This is definitely a true statement. It would be very hard to determine "who started it" . . . I am willing to say that I started it, because I was so depressed and withdrawn when we first started dating. Then again, he had a "rule" about us not even kissing until I had gotten an STD/Aids test, so it was a very unusually slow starting relationship physically for me. Up to that point, I was one who typically got close physically right away (not necessarily "all the way" but very physically affectionate and doing a lot of buildup to deeper physical intimacy, as the emotional intimacy grew.) We dated for almost two months before we had ever even kissed . . . going out about 2 times a week. And we went straight from kissing to going all the way in one night. This was probably the best sexual experience I�ve had with him, and it ranks up there as one of the best in general, which is a good thing.

Today I have mixed feelings about the whole STD test thing. At the time I took it to be a sign that he was very responsible and cared about his own health and safety enough to set that boundary. And because I was so �out of sorts� emotionally during that time, I was VERY OK with it. But looking back, I think that�s because I really wasn�t �ready� for a physical relationship with ANYONE. When we started dating I had been doing a lot of very casual dating, and one of the guys who I was very interested in, who was the same faith, good job, attractive, funny, all that stuff I was looking for, attempted to push me further than I wanted to go. He didn�t get away with it, but he utterly humiliated me with his words. I have forgiven him a long time ago, as he came from a very damaged background (see a theme here?). So I was incredibly gun-shy about any kind of physical relationship with the other guys who asked me out. When it came up after the second date with my husband and he wanted me to get the test, I was relieved to be given a �stay of execution� so to speak. But by the time the results came back clean, we had focused on the other EN enough that I was more than ready.

Sadly, I think that is the last time we ever had such free and open conversation. It wasn�t so much the topics either. It was the �lightness� of it. I talked about my history, he talked about his, there was so much compassion. And as soon as we had sex, that compassion was like a slow drip oozing out of our relationship. And I was so depressed that I didn�t notice. And he was so used to NOT having women treat him with any kind of kindness or admiration that the little bit that I doled out (which WAS substantial, but not what I�m capable of either) that he never considered that he should be getting more from someone who he would consider as potential wife material.

We HAVE had conversation since then, sometimes about superficial stuff, sometimes about really deep relationship stuff. I don�t mind the superficial stuff but want a little more sharing. I don�t mind the deep relationship stuff either, but it is VERY heavy, and I do understand why he avoids it. It was far better in the beginning when it was met with compassion on both sides. It�s like both of us have lost that, and I�m hoping that I can cultivate it enough to coax it out of him. That may be hard given his family history though. He knows that he needs to be more compassionate, not just to me, but to the kids too, but he doesn�t know how, and he has seen so many shrinks that he refuses to get help at all. I don�t blame him on the shrink thing, but there are other ways to get help. I guess it�s just not worth it enough for him yet.



He actually pushes me to do some of these things. One of the phrases I�ve seen tossed around here is that the goal of MB is to become each other�s favorite recreational activity. I do know what that feels like, because I�ve had in once or twice in dating relationships. It�s GREAT, and I want that with my husband so much! I always had this vision of being married to my best friend. Well, it�s never been like that, and I have been VERY stuck on the idea that if it was never there to start with, that it can�t be created. I understand the idea that people in love lose the feeling of being in love. But can people who were never in love to start with fall deeply in love? MB says yes, and I choose to have faith in that until proven otherwise. I thought marriage would make us fall in love, because we�d be necessarily be spending more time together. And, I may be right yet!

I have developed a lot of IB as part of the cycle. But most of that (not all, but most) has been in reaction to rejection from him, with his stated sanctioning. And actually, I have made some improvements in this area throughout our marriage. I used to hate the �cell phone tether� but now I am very good at checking in and telling him where I am, what I�m doing, if I�m going to be coming home later than expected and why (geez that makes me sound like I�m out all the time . . . don�t I wish!) And I am also much better at giving him �first right of refusal� about most things. I slip sometimes.

I�m not really that involved in a lot of outside activities, especially after the third pregnancy. I just don�t have it in me. I�m not at church all week, at least not most of the time, and hardly ever in the evening. Now this week, it is a sacrifice. It�s Holy Week and I would love to be there for services every night. But I�m not sacrificing for him. I�m sacrificing for the kids, and that IS part of the deal

I would give up my IB in a heartbeat if it meant that I could trade it for equally as satisfying time with my spouse. I would give it up in a heartbeat even without a �trade� if my spouse asked me to. Do you think he is afraid that if I give up my IB, that will put him in a position of having to give up his IB and he�s not ready to give it up?

Which leads me to another, less important EN issue. I typically dress myself in a �put together� way, as much as I can being the mother of small children. I wear a lot of jeans and t-shirts, but I tuck in the Ts and I usually wear some modest jewelry to accessorize, wear light lipstick. Nothing over the top, certainly not even business casual, but nice. And I prefer to dress up a little bit with a skirt and nice top and shoes for church. My husband comments all the time about how nice I look and how slobby he looks (he uses that word, not me). I�m in great shape physically, while he probably could drop about 20-30 lbs. (The weight doesn�t really bother me much BTW. I�d love if he�d lose weight, but it has never been a complaint of mine). It�s as if my attempts to keep up my appearance actually make him feel really insecure, and I am at a loss for how to handle this. I try to avoid it or brush it off when he puts himself down. (And putting himself down is a LB to me, which I will share when appropriate.) Yes, I�ve shared with him that I�d like for him to shave his cheeks and trim the gotee regularly, but it�s not something I badger him about because he knows, and I don�t think I�ve ever insulted him or anything like that. �Do I look fat in this?� I have no idea how to answer that question! And I�m a woman! Usually I say that I think he looks just fine to me, and it�s the truth.


I�m not sure if this has been missed in the whole sex topic. SF is one of MY top needs! I would put it right up there at the very top just under Conversation, or maybe right next to it even. I am a very sexual, sensual person, and I miss that part of my life desperately. Those other forms of rejection you state are not just what I have done to him over time . . . he has done them to me, too. I would LOVE to snuggle in bed before we go to sleep, or while watching TV. I would LOVE for us to kiss each other when we come and go. I absolutely know the pain of not having those things. It is actually FAR more painful than the rejection of not feeling like a having a conversation. It cuts very deep.

Some of it is lifestyle issues. He doesn�t typically like watching TV. We used to watch stuff together a lot more before kids, but even then it wasn�t much and now it is even less. He�s just not a TV guy. I LOVE watching TV and movies and would love to do it with him! Or the bed thing. He is a night owl by nature, while I�m more of a morning person. However, if the conversation is good, it�s like high test coffee for me! But he and I have VERY different routines when it comes to bed, and that is a major source of frustration for me. We have tried to negotiate this issue in good faith, and have not been able to arrive at a mutually agreeable solution. THIS IS CRAZY!!!! IT�S JUST BEDTIME!!!! THIS SHOULD BE AN EASY ONE!!!!!! (Can you sense my frustration?) I say that humorously, because I have (mostly) accepted that this is one of those things that will not likely change even if all the other MB stuff �takes.� I think I have a better chance of him converting and becoming a deacon And really, I don�t think I�d want that either.

I�ve read a lot of Lurioosi�s threads and posts, and her struggle would be very hard for me. I wouldn�t trade.

I think this is why I �get� what a lot of you are saying about sex. Because I do understand the rejection, at least from my own perspective. I think it is even harder for men, especially when you�ve put it the way you do. I�ve read Hold�s posts too, and I don�t ever want to do that to my husband. It makes me ill to think that I�ve been on a slow steady path to doing just that.

OK, I�ve talked a lot about my husband, and I really don�t want to focus on �complaining� about him. I think I�ve balanced it with the �me� stuff too. I just want to fill in a little more background, and some of the �little� struggles that may have simple solutions that I�m overlooking.

I just re-read what I posted, and I forgot one major thing:

I really don't CARE "who started" the downward spiral, because at this point, we have both been feeding into it.

Bubbles, you asked WAY back about exactly WHAT I was stopping . . . I am stopping the cycle. Now I know that a lot of you will think that my once a month minimum is a lot of nonsense, but it is a huge improvement. Back in December my husband said that as we were "repairing" things that he would take sex "off the table" for a while, because he knew that pressure was getting to me. BLESS HIM!!! I felt this HUGE weight lift from me almost literally, and I have never been so positive and loving toward him! I also experienced this during my postpartum non-sex times, which I'm sure the oxytocin was helping too. This does show that he is willing to work. That said, that lack of pressure lasted about 2 weeks He did try though. That is when I came up with my temporary solution. I truly don't want to utterly deprive him or be in a sexless marriage.

Please understand that my goal is to increase the sexual frequency gradually. As I said, it's one of my top needs too. Catholic guilt aside (hehehe! I've found that southern baptist guilt is FAR more potent LOL!)

I think there are a lot of "cycles" that need to be stopped. The SF is just one of them.

Stopping LB is a top priority for me. And as I've said before, he is noticing a difference. He says I've been a lot nicer in the last few weeks (which really is saying something, because in the last two months I've also been coming to grips with the eating disorder, having a lot of "milestones" in my alanon program, on top of a TON of work for my business and the stewardship renewal at my church, which I was handling pretty much alone).

As far as conversation go, we definitely have had it, but it's heavy. I try very hard to just listen and reflect. i fail sometimes, but I know that if I were trying to do the same thing last year at this time, we'd probably be sleeping in separate bedrooms by now. Progress not perfection

Thinking,

I don't understand your rationale for doing it "gradually".

JUMP IN.



This is called "sacrifice" and we know where that mess leads.

Thinking,

2 x 4 alert:











Please consider how you would feel if one of your TOP ENs was filled "gradually." This plan of yours seems to be pointed in the direction of Resentment. Have sex with your husband.




Dear Thinking,

HAVE SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND.

your pal,
Chris






Thinking, have sex with your husband and have sex with him when he feels like it whether you feel like it or not and what's more - if you like something he does during the act (I don't care how small it is) ask for more of it. Since you are a sensual person (your words ) I'll wager that you will really get into it & you will see something magical happen in your marriage.




Please try this for FIVE DAYS and report back.

Chris, I'm not sure if I've said this in my thread or not.

I do OFFER more than once a month. That was my minimum, my starting point. He is in withdrawl. He has actually said no. In fact, the last "round" on night 1 I offered and he said no. Second night, he said yes, but I screwed it up by starting with a little chatting that went on too long for his taste and ticked him off, for which I IMMEDIATELY apologized, but he was no longer in the mood. On day 3 I offered again, he took me up on it, but there was no love for either of us. But I was there enthusiastically and willingly.

The month prior, we had 2 or 3 sexual encounters that were pretty decent physically, and I did what you said about telling him what I liked. I'm pretty good at communicating my sexual likes.

The main holdup right now is that i have about 3 weeks in which I know without doubt that I am not fertile, and one of them is when AF is around. Since condoms have failed once, BCP makes me both CRAZY and DRY, and he doesn't have a vasectomy YET, doesn't seem to be in a hurry to get it, we are kinda limited in what either one of us can be enthusiastic about.

Trust me I have done a LOT of motive checking on this, and while the birth control issue may have originally been a bit of a good excuse, it truly is NOT "just an excuse" right now.

I would LOVE to engage in other things of a sexual nature (except anal and BJ). But that seems to be more frustrating for him than anything.

The sexual rejection does go both ways on this.

I actually have a question about initiating, and you guys could chime in here and help me out.

I am willing to "amp up" the SF. But he already knows that it's something I have to work at it a bit. So he is also in withdrawl with the sex thing.

On top of that, he has stopped looking at the porn. I don't think I mentioned that yