Think,

But that assumes that meeting his ENs is less important than him meeting yours.

That is what I was trying to convey. SF is an emotional need...

JUST like Conversation.
JUST like Affection.
JUST like Financial Support.
JUST like Family Commitment.
JUST like Honesty and Openness.
JUST like Recreational Companionship.
JUST like Admiration.
JUST like Domestic Support.
JUST like Physical Attractiveness.

In the same way a Disrespectful Judgment (wrongly judging intent) is a Love Buster...

JUST like Angry Outbursts...
Or Independent Behavior.
Or Selfish Demands.
Or Annoying Habits.
Or Dishonesty.

Not meeting his needs of SF and Admiration FEEL the same way to him as not providing Family Commitment and Conversation FEEL to you.

The SOLUTION is POJA...

In SF.
In RC.
In Conversation.
In FC.
In FS.
In Physical Attractiveness.
In Affection.
In Honesty.
In DS.
In Admiration.

In ALL things related to the relationship.

Full ENTHUSIASTIC agreement.

Not rejection.
Not refusal.
Not demanding.
Not Independent Behavior.

When I began Plan A I started out knowing that one of my wife's top ENs was Conversation.

She didn't want to talk to me at all...
She was in Withdrawal.
She wanted to talk to OM.

I didn't want to talk to her much either...
I wanted choke her to death with my bare hands.
I wanted to scream at her.
I wanted to make her PAY for hurting me.

When my Taker tried to enter the conversation I stopped talking because even though I was hurting, if I made her hurt more then I was not going to have her be in love with me again and she was going to leave and run to OM. They never would have married. She never would have been happy with him. She would have lasted about a month with him every day and then would have been done with him because he was a serial cheater who drank himself into a stupor nearly every day. His wife was NOT going to divorce him because THAT would have made his life too easy.

NOTHING changed for WEEKS. I dropped about 20 pounds just from not eating (I started at just under 200 pounds at 6'4" tall). I slept about two hours per night for almost three months. I was ineffective at work. I was worthless to the church. I did NOTHING in the way of hobbies, past times or things I'd always enjoyed because NOTHING mattered any more.

I did not know if Plan A would save my marriage. I did not know if we would be divorced by the end of the year. I did not KNOW if I would lose everything I worked for my entire life or if I even had a place to live if we divorced.

I DID know that I had not been the husband she needed. I had NO (zero, zilch, zip, nada, none) control over anything she did or how she responded to what I did. I did have control over who and what I was, not for her, but for me. I stopped trying to fix our marriage and I fixed ME.

I discovered that we were both passive aggressive. I used guilt. She used withdrawal and silence.

What do we have in common?

My HOBBIES most of my life have been science, math, philosophy, reading (non-fiction), culture. I'm a photographer, but my world of photography revolved around the darkroom the technology, the hardware. I fish, but I study the behavior of bass, the feeding habits of bluegills, the bottom contours of lakes and the PH, clarity and salinity of the water in the local lakes.

She paints. She writes. Goes to look at houses we'll never be able to afford. She has a twin sister that calls before the sun comes up and again just before time for bed. When SIL stubs her toe, my wife limps.

I talked. I held her hand. I stopped my own AOs even when she was still doing her own IB thing as recently as within the past month. I met her ENs as much as she'd allow me to do it and I showed her the man that I could be. I became the man that she needed.

After a few MONTHS of me giving but never getting, not trying to take, keeping my Taker under house arrest, she began to see what I really was and who I really was. I supported her sister through marrying a guy who died 30 days later. I supported her twin through marrying a guy who was the first really nice guy she'd ever even dated two days after the funeral for the other sister's husband who had died after 30 days of marriage. And through it all I was there for my wife, meeting her ENs, avoiding my own love busting behaviors and supporting her through withdrawal symptoms that resulted from ending contact with OM, a guy she had fallen in love with because he talked to her and told her she was special.

She eventually began to meet MY ENs. Not all at once. Honesty and Openness was a struggle which for a BS jumps to number one on the list after D-day. She still struggles with IB but now I can tell her it is IB and she adjusts, makes arrangements to become compatible rather than pushing me away and doing whatever she wants without regard for my feelings.

