Think, I have no idea why you say you have nothing to show from it. You have made amazing progress and have been inspiring many of us for months.

Don't go!!!

The Love Bank model is still valid and still holds the key to turning your situation around.

There are plenty of people here who will hand you some piece of information that will help you excuse yourself as you have an AO. I know; I've done it.

Don't listen to those. Look at the model. It works. You've seen that at times, right?

Thank you so much LA. You have no idea what those words mean to me right now. And others too. You are indeed precious companions on my journey and I cherish you.

I HAVE seen that I have made tremendous progress. It was a bad weekend, following a week of having almost no one on one time with my husband. I am unlearning years of attitudes and reactions. It took me 34 years to get this way, and it's going to take plenty of time to "unget" this way. I'm not a "weirdo" (and neither is my husband) just human and we do have a deep capacity to love as well as deep capacity to hurt. Just as we all do. And we all do.

I need to stop feeding the hurt, and putting someone on "ignore" is not the way for me to do it, because that's not the problem. What you think of me is none of my business anyway.

LA often talks about our LBs being a knife that stabs myself, not just the other person. And when I came here, it was to share my story, not get unsolicited (or even solicited) advice. I didn't hold myself to that code though. And it's very addictive, telling your story, and it can become incredibly self-centered. My "journaling" here may have ripple effects, and for that I am grateful. But it has been at the expense of my own peice of mind. I am far too tempted to get caught up in complaining about my husband, and as a result I rob my own love bank without him ever doing or saying a word. And that is not good for me or my marriage. And that is why I need to go on a break for a while.

Additionally, journaling is often a distraction from actually LIVING, from making mistakes and actually learning compassion. I think we can all see how that has played out in my own life, and in others' lives. I've spent hours "journaling" here, sharing with you all, opening my heart and life. And by doing that I have wasted valuable time living and failing and learning compassion, and instead have gotten caught up in self-righteousness. There is none so blind as she who will not see, and I choose to see how I am harming myself, and I choose to stop.

I am so grateful for the lessons I have learned here. I do believe the program works if followed. And the healthier you are, the better it will work. And I know that I need to work on my own personal health (mental and physical) before I am capable of doing MB. Doesn't mean I'm going to put the tools away and act as if they don't work. Just means that I'm going to give MYSELF that space and grace Mark1952 talks about so beautifully. Because I'll never be able to give it to my husband until I learn to give it to myself. I need to give myself permission to make mistakes, and I really do not need to put my mistakes under the microscope of uncompassionate eyes. I have people in real life who are willing to 2x4 me, call me on my stuff, and keep me honest with myself, without abusing me, with unconditional love.

I've also learned a lot about affairs. And how vulnerable I am. And how I need to be cautious and implement extraordinary precautions. Several of you have warned me about this either overtly or simply by example, and I think that is a tremendous gift. Because I think I would have continued in my belief that "it could never happen to me." And being so involved in church and alanon puts me at a special risk of bonding without knowing it's happening. Thank you for that awareness.


No one else here CAN see it. You don't know me in real life. And this isn't real. We think because this is an anonymous forum that we are safe, but it is the anonymity that often brings out our most abusive, toxic selves. And that's not who we really are. And when we act that way in a forum, we are unconsciously creating that reality in real life. That is how my AO yesterday happened. To many "I am . . . [insert negative self-image here]" that actually came true. It's true about what we say about ourselves, and it's also true in our actions and words to others. I try to keep my words to other here honest and compassionate. That's my code. Trying to live it. Making mistakes. Letting go. Learning. Growing. Changing each day.

I'll be around. Just not so visibly. If you have a question, feel free to ask. I'll answer if I can.

Think

P.S. Chris, ML is shorthand for Melody Lane. And you are following in her footsteps. And I mean that as a compliment

thinkin, I understand how you feel. I want to share that when I have low times, it helps me to go back and reread the words that have given me strength in the past. You are making new choices today. You recognized that the blaming and AO don't fit for you anymore. That step 1, awareness. Exactly what you were trying to work on. There will be easier days, too, and I encourage you to share them, what's working for you, so you can reread it when the days are harder, inspire yourself again

LOL! LOL!

