much as I do.

2. I wish he would spend 50% of his time and energy on religion like I do.

3. He goes to church but it is worth NOTHING because he does not go for the right reasons. He only goes because he loves me and that is no good reason.

4. I want to talk two hours each week about the Sunday messages we hear.

5. I give up, he is never going to be as deep or as spiritual as i am therefore I am going to get my spiritual needs filled from other people.

6. Religion is everything to me and he does not understand it is the most important thing in life.

7. I love the church more than I love the idea of having a good close marriage.

8. I feel that if I am close to my husband and happy with him, I will not be able to be close to God.

9. I feel if I am close to God, I will not be able to be close and intimate with my husband.

10. I cannot have both closeness with God and true intimacy with my (sinful corrupt heathen) husband.



5.

For Bubs:


You know, I was probaby being a bit overdramatic myself with this one. He HAS said that. But it was probably an AO in response to his own frustration with being unwilling/unable to engage in coversation. I probably took that out of context to make a point, which is not really fair to him.

He believes that if he is not able to meet one of my needs that I should find someone who can. He would like first right of refusal though. I go get my needs met by family all the time, sometime to the detriment of marriage, because I do so without checking with him first. This is disrespectful of me and I have stopped, and it makes a big difference.

Now I don't think he would send me out to have sex with another man if he were not "in the mood." And I don't think he really wants me to have intimate conversations with other men either. But he'll let me call my dad if we having a plumbing problem that is over his head. And he would rather I find somebody else to do all my intellectualizing and philosphizing with. So luckily I can do that here, and also with alanon friends. Especially my Sponsor. She is wonderful and has a great mind.

Right now what he lacks most is willingness

Willingness do do what?

Willingness for what?

He believes that if he is not able to meet one of my needs that I should find someone who can.

Allow me to try and translate this:


Your husband means this:

"You have told me for years how I do not meet your needs. In many ways. In fact, you have never told me that I EVER HAVE MET YOUR NEEDS at all. You have made it clear I do not and never will meet your needs. In fact, you have made it clear that you have given up on me ever meeting your needs, I am so frustrated with this and you telling me this all the time, hurting my feelings when I love you so much,,,,that I am ready to tell you to find someone else. I am at the height of frustration and hurt because of you telling me and everyone else in detail how it is that I dont meet your needs"

Woah. You are taking things WAY off course here, and saying things that are utterly unfounded based on what I have written.

Yes, I wish he would love spiritual things as much as I do. I would love if he would be just a bit more open to them. That would be enough. Going to church ONLY because he loves me IS a good reason, but I do want more, and there is nothing wrong with that. It would be nice to talk about the saunday readings. Nice but not necessary for happiness. All the rest of that stuff is total BS.

Here is another possible translation:

"I love you and have given up my whole life to support and love you and the kids and here you keep telling me I do not meet your needs! It is hurtful but I will not express that to you, it is terribly hurtful to know that I am NOT ENOUGH as your husband and it is clear as day that you want another type of man to be your husband and you regret the day you married me"

Yep. I was DJing BIG time. Which is why I don't talk about our "failures" anymore unless absolutely necesary.

Truthfully for the first several years of marriage, I said NOTHING to him. I stuffed it. So when he was finally hearing from me, I was incredibly emotional and not really caring what I said or how I said it or even if it was true. I was venting on him. It was before MB. I know better now.

He felt your rejection of him even before you said it though,....... people feel spousal rejection deep inside thier psyche even if it is not expressed openly by the other (the rejecting) spouse.

Just like a child who feels his parents are about to divorce years before they actually do. People know and feel things and are hurt by things. Even if these things are unsaid.

Why did he marry me if he felt that rejection inside?

Because if that was happening, if was happening WELL before we said "I do."

What if those years you rejected him without saying anything affected him and started damaging your relationship with him. Then, he turned to porn a little and other things to escape your rejection. Then, you rejected him even more.

See, in a marriage, the things we do not say fester and cause way more damage then if we let them out. These things we do not say are really like "invisable damagers".

He felt the rejection from you, but it was no different than the unsaid unexpressed rejection from his own parents and family so HE DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE REJECTION FEELINGS FROM YOU AS BEING ABNORMAL.

Well, according to him he has had the porn problem since he was a kid. his dad was into it, was a serial cheater until his second wife put him on a tight leash. his mom was very "anti-sex" as a result. He has a lot of confusion in this area. He thinks it's best to forget it and leave it in the past. Maybe he's right.

I definitely see the cyclical nature of all of this. But I don't see how any of that offers any solution, other than just to STOP, which I am doing, have been doing, etc. What I share here in this forum is for me to see the falacies in my past and present thinking. But I aim to be very accepting and caring and kind and respectful in my relationship with my husband. Because I don't like the alternative that I didn't know I had been doing.

Hey that is all you can do! You have to look at the actual problems and the mechanisms in order to find the best solution. At least, that is what I try and do with my relationship when it had problems.

This is a STRONG statement. What is the word you would use???...

I would think it would be WIFE...but that's me....

not2fun

ps...I don't know much about your story, but there is a link out there directing me to that post of yours, which is why I commented on this....

Stop what you are doing?

What do you mean by that? What are you doing now that you feel you might have to stop?

That logic goes both ways. I thought that being in an unromantic, self-sacrificing marriage was normal. So I bought it.

Guess I totally ruined my life and his life, huh? i don't think anyone or anything is beyond redemption if we are willing to recieve it. Problem is that with a marriage, both need to be willing to recieve. And it doesn't happen overnight.

No nothing is overnight, healing a marriage and both spouses within the marriage is a (long) process but one you wont regret.

No, the solution is to follow the MB program, whether or not we fully undestand all the mechanisms. Read some of the other threads on this idea. If I focus on the problem, I stay living in the problem. If I focus on the solution, I get to start living in the solution.

I want to find out what is your fault and what is his fault but not to blame either one of you. If you can figure out where the fault lies (accidental faults) you can see how to do the fix.

You can focus on both the problem and the solution, whichever it is appropriate to do. You and I are saying the same thing.

Gotta go work.

My point is that I don't believe that sex should be marital currency. That sex should be the expression of intimacy, not simply the means of achiaving intimacy. The age old struggle of the man needing sex to feel close and the woman needing to feel close to have sex. Ideally, wqe should both be feeling close, and sex is the expression of that. It becomes particularly challenging when it is the wife who is taking the first step. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it becomes a challenge.

My point is that I don't believe that sex should be marital currency. That sex should be the expression of intimacy, not simply the means of achiaving intimacy. The age old struggle of the man needing sex to feel close and the woman needing to feel close to have sex. Ideally, wqe should both be feeling close, and sex is the expression of that. It becomes particularly challenging when it is the wife who is taking the first step. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it becomes a challenge.


Is this the way you talk to your husband?

My point is that I don't believe that sex should be marital currency.

That sex should be the expression of intimacy, not simply the means of achiaving intimacy.

The age old struggle of the man needing sex to feel close and the woman needing to feel close to have sex. Ideally, wqe should both be feeling close, and sex is the expression of that.

It becomes particularly challenging when it is the wife who is taking the first step. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it becomes a challenge.

Girl, you are just chock full of shoulds and rules. How could anyone enjoy talking to you if you talk like this?????

Bubbles,

She didn't ype her statement in bold or enlarge in her original post, I did that so she would know the exact statement I was questioning. I include the other part so others reading would know why she made that statement....did I make that clear???...

The point I was trying to make was that Ms. Thinking seems to think that woment who meet their H's need for sex even if they are not "in love" with their H's are some kind of bad word.....
a type of woman she "wouldn't" want to be. She seems to find it insulting for a wife to have sex with her H even if she is not "in love" with him....I tend to wonder why???

To me those words should be reserved for where they belong, which isn't a wife who meets her H's need for sex...but again, that's me.... ....

Bubbles, good call on the "shoulds." There is none so blind . . .




Thank you!

I'm not sure where that leaves me. Guess it leaves me "thinkin" as the screen name suggests!

I guess it's not that I find it insulting for a wife to have sex with her husband when she is not in love. More that it seems dishonest. I say seems. I'm open to otehr views, though I may not agree.

I suppose the way I phrased that whole bit that you originally quotes was a bit over-dramatic. Could have done better

Well it's now time to go home since I just spent the last 1/2 hour trying to read through all of this...

Let me interject this for you to think about till I can gt back here: SF is to your H as Conversation is to you. Recreational companionship is for your husband what Affection is to you. SF is NOT just physical release or just an orgasm which can be self-induced. SF is what makes him feel the things you long to feel by him having intimate conversation with you.

He SHOULD meet your ENs. And YOU should meet HIS. This is the Care portion of MB.

But what took all that out of your Love Bank to begin with was lack of the Protection of MB, that is, avoiding Love Busters.

No matter how much you put in, if you keep taking out then nothing ever fills up.

SF is the BIGGEST deposit you can make.

Conversation or Affection is how HE needs to make those deposits. He isn't intentionally refusing to meet your ENs, he is ignorant of what has to happen because the world view is that marriage is supposed to be two unhappy people sacrificing for each other in order to be miserable together.

He doesn't see the need to maintain a love relationship because he thinks love is magic and once gone it is gone forever. He doesn't make deposits because his Love Bank isn't overflowing.

Mark (leaving work to go fill my wife's Love Bank - or at least make a deposit)

Today's discussion on the thread has left me profoundly humbled. Not2Fun, your words of wisdom on the other "sex" thread apparently got through, too.

I have remorse for the damage I have done. I "think" I even have a bit of real humility, though I'm not sure, because once you say you have humility that's when you know you don't

But thank you all. You are not just friends of my marriage. You are friends of my personal recovery and tools in the hand of my higher power. God bless you, and change me.

Mark, I'm not sure how much mroe I need to work on the buyer renter thing. Actually, I think I need a break to let this sink in.

I need a break. It's not because any of you scared me off. I just need to process a little on my own. Thank you thank you!

Hey, dont worry,....it is a lot in one day. A lot was stirred up for you....hopefully you will discover more within yourself because of it. Blessings are not always easy...but they are good.

http://bible.cc/genesis/2-24.htm
http://bible.cc/mark/10-8.htm

It is everywhere this idea. I dont want to copy all the different parts I have found...but here are a couple of them.

http://www.gotquestions.org/one-flesh-marriage.html
http://www.thegracetabernacle.org/quotes/Marriage-One_Flesh.htm

I learned some things from this last couple...I have to quit learning things tonight and go to bed already!!

Outside of marriage I did not promise to forsake all others. If my partner is not meeting my emotional needs outside of marriage, I can tell her goodbye and leave and find someone else who is willing to meet my emotional needs.

Inside of marriage I have promised to forsake all others. Now if my wife does not meet my emotional need for sexual fulfillment, I have no hope at all of having it met. That is the difference.

Of course, if you think there is an escape hatch somewhere - an affair, a divorce, an annulment - then the problem might seem so urgent. But I don't believe in any of those escape hatches.

I never had sex prior to my wedding night with Prisca. I fell in love with her without sex. I have never had sex with anyone else. And I will never divorce her unless she becomes sexually unfaithful. Before getting married, even though that need was not met, I had the hope that it would be met, potentially, some day. Now, if it is not met, I have no hope.

If and when you fill out an Emotional Needs Questionnaire, be sure to make note for him of this need you have for Physical Attractiveness in your spouse.

For the record, my wife has the opposite need. I need to shave and trim the edges, but the beard can't go away.

Really? You know this how?

Withholding sex from your spouse unless they do what you want turns all your requests into selfish demands. And it's certainly not healthy, according to St. Paul...

1Corinthians 7.5
"Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again lest Satan tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Am I remembering correctly that you are Catholic, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Aren't these integrated? Doesn't God want you to become the right person for your husband, for God's sake?

I know that that is my mission. My ministry is my wife. That's the calling God has given me.

Sorry I'm responding to such old posts. I wound up here on a forum search. I hope my comments are helpful.

Jewish teachings also distinguish between pre-marital sex and sex between husband and wife. What is inappropriate and unhealthy for one group is desirable for the other. It has long been the tradition that sexual relations between husband and wife on Shabbat is a "double mitzvah" because it encompasses sexual relations among spouses and celebration of the Sabbath. No such honor is accorded to sex between unmarried persons, whether on Shabbat or otherwise.

Sex isn't "marital currency." It's a EN. It may not be an EN for you, but that doesn't mean it isn't an EN for your husband.


I have thought along those lines within the last few months. I HAVE NO DESIRE FOR SEX with my husband right now. I shouldn't HAVE to have sex when I don't like it. I am not in love with him. It doesn't feel right. Sometimes it feels gross. I even "politely" requested that we go a month without sex so that we could concentrate on other parts of our relationship (namely, MY EN).

Steve Harley explained to me on the phone the other day how my husband feels about sex, though. He told me that for men, sex is a CAUSE of connectedness -- it is how he feels cared for. While for women, sex is a PRODUCT of connectedness -- she needs to feel cared for first before she has any interest.

Neither one is right or wrong, it's just how we're different. He needs it to feel close. It's true, whether we understand it or not. You can repeat over and over that sex should just be an expression of being close all you want, but it won't make it true for most men. If you want your husband to feel cared for, you will have sex with him.

Steve told me that this is going to feel like putting the cart in front of the horse for awhile. And it does, it really does. It feels empty. Lifeless. Forced. But my husband looks so much more happy now. Steve told me that I would eventually feel desire, once my husband becomes better at meeting my EN and stops LB.

But somebody's gotta go first. The husband feels uncared for because his EN of SF is not being met and so he doesn't want to do anything for the wife, while the wife feels uncared for because her EN are not being met and so she DEFINITELY doesn't want sex. They both can sit there, glaring at each other, waiting for the other to make the first move. Or, one or both of them can start taking the steps it takes to move back to intimacy.



And it's also equally challenging for a husband to take the steps he needs to take to care for his wife when his wife won't meet HIS EN, especially SF. Ask Markos

Markos, thanks for those articles. They were helpful

This really speaks to me Markos. Thank you.

It is hard to take "sex advice" from men, because it's in their vested interest to make sure we women understand that SF is a legitimate need. It doesn't help that I have used and been used sexually (even with my husband). But this gets through to me and makes intellectual sense.

I may actually be a convert

He knows. I have made the "thoughtful request" enough times. I think at ths point bringing it back up is overkill. He knows what I would prefer, and when I start meeting his EN adequately, I have no doubt he will take better care of himself. I know I've used physical appearance as a distancing tool too, and I woulnd't be surprised if that is part of why he neglects this area. He's very down on himself for other reasons (besides my rejection of him) and I am sure that is part of it too.

Take the husband into the shower with you and wash him. All over. Then shave him. Then pleasure him.

He will be stunned, amazed, and probably pleased.

Yes, I'm Catholic. And I think that quote you used from Corithians is part of my stance on how I am handling SF now, with regard to the fertility cycle thing. I really do believe in the POJA, and I can most definitely enthusiastically engage in SF as long as there is no fear of getting PG. Conversely, can't enthusiastically agree when I know there's a chance.

I think it is hard because he doesn't know beforehand when I'm "safe" for sex and when I'm not. I would love for us both to do the charting and stuff together, that way he would know when my body is "open for business" (sorry to be crass, I'm actually just trying to be light about it!). But he doesn't seem very interested in that right now. We have both been so withdrawn right now that I kow we will have to take it one day at a time and just let things develope naturally. Since he agrees that we should not have more kids, at least that's not a point of contention.

I know there are other ways of "satisfying" him. But I really am averse to oral sex. I don't mind other stuff though, but it is not as easy as "the real thing." if you know what I mean.

OK, we're a bit outside my comfort zone now

(probably because there are "guys" reading!)

I think my statement about it being unhealthy is a reflection of me applying renter rules to a buyer situation. I am beginning to see the error in that thinking.

Yeah, I think that's the case for me too, ultimately. It's just that right now, I don't LIKE that ministry very much. But I know in my heart that I would have had this same problem in marriage to ANYONE. The names and some of the details might have been different, but I know this is a ME problem as much as it is a We problem or a HIM problem. Mark's posts about his story have really helped me with this though. And you too, for that matter.

There was a time that I was excited about this ministry and vocation of marriage. Yes, I had doubts, but I also had faith. Somewhere along the line I have lost that faith, but recently I have allowed myself to go back to those memories, and it is very bittersweet. I'm doing a lot of crying these days. I am firmly in conflict and it sucks, because my husband is most definitely in withdrawl and does very much want to skip the conflict stage and go straight to intimacy.

I know that how I act will determine how long we stay in teh conflict stage. That is something I do have some control over. Well, I have resposibility for the EFFORT anyway. The outcome depends on us both.

Incidentally, pay special note of my wife's comment that when a man is being sexually fulfilled by his wife, he feels cared for ... and then know this: when a man is having this need met, he feels cared for, not just by his wife -- he feels cared for by God.

If I remember right, your husband is not Catholic, and you would like him to be ...

Thank you for your thoughts too Prisca.

What I am running into here is an age-old power struggle. I grew up with a sense of powerlessness. As a child, I acted that out by having a vivid imagination and fantasy world. As a teenager, I acted it out in my relationships with guys, and being a virgin and holding onto my virginity played into that very nicely. As a young woman who gave up her virginity and felt very remorseful regarding the circumstances, I started acting out in lots of other ways, and marriage was a part of that play, sadly. I have felt so out of control that I've held very tight control to the only thing I think I DO control . . . my body.

When you believe that you have no control in other areas of your life, that you are powerless, your grasp at whatever you can. It is abuse, plain and simple, and I know that. The key for me has been to see what other things I really DO have control over. And to realize the things that I am powerless over and let go. It is easier said than done. And you all are seeing on the "marriage" struggles that I am sharing. There is a lot more that I don't post about . . . family of origin, children, career, health, etc. I'm glad that I can share this part of my healing with you all though, because you are all so instrumental to me right now, and I am very grateful.

Because of you I have hope. I have courage and motivation, which I so desperately need. Because I am really afraid of the disappointment. Not that I won't be perfect, because I know that's not possible. But that I will fail.

OK, I need to go cry now. Please tell me I can do this....

Thanks Markos.

You know what I have learned over the past week, thinking?

Sex IS "MARITAL CURRENCY" - just like these familiar items listed below...
Affection
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration


It's really just that simple.

it's the same for the woman.....I have agreed to forsake all others and have NO HOPE of my EN for love, affection and so on to be met ever either....it's the same...his SF isn't greater somehow than my EN's.....I believe this is what is wrong...as a couple you must sit down and be honest enough to say WE have'nt been meeting one anothers most top EN's and WE have ruined our relationship....so WE must do something about that....start meeting the EN's right then and there so both of us win and nobody is doing any act (sex included) grudglingly....geez if my spouse thought I was forcing myself to have sex with him I can't imagine how he would react...badly I think...and I don't want to do it that way....I never have.

......you CAN!!!!!

But it will take time....:.:

Not2fun

You absolutely can do this Thinking!

I believe you can.

I may not be Catholic, but as Mulcahey on M*A*S*H used to say, I can transpose. If my reading of Catholic theology is correct, in marriage, you receive exactly the grace from God that you need in order to become capable of being the wife your husband needs to have from God:


http://www.catholic-pages.com/marriage/sacrament.asp

It would seem that you can do this, indeed.

I guess I need to abandon the term "marital currency" Not that it's not an acurate word in some cases (like when one or both is a renter).

What I meant (and still mean) by "marital currency" is the idea that I "buy" having my EN met by "paying" for it with meeting other EN. Sometimes the exchange is mutually agreable, and sometimes it is not. The idea of sacrifice that so many of us go into marriage with.

When it finally clicked that I need to give for the sake of giving, because it is what I was created to do, that shifted my perception about marriage, at least on this issue.

I'm sure I will still be struggling to refocus my thinking in other areas.

There is more to intimacy than SF, and many men enjoy and need those without SF, but what Steve Harley told Prisca, as a generalization, is very accurate:


If sexual relations in your marriage is one-sided, selfish, unfulfilling, or infrequent, you probably didn't get there all of a sudden. It was a downward spiral of this LB leading to that unmet EN, round and round. You are going to have to spiral it back up, and that means you have to do what you ought to do at the moment, not just what you feel like doing.

Yes, you have marital duties, a bunch of them. Those who dislike the concept of duty in marriage are usually those opposed to traditional marriage, or opposed to marriage altogether. "Duty, sir, is the most sublime word in the English language," said Robert E. Lee, and he was not just talking about the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Conversation: women want more of it. Well, a man isn't going to engage in intimate conversation with any woman he doesn't trust, and he isn't going to trust a wife who has lost interest in sex, or lost interest in sex just with him.

Financial security is a big EN for women. If you aren't acting like you love your husband, he won't feel loved. He won't feel like working or saving or investing to benefit his roommate.

Extra cooking and cleaning don't earn points that you can redeem for Love Bank deposits in lieu of SF. Think you don't need to bother with SF this month because you are sewing draperies? Or even worse, you don't have time for SF, UA, or RC because you are too busy with other people at church, school, work, the Garden Club, etc. He should understand, right? Oh yeah, he understands, loud and clear.

SF is a big deal because dismissing the need for regular SF is usually just one of may forms of rejection being practiced along with it: walking out the door without a goodbye kiss, not meeting your spouse at the door when they come home, not wanting to snuggle while watching TV, rolling over and turning out the light in bed without a kiss - it's usually a package deal.

