Mark, I read the rest of your post and I think you are preaching to the choir. Wish you could preach to my husband too, but he's not here.

He wants romantic love between us, but not at the expense of what is most important to him, and he's made that abundantly clear to me many times. It is painful for me to continue to ask. It is not painful for me to accept him as he is, at least not in the short term. I know you went for a long time not having your needs met before your wife came around. I don't have any timetables.

FYI, my top EN (in this order) are RC, SF, O&H, Conversation, Physical Attractiveness, Family Committment, Admiration, Financial Support, Domestic Support, and Affection. FC, Admiration, FS, DS and Affection are all about equal.

I guess I'm not the typical female

And my life (and marriage) does not reflect this priotity order AT ALL. No wonder I had been so dissatisfied! My husband's been busting his buns on FS and Affection, and to a lesser degree DS and FC, and completely neglecting the other areas. Yes, he wanted SF, and the lack of SF was more my side of the street than his. I was cutting off my nose to spite my face to some degree. However, SF with someone I'm not in love with is just not as fulfilling as what I'd ultimately want. KWIM?

Part of me would love to sell our 3,000 sq ft house, get a brick rancher with half the mortgage payment, sell all our "stuff" that takes up so much space and takes time away from each other, be all squished in the place so we can actually be forced to spend time together as a family instead of each person in their own corner of the house! I don't think I would get enthussiastic agreement on that though.

"I've been doing very little Recreation for our entire marriage, because I didn't want to do things alone, without him. He's been encouraging me for as long as I can remember to "get some friends" and "find some hobbies." I have been resistant to this for some reason, I think because deep down I knew this would be detrimental to building a compatible life together. Not that personal hobbies are bad or anything, within reason."

I have done this also....and did it for the same reasons....I also have shared this with my spouse on several occassions...that if I too began to engage in IB activities or excessive working hours....that we would never become compatible or have any chance of it happening...Dr.H calls it 2 ships passing in the night kind of marriage.

And that, my dear, is a DJ.

So find other things to do that you both enjoy so you can enjoy your RC time together.

You say that RC is one of your top ENs and in the same paragraph say that you have resisted doing it...

Sorry, not buying it.

When you do things for your own RC time, what kind of things do you do? Who do you do them with? What specific activities do you do while engaging in those activities? I'm fishing here, so help me out...I'm actually trying to show something without saying it or even alluding to it directly.

What I am trying to drive home here, Think, is that unless you find ways to become compatible you will become less so until you have nothing left in common except the children and when they are no longer the unifying factor because they begin to become more independent as well, there will be no foundation that can sustain your marriage any more. It isn't about commitment and effort, it is about doing the right things and just accepting your lot in life will not sustain a marriage in the long term.

I am not talking from MB here, but from experience.

Mark

Just a refresher: We have a problem.

I'd bet money that the order is wrong and that it is modified to fit some ideal you think should be true rather than a real reflection of your actual ENs. If you had SF as your number two need, you would be very unhappy when there was no SF. Feeling in love would come from having SF and not be something that you would even want to put off until you felt in love. Unhappiness would be the result of no SF and not lack of SF because you are unhappy.

RC time: Is you time focused on friends you have recreational activities with or are your recreational activities a way to get together with those friends and build relationship?

Yeah, it's possible that you really might be a woman with the EN order of a man...

Probabilities are pretty small however and I have seen numerous times women who thought that an EN for RC was what was being met by someone when in reality it was Conversation that took place during the recreational time together. This is really how affairs begin, Think, by being certain that we are different than "normal" and somehow "unique & special" and so what we are doing is alright because _____...

Mark

The famine is over! Mark is making long posts again!!!

<<<Markos

How would you feel about trying tabletop, pen and paper (not computer) role-playing games with him? How about other similar related activities: reading a fantasy novel together, for example? Sounds like you like conventions, travel, and shopping in game stores.

How does he (and you) feel about paintball?

Thinkin,

I am reading this thread with great interest as it seems to parallel my life some. I to feel like my husband's IB's were a part of him when we met and married. I think part of the attraction is that we didn't have to stop doing our "things". I was constantly referred to as the "cool" wife because I not only allowed his IB but encouraged it.