Think,

I am so glad you came back to say something. I was so worried.

That was a really inspiring post. I understand why you feel you need to take a break. It's easy to get caught up in complaining when you've found a "safe" place to do that. We each have to know what environments are good for us and those which tempt us to remain stuck or get worse. I get it. At first I did come here to complain about my H and get justification for divorcing him especialy since he said he wanted to divorce me...but coming here actually helped me to safely work through some issues & it brought other issues to my attention which I have worked on. After a time I became focused on improving "me", learning, learning even more, and getting results.

Things don't work the same for everyone & we have to do what works best for us & our situation.

My thoughts are with you, Think!

I understand how being here and talking about personal experiences and emotions cam make you feel like your whining and feeling sorry for yourself Think.

For years I just sucked it up when certain issues bothered me about my relationship with my late wife. I felt that if I talked about them I gave them a place of reality they didn't deserve and it was up to me to change everything or shut up and suffer being happy with what I have.

I believe that God has given me everything I need to be not only safe and productive in life, but prosperous and even happy. Some of what I need for that will come from asking myself questions and challenging my own concepts. That is why i came here. To figure out how I could have gotten so close and what I did or didn't do right in my past marriage. I came for myself.

Your beimg here is a sign of strength not of weakness to me. I hope you stick around and "Think -it-thru" as that is the only thing any of us can do. I will be around "Sorting" through my own mind what was Gods truth and what are lies.

We should never be ashamed of needing the help of others like the angels here in these pages.

See-ya-soon

Hey, I just wanted to make a quick update. I've been posting on a few people's threads but not really sharing what's been going on in my life.

I suppose some of my efforts at implementing MB on my side of the street have seen positive results. My husband said last weekend that he is "in love" with me. He also acknowleged that he knows that I'm not "in love" with him. He stopped short of saying that he would do anything for me to be in love with him; rather, he has accepted the reality that I'm not in love with him and is simply appreciative of the things I am doing and how I have changed.

I'm very grateful to Sooly for her Flylady post way back last month. I started using Flylady to meet my OWN need for a pleasant home environment, and it has made a huge difference for our entire family, especially me.

We're having regular sexual experiences. I struggle to use the word "fulfillment" because it is not the same thing as having a sexual life with someone with whom I am in love. But I am meeting that need willingly and regularly, without sacrifice or resentment. Sometimes with a tinge of sadness though.

I'e made a huge effort in the area of DJs. I have asked my husband to help with this, because I truly can't see it most of the time. So I've asked him to point out when I'm getting judgemental or superior in our conversations. Luckily we both have a sense of humor about this defect of mine, and he's able to point it out jokingly and I'm able to receive it without taking it personally. This also has made me realize that although conversation is one of my top needs, it is a blessing in disguise that conversation is sparse, because it would rob his love bank far faster than it would fill mine up.

UA time is not ideal. We generally have on average about 2 hours each day. But some of that is TV time. Given that we've never spent much UA time together even in our dating days, this is actually an improvement. The big difference is that I'm making myself available. Sometimes he joins me, sometimes not. Same with FC time. A good example is this weekend. He made plans to spend Sunday gaming with his buddies across the street, which I didn't mind. Well, as it turned out, there was a church picnic on Sunday afternoon. I went alone with the kids and had a great time without him. Someone else might have wanted to re-POJA the Sunday plans, but I knew it would actually cause more love bank withdrawls for him to change his plans that for me to go to the picnic alone.

Despite his saying he feels more "in love" I see our lives becoming increasingly more separate. After a month of really working this, I feel very good about what I am doing, and I'm not sure if now is the time to start making the complaints known, or if it is best just to accept him as he is. I think practicing my own MB tools right now is best, because I feel that any little thing could send him right back into the conflict or even withdrawl stage. (I know, that's a justification! Sue me, it's where I am right now!

OK, so that's me in a nutshell right now!

That is a great update, TTT. I just read through your post. I feel like I want to give you a big hug!