Yes, being on the other end of a sex shortage, the pain and rejection it causes is really awful. We worked it out but it was not easy, took a few years, and MB helped me work it out with my husband.

If there is no loving sex and a lot of it, then your spouse is nothing but a meal ticket. What a waste married to a meal ticket.

No fun feeling like just a meal ticket or hired domestic help, either.

I believe Retread is right about all of the above

From my recent experience, my was the first to start doing all of things Retread described in the last paragraph since the activation of SF and I am being sure that I am open and ready for it...as well as doing it myself.

This is definitely a true statement. It would be very hard to determine "who started it" . . . I am willing to say that I started it, because I was so depressed and withdrawn when we first started dating. Then again, he had a "rule" about us not even kissing until I had gotten an STD/Aids test, so it was a very unusually slow starting relationship physically for me. Up to that point, I was one who typically got close physically right away (not necessarily "all the way" but very physically affectionate and doing a lot of buildup to deeper physical intimacy, as the emotional intimacy grew.) We dated for almost two months before we had ever even kissed . . . going out about 2 times a week. And we went straight from kissing to going all the way in one night. This was probably the best sexual experience I�ve had with him, and it ranks up there as one of the best in general, which is a good thing.

Today I have mixed feelings about the whole STD test thing. At the time I took it to be a sign that he was very responsible and cared about his own health and safety enough to set that boundary. And because I was so �out of sorts� emotionally during that time, I was VERY OK with it. But looking back, I think that�s because I really wasn�t �ready� for a physical relationship with ANYONE. When we started dating I had been doing a lot of very casual dating, and one of the guys who I was very interested in, who was the same faith, good job, attractive, funny, all that stuff I was looking for, attempted to push me further than I wanted to go. He didn�t get away with it, but he utterly humiliated me with his words. I have forgiven him a long time ago, as he came from a very damaged background (see a theme here?). So I was incredibly gun-shy about any kind of physical relationship with the other guys who asked me out. When it came up after the second date with my husband and he wanted me to get the test, I was relieved to be given a �stay of execution� so to speak. But by the time the results came back clean, we had focused on the other EN enough that I was more than ready.

Sadly, I think that is the last time we ever had such free and open conversation. It wasn�t so much the topics either. It was the �lightness� of it. I talked about my history, he talked about his, there was so much compassion. And as soon as we had sex, that compassion was like a slow drip oozing out of our relationship. And I was so depressed that I didn�t notice. And he was so used to NOT having women treat him with any kind of kindness or admiration that the little bit that I doled out (which WAS substantial, but not what I�m capable of either) that he never considered that he should be getting more from someone who he would consider as potential wife material.

We HAVE had conversation since then, sometimes about superficial stuff, sometimes about really deep relationship stuff. I don�t mind the superficial stuff but want a little more sharing. I don�t mind the deep relationship stuff either, but it is VERY heavy, and I do understand why he avoids it. It was far better in the beginning when it was met with compassion on both sides. It�s like both of us have lost that, and I�m hoping that I can cultivate it enough to coax it out of him. That may be hard given his family history though. He knows that he needs to be more compassionate, not just to me, but to the kids too, but he doesn�t know how, and he has seen so many shrinks that he refuses to get help at all. I don�t blame him on the shrink thing, but there are other ways to get help. I guess it�s just not worth it enough for him yet.



He actually pushes me to do some of these things. One of the phrases I�ve seen tossed around here is that the goal of MB is to become each other�s favorite recreational activity. I do know what that feels like, because I�ve had in once or twice in dating relationships. It�s GREAT, and I want that with my husband so much! I always had this vision of being married to my best friend. Well, it�s never been like that, and I have been VERY stuck on the idea that if it was never there to start with, that it can�t be created. I understand the idea that people in love lose the feeling of being in love. But can people who were never in love to start with fall deeply in love? MB says yes, and I choose to have faith in that until proven otherwise. I thought marriage would make us fall in love, because we�d be necessarily be spending more time together. And, I may be right yet!

I have developed a lot of IB as part of the cycle. But most of that (not all, but most) has been in reaction to rejection from him, with his stated sanctioning. And actually, I have made some improvements in this area throughout our marriage. I used to hate the �cell phone tether� but now I am very good at checking in and telling him where I am, what I�m doing, if I�m going to be coming home later than expected and why (geez that makes me sound like I�m out all the time . . . don�t I wish!) And I am also much better at giving him �first right of refusal� about most things. I slip sometimes.

I�m not really that involved in a lot of outside activities, especially after the third pregnancy. I just don�t have it in me. I�m not at church all week, at least not most of the time, and hardly ever in the evening. Now this week, it is a sacrifice. It�s Holy Week and I would love to be there for services every night. But I�m not sacrificing for him. I�m sacrificing for the kids, and that IS part of the deal

I would give up my IB in a heartbeat if it meant that I could trade it for equally as satisfying time with my spouse. I would give it up in a heartbeat even without a �trade� if my spouse asked me to. Do you think he is afraid that if I give up my IB, that will put him in a position of having to give up his IB and he�s not ready to give it up?

Which leads me to another, less important EN issue. I typically dress myself in a �put together� way, as much as I can being the mother of small children. I wear a lot of jeans and t-shirts, but I tuck in the Ts and I usually wear some modest jewelry to accessorize, wear light lipstick. Nothing over the top, certainly not even business casual, but nice. And I prefer to dress up a little bit with a skirt and nice top and shoes for church. My husband comments all the time about how nice I look and how slobby he looks (he uses that word, not me). I�m in great shape physically, while he probably could drop about 20-30 lbs. (The weight doesn�t really bother me much BTW. I�d love if he�d lose weight, but it has never been a complaint of mine). It�s as if my attempts to keep up my appearance actually make him feel really insecure, and I am at a loss for how to handle this. I try to avoid it or brush it off when he puts himself down. (And putting himself down is a LB to me, which I will share when appropriate.) Yes, I�ve shared with him that I�d like for him to shave his cheeks and trim the gotee regularly, but it�s not something I badger him about because he knows, and I don�t think I�ve ever insulted him or anything like that. �Do I look fat in this?� I have no idea how to answer that question! And I�m a woman! Usually I say that I think he looks just fine to me, and it�s the truth.


I�m not sure if this has been missed in the whole sex topic. SF is one of MY top needs! I would put it right up there at the very top just under Conversation, or maybe right next to it even. I am a very sexual, sensual person, and I miss that part of my life desperately. Those other forms of rejection you state are not just what I have done to him over time . . . he has done them to me, too. I would LOVE to snuggle in bed before we go to sleep, or while watching TV. I would LOVE for us to kiss each other when we come and go. I absolutely know the pain of not having those things. It is actually FAR more painful than the rejection of not feeling like a having a conversation. It cuts very deep.

Some of it is lifestyle issues. He doesn�t typically like watching TV. We used to watch stuff together a lot more before kids, but even then it wasn�t much and now it is even less. He�s just not a TV guy. I LOVE watching TV and movies and would love to do it with him! Or the bed thing. He is a night owl by nature, while I�m more of a morning person. However, if the conversation is good, it�s like high test coffee for me! But he and I have VERY different routines when it comes to bed, and that is a major source of frustration for me. We have tried to negotiate this issue in good faith, and have not been able to arrive at a mutually agreeable solution. THIS IS CRAZY!!!! IT�S JUST BEDTIME!!!! THIS SHOULD BE AN EASY ONE!!!!!! (Can you sense my frustration?) I say that humorously, because I have (mostly) accepted that this is one of those things that will not likely change even if all the other MB stuff �takes.� I think I have a better chance of him converting and becoming a deacon And really, I don�t think I�d want that either.

I�ve read a lot of Lurioosi�s threads and posts, and her struggle would be very hard for me. I wouldn�t trade.

I think this is why I �get� what a lot of you are saying about sex. Because I do understand the rejection, at least from my own perspective. I think it is even harder for men, especially when you�ve put it the way you do. I�ve read Hold�s posts too, and I don�t ever want to do that to my husband. It makes me ill to think that I�ve been on a slow steady path to doing just that.

OK, I�ve talked a lot about my husband, and I really don�t want to focus on �complaining� about him. I think I�ve balanced it with the �me� stuff too. I just want to fill in a little more background, and some of the �little� struggles that may have simple solutions that I�m overlooking.

I just re-read what I posted, and I forgot one major thing:

I really don't CARE "who started" the downward spiral, because at this point, we have both been feeding into it.

Bubbles, you asked WAY back about exactly WHAT I was stopping . . . I am stopping the cycle. Now I know that a lot of you will think that my once a month minimum is a lot of nonsense, but it is a huge improvement. Back in December my husband said that as we were "repairing" things that he would take sex "off the table" for a while, because he knew that pressure was getting to me. BLESS HIM!!! I felt this HUGE weight lift from me almost literally, and I have never been so positive and loving toward him! I also experienced this during my postpartum non-sex times, which I'm sure the oxytocin was helping too. This does show that he is willing to work. That said, that lack of pressure lasted about 2 weeks He did try though. That is when I came up with my temporary solution. I truly don't want to utterly deprive him or be in a sexless marriage.

Please understand that my goal is to increase the sexual frequency gradually. As I said, it's one of my top needs too. Catholic guilt aside (hehehe! I've found that southern baptist guilt is FAR more potent LOL!)

I think there are a lot of "cycles" that need to be stopped. The SF is just one of them.

Stopping LB is a top priority for me. And as I've said before, he is noticing a difference. He says I've been a lot nicer in the last few weeks (which really is saying something, because in the last two months I've also been coming to grips with the eating disorder, having a lot of "milestones" in my alanon program, on top of a TON of work for my business and the stewardship renewal at my church, which I was handling pretty much alone).

As far as conversation go, we definitely have had it, but it's heavy. I try very hard to just listen and reflect. i fail sometimes, but I know that if I were trying to do the same thing last year at this time, we'd probably be sleeping in separate bedrooms by now. Progress not perfection

Thinking,

I don't understand your rationale for doing it "gradually".

JUMP IN.



This is called "sacrifice" and we know where that mess leads.

Thinking,

2 x 4 alert:











Please consider how you would feel if one of your TOP ENs was filled "gradually." This plan of yours seems to be pointed in the direction of Resentment. Have sex with your husband.




Dear Thinking,

HAVE SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND.

your pal,
Chris






Thinking, have sex with your husband and have sex with him when he feels like it whether you feel like it or not and what's more - if you like something he does during the act (I don't care how small it is) ask for more of it. Since you are a sensual person (your words ) I'll wager that you will really get into it & you will see something magical happen in your marriage.




Please try this for FIVE DAYS and report back.