Initally I did join in but since his RC activities are mostly physical, it was never to the same extent that pleased him so he still needed the time with the guys to do the extreme stuff which is what he really enjoyed. I understood this because I too had some RC that required skills and frankly, playing with people less skilled than myself isn't tremendously fun. So it wasn't so much the activity as the skill level.

Children came...and my IB consisted of playdates and such. I actually thought we were in a better place than some of my friends because we didn't have to split up our RC time. I have a friend who fights constantly with her spouse. They both enjoy skiing but since having kids, can't do it as often or together so someone is always giving up.

Like you, I think if I had had MB from the beginning we'd have a whole different marriage....or maybe not gotten married at all. He married me because I let him do his things. He had always broken up with girls right before ski season to avoid conflict.

I am babbling now. If you recall I had an affair. His reaction surprised me. He has begun participating in our family again, going to church, severly limiting his activites, listening to me and helping out at home. I would not have thought it possible which is why, like you, I never pushed it....or I did but not to the point of being a dealbreaker. Maybe the line in the sand is what you need to do.

Good luck. I am appreciating your struggle.

Of course not. But she doesn't see it as being within her control. She thinks external things have put many things out of reach (not working, working, being a SAHM, my work, personal injury and illness).

All true, but everyone lives in the world. No one gets an equal start in life, or gets breaks, and some have really worse luck. The big negatives, like the economy, affect almost everyone. But you can't worry about what doesn't affect you or what you cannot control. Look at what you can do. Adjust your dreams. Go back to your core and start over. Let go of what is done and over, and the resentment and blaming yourself and others.

Really? I thought that is what is taught around here? I'm not trying to be sarcastic at all. OK, I see, saying that some people are perpetual renters being a DJ, and that my husband may be one of those people. I didn't say he definitely IS one of those people. But I think we can agree that there truly are people in the world who will simply not choose to change their belifs and mindset. I'm really not sure if m,y husband is one of those people, and frankly, it doesn't matter because that is his side of the street, right?


He and I have talked about the recreation time thig. We really can't seem to come up with much that suits us both. Following POJA, we do nothing until we come up with something we can both enthusiastically agree to. So that need for RC is not met, at least not adequately.

I like physical activites, like walkling, hiking, hanging out at the river or the beach, going to parks and historical places; I love going out for dinner. I love sightseeing. I also enjoy dancing, going to plays, shopping, and other stuff that I know my husband would not be into. Sometimes my husband likes doing those things as well. But if it was a choice between doing RC with me or gaming, he would choose gaming, hands down. He has said that it is unrealistic for me to expect him to want to trade gaming for other recreationl activities, or for him to like other recreational activites (with me?) more than gaming.

I think I could fill our schedule with all sorts of recreational activities that we both like, and he would become very resentful that there is no time left over for him to do his gaming activities. So at this point, I give him the choice.

I have started doing some of my recreation alone (like walks or going to the river), as well as doing some of these things with my parents who are here in town, and of course, with the children much of the time. In April I took the kids to the beach with a girlfriend who was visiting in town for a few weeks, and I had the most amazing time ever, like something in me just came alive!


I know what you are saying is true. I am not sure what else I can do today besides practicing the program the best I can today.

Thank you for the link to the article Mark.

I think we do a pretty good job (now) of being able to state to each other when there is a problem without causing too LB. And able to talk about our feelings. The real challenge that we have is solving the problem with brainstorming. He doesn't want to engage in brainstorming to come up with a solution, he wants me to accept that the problem cannot be solved, and if I want to leave, to go ahead and leave, but he's not going to make it easy for me.

At least, that's how it's gone down in the past.

Perhaps it is time to take another stab at it.

This IS the kind of gaming he does with his friends. Teh computer stuff is just at night. The tabletop and RPGs is what I have tried before.

He loves guns (his new hobby) and also likes paintball. I have absolutely no desire. I will go shooting with him sometimes, and have a good time, though. But it's not my favorite activity. I do it because he asks me to, and to spend time with him. It doesn't fill me.