I understand 100% of what you said about this place can make it worse. I felt that way and actually took a break for damn near a year. I usually come here out of desperation because I feel like I have tried and tried and tried and we were getting nowhere. I get panicked and stuck in "fix it" mode to the point I am lost. Reading other's stories and not posting my own stuff, sometimes, is the best medicine.

I am glad you are seeing improvement.

I've definitely found that posting on other people's threads about my understanding of MB principles has been incredibly helpful. I think giving and seeking advice are both very dangerous because most often we know inside what the answer is and are just looking for validation, and if I'm looking for validation it means I'm not ready to take the step that is before me. I've found it's better for me to pray that God make me ready to take the step I know in my heart must be taken.

As it is, I'm not really ready to take ANY steps right now. I'm OK with that though, because in the mean time I do have a life that is getting better every day, regardless of my husband's actions and reactions. I'm having a much clearer picture of my side of the street anyway.

Think,

So the next time he mentions that he feels "in love with you" might that be the moment to bring up MB and maybe suggest the book FILSIL?

When I first began trying to introduce MB practices into our marriage, my wife had just about zero interest. She had bought a bunch of books and stuff over the years but for some reason she had never really read them and had let her resentment build up to the point where she felt justified to have an affair. When I got FILSIL and read it, I left it in plain sight and a few times asked her to read it with me. She started but did not complete the book until we agreed to teach the stuff at church last fall.

She read the book, then read it again as we did the class and then reread it again when we repeated the class and was able to show a couple in our class some stuff in the book without my prompting. In a couple of weeks we are going to a weekend training (22 hours over 3 days with homework over lunch and at night ) to lead a marriage ministry based on Dr Harley's materials, so in spite of her reluctance to get involved, she is now pretty good at following MB methods in our own marriage and is going to actively participate in learning more so that we can help other couples.

Now I'm not saying that when he says that he loves you to reply that you are not in love with him, but it might be a way to open the discussion by telling him where you found the things that have helped you begin to meet his needs and ask if he would be willing to help you get even better at doing it.

In other words, tell him "This is where I got what has made me want to make our marriage better. Would you be interested in maybe working with me to see if we can make it great?" ... Or words to that effect...

But one more thing to consider in this is that your marriage didn't get to the place it was when you first found MB in a few months or a year or even two. Once he really reaches a state of Intimacy for a sustained period, it will be more likely that he will be more willing to begin meeting your ENs as well. As he begins wanting to meet your needs and you learn how to express what you need without SDs, DJs or AOs and without resorting to IB in order to get your way, in other words, PoRH becomes something that rules your marriage along with PoJA and PoUA, you will be more able to articulate what you need so that he can better accept and understand it and he will be able to respond from a place of wanting to do for you what you have done for him.

At least that's the way it is supposed to work, but after years of doing things that build resentment and separate lifestyles, it takes a long time to create new habits that make consideration for each other a way of life rather than being something that has to be forced.

Mark

TT66,
You can't clean up your side of the street without walking it. You have to take steps and do things that demonstrate improvement, because improvement cannot just be in your mind and your feelings about yourself, contrary to the secular messages we receive today.

Resentment is something you have to let go of, or it will rule you.
At some point, you will have to give up resentment in order to improve your relationship past a sticking point. Why not start doing it now?

Marriage was made for people living around each other, on farms and in villages. Modern couples live such compartmentalized lives, either working different jobs, or one staying at home while the other works extraordinary hours, that they have to act independently. Without being conscious of that, it is so easy to start engaging in Independent Behavior which is selfish, rather than just making an independent decision at the moment for the marriage and family.

Emotional Honesty is a place you have to begin. You have to be honest with yourself about what you want, and learn how to state it in a way that is honest but without assigning fault.

My wife has put up a lot of resistance to MB, probably because I introduced it improperly. HNHN and other books are so much about affairs and other problems that I can see now how they are not the best introduction to MB for some people. When I first came here, I did not understand the need for a book on "Love Busters" and "FILSIL", but now I do. I have only skimmed FILSIL because I have given every copy I buy away to young couple immediately. It is a very positive, non-threatening introduction to Marriage Builders.

Mark & Retread,

I have shared the MB website and actually read the concepts to my husband (he is not a reader). He can see how it would work, but does not want to give up his IB in order to have a MB marriage and has stated that pretty plainly. The reason he married me is because I tolerated his IB and other girls wouldn't. He believes our marriage is "good" when I don't ask him to stop his IB. He believes our marriage is "bad" when I ask him to stop his IB or at least make everything else in our lives come before his IB. He says he is "in love" as long as I don't ask him to change. He believes that he provides for our wonderful home, allows me to be a stay at home mom, lets me do any outside activities I want, all in exchange for him to be a married gamer. As long as I accept that, he is happy and content. If I do not accept it, then he is miserable because we are in the conflict state.

I have found that for my sanity, I am happier if I accept that I cannot change him. I dislike making repeated requests for change because it feels like nagging, and because of how he reacts. But I can do the actions of Care, Protection, Honesty, Time, and achieve unity through the POJA, regardless of what is going on with him. I'm not doing it to achieve a specific outcome. I'm doing that because it is what I am supposed to do, and also because doing it actually makes me happier with myself.

It's when I worry about the outcome that I get crazy and resentful. I'm not resentful of him personally. This is just who he is, and who he chooses to be.

Again, I am relating here to this. H is not a gamer, but the longer we are together, the more IBs he has. The more he wants to get out, see his friends. He sees it the same, as well. He works hard to provide for us with a nice house and the ability for me to stay home, his job is demanding and he needs his outlet. Nothing seems to make him happier at times, than to just head to his buddy's house (about an hour away), BBQ, drink beer and sit in his damn garage and talk shop. When he does this, I do not contact him, as it is his time "away" from everything. Now, when I leave to see friends out of town (which I do about 2x year, his used to be 2x a month, but now nore like every 6 weeks), he texts me nonstop, calls me. If I do not reply to his calls or texts, then I get more texts 'where are you, why arent you answering" and by the time I call him back, he is pissed off. Well, I am trying to have MY time away, I give YOU your time, why am I not allowed MY time? He is not calling for anything specific. He cannot stand it when I take any time for me, which is one reason I do it so rarely. Why go visit friends when I spend have of it answering calls and texts.

Drives me bonkers. He gets his IBs when he needs it (he does cancel if we are in a bad space, then blames ME for not being "able" to go), I have to plan mine out far in advance and then I never really get to enjoy that time because he is bugging me.

I have a house and food on the table. What more could I possibly need (insert eye roll here).

Thanks for sharing . . . I'm very lucky that when I want to "go out" my husband usually rolls out the red carpet for me! I also do not use a cell phone except for emergencies, and I don't text. But even if I did he would not do that to me. Aside from the first month or two of dating, he wouldn't email me while at work and rarely called me during the day while he was working. Same with me.

I will say that I think it needs more time, for both of us. I wonder if my husband ever really was in love with me, or if he was just in love with the idea of being with me. I'm moderately attractive, apparently good in bed, and was accepting of his hobbies. We generally agreed on children, money and politics. He has said that the reason he asked me to marry him was because it "seemed like the next thing to do." I said yes because I wanted to be married, and because I thought God wanted me to marry him in order to bring them closer (how ridiculous and self-important that now sounds!) even though I had a lot of reservations and almost backed out.

Being dissatisfied is what brought me here. Seeing the value of MB in meeting my side of the vows is what keeps me here.

Gdar,

In my experience its easier to be the leaver than the leavee, if you know what I mean. When your dh is at his friend's house he is thinking about what his friend is talking about. When he is at your house and you aren't there, he is thinking about the fact that you aren't there.

Can you discuss (I know you don't poja) what will happen the next time you take a trip away to visit family/friends. I.e. that you will call once a day and that you are leaving your cell phone at home?

This is something I just don't understand, but I see it in my marriage and in almost every other poster here on MB:

One spouse has some things that they just do not want to change.
They are told, honestly and politely, that they are making their mate unhappy, but they refuse to change. For some it is small things that are irritating drains on the Love Bank, while others are major things that could likely end their marriage.

Some have totally changed from what they were when they got married, but seem to think their spouse should accept that.

Others have never changed, never grown, never grown up - and they think their spouses are unreasonable to have grown up.