Chris, I'm not sure if I've said this in my thread or not.

I do OFFER more than once a month. That was my minimum, my starting point. He is in withdrawl. He has actually said no. In fact, the last "round" on night 1 I offered and he said no. Second night, he said yes, but I screwed it up by starting with a little chatting that went on too long for his taste and ticked him off, for which I IMMEDIATELY apologized, but he was no longer in the mood. On day 3 I offered again, he took me up on it, but there was no love for either of us. But I was there enthusiastically and willingly.

The month prior, we had 2 or 3 sexual encounters that were pretty decent physically, and I did what you said about telling him what I liked. I'm pretty good at communicating my sexual likes.

The main holdup right now is that i have about 3 weeks in which I know without doubt that I am not fertile, and one of them is when AF is around. Since condoms have failed once, BCP makes me both CRAZY and DRY, and he doesn't have a vasectomy YET, doesn't seem to be in a hurry to get it, we are kinda limited in what either one of us can be enthusiastic about.

Trust me I have done a LOT of motive checking on this, and while the birth control issue may have originally been a bit of a good excuse, it truly is NOT "just an excuse" right now.

I would LOVE to engage in other things of a sexual nature (except anal and BJ). But that seems to be more frustrating for him than anything.

The sexual rejection does go both ways on this.

I actually have a question about initiating, and you guys could chime in here and help me out.

I am willing to "amp up" the SF. But he already knows that it's something I have to work at it a bit. So he is also in withdrawl with the sex thing.

On top of that, he has stopped looking at the porn. I don't think I mentioned that yet. He has been "white nuckling it" for the past month, and I am unbelievably proud of him and have told him so. I'm not going to fly off the handle if he "slips" either, because I know it is hard to stop and I'm just honored that he shares this struggle with me. But one of the things he has said is that he now is not interested in ANY sex, I think because he said he is "dulling" his sex drive. That's not how he phrased it, but how I understood it. He talked about the guilt and that it's like his brain now thinks that all sex is bad.

Yes, I can see where my past rejection of him contributes to this. But it is not all me. I think he's stopping himself by telling himself "sex is bad" in order to stop the porn. Kinda like when I have said to myself, "Feelings of anger are bad," and as a result, I dull my feelings of anger, and also all my other more positive feelings.

I don't want to cause him any further harm. So I'm not sure if I should even offer SF. But he won't know when I am or am not willing to have a little SF time if I don't at least mention it to him. And I really would hate for him to ask it at the absolutely worst time of the month for that!

It is quite a delimma, and since I don't know how a guy's mind works, perhaps some of you could help me out on this.

In a lot of ways it is like we are starting from scratch on the sex thing. We know "what" to do once we get it started, but neither one of us seems to know how to get it started!

I feel like a completely inadequate newlywed, and I think he does too.

There are a lot of ways to initiate sex when you are breaking out of sexual withdrawal. Each can be tried, discarded, or embraced. These are baby steps toward great sex but can be solutions. We tried many of these when working out our issues...:

1. You can try a week or two (or more) of SCHEDULED SEX. You can make it as loose as the "last friday of the month" or as tight as 8PM on Friday April 13th. Schedule about 5 sex sessions out. Place a code for sex on the calander, schedule them together or apart and let the other person know.

2. You two can talk about frequency and a good time that you would enjoy having sex. For example you two could discuss that a good time for him is after 8PM on a Saturday nite. After the kids are in bed. You could say you would like that and also at noon on Saturday with the kids out of the house. then you can nail down a couple good times in the next few weeks.

3. You could talk to him about frequency he would like IF YOU TWO WERE GETTING ALONG GOOD LIKE BEFORE.

4. Signals like leaving a special pillow on the bed, that means sex will happen after 8PM that night. You have to be serious about what these signals mean since one time my H and I decided to turn on a special lamp in the master bedroom and that would mean SEX THAT NITE. Well, i saw the lamp on and started getting mentally ready for the pleasure and waited and waited for him to come upstairs. When he did not come upstairs until midnight I was getting upset. I reminded him of the light on and he said he FORGOT that that was what the lite was for. I was terribly hurt and stomped around for a while and slept in the other room.

5. Ask him to shave and he is then allowed to ask you to do some thing regarding your personal grooming. Tradsies.

6. He pleasures you one night, any way you want. Then, the next night you pleasure him. it can include IC but not needed if you want to try other things.

7. Set a day for sex every week if you want to fast track the sex life. Then both can plan.

8. Tell your husband you have the desire to improve your lovelives. Ask him to help you come up with ideas to do this.

I forgot you dont use BC so you are limited on days and times. If you used rythym and condoms or diaphram would that work to add more flexibility? He is so used to your rigid sex rules I guess you would have to show him another side of yourself so he could relax a little again about sex.

You could think of other ways to initiate sex. Many of the ways lift the burdon of ONE PERSON initiating. Scheduled sex is that way. If no one wants that burdon, then make it mechanical. Like sending an e-mail with a heart to remind both people of the scheduled date and time. If it is automatically scheduled, both might feel less push and akwardness in having to "actually initiate" as uncomfortable as that can be together with the added fears of rejection.

It is all experimentation to see what works to get your lives back on track, what does not work and why, and learn other things.

Those are a great help, Bubbles.

I don't think he is "used to my rigid sex rules" as much as he is baffled and confused about when is and is not a good time for sex. I think there is a lot of time when we could potentially do this, it's just the initiating that is difficult. Also, some of the ways that HE initiates are a LB to me. More on that later, because at this point, as long as he initiates in any way and I'm not worried about pregnancy, then I will not reject him. We can work on his LB later when it's a little less tense.

OK ya�ll, help me do a post-mortem on this.

This morning I went back to bed after oldest was on the bus. I rubbed husband�s chest, snuggled some, he responded by snuggling back, then taking my shirt and my pants off. Since I�m �ok� for sex and trying to make myself available, I didn�t reject him or try to pull away. He said some really nice things about wanting to stay married to me. The he tried intercourse. I was very open emotionally, but my body wasn�t responding and it was a little uncomfortable, and got moreso. So we stopped.

This is incredibly frustrating. This is what happened all the time during the first few months we were married. I was mentally willing, but my body was apparently not on the same page. Now there ARE medical issues that complicate things. I have a condition called interstitial cystitis, which is chronic but goes in remission when I�m pregnant and takes about a year and a half to two years later to return. It has not been a problem for most of our marriage, because I�m been pregnant or postpartum most of the last 9 years! But now it is apparently coming back, on top of everything else.

I worry that he interprets my pain and lack of arousal fluid as rejection, in the same way that I might experience his lack of an erection as rejection. (That�s not a problem BTW, just saying as an example).

I�m not sure how to deal with this aspect of the sex problem. The cells of the body have �pain memory� and often react to the stimulus that originally caused pain even if there is no reason for the pain. When we were first married and I was diagnosed with this condition, I had to be in months of physical therapy to undo the damage cause by my tensing muscles. I also got a treatment which helped the IC problem from the inside (IC is like a bladder infection except there is no biological cause, rather physiological, so the normal bladder infection treatments don�t work even though the symptoms are roughly the same.)

Obviously part of the solution is to seek treatment again, which will take some time to see the results of. It took about 4 months before I was able to comfrotably have sewx back when this happened our first year. This is NOT the best timing for this!

You see, my resistance to the whole sex thing is more than me just trying to hold it over his head, or to �hurt him before he hurts me� emotionally. The physical component is a very real challenge that is not just in my head! I have mentioned before that I think I have electric fence tendancies, and this is literally electric fence-like pain. It is sometimes better if we use lubrication, but my body is funny about that stuff. Sometimes it works great, but other times it�s like it burns my skin, and I usually don�t know it�s going to happen until AFTER it happens.

Any insight would be helpful, if there is any.

thinkin, what would you do if a sister called you with the BC dilemma? How about the shot, the in-the-arm I think it's called depo-provera, the nuvaring, that has a lower dose of chemicals than the pill. A friend had a laparoscopic tubal ligation after two "oops" kids. I don't know, is this something you want to resolve now, or is it okay now with how things are?

Thinkin, Dr. Harley has an article about pain in intercourse. Can you try that physical therapy again, would that help?

I can really relate. It's a real pain in the butt to make time to deal daily with this medical stuff that comes up!

I'm not OK with anything like surgery. If my life were in danger and my organs had to be removed or something that would be one thing.

I might be willing to try other hormonal things to see if they worked without the side effects. I'm just REALLY skittish about trying anything chemical because of the side effects. I got incredibly dry and didn't produce arousal fluid AT ALL. And if it's a lower dose, I do know people who have gotten pregnant on low-dose pills.

It's not just about "the rules" of the church. I can make up my onw mind what is and is not OK for me. The rules guide me in making that decision, but I do try to follow the siprit of the law moreso than the letter of the law. In this case, the spirit of the law is that we are not to play God with even our own lives, or our marriages. My body and my life and my marriage belong to God, for HIS purpose. We may abstain for a time by mutual consent. I tend to think ot the more temporary versions of birth control to fall in that category because they are temporary. The are "abstaining from procreation" FOR A TIME. For me, anything permanent like a tubal violates this. In the same way that the IUD violates the right to life because it prevents a fertlized egg from implanting. If I believe that life begins at conception, and IUD may be effect because it is killing a child before it gets the chance to implant.

I know not everyone agrees with this reasoning, and I am not going to force it on anyone else. But I know what is and is not right for me and what violates my conscience the most.

Yes, I've read Harley's article. MANY times. That is pretty much what we did when we had this problem when we were first married. However, neither of had 9 years worth of resentment and pain to work through at that point, so it took less time.

I think that my HUSBAND should also read Harley's article I'm not going to push it yet though. I don't want to push him into withdrawl just as he is peeking his head into the conflict stage.

I would be very frank with hubby and let him know you are going to the doc to try to get this problem treated.

Then you can use other methods - hand, mouth, between your breasts, be creative!

I don't want to get into too many details of your sex life, so I'll just say that if sex hurts I don't think you should have sex. I do think you should do something, though.

As always, I recommend reading (voraciously devouring!) everything Dr. Harley has to say about this subject:

* Sexual fulfillment chapter in His Needs, Her Needs
* 14 articles on sexual issues in the Q&A pages: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5520_qa.html , particularly "Pain during intercourse" and "How to overcome sexual aversion"
* Dr. Harley also recommends several books and seems to strongly suggest getting ahold of other books on the subject

Even if you've read it before, I say read it again!

Who would ever want sex without at least 1/2 hour of foreplay? Sounds like there is basically no forplay here. Is that true? Taking off your shirt and pants is not forplay. Is your husband's bedroom technique lacking? Is the fumbling, groping way he initiates a turn off?

If you are turned off by what he does or does not do in bed, then you will never be ready for intercourse. Plus you will not want to do other things either such as hand jobs.

"Taking off your shirt and pants is not forplay."

It's not????????

THANK YOU BUBBLES!!!!!

He is not very good in the foreplay area. I'm just not sure how to address this with him NOW when we are sort of on shaky ground.

He and I have been through this before . . . it's a part of that cycle that I'm trying to stop, and it's something that I have only lmited control over.

Being emotionally connected BEFOREHAND helps lessen the need for good foreplay. I think that is why I'm so focused on "him change, then I'll change." Because ultimately, I'm not sure he can change his "style".

I LOVE kissing. I would go for hours kissing if I could. But I really don't like kissing him, in part because of the facial hair, in part because of the way he uses his mouth and toungue. I have no idea how to fix that. We have deifnitely been able to work on the stuff he does with other parts of my body, and he is very good ONCE I'M AROUSED. It's getting there that's the hardest part. Staying there is hard for me too, because I have my mind going in a million directions thinking about the laundry, the kids schedules, the work that is sitting in my inbox upstairs, the fact that I'm STARVING! Because the TIMES he initiates often are really NOT good times for me.

The best times we have are when we've both had a full night sleep and I initiate first thing in the morning when I'm relxed. Now that the kids are older and out of their beds, that doesn't happen as often because I'm not relxed. Throw in my "rigid sex rules" as B$U so kind calls them, and it is quite a challenge. I think I'f we both went and got our various tubes tied, we still would have a huge uphill battle on our hands!

OK, I'm going to stop focusing on the negative. He wanted SF, and I willingly responded. And even though it wasn't stellar, we didn't get mad at each other either. It wasn't about the SF for either of us as much as it was the expression of our DESIRE to make it work and that is what is important.

Short term anyway. Long term we need to be having good sex.

Believer, not if it takes 20 seconds. It is not working for her! oh you are just kidding, right! LOL

BTW, I am OK with quickies. And that's what it was to be this morning.

I guess we need to be really "in love" for us to do quickies though!

There was a great article in Maxim about foreplay and how to do it. It was so ....manly. Like it was a man talking to men about how to do it.

Do this, then do that, but not this way...that type of thing. I can tell you if you are tired, your mind on 100 things, it is very hard to respond to even GREAT technique much less technique from him that actually TURNS YOU OFF by mistake.

you have to start over so to speak and teach him how to make love to you. I will try and find that Maxim article.

Yes, the better the relationship, the more possible QUICKIES are. Along with proper timing, mind not on 100 things, not hungry or tired, etc.

What can you do so you can be sure to take care of your basic needs (like eating?)Have you figured out why you are choosing not to take care of your basic needs? This kinda reminds me of the directions they give you in an airplane when the oxygen masks fall. You are supposed to put your oxygen mask on first, and then help others with their oxygen masks.

Have you considered streamlining your schedule? We've found, for instance that it's best to toss in one load of wash daily. We also run the laundry while we are sleeping. We also have minimal clothes (about 10 days worth for each person), so we are not maintaining a lot.

I hear you about quieting your mind. I'm a mother of two young children as well. I work several jobs (full time and part time.) I have hobbies and volunteer. And, though I don't do the day to day care of my children (my husband does that), I do manage all the other mom stuff, play dates, most appointment setting, birthday parties, toy shopping, clothes shopping, etc. I also take care of most of the financial stuff in our house.

It is possible to quiet your mind, even with a full plate. Would you consider trying to do something as simple as some deep breaths to focus in the present, before SF, or any time during the day for that matter.

http://www.top99women.com/content/sex-positions-foreplay-and-sex-tips

This is not the one i was thinking of...

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/relationships/irony+intercourse/1431580/story.html

Still trying to find that one artical.

I guess if you want to improve your marriage, you will have to make some (good) adjustments in the bedroom. It is difficult and almost embarrasing but you can do it if you put a lot of effort into finding good ways to communicate what he needs to do to turn you on. It is a trick to do this (telling him and showing him how to kiss and whatever) and then "still be turned on" by him trying the new things.

Cant find that good artical.

Viewing porn where the women never need much to get excited makes a man think that this is the way sex should be. Easy, quick, and just what the man wants.

But it is not true with real women.

Bubbles is on point with this comment:




Thinking,

There are medical issues, so they'll need to be addressed asap of course...


You'll figure something out as far as showing him how you like it...It may be a little embarrassing, but it will become less embarrassing the more you do it. In our case, after 11 years of being with my H, we decided that I'd use the "post it note method" from the other night. I am a grown woman but I am just too embarrassed to look him in the face and say



This morning I was trying to think of a short way to write out my next request so I could leave it under the keyboard in the afternoon.

Anyway, I just want to say that I'm so glad you are jumping into this!

Now...if only I could get ahold of my passive aggressive self-sabotage thing...

Thinking,
I so identify with your post about the pain. I had a baby a few months ago and the pain is still excruciating. What worse is SF is one of my tippy-top needs and I've NEVER had any trouble in this area before. Disclaimer: I'm haven't yet read all of this thread so I'm hoping this isn't completely off base.

I know there are other issues that make the situation more complicated than JUST the pain but I thought I'd share some things that have helped with us.

Foreplay does help but if something gets rubbed the wrong way thats it, the pain has started and it isn't going away. Since I know what feels good and what doesn't and it's hard to communicate that, sometimes I 'handle' myself and my husband lays next to me, just touching me and whispering sweet nothings in my ear.

For us, sex is about the intimacy and connection. It is very much a mental thing so sometimes just talking erotically helps when actual stimulation is too much. Or watching each other 'handle' ourselves works really well to achieve this too (Trying not to be too TMI)

Trying to keep him from feeling rejected is also something I try to do since, like you, my body just doesn't get itself worked up like it used to. I can be turned on like crazy in my head and my body just isn't going there. This happens especially in Quickie situations. In situations like that I try to please him and then tell him he can give me mine later. I make it very obvious that I enjoy pleasing him, because I do - but I make sure as best as I know how that he knows. When I think of him sexually through the day after something like that, I'll send him a text or IM saying 'It was really hot when you did_____________' or '__________ REALLY turned me on, looking forward to getting me some later'.

Being able to talk about sex in a safe, open manner is very important. Find something like or using Chris's Post It Note method is a genius idea! Also, the right lube could really help.

As far as dealing with the hundred and one things running through your mind keeping you from getting into that mood - I've found journaling or meditating helps me put it all on a mental shelf for later so I can focus on my DH now. I'm not saying when he initiates run to write in your journal, but by doing it every day my mind is more at peace.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

The basic needs thing really struck me. I have never been able to take care of my basic needs well. The times when I've done it the best were when I lived alone. When I live with othr people, I seem to shut down. It is hard to explain, and I don't have time right now to get into it. This is where the eating disorder comes in as well.

I think it is a symptom of a greater problem.

Just like some women (and men) don't ever "learn" how to clean a house because someone always did it for them. I think the same thing about my taking care of myself. Someone always did it for me. I was over-parented. And the fact that I now have 3 children makes it very difficult to take care of myself. I feel pulled in so many directions and feel like everyone is making demands, and it's more than I can handle sometimes, so I shut down and shut everyone out. I don't want to do that anymore, but saying I don't want to and making that decision is not enough. And unfortunately this is something a bit beyond the scope of MB.

I am hoping to get help. I need to make an appointment with an IC to help with some of these things. How do you find a pro-marriage IC? I have been seeing a MC for a while (totally useless and dull) but we have stopped that. And I've had other ICs before and I really have no idea how to find one that will whack me upside the head when I need it. I do have the name of one person who is familiar with Alanon, so that's where I was going to start. But pro-marriage too? What questions do I ask?

Then there's the physical thing. It will involve outpatient procedure under general anesthesia, and probably 8 weeks or so of physical therapy.

We're talking a lot of money here that we don't have in the budget. I'll have to work it in there I guess.

Then there's the physical thing. It will involve outpatient procedure under general anesthesia, and probably 8 weeks or so of physical therapy



AUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

If only you could get your husband to quit TURNING YOU OFF toward sex, and learn some good techniques, and you did not force yourself to have painful, turned off sex......THEN DO YOU SEE.....you would not need this surgery!!!!!!!


Auuuuuuuugggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!

I feel the pain of being with that APE you married!!!!!!

What he does to try to get you in bed is ABUSE!!!!!!!

I am only half kidding here, but I resolve NOT TO HAVE SEX AGAIN until you rid yourself of this husband.....I am kidding...but stilll.......aughhhhhhhhh! The pain of being with a man like that!

I would "go religious" too, if only to avoid him. I would pray I never had to have sex with him again. Or that he would change completely in the bedroom and become sensitive, loving, respectful, and sexy.

These men are NONE OF THAT!!!!

You're confused. It's not surgery., It's a procedure where they use a catheter. For most people this would not be painful. For me, with this condition, it is more painful than anything I can describe, and I have a high tolerance for pain, had three kids without drugs, have had kidney stones . . . So they put you under, blow up your bladder full of a cocktail of numbing drugs that help the bladder feel less irritated for a good long while (months).

The physical therapy is to work with the vaginal muscles that are so used to tightening. You know how they tell us to do Kegels? My pelvic floor didn't need kegels.

And the condition is not cause by bad sex. At least, not physiologically,.

I am a strong believer in the mind/body connection, and this may be my body "protecting" me. It started sometime after we began abstaining from sex before marriage, so we were engaged. Our wedding night was incredibly painful, and we were both taken by surprise because it hadn't really been an issue before.

I am sorry!!!!!


Aughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I know that if we do not have that kind of sex enough, GYN exams become difficult for me. That is the closest I have come to that kind of pain.

Sorry about your husband being that way. And he is a gamer besides the disrespect in the bedroom?????


AUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGJHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

I did not know the whole story. I guess you have to be SUPER RELIGIOUS IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY FORCE YOURSELF TO STAY MARRIED TO SUCH A MAN!!!!!!!!

Alanon/the church/nothing will help this man change into a good marriage partner......except perhaps YOU. You will have to take the reins and make him change into a good human being who is better in bed....I dont know.

I am at a loss ...sorry i misjudged you.

Think, if I remember, one of the stories in His Needs, Her Needs was almost exactly like that.

Have you read Dr. Harley's Q&A articles about sexual incompatibility here?

Well, I'll try to catch up between now and next Tuesday and weigh in when I get time...

We have a "promise" in alanon, that we may find contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. Well, I'm pretty sure I do not live with an alcoholic. But the same applies no matter what "disease" we live with, mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. When we begin to realize that we can't change other people and put the focus back on ourselves, it is then that we realize that "happiness is an inside job" and that I am responsible for my own happiness. There is a great Catholic speaker/author/lecturer who describes happiness simply as being good. Meaning, not knowing that I follow the rules perfectly, but that I do my best each day to follow my understanding of the will of God. It is when we fight the will of God with our own self-will that we end up unhappy. Anyway, I digress. My point is, I can be happy in knowing I have done my best regardless of what my husband does or does not do. I can be happy whetehr or not I am married. I can be happy whether or not I have children. I can be happy if I lose my house and my work and don't know when the next meal will come. Because that is my right. I have three rights. Life, free will, and the choice to persue goodness.

I like how you said this and I believe it also. I never thought of those three "rights" however. I inspired by that. I am thinking up some easy (or not) techniques you can put into practice to make your marriage better. Now that I know what the deal is finally.

Maybe I can give you some new ideas tomorrow or the next couple days. I think you have to learn to be as assertive as you have ever been, except assertive FOR YOU. I think we women fall gradually in these bad situations because we do not bravely and kindly assert our rights in the marriage.

You have the right to be respected, loved, sexually cherished (appreciated as if you were fine gold) and understood..... by your husband in the marriage. You may have to teach him to do this in a very assertive/kind way,.

Hopefully things will progress toward those goals.

I did think of one thing that you might try.

I know you feel out of control or a lack of control some of the time. If I felt this way I would want to know exactly what ways I felt OUT of control, what ways I feel IN CONTROL< and if I am OK with this. There could be 100 things from cooking, eating, cleaning, to money issues and religion, sex and friends...


I would make three columns in a spiral notebook, one for AM IN CONTROL, NOT IN MY CONTROL, OK WITH IT OR NOT OK.

Then list all the things in your life. You might find you are more or less in control than you think you are. You may see patterns that could help you break the cycles.

I hope the best for you. I want to come over and BAT that husband of yours...but maybe he can change.

Well, that was exhausting...

JK

Interstitial cystitis seems to be quite the problem for those unfortunate enough to have it. Since there seems to not be an answer to the cause a lot of doctors probably don't even consider it to be something actually treatable and so are not likely to figure out what can help.

In the bit of reading I did in the last half hour or so (you didn't think I'd jump in without knowing something, did you?) it can be made worse or the symptoms can become worse if you drink a lot acidic stuff. Coffee, tea, fruit juices all were mentioned in more than one article I found (Google es mi amigo) as things that often cause more severe symptoms.

Do you have other IC symptoms as well? Are your symptoms more in line with IC or vulvodynia? Not trying to be embarrassing here, just wondering.

My actual recommendation is to look for a doctor with possible solutions other than what you had to experience in times past. There may also be some simple folks remedies that work to curb symptoms but I understand that even medical treatment s can take while it work and have an effect. One website recommends drinking baking soda in water a few times per day to modify the PH in the bladder. Not certain how this would work but found the same on at least tow websites. What I read does say that it takes an hour or so to have any effect.

Since I am not a doctor, I suggest you find one who can figure this out because the alternative is not usually much fun from what I read tonight. I also read where the symptoms sometimes go away of their own accord just as mysteriously as they appeared at first. Not very promising was the fact that they sometimes return again in later years or last for many years before vanishing as if by magic.

I know my wife experienced pain during intercourse for a few years. She went in to have a hysterectomy and the doctor said he was amazed by sheer size of her ovaries and cervix. She hasn't experienced pain since though the hot flashes took a while and she was on estrogen replacement therapy for a while. One of the things they used for that REALLY improved the ole sex life...

Anyway, her pain went away, but her symptoms weren't really the same as for IC, so I don't know what to tell you so I guess I'd better shut the h377 up...

Shaddup Mark...

Just a side note, if IC is the problem you have, lube, natural or externally applied probably won't help much. The problem isn't going to go away by changing husbands either if that is the problem.

Mark <Shutting up now...>

Well, from what I know of IC in learning about it 8 years ago, it can be triggered by foods. Sadly, I'm not much of an eater as it is, and most of the "trigger foods" are staples in my diet. They recommend an elimination diet, which would mean the little I eat would be gone! I don't think it's a food issue in my case though.

I used to work at a place where I would get so caught up in the work that literally hours would go by without me peeing. I think it really upset the apple cart of my whole system. However, I had been out of that job for over a year when the symptoms of IC started. I don't know.

I found the solution before to be very effective, so I'm comfortable doing that again. I also have a new more natural-minded doc right now and she may be able to come up with some different remedies than the urologist.

I'm pretty sure it IS IC. The thing they look for is tiny punctures on the linig of the bladder. I had that.

We had anohter "experience" last evening that was a bit better for both of us. No intecourse, and I wasn't fully "there" but he is feeling a lot more hopeful right now, so that is what is most important to me now. I'm not sure the best time to deal with my needs.

Also, I don't think I am in need of the physical therapy as much this time around. My pelvic floor is 10 years older and has goenthrough 3 kids

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Let me explain why. If I believe that I have the "right" to anything other than what the good lord gave from the time he knit me together in my mother's womb, then I allow myself to be guided by a sense of entitlement that grows and grows as I continue to feed it. Do I have the right to be respected? Not really. Others have the RESPONSIBILITY to be respectful and choose. I have the right to my life, the right to make a choice (such as to set a boundary against the disrespectful person), and to persue doing good (meeting my own responsibilities).

Most of the things we toss around as "rights" are not really rights at all. They are "responsibilities" of all of us to provide care and protection to our fellows. We can choose to do this, or we can choose not to, and we can live with the consequences. The best situation, whether it be a marriage or a country, is where the participants are actually given the freedom to make those choices, whether it is a good choice or a bad choice. Those choice have consequences, sometimes the consequences affect other people. But coercing or forcing someone to meet their responsibility is tyranny, even in a relationship.

Now I do agree that I have to teach my husband to the degree that I have the responsibility to do good. I have the responsibility to provide care, protection, time and honesty for myself, and that means asking my husband for the care, protection and time and honesty that is inherent in the institution of marriage. If I were single, I would have to provide these things for myself in other ways, probably freindships, employment, etc. If my husband does not live up to his responsiblity, I have choices, and those choices have consequences. Just as HE has choices and consequences. The trick is to find out what choices are mine, which are his, and to not make his choices for him, because again, that is tyrany.

I'm a bit on the heady/intellectual side. And I have a tendancy to come off as self-righteous and arrogant. So asking him and teaching him in a kind compassionate way is where the biggest challeng comes for me. These things do not always come easily for me. But maybe that's why God brought the two of us together. Sometimes we only get what we need by giving away that which we don't have. Sometimes that is where the healing is. Because we know that it isn't really us, that it is actually a higher power or God working through me, and that is truly a healing force for everyone involved.

Markos said that his wife is his ministry and I really love that. In the catholic church we pray for vocations, and most of the time we just think of priests or deacons. But marriage is a sacramental ministry too. True, I don't really LIKE this ministry sometimes. It lacks fulfillment at times. But there are other times when it is very fulfilling in surpising ways. I just have to look for it.

My DH is my minstry....I like that too. It gives it a whole new feel. Not this "Do this so he will do that and the math works" thing. But a ministry. The thing about the math is that it might not ever work perfectly. So what do I do then? Chunk him (or he chunks me)? I don't think so!

Okay, sorry to have an epiphany all over your thread.

I was diagnosed with something before I got married. I was still a virgin and had never even used a tampon (yeah TMI...too bad ). I had to go back to the gyn 3 times before he could complete the exam. It was embarassing. Of course, I was terrified at the thought of the wedding night by that time. My doc actually told me to use lamaze breathing! It did work. But mine wasn't IC. I think it boiled down to good old fashion tension.

But anyway, I am glad you had a more positive experience this time. I had some thoughts about the most recent discussions, but for some reason my southern-ness makes it hard for me to write out "details", if ya catch my drift. Har har

Hey there Think,

What needs, if any, is your husband meeting for you.

That's a great question Bubbles, one that deserves more time than I have right now.

He definitely meets Financial Security for the most part. And that was one that he did NOT meet when we got engaged. He changed that area of his life a lot. He would still be a frivilous spender if left to his own devices, but I think taking the Dave Ramsey class helped both of us get our financial priorities in order, and also helped us tremendously in communicating about money and making decisions more jointly. We'd had a joint account before that, but after the class we had joint money, not his and mine.

I think he gives my admiration too, but that is not one of my top needs.

One of my top needs is recreation, and that was done much more before we had kids. Now, not so much. But that is the nature of parenthood, too, and it is also not as big a need for me now.

Again, I need to think about it more.

Another one that comes to mind is openness and honesty. He does not keep secrets.

On the other hand, he does not share his emotions. I do not believe he is emotionally honest with himself or anyone. I suppose this is a disrespectful judgement, but this is how I experience things.

He has stated himself that most of the time he feels only tow �emotions�: anger and nothingness. I know this has not always been the case. In fact, I know that when he is with his friends playing and RPG or miniature wargame, he is energetic and grinning from ear to ear. When he is hanging out with one of his friends while the go out shooting, they are both lively and fun to be around. He has to work at it with the kids, but there are times when he seems �happy� when he is playing with them, although this is usually just in small bursts. I have also seen him get sad or thoughtful on occasion. But I do understand what he is saying. He does not feel his own feelings. I know, because I�ve been there too, in the land of numbness and anger. I used to be very uncomfortable with my other feelings, but now I recognize them and accept that they are important but temporary.

So the way I see it, he cannot be open and honest about his feelings WITH ME, because he is not open and honest about them WITH HIMSELF. The feelings he does acknowledge, like anger and numbness and frustration, and sometimes fear, he shares willingly and unfailingly. His ability to meet the need for O&H is limited less by his willingness (I believe he is 100% willing), and more by is ability.

Call this a DJ if you want. Part of me thinks that it is. But it is how I experience O&H in our relationship.

I, for my part, and not very good at O&H. In part for the same reason. I don�t always KNOW what my thoughts and feelings are, or I am unable to find the right words without being disrespectful or DJ or AO. I also have a lot of fear of being O&H because of how he will reaction.

Well, I can�t control how he will react, so the solution to that is to not take it personally. I am responsible for the effort of being O&H to the best of my ability, and let go of the outcome.

Having the right words is something I can control. First, I can learn from the times when I�ve made mistakes. Lots of lessons there I can also think before I speak, or if it is something planned and not spontaneous I can share it with my sponsor or with you all first.

Knowing what my thoughts and feelings are is something I have only limited control over. I think being open to awareness is key, and I am. This is an area that has improved a lot over the last 6 months, and I see steady improvement as I continue my alanon program.

OK, back to sex for a minute. I'm going to post this on the other thread too.

I was reading Harley�s articles on sex again with new eyes and lots of stuff jumped out at me. First of all, I learned that I am suffering from both primary and secondary causes of pain with intercourse. And in my case, I believe the secondary causes are the ones that are impacting the situation greatly.

With regard to the Interstitial Cystitis, the pain that I experienced in the past with this was probably more secondary than primary. I had VERY tight vaginal muscles (my first OB said I would never deliver vaginally . . . boy was she wrong! I 3 without drugs and it was great!). And the technique that Harley describes for dealing with secondary causes is roughly what happened in physical therapy. Manual massage of my tight vaginal muscles, like you would massage a knot out of someone�s back. After 3 kids, I don�t think my vagina will ever be that tight again! In fact, I know a lot of women who have lots of pain with sex after having kids, but in my case, at least after Baby #1, the physical pain was no longer the problem, while the emotional pain took over.

OK, so I am probably dealing with a �secondary� source of pain. It is also likely the IC is making a return and should be dealt with. But there have been times lately when we have had painless sex or vaginal stimulation, so I don�t think it�s simply a physiological issue.

I think the key problem is arousal, as Bubbles, our local sex expert, has so keenly pointed out. This should have been a no-brainer for me, and I don�t know why I didn�t identify it myself. I do not get aroused easily by my husband, and it is incredibly frustrating for both of us.

From Harley�s article �Turning a Willingness to Make Love into a Desire to Make Love�:


He goes on to give other examples of foreplay that work for some women, but this is the one that works for me. Conversation, affection (not AS important) and kissing. OK, so essentially this is my point with the whole frustration over sex. I NEEEEEED conversation before sex. It is so validating to see this written in the good doc�s own words! If I engage in sex without at least conversation or good kissing, I never become aroused, and I have to rely on lubricants to get the job done, and lubricants alone are not enough to overcome the secondary pain which is not only a protective reflex but also an emotional protection issue as well . . . the memories of the times when my husband �finished� quickly, or didn�t hold me afterwards for long enough, or simply the bad memories of lack of foreplay. I guess I never realized that these things were affecting me like they are. I knew they bothered me, but I thought I was supposed to just get over it to make sure that his EN for SF was met.

So here�s the problem. Do I have sex WITHOUT being aroused because SF is an important EN to my husband, given the fact that it is ME who is �going first� and trying to bring him out of withdrawl to the point that he can then begin to meet my EN for conversation, and then the �good sex� can finally begin? If so, how long should I do this?

I ask how long, because this is essentially the action I�ve been taking for my entire marriage, almost 9 years. We have had sex regularly, on average once a week. I know that doesn�t sound like a lot, but when I hear stories of people who go months or years without sex, I can�t even imagine that. Back in December, my husband temporarily took sex �off the table� to let the pressure off me, for which I was very grateful. And even though he was ready to reengage about 2 weeks later, I was ready for sex a few weeks after that, even without feeling as emotionally connected as I would have liked. As I said, I too have a high need for SF (of excellent quality).

I want to be a little snot right now and say that the only way I can be enthusiastic about meeting our mutual need for SF is if he bucks up and learns how to talk with me in a way that arouses me. And I have serious doubts that he is capable of it because of our differences. I can�t change the way he kisses. So kissing isn�t going to cut it. And while I like affection, affection alone doesn�t cut it either. I do like affection, but not when it is being used to jump start sexual feelings. In fact, I can say with certainty that even in my past relationships, if a guy tried to jump from non-sexual affection straight to things of a sexual nature, and I wasn�t ready for it, I would shut down and begin to distrust affection itself, even though I have a need for affection.

So the way I see it, my arousal is dependent on HIM filling the need for conversation in an effective way. I hate that. It seems so un-MB based on the conversation we�ve been having on this topic this week.

Any thoughts? Where am I blind? How do I troubleshoot this?

How do I become aroused by the presence of my husband without him meeting my intimate EN?

Teach me this and I may be able to become a full blown convert

How do I become aroused by the presence of my husband without him meeting my intimate EN?

This is impossible...at least in my world. Maybe if you had a husband who was gorgeous, or you were a playacting porn star....maybe you could become aroused by looking at the man. Or being around him. Maybe.

But real men and women and normal people need other things to become aroused besides the mere presence of the spouse.

Jot it down...

Note the date...

I am in complete agreement with Stella.


Think,

Let me ask you what you think is supposed to happen here? You know the covers on those romance novels? Not bloody likely, I'm afraid. Just like not every time a couple engages in sex does it turn out like a scene in a porn flick.

In order to have his mere presence get you all revved up and ready for anything would take a monumental effort until he became a directed stimulus to cause you to be ready to mate based on being totally excited by things he has done long enough that his presence alone caused those things to take place in your body. I don't know ANYONE who can sustain that.

Might happen in a fantasy or someone you just happen to meet that trips just the right trigger in order to get you to respond, but with no experience with this person you are really only responding to a pure fantasy since even this powerful physical attraction can't be sustained in real life with anything that might distract you from the fantasy.

Now if after long periods of inept technique and sufficient fear on your part related to some incident with the pain of IC in the past, your body is refusing to allow a response to anything he might do for fear of the repetition of the pain of the past. This IS a directed response and becomes sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Your body tenses, shuts down, pain ensues and the cycle repeats. Rinse and repeat...

I would guess that the fear of pain is the single biggest reason women don't have sex with their husbands...

Well, right behind the woman's rights movement...(and anyone who feels like I need to be straightened out on this topic please start a new thread and call me out so we don't interrupt this one because I said something specific, meant what I said and not what some might assign to what I said and can in fact defend what I said though I have no inclination to defend against attacks against what I did not say)

Mark

OK, that's what I thought.

So what your saying is that in my case, I am justified in saying that he needs "go first" in meeting my EN that turn me on BEFORE I can meet his need (and my own) for SF.

That it's OK for me to require my ENs to be met first. Because my arousal depends on it.

This seems to contradict everything you were all saying about sex before, maybe because you didn't understand the whole picture.

Please keep in mind that I have had pleasurable sexual experiences before. Even with my husband, although that was in the VERY early days of our sexual relationship when it was still very much a fantasy. So I kow that I am capable of this.

I have profound sympathy for men suffering from ED.

I'm not saying I won't meet all his other EN. But maybe I just need to get a lot better at meeting them, not LBing, and practicing all the other stuff so that he falls in love with me enough to stop his LBing and becomes willing to meet my EN.

For the record, I think the chances of him becoming better at meeting my EN are greater than his chances of stopping the things that LB me. For me, that is the far greater problem, for which he would need help. The only reason I am able to stop my own bad behaviors is that I am willing to change, and I have admitted that I am powerless to do that without help from others and God.

I feel your pain on this one...and, with the MB info I am really learning how to make thoughtful requests.

You can too

This statement is not quite true. LBs are many things but most often, according to something SH told us, they are bad habits. And we can retrain ourselves to replace bad behavior with better behavior. I'm working on that right now with my kids...although my husband's AOs are a huge LB for me, I realized I tended to trip that AO switch with my kids far too often and justify it with "well they push my buttons!"

Of course they push my buttons; that's what kids do. But who made the choice to respond in anger? ME.

SH had the same response to my H when he said "well I get so angry when she says xyz over and over..."

Yes, I can stop saying xyz over and over and I am working on it.

He can stop AOing.

Together, the two things just *might* draw us closer and into a state of intimacy.

That state of intimacy just *might* lead me to want to prolong SF rather than just play my role for the sake of meeting his EN for now.

Prolonging SF will always result in increased arousal for me. I will often go into it with an "ok, let's just do this because I want to meet YOUR EN" frame of mind. He's zero-60 in less than a minute...fully aroused. I'm chugging along. But eventually, like the tortoise and the hare...guess who catches up and outpaces him?

I wandered a bit off topic here with the LB thing, but I was trying to get to a point (somewhere in there..) while thinking something through for myself as well. It helps sometimes to type out advice to others!

My point is that his LBs are bad habits and he can choose to replace them with better habits. Meeting your ENs while still LBing you is not going to get you into a state of intimacy so that you can even *want* to be close enough to him long enough to achieve satisfying SF.

I'd recommend getting him on the same page with you (and MB) re: lovebusters and having him work on those before the ENs. Think of his eliminating LBs as an EN of yours for now!

FWIW, I'm having a bit of a difficult time getting my own husband on board with this. Whenever he starts yelling at the kids (like I did/still do sometimes), I try the "habit" theory out on him and he is in no mood to hear it. His response is usually "I'm the Dad, I"m in control and what I say goes..I don't want to hear any backtalk from them!" (he has control issues!) So I need to pick a time when he is NOT angry to try to bring this up...or have SH bring it up in the context of eliminating the AOs in general.

Because I know if he's still thinking this about the kids, he's applying it to me as well..justifying his AOs in terms of something *I* did.

think you have mentioned "kissing" several times....are you saying that his kissing is not to your liking and you can't change that??

If so then I must admit I have this same problem...it is a deep dark secret that I have held for 20yrs of marriage...I truly thought while in courtship that I could "teach" him how but he just couldn't seem to catch on like other men I had kissed before....I miss those long passionate kissing make out sessions that make me so aroused in just a few moments.....I have had pain over thinking I'll never be kissed like that again as long as I live....he smokes and has bad breath most times also...and facial hair also that is so difficult to get past...I asked him to shave his large beard off and he kept it for almost 10yrs...about 1yr ago he suddenly shaved it off but has alway kept a mustache and mostly doesn't groom it well...long hairs growing over his lip and stuff....it's such a turn off...and then his technique is just awful...so I haven't french kissed my spouse in at least 18yrs or so....I am to afraid to talk about this or bring it up....I once told him during that he needed to touch me a certain way and he said "do you want to do it yourself!" he was hurt/mad....I just wanted to show him the spot to touch and how to do it....we did work thru that one but it took yrs and yrs...I don't get that reaction to be honest as I was a virgin with him and asked him over and over..do you like this...am I doing this right? I wasn't concerned about my pride or whatever...I wanted to learn to be a good lover and I was clueless w/o his feedback to me...he wasn't upset and answered me and so on and so I got better at it....I wish he was approachable....I miss the kissing and petting stuff....and I don't know how to approach this and can't right now as we haven't been having sexx for over 5mo's....but I am hopeful in future we will resolve things and return to it....and I want to address it and make it wonderful for both of us at that time....sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread...it's just that you mentioned the kissing and it triggered this in me....I have never told another living soul this and feel uncomfortable doing so now.

Thinking,

Regarding your comments about anger and numbness...I feel that my H has those as his primary / default setting. When we're out with friends or when he's playing with our child I do observe him smiling and laughing but he can very quickly leave that happy state and return to anger / numbness as soon as the contact with friends has ended or if during the play with our child something happens which he doesn't like or expect. At one point I thought about the fact that our child may be afraid to play with him because it could end with anger very quickly.