We're NOT perfect. We aren't even close to perfect. We still both Love Bust sometimes. We both still have to ask for what we need sometimes. We still hurt each other sometimes. But now we are on the same team and working together to adjust, become compatible, meet each other's ENs, do away with annoying habits, stop the SDs, DJs and AOs that our Takers want to use. It has become easier over time because as MY Love Bank began to fill up, I wanted even more to make her happy and do things for her, to Give and to GET instead of giving and TAKING.

Marriage is NOT a 50/50 proposition. It is a 100/100 thing. I give 100% and she gives 100% or at least that is our goal. I want her to be happy and she wants me to be happy and neither of us has to wait to be happy in order to start trying.

But at first it was really and truly just me with no commitment, no promise, no input, no reciprocity from her side at all. She did not want to save the marriage. She wanted the marriage to end. She did not LOVE me, she HATED me. Her heart was not full of compassion, care, empathy but ANGER, HATRED, RESENTMENT and ENTITLEMENT. She wanted HER to be happy. She didn't care about me at all. OM was made her happy and all I made her was sick to her stomach. (Keep in mind that we had been married for almost 33 years at that point and our marriage was the standard that was shown to the community, the church, family and friends. OUR relationship was the reason her older and twin sisters were even trying again, #4 for both of them.)

When BOTH Love Banks are empty, when both spouses are in Withdrawal, when BOTH spouses are walking Independent Behavior machines, somebody has to go first. NEITHER going first means nothing changes. It means everything stays just like it is. It means the same thing goes on with no change at all. How's THAT been workin' for ya?

Not in one try. Changes have to be shown that they are likely to be permanent before any change in perception can be generated.

Not overnight. The marriage didn't get this bad in a day, a week or a month or even a year so it can't get all fixed in that time either.

Good enough usually becomes good enough. Fit for use eventually replaces desire for perfection. Forgiveness for the past can be granted in the near future instead of being banked to use as justification for future wrongs. Love becomes a feeling instead of just a verb...

Having a great marriage isn't finding the right person. It isn't creating the right person. It isn't getting the right person.

A great marriage comes form BEING the right person...

If I get time later I'll give you my biblical narrative explaining what I think marriage is supposed to be...The whole thing comes from the story of the first marriage in but a handful of verse in but one chapter of Genesis. (well, maybe a few other passages thrown in for reinforcement)

I can also give you my world view in a single paragraph and will add that as well...

Mark

What a fabulous post Mark.

I'm bookmarking it!

I know I'll need to read that over and over again.

I would really like to hear your world view, your view of marriage, etc. You make me think and challenge me better than most people in real life.


Ultimately I believe you are right about this.

The problem is that I have never loved my the man I'm married to enough to become the right person for him. I haven't even loved myself enough to become the right person for ME. And I barely love God enough to become the right person for HIM.

That last one I have the courage to do, because I know that God loves me even if I don't become the "right" person. He cares that I do my best even if it isn't THE best I could do if I were living up to my potential.

I believe I have it in me to love someone enough to give 100% even if they couldn't. I know I do because I've done it before, just not in a marriage relationship. Ultimately he ended the relationship because he knew he wasn't capable of giving me what he believed I deserved. It was a courageouse act of character. Wish I had had that kind of courage and character when my husband proposed. Because I knew.

Today I could make a different choice. But I don't want to because I know I am not ready. I'm not healthy and whole enough on my own terms. My husband doesn't want a divorce, so waiting isn't a risk for me in that way. He wants to cake eat. And maybe so do I. But right now, I have a lot to deal with in terms of taking care of myself, and that comes before our marriage. If that means that there's no marriage left when I am done taking care of my eating disorder and begin to find serenity as a regular part of my life, I am willing to live with that consequence. I am willing to take care of myself at the expense of my marriage. Not very MB, I suppose, but it's where I honestly am right now, and I am very at peace with it.

Maybe MB is not the place for me to be posting. After all, I guess I'm not really interested in saving my marriage as much as I am internested in making sure I don't leave any stone unturned. Maybe at the point that I am 100% committed, not just for "one day at a time", but for forever, then I should come back and give it another go. Maybe then I'll be ready to take drastic action.