Mark, you may be right about the recreational time being a vehicle for conversation. I think that is some of it.

But most of my recreational time is spent either alone, with my kids, or with my family of origin. I think my need for RC goes back to my relationship with my dad (LOL here I go, Freud!). He and I used to do a lot of RC together growing up, just hanging out, going to the mall, going to the dump, running to the sotre for an errand, going to Costco and getting those samples. I have such good memries of times with my dad, and with my parents together. We went on day trips all the time, travelled a lot as a family. I don't think my kids should miss out on that stuff, but I also do not want them to meet my EN. I know from personal experience how damaging that is.

Most of my Recreational time is spent alone, and I like it. I love photography, which is hard to do with someone watching yu and wanting to move along. I like to just go at my own pace at a historical sight, take in the experience.

Thank you for sharing. I don't think having an affair is the best way for me to get my husband to come on board, though Tempting . . . .

Actually, I am glad you shared that because I do have a hard time believing my husband would ever change. And yes, that IS a DJ. I guess I need to willingly suspend my disbelief. Kind of hard when he takes every opportunity to remind me, though. It feels more like living in denial.

I think I have come a long way toward doing the things you mentioned. A long way.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. Expecting to get my needs met ends in resentment. Asking them to be met is a far better approach. I can ask, but it is up to him to respond. And sometimes he does. I'm still here, aren't I?

I think if you talked to Steve Harley about your marriage he would ask you to talk to your DH about what your Goal for your Marriage is. I assume that your goal is for you to be in love with your husband and for your husband to be in love with you.
What is your DH's goal? Steve would also say for you to ask your DH that wouldn't it be ideal for your children's parents to be in love with each other? If he says yes, then you should make an appt. with Steve Harley. He would also say that right now your DH does not have the right priorities for his marriage to work. You are only getting more and more resentful. If your DH wants the marriage to work, he is going to have to change his priorities so that some of your needs get met too. You have to prioritze working on your marriage to make sure that he meets your needs too. Some of the other posters are saying that you need to try to do some of his RC, but honestly, he needs to try to do some of yours too.

My husband has read some of the stuff here at MB and while he agrees that it could work for some people, he is not willing to try it because he does not want to replace his IB with something we do together. He wants more hours in the day, so he can do it all

He does not want to follow MB. I've brought it up a few times in some non-threatening ways. I've read some of the site to him and asked, "What do you think about this?" instead of shoving it down his throat. He believes this stuff is unrealistic. And I can't say I blame him, given the fact that his dad was a serial cheater, his mom was married 3 times and in several other relationships . . . he doesn't know anyone except him who is "happily married."

Yes, that last was probably a DJ. But also very true. He doesn't want to go to bed at night because he doesn't want the day to end, feels that he hasn't done enough. I know that feeling all too well, myself. What I've realized is that if I prioritize and actually stick to it, I end up being able to accomplish more in my day, feel very satisfied, and STILL be able to get sleep!

Perhaps I could ask my husband what he believes the goal for marriage is. It would be an interesting conversation. We actually are able to have those now without killing each other

Thinkin,

Make no mistake, I wasn't recommending an affair. Just two points that I think are important.

Like you, I thought I was happy being "content". During my first converstion with OM I even referred to myself as "happily married."

The other thing is I always made the big DJ that he could never change and was proven at least partially wrong. We are still enduring some withdrawl on his part from his IB's but he seems willing to get through it.

Never say never to both instances.

Thanks Sunny, those are both good things to think about. I know you were not recommending an affair.

Do you think that only an affair could have gotten through to your husband? What else could you have done instead to get through to him and have the positive results you are working toward now?

I think I'd have the same question for Mark, too. What would it have taken short of an affair for your wife to communicate to you the dire straights your marriage was in? What would have motivated you back then to make the changes necessary?

I honestly believe the only thing that would possibly motivate my husband to change is losing me and having to actively win me back. Right now, he has my caring love, but not my feelings of romantic love, and he is apparently OK with that because he has stated that he is not willing to change in order for me to feel more in love with him.

GRRRR, just typing that is bringing me down.