My H's moods can change in an instant, and the most comfortable place appears to be angry / numb. He tends to have a negative outlook on things...It's always about what he can't do. and what will not work because of reason abcdxyz. One thing which makes him happy: Shopping / spending $.

In short - I believe that my H feels angry / numb more than anything else and it makes me wonder if I can ever truly be happy in our marriage. You said you have had IC, but I wonder (actually I doubt) whether he would actually consider getting help.

You mentioned that you have been there (in the angry / numb mindset). Can you share anything about that from your perspective?

And that is a problem...MB math says meeting ENs will not up a Love bank balance while LBs are in effect. Pouring water into a glass with a big hole in the bottom will never fill the glass.


Has made a similar admission?

I am glad you expressed yourself regarding the kissing, hopefully you can think up some ideas of how to approach it NOW without stepping on your husband's delicate feelings yet getting what you want out of the kissing.

I know you can turn this around so he will kiss better!!!! I want you to think up 3 approaches of how you could attack this problem and then we will help you pick one.

Then, when you are feeling brave, you can execute one of the "change the way you kiss please" sexy behavior changes and your marriage will be better because of it.

Surely you could like having more frequent sex with him if he would just act sexy to you.

The bottom line is WE NEED, WE WANT, AND WE DESIRE THAT OUR SPOUSES ACT SEXY TO US, WE DO NOT WANT THEM TO ACCIDENTLY TURN US OFF, WE WANT THEM TO TURN US ON!!!!!

A man marries a woman hoping that she will never change.

A woman marries a man hoping he will change.

Both end up disappointed...


The most damaging Love Busters are annoying habits. AOs we can identify at once. SDs we can pick up on pretty easily (except when it is us doing them). DJ's take a lot of work to understand and only the one committing them can do anything about them. It takes awhile for the thinking to change that results in the new actions. We KNOW when we are lying and so can stop lying anytime we actually choose to do it. Sometimes we continue just because we always got something from it in the past but once we know we should quit doing it, follow up is just a matter of the will. We know when something was done without consulting us and our feelings were not considered before acting. We know if we acted independently.

But annoying habits are like cancer. They remain hidden from view and destroy the marriage a tiny bit at a time. They happen over and over again. The one doing them seldom even knows they are happening and the one that is being hurt by them seldom is able to identify the actual problem. We just know it annoys us when ___ happens. We tie ___ to our emotions. From our emotions we get pain. From the pain we end up resentful. From that resentment we begin to judge the motives and intent of the one who is annoying us...

BOTH Love Banks take a huge hit and nobody even knows why...

And every day we repeat the same thing again and again. The socks end up beside the hamper instead of in it. The dryer is left full of clothes that should have been folded, hung up and put away. The dishes are piled in the sink instead of placed in the dishwasher. The coffee is spilled on the counter and not wiped up...

Day in and day out we repeat habits without thinking about them. Our own habits lead to habits that our spouse learns in response. Nobody thinks. Nobody changes. Nobody knows that the love is dripping from the bucket one drop at a time.

Drip...

Drip...

Drip...

Annoying Habits are the OVERHEAD of a romantic relationship. They are the fees charged by our spouse's Love Bank and we don't know they being debited until we find ourselves overdrawn and nearly bankrupt.

Mark

Actually, we don't always know we are lying. Most of us go around lying to ourselves to varying degrees without being conscious of it.

It's called DENIAL.

Here's what it stands for:

Don't Even kNow I Am Lying

One of the reasons I married my husband is that we were/are pretty good at communication regarding most topics. That includes the annoying habits. There are some key things that he does that he refuses to change.

1. I do not want him to sleep as late in the morning as he does. He is chronicly late for work, and takes our child to school late, and on weekends when I am the only one up with the kids I am incredibly lonely without him. He knows this. I have beaten a dead horse about it. He won't change.

2. He stays up late and plays video games or paints figures. i don't mind a little of this, but his whole life revolves around this hobby. I thought it would taper off after we got married, and it did because some of his college buddies moved. But some of them didn't and he found more This is an IB that drives me up the wall. It's not that I want him to stop completely. I want it to be less of the focus of his life. I feel like I am selfish for wanting this. But at the same time, it impacts our life together. I feel that wife and family should come first and if there's an hour or two left over here and there, that's where the gaming should come in. A few hours a week. Not a few hours every night until 1 in the morning.

These are the two biggies. Of course, the anger as well.

That's very similar to how I've been directed to work Step One of alanon. First, make a list of the things I'm powerless over. Then pick the 10 most irritating and write about how trying to control them has made my life unmanageable. Not only was this exercise eye-opening for me on the unmanageability front, it also had the effect of making those things much less of a problem in my life. It was miraculous.

And yes, as one makes a list of unconttrolables, it also makes one aware of the controllables, too.

I�m not sure if this was just a rhetorical question. I guess I �expected� that marital sex would be similar to the positive sexual experiences I had prior to marriage with other partners, and even with my husband. Because I did have a lot of healthy, positive experiences. I also had a lot of negative experiences too, so I figured, avoid anything that looks, smells, tastes and feels like the negative experiences. However, the times that I had good SF in the past were in situations when I became aroused automatically, probably because my Love Bank was full and there was plenty of UA time and all the things that we talk about being present in a healthy marriage. With my husband, I find it very interesting that I wanted to �wait again� once we were engaged. My mom AND my therapist both commented (after I was married) that it seemed unusual to them that once I was engaged I�d be spending less time with my fianc� than more, and that I would become less welcoming of physical intimacy. I could �chicken and egg� it to death, but the bottom line is that he and I both made choices that depleted my Love Bank (and started on his) well before we were ever married. We started on very shaky ground, which is probably why 4 months in I was as much of a wreck as I was. And all the actions I took (the rollercoaster of withdrawl and conflict, all the times I tried to do the right things on the surface without having the right attitude within, etc.) contributed to the problem. So did his actions.

I expected that we would eat dinner together every night and watch TV together every evening and go to bed together and wake up together and make breakfast together and on weekends hang out around the house together doing all the stuff that needs to be done TOGETHER and it would be like one, long everlasting date. I imagined that we would be each other�s favorite recreational activity.


I actually do. College boyfriend. Even when we were in conflict, even when I was in withdrawl, the quality of our SF brought me out of it. So I actually do kinda understand how this works for men. However, the only time we ever had intercourse was also the LAST time we ever had intercourse. So our SF was for all intents and purposes, entirely foreplay. And our experience with intercourse was not good for either of us for many reasons. Had we been a married couple on our wedding night, we would have chocked it up to nerves and would probably have been able to resolve the issues together because of his superior skills in the foreplay area. He is now married and I am very glad that his skills are not going to waste! LOL (No, he doesn�t live anywhere near me, and we have no contact with each other, and I�m very grateful we DIDN�T work out. It was most definitely a bullet dodged!)

So I guess that�s kinda what I expected. Oops


I don�t know. I think the biggest reason women don�t have sex with their husbands is probably control. Both genders do that in their own ways. Yes, I think pain plays a role too. Especially during the childbearing years. I used to be on a moms board and was absolutely astounded at the difficulty people had after having children. In my case, having kids has made sex LESS painful on average simply because I no longer have the muscle tone, which in my case is a good thing.

I�m kinda with you on the last part to� I am a bit more traditional than progressive. I want nothing more than to give myself body and mind and spirit in trust and love. To be able to say �Take me.� I just can�t. �Have me� is the best I can do right now. (No I don�t literally say that to him!)

"Have me" is a start........

I think �withdrawn� is the best I can do to describe it. It�s not the kind of thing you can really explain except in retrospect.

It was like this for me with depression. I have always struggled with a long-term, low-grade depression, starting around the time I was 10. Not sure what triggered it, except perhaps the onset of puberty, and the fact that around that age, I became the sounding board for my parents� frustration with each other. I am grateful for this, because it has given me the ability to see problems from multiple perspectives.

Anyway, one day I just came to a realization that I was using depression to �hide� from other things (like marriage). When I realized this, it stopped being a problem. Now, I still get depressed. But it is a short-lived mood, not a prolonged state of semi-existance.

I was very numb when I met my husband. I was on the rebound from a painful breakup with no intention of serious dating, because I was emotionally numb. VERY normal. But I carried that numbness with me until one day by the grace of God it lifted. I believe it was held in place because of my inability to forgive. Several months after I had gotten married I prayed a very heartfelt prayer to God asking him to give me the ability to forgive the person who had hurt me so much, because I was robbing myself of joy even though this man was completely gone and out of my life. And it simply happened. It was all God and had nothing to do with any action I took other than praying the prayer.

Anger I still struggle with. I haven�t turned it over to God yet, because I�m not fully there yet. One has to be ready for God to remove our shortcomings, one must ask humbly, and then it�s up to God. He may remove the defect. Or he may not, because sometimes it is our defects that make us useful to Him. And that�s how I know it�s HIM working through me, and not me. Because he works in spite of my defects. If it weren�t for my defects, I would be very arrogant indeed. He removes our flaws in HIS time, not ours.

I think any feelings, especially negative ones, can be fed and kept alive. The trick is to feed the good ones, and not to feed the bad ones. I think Mark�s managing memories thread speaks to this a lot. We can�t necessarily control our feelings directly, but we can do things that contribute to their duration and severity. We can trigger ourselves.

Thanks

I admire you because you are really working hard to work all of this out.

No. I think I mentioned somewhere that he has been �porn-free� for a little over a month. I am very proud of him. But he is very proud of himself, too. In the not so flattering meaning of �proud�. He thinks it is great that he is doing this �without help.� The problem I see is that we may be able to stop doing a behavior with the force of our will, but if we don�t ever address the root source, it will just be acted out some other way. For example, he as been incredibly angry and irritable this month, about everything. He doesn�t see that it corresponds to the time frame of giving up porn. He still thinks this is something he has power over. And maybe he does. Maybe it�s really just an annoying habit that he can kick with willpower. That�s for him to decide.

I think most of his LBs are things that go beyond the scope of willpower. Actually, I believe all of our character defects are beyond the scope of willpower alone. Think about the people you know who are able to make noticeable changes in once-unacceptable behavior (I�m not talking leaving up the toilet seat here). Chances are it was not their willpower that made them change. It was the DECISION and DESIRE that was their part. But likely beyond that, they probably had help, in the form of accountability, religious faith, spiritual help, healthy support from family and friends. We can make temporary changes without help, but I believe that change cannot be sustained without continually making that decision every day and seeking help every day.

Kind of like a 12-step program.

I had never thought of that Mark. I would have said IB is the most damaging. But I agree that I can definitely see how I LB in the other ways (even the Selfish Demands). Not all of it, but enough. But the annoying habits would be very hard to identify without him being able to provide some feedback.

I�m going to be extra vigilant on this from now and see if I notice anything I�m doing especially irritating him.