Today, I take the action I can. I know it's halfmeasures. But it's better than no measures at all. Progress not perfection.

Maybe I need another break

Well, think, when I saw you had called ME out to read this thread, I felt humbled. Now I feel....wow J/K

So many of the feelings you voice sound like mine, although some of our EN's are different. I call myself- tongue in cheek - a freak of nature at times because I need MUCH SF...MUCH. And H doesn't. But I think the "rules" apply no matter what the EN. I think. I honestly confess that in those weak, stretched-out, sad moments I am not at all sure. And when I read a post like Mark's long one (which one?!?), and I think about doing exclusive "giving" for months with not a breath from the other side of the aisle, I shudder. Now aren't you glad you asked for my thoughts? ha!

Seriously, I am with you on a lot. I finally think I have the courage to renew and strengthen my real commitment to God, because I know HOW he loves. And I MUST work on me. I won't threadjack, but it became very clear to me recently that I cannot push that aside. For H....I want to. I have been trying to. I am not sure of the outcome. But I am going to...and I am not going to think about doing it for months. I am going to thinking about doing it for a moment. An hour. An evening. A day. And I guess that those would be my thoughts for you. Don't think about forever right now. Try to meet your H's EN's that you can for tonight. Then tomorrow. Then next week....Be O&H. If you slip up, shake your head, whisper a colorful word, and then forget it. These are the things I am doing. We can both see how they go.

You say that you never felt you loved your H enough to do the things you feel you need to do now. I will confess something on here for the first time....I know that feeling. I was engaged to someone else in college (no relationship overlap). I was head over heels for the entire time. I could barely keep from crossing "that line" that would make me no longer pure. I had never felt those things. I LOVED him with every cell. It didn't work for various reasons. I had known H for a long time. And yes, I did fall in love with him. I had strong feelings for him. He was not as "physically oriented," and I had other small concerns, but I really truly believed that once we were married and sex was "allowed" we would make up for lost time. Those other concerns would disappear. And we have had many great years...okay several, and many good. I do not and never have pined over ex-fiance or anyone else. I never really consciously compared. But yes, it is different. So I know what you mean.

I have hope (call me Pollyanna if you like) that we CAN have that passion, love, connection. I have to have hope. Because I know that outside our own excuses it is there. I think based on reading your thread that it is there for you too. The ingredients are there.

One of my additional long term goals now is for us to read each other's thread in three months, six months, this time next year, and be amazed at how great our marriages are, how hot we are for our H's, and how hot they are for us!!

When man and woman were first created by God, man (and woman) did not have a conscience because they didn't need one. The only rule was to walk with God and have relationship with Him. But Man (and woman) listened to the devil who deceived them into believing that it was being able to know the difference between right and wrong that made God who He was. So they bought the lie and chose to believe that they could be like that themselves and actually know and decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong. When they made that choice the relationship, the ability to walk with God Himself, was broken beyond repair for they were now destined to struggle to try to find their way on their own.

So God created the world. He made Man in His own image and He made the woman from out of the man to be a companion for the man but the man and woman chose to not follow God but their own choices for their own lives. The entirety of the remaining books and stories recorded in the bible is the implementation of God's plan for the world for the purpose of or restoring the relationship that was broken when the man and woman chose to run away from him and try to find their own way in life.

That is my entire world view in as few words as I can manage. So it was two paragraphs. Sue me...

Mark

Wow Mark thanks for sharing that, it makes a lot of sense.

God's plan was for the man to be like Him and part of that being like God was to be able to experience relationship with others. (vesre 18)

Nothing God had already made pleased the man enough for him to be satisfied with a relationship with that creature so God decided to make something special, just for the purpose of relationship and to be a helper, a partner and completer for the man. She came from Man so Man needs her in his life to be complete and to complete his calling before God. She came not from his head that she might rule over him, not from his foot that she might be dominated by him nor from his hands that she might have to serve him.

She came from his side that she might be his equal, his partner, his mate.(verses 19-21)

So now we see the first marriage...

Two things that are apparent to me from the rest of this passage are:

1) God brought the man and woman together.
2) The man recognized at once that this creature was a part of himself. She was in fact the fulfillment of all that he needed and all that he lacked in himself. She did after all come from him and in her he was complete.

Marriage was intended to be between one man and one woman brought together by God for the purpose of being partners and together fulfilling the will of God that neither could accomplish completely alone. Part of that purpose was to have relationship, with God and with each other.

Marriage requires separation from family and the starting of a new family together as husband and wife.

It requires that it be intended to be forever (it requires attachment and unity - KJV uses the words cleave unto. It implies a full attachment like when a branch is grafted onto a vine or a tree. The best of BOTH the branch and the vine are brought to the fruit. The hardiness of the root combines with the fruitfulness of the branch and together they produce what neither can produce of and unto themselves).

It means they are no longer individuals but are now part of something bigger created for a higher purpose than either one's goals, wants, needs or desires.

It is the combination of two whole(not broken or parts missing) individuals into one mysterious and remarkable entity.

They were naked before each other without shame. That is, they had nothing to hide and hid nothing. Nothing was withheld from each other. Complete and total honesty marked their union and neither felt any shame in being known to the other fully, completely, flaws and all. They were for each other and had nothing with which to compare and so become unsatisfied with what they had.

They had no reason for conscience since they were in relationship with each other and with God. They had no need for coverings to hide behind because they had innocence that came from being honest, open, up front and unashamed because neither had ever done anything to be ashamed of.

They had no need for boundaries or opinions because they lived in complete union with each other. They had no reason to protect themselves because neither had any hidden agenda that would harm them.

Everything either had, the other had as well. There was no need to save for they both had all they needed and their only purposes were to care for each other and to have relationship with God and each other.

They were alone, but for God, in the most beautiful place the world has ever known. They spent all of their time together for the man did not have to work and the children that had not yet come along were not a higher priority. Together they did everything, honestly, openly, for no ulterior motive and they did it all in God's presence.

That was what marriage was supposed to look like when God came up with the plan. The plan was perfect. The plan did not fail them, they failed the plan.

In the very next chapter we see that they each made choices that led to the violation of God's one rule for them. The woman was deceived by one of the most beautiful things God had ever made who had already violated that rule and had already broken his own relationship with God. The man, of his own free will chose to eat the same poisoned fruit, the choice between right and wrong, the entitlement and self justification that led to death. Death came spiritually at once. Death physically came later but just as certainly.

And God came up with another plan. When the man and woman hid because they were now ashamed, when they now needed to be covered because they could no longer be open and honest and innocent, God's plan was to clothe them. He made clothing from animal skins. Animals died to cover the sinfulness of the man and woman. A substitute had to die in order for the man and woman to live.

Thus God's plan of subsitutionary sacrifice culminating in a chosen people, demonstrating God's way of living to the world yet still refusing to do things God's way. And from that people came a new Man who while being fully Man was also fully God so that God Himself could provide the substitute so that man could once again walk with God and with his wife unashamed, naked, with nothing hidden and yet still loved.

Now you have an idea where I am coming from when I talk about marriage.

At least a peak...

Mark

Thanks everyone, especially Lurioosi. Called you over here because I know you have a different perspective. Actually, I also have SF as a top need, but not SF in the physical sense. I want the whole package or nothing. Black and white thinking. I gotta get beyond that, and "action" isn't really working because I've been trying to do the feelings follow actions thing with SF since getting married, even on our wedding night, and it hasn't happened in 9 years. Granted, most of that has been without the perspective and language of MB. But I had always been a very sexual person in my teens and 20s, even before actually having intercourse. I was crushed when I was finally married and it was finally "OK" and I ended up having so much pain that first year, when it had never been a problem before.

I went to a meeting tonight, topic Martyrdom. How perfect

What I realize is that for now, even if I do the bare minimum in our marriage, just preventing my own LB, I am making an improvement. The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. I can take it one step at a time. I can go at my own pace. Even if I do nothing else with MB except take care of me by being honest and having boundaries, I will be improving our relationship. Improvement may look like a healthy marriage, and improvement may look like something else. Only God knows.

Mark, I really appreciate you sharing your theology of life. I need to let it sink in, because it's not the kind of thing one can simply respond to off the cuff. It deserves more. But it seems to mesh very well with my 12-step program, the crux of which is to turn my will and my life over to a power greater than myself, and to pray only for knowledge of his will and the power to carry it out, not forever, but just for today. That's all I need to do.

It's interesting because in my Catholic faith we celebrate the Easter Vigil on Saturday evening before Easter Sunday, which is when we baptize new members of the church who have been preparing for about a year. The service is several hours long, and starts with the reading about creation, then adam and eve, then a reading from exodus, then something from the epistles, and finally the gospel, the resurrection. (My church does those readings, others do the full set, which is even longer.) It is exactly what you describe . . . the story of sin, the story of covenant, the story of fulfillment. It is my favorite service of the year.

One quick thing to add before I go to bed. What strikes me most about the adam and eve story (aside form everything that you shared so beautifully Mark) is that when God caught them with their hands in the cookie jar, Adam's first reaction was blame. And not just blame of the woman. Not, he blamed GOD!


It's one of those things about the story that is often missed.

Sort of how folks miss the whole point when someone tells them..."You can only control yourself."

"I would be better at ___, if he would only do ___."

I know I've heard that before...

"I isn't MY fault he took it the wrong way."

I wonder where I saw that before...

"If you would just ___, then I would ___."

Where was that thread?

Help me out here, Think...

Mark

Points taken, Mark.

This morning I woke up thinking "I'll be a buyer if he becomes a buyer." That's basing my actions on something I can't control. Either I'll be a Buyer, or a Renter, and I get to live with the consequences either way.

I need to act "as if" I'm a Buyer, even though I'm not. I need to do it for me, to know that I can.

You need to become a buyer...

Buyers act like buyers because they are buyers. Renters act like renters because they are only temporary residents.

It's a different way of thinking rather than just a different way of acting. The actions come from how we think and so what is real on the inside is what comes out.

The bible talks about this idea in so many ways. The word repent for example means literally, "to think again." Jesus talks about how it isn't what a man puts into his mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of it. Joshua and all of Israel are told to dwell on the things of God day and night, teach them to their children, remember and think about them when coming an going etc...The New Testament talks about the renewing of our minds. Christians are told that we are a new creation.

We simply cannot choose how we feel. We can PRETEND to feel a different way but that does NOT lead to changed feelings. When we talk about faking it till you make it we aren't talking about pretending to feel differently. We are talking about acting as if we did feel that way because the action is the right thing to do in order to gain the feeling. But in order to accomplish that doesn't just require a change in actions. It requires that we start to think about doing the right things instead of the old flawed thought process we used to dwell on.

If I think about doing something to show care for my wife and then let that lead me down the road of negative thoughts I can end up with something that has no value to either of us. This morning I fixed breakfast for her. As I was cutting up the potatoes I thought briefly about the days within the first week after D-day when I would cook for her. I was reminded of this in part because I have shared a bunch of that period in recent days both here and with IRL folks I am trying to help. But rather than continue thinking about how I lost 20 pounds in three weeks by only eating when she was around and I was cooking for her, I realized that my cooking for her at that time was in fact one of the things I did that brought her back to the marriage. Now I cook for her because she likes it when I do. I do it because it shows her that I love her. She feels love when I make breakfast (not talking about donuts and coffee here gang...)

When I was cooking breakfast for her three weeks after I had confronted her, I wasn't thinking about how cooking for her would bring her back to me. What I was thinking was that if I was going to show her what the marriage really was, as opposed to the fantasy of the affair which was hardly real in any way, then cooking was a part of achieving my goal.

In business we talk about a company having a vision. From that vision flows the mission. Often people confuse the two, but they are really quite separate and different things.

If my vision is a restored, healthy, happy, fulfilling marriage with my wife, then the things I do must all work toward the accomplishment of that goal. So my vision is what sets the goal, establishes the definition of what my treasure, yet unrealized and even unseen, will be and look like when I get there. For my wife to be on board with this and for me to be able to get there I need to show her the treasure so that she knows what it will look like and give her sufficient reason to try to get it with me.