Think,

I have a couple of questions, and please understand that if I don't reply to your answers right away it isn't that I don't care or that I am ignoring you. My time on this forum has been seriously curtailed in recent weeks with o sign of letting up. I try to read here often, but posting is something that I need to devote some time to most of the time and work is sort of preventing that from happening right now (and the fact that we are striving to increase our UA time AND the NFP is taking up more time AND church has got some stuff going that one or both get into and,...

Anyway...

My questions:

Define "love" for me. You say that you are not sure your husband was ever in love with you. So what is "love?"

Do you think that passion can be created by following MB?

OK, a third one...

What would you be willing to do to hav4e a marriage that was full of passion for both of you?

Mark

For most men, Recreational Companionship is a BIG deal. It is typically one of his top three ENs and more importantly is one of the Intimate Emotional Needs.

Often when a couple is dating the woman will get involved at least marginally with the activities the man enjoys. She might go to his softball game and cheer him and his team on, then go to the bar afterward to celebrate. Sometimes it was actually the celebration after the game that brought the couple together or some other peripherally involved activity related to one of his big recreational activities. A woman will go to great lengths at times just to be where her man is.

And then comes the marriage and then kids and then usually working at different jobs most often at different times and before long each of them has their own recreational activities.

And when the kids begin to play soccer and go to dance classes time together falls away until the only recreational time a man gets is when he is with his friends. And his wife agrees to it by taking her own time by herself (really with her friends as well) and soon the only thing they have in common is the house, bills and children.

Want a man who can't wait to be with you? Spend time with him doing something he loves for a while. Want his favorite recreational partner to be you? Do something with him that is fun for him. (Hint: It isn't talking about deep emotional issues)

Why do you suppose the stereotype exists on both sides of the aisle? Men want to hang out with their friends and do "dumb stuff" like hunt, and fish and play games and hit a stupid white ball, chase the thing down and hit it again. (At least they could have somebody else hit it back...But then it would be tennis and that can be pretty boring too) So guys go kill something, throw it on the fire, drink beer, swap stories and relive the glory days. Eventually they start to watch the game and then the cheerleaders come on the screen and off they go to Hooters to watch the second half and the wives wonder what has gotten into them and why aren't they more willing to stay home and spend time with us...

Women of course don't pursue all that stuff. Women are perfectly willing to sit around the table in the kitchen with friends and talk for hours about family and friends and old school chums long forgotten and that cute guy in the 6th grade that every girl in the school wanted to sit next to on the bus and that decided to become a priest in the RCC...

Women have as their top IENs, Conversation and Affection...Not 100% of the time, but close enough for a general rule to say it is probably true can be defended.

Men don't care if they ever talk about stuff. Talking for men is about giving and gathering information. When hunting or fishing, we communicate with our hands, eyes, facial expressions and body language. We don't talk about fishing, we try to catch fish. For men the life comes from the activity, just like it does for women, just that the activity isn't talking and having deep conversations about stuff.

And the affection women typically want is spelled by men...S.E.X. That about sums it up, ladies.

Want your man to want to be with you more? Spend time with HIM instead of trying to make him one of your girlfriends...or instead of getting your own Conversation and Affection and O&H needs met by your friends, even if they are other women.

Intimacy comes from the IENs. Meeting the IENs creates intimacy and intimacy is born out through the sharing of the IENs.

RC and SF are the things for men that Conversation and Affection typically are for women. Time alone is NOT one of our emotional needs..People go crazy in solitary confinement. A form of torture is to remove all contact with other human beings. People crave human contact even when that contact is with people who are inflicting harm on them mentally, emotionally and physically.

Man was made for relationship. Woman was made so that Man could have relationship. Time alone is NOT what man gets from hanging out with his friends any more than it is what a woman gets. BOTH men and women are having a primary IEN met by the friends. THIS is why we shouldn't have intimate friendships with the opposite sex.

For men the top IENs are RC and SF. For women they are Conversation and Affection...not incompatible, merely different. When dating we usually did things that met these needs in some way for each other. Why did we quit doing that and how on Earth did we get this idea that we need to be alone?