My MISSION is what I will do in order to gain my prize. If my vision says WHY I am doing it, my MISSION says HOW I am going to get there. So from my mission flows every action that I do as long as I am focused on the vision and not on the challenges I encounter along the way.

Example for you... The marriage ministry I am trying to build at our church, not solely as a branch or arm of our church nor just for our own congregation or even really just for Christians has a vision, a mission, a purpose and specific goals that flow from why I am bothering with any of this at all.

My Vision Statement reads: That is WHY I do what I do. It flows from the vision and mission of our church.

My Mission Statement: That is how I plan to accomplish my goal as set forth in my vision.

My purpose, which is what sets the pace and defines how I plan to go about accomplishing my mission says: This is what I am going to do to achieve my mission. It is the process and my plan.

I then set a goal for my Wednesday night MB class: So deciding that I was teaching MB to a bunch of people wasn't the treasure but merely the means.

Dr Harley's stated vision is This website, his books, his research, his counseling service, his radio program...everything he does is designed to accomplish the reason he even bothers.

So when we begin to try to change our marriage we must first of all change our focus. Our goals are set too short. We become too myopic. We seek to FIX our spouse. We want to FEEL the feelings. We want to CHANGE the dynamic.

But those are all just way points. They aren't the goal and when we can't perfectly execute these little steps we wander back and forth across the path, heading down rabbit trails, losing site of the really important things and losing hope because we took a shot and missed.

But if our prize becomes not all of this minutia but the marriage of our dreams, then everything we do must point to, focus on and lead to that end point.

This is where our thinking must change in order for us to get where we want to go. We get sidetracked by the issues, the challenges, the failures that occur daily. In focusing on what is wrong we lose sight of what or prize really is. If we can think about the prize instead of the process, then we can design the process to accomplish the prize.

Dr Harley realized early in his research that this was why traditional marriage counseling was failing. The process focused on what made marriages fail rather than on what made them work. By making conflict resolution the goal, couples end up doing nothing but having conflict. When communication becomes the goal couples can easily communicate why they are unhappy and why they want a divorce. Only MB focuses on making being in love with each other the solution to failing marriages. So all of his methods lead to, point toward and strive to accomplish that one single goal, helping a couple to fall in love and stay inn love.

So when I set as my end point as having a happy marriage, then it changes the way I do things because if what I am doing does not result in a happy marriage then I must change what I am doing, not as the product but as the process.

How do you carve a statue of an elephant? Your start with a block of stone and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant...

How do you create a MB marriage?

You start with the resources at hand and chip away everything that doesn't look like a MB marriage...You DO it to be in love with each other.

Focus on the prize and not the process. Change what you think about since where your mind goes is where you'll end up. When failures happen in the process, refocus on the prize so that you remember the REASON you are trying at all. Look at your kids and picture them when they are your age. What vision of marriage do you want them to have. When you think of watching your granddaughter walk down the aisle at the church to begin spending her life with the man she loves, what example of marriage do you want her to remember?

Build that marriage now, one piece at a time, one step at a time, one change at a time. Make THAT marriage your treasure and only do what will result in that end.

Chip away everything that doesn't look like you want her marriage to be...

Mark

I know this is slightly O/T, but in the hospital a couple of weeks ago, one of the group therapists referred to the 12 step program a lot. That was because it can be well-applied to MI too, not just addiction. Is there a really good place on the web or a really good book where I could learn more about this? Since I am not an addict, I wouldn't feel right actually going to AA - I'd feel like I was barging in in a way. But I would like to know more about it.

Mark, I want you to know I appreciate your expanded post about Adam and Eve and the spiritual side of all this. Why is it that we are often timid about mentioning the spiritual aspect? I really believe, the more I think about it, that my growing "lukewarmness" spiritually has hugely impacted my marriage overall.

Luri,



Look at the logo from this website for minute.

On the left side is a sort of triangle made up of three arrows. The two white ones indicate the two people in a marriage. The red central one is the marriage itself. At the top of the triangle is God.

As the two get closer to the top, they get naturally closer together. As the two become more a part of the one they get to be closer to each other. As the one gets closer to God the two become less distinct and more integrated into the one rather than remaining two.

Now I have NO idea if this was all what Dr H intended to signify. They are my observations having seen the explanation of marriage being like this based on the very same drawing many years ago.

A more secular concept could be that the two get closer to each other as they each get closer to the goal of a better marriage. Maybe that was his intended purpose.

But having heard the analogy used for many years with an almost identical drawing, I would guess he knew the same explanation when he used it.

I might be WAY off base here, but it still applies...

Mark

luri, here you go:

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm

And the 12/12 book is available online here:

http://www.aa.org/1212/

Luri, I would check out alanon. It's a 12 step program for anyone who has been affected by the disease of alcoholism. I went into the program believing there were no alcoholics in my immediate family, only folks in my husband's family and my distant family. Turns out it is a family disease and can affect generations who don't even have active drinkers (and also, as it turns out, there WERE active drinkers in my life, we were all in denial).

Anyway, as a support group it is probably going to be far more "comfortable" for you than AA. I would suggest trying 6 meetings (either 6 of the same or 6 different). I think sponsorship and reading literature is key, as well as actually working the steps. Many people just go to meetings to feel better, but don't do the work to get better.

I can't say enough about it. It has changed my life and enabled me to be here and to actually listen to what I am being told isntead of running to the hills . . .

Mark, your response is coming soon. Actually, not a response, 'cause I got nothing but gratitude. But an update.

OK, a question (aimed at Mark because he brought it up, but open to all):

Can't change my feelings, and changing actions is not enough to become a buyer. So I must change my thinking. How do I do that?

I'm really not trying to be a smarta$$. It is a very serious question. Because to me, that's like asking a conservative to think like a progressive, or vice versa. Each of their totally opposite agendas and actions make logical sense if viewed through the lens of their thinking. Neither side is willingly going to surrender their thinking just to be "in line" with the goal of the other side, right?

You do it by focusing on the vision. Keep achieving the goal in mind at all times.

Before doing anything you ask yourself, "Does this get me closer to what I want? Does it support my vision for the future?" If the answer is "No" then you don't go down that road.

After a while it becomes a habit and you begin to see what needs to be done in order to accomplish what you set out to do. Your thinking changes because you begin to think about what you do BEFORE you do it.

You stop inputting stuff that tells you that you need to be happy no matter what the cost. You quit listening to things that tell you that love is magic. You give up the things that have told you all your adult life that men are only trying to control you for their own benefit.

You start thinking about what your H's ENs might be. You start considering how you can meet those needs. You look at ways that you can maximize deposits into his Love Bank and minimize withdrawals.

You don't tell yourself "I'll sacrifice for a while and if I don't feel any different in a few weeks I'll go find happiness." You tell yourself "WE need to make this work so that WE can both be happy being married to each other."

You follow POJA because POJA will get you what you want and will also get you what you need. You follow PORH because it will let you express exactly how you feel when he does something that hurts you instead of stuffing it down to save for later when you need a justification to return the hurt. You work out a way to spend time with him so that not only can you meet his ENs but he can meet yours as well. You give care, time, protection and honesty and get all the same in return. You stop having to take because you are already getting.

Not overnight.
Not in a week.
Not in a month.
Maybe not even in a year...

NOT saying give without getting in return. Give and see what comes back. But make the giving focused. Do what will make his Giver come out instead of challenging his Taker to a duel of selfishness.

You change your thinking by choosing to think about things in a different way.

When he does something to annoy you instead of lowering the boom, you make a thoughtful request rather than a selfish demand. You meet his ENs b4ecause they are things that he needs instead of explaining how your ENs aren't being met.

You decide that you want a marriage that will be fulfilling, happy, dynamic, growing and wonderful. Stop doing things that do NOT result in what you want. THAT is the chnage in thinking that must happen. If it does not promote my goal, I will not engage in it.

NOT based on how I feel today but on what I know will get what I want in the long run.

Any help?

Mark