Alone in a room full of drunken crazy people is not alone. Alone in a room full of people working out at the gym is not alone.

More importantly to keeping a marriage alive and well, why allow others to meet our ENs for us after we get married? And why encourage our spouse to get his or her needs met by others as well.

A woman decides she wants to look better, She diets and starts going to the gym. At the gym are both men and women. The women talk and she has no problem, but then the man begins to talk to her and she starts to look forward to seeing him at the gym. Next he compliments her on the weight she has lost (probably 40 minutes after her husband has had an AO over the laundry not being done or some such) and now she REALLY enjoys talking to him and after the workout they go get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's and...

She is meeting his IEN of RC and, if she is attractive, now trying to be more attractive and even trying to be more attractive for him, SF gets involved as well. And She is having her IEN of Conversation met, and O&H get met and he holds the door for her and carries her gym bag and touches her hand when he hands her her coffee (all affection)and...
Does anyone really wonder how an affair can happen under this set of circumstances?

We don't NEED to be alone. We need to get our ENs met and if our IENs are met by one person, we are in love...

When we marry, we are promising to meet each other's IENs and also promising to not let others meet them for us...

As long as we both shall live...

I cannot enthusiastically play role playing games and miniature wargames and paint figures and play world of warcraft with him enthusiastically. And he wouldn't want me to be a part of his games with his buddies anyway. We actually tried that when we were engaged and it was disastrous.

I struggle with this because while I see that the exent of his hobby gets in the way of our relationship, he is very good at the painting, the making of game terrain. This is his life, his passion, and it's not as if he's in some garage band that will never go anywhere. He could actually sell this stuff, and his dream is to have his own company to create new games, sell merchandise, etc. He knows that he can't do it now for any number of reasons, but twice since we've been married he's had to pass up the opportunity to run a game store. He would have done it if we didn't have children, I think.

To give myself a bit of credit, I do participate to the extent I can. There is a gaming convention that he wanted to go to and I went with him (enthusiastically) and we had a very good time. Whenever we go on road trips he maps out the game stores along the way; he loves checking out other places, and I'm happy to do it with him. There are other conventions he goes to that if I went, we would both be miserable. There are times even before MB that we practiced POJA with regard to our activities; I would say that we enthusiastically POJAd our way out of a compatible relationship, which was only marginally compatible to begin with.

I agree with you on the recreation time. We both have that as a top need. In fact, me maybe more than him. I've been doing very little Recreation for our entire marriage, because I didn't want to do things alone, without him. He's been encouraging me for as long as I can remember to "get some friends" and "find some hobbies." I have been resistant to this for some reason, I think because deep down I knew this would be detrimental to building a compatible life together. Not that personal hobbies are bad or anything, within reason.

I wish that we could agree to replace some of his outside recreational time with something we do together, but he does not want to do this. To give him credit, he tries. He goes in spurts where he spends more time with me and the family. But anything he gets involved in usually ends up being something he resents, and then it's right back to the independent stuff. Sometimes I think it is more than just a bad habit that he can break. It would be like him asking me to stop biting my nails.

All he wants is for me to accept him the way he is. That is why he married me, because He believed that I loved him unconditionally. I do love him unconditionally, but not in a romantic way. He's a good man, I admire his efforts to rise above the family background he came from, to earn a decent living, going to college, having a family, a nice house in the suburbs, etc. He's living the dream of what he always wanted as a kid. ISomething he never thought he would achieve; and I'm honored that I could be a part of making that happen for him. But I have sacrificed and lost a bit of myself along the way, and yes, I guess I have some residual resentment built up that I struggle to let go of. Following MB, especially POJA, has gone a long way to healing that part of me. I see that I can be present in this marriage without sacrificing. And without being a martyr.

Sometimes the question is, what does HE want. He wants me to accept him, which I can do, but it will not help us create romantic love, only peace and compassion between us. Peace and compassion ain't so bad, actually.



Mark, to answer your questions, I do believe that if MB is followed as written by both partners, it can create romantic love. But I do believe that ultimately it takes two buyers, and some people are just perpetual renters and very content with that. My husband may be one of those people.

I'll answer your other stuff when I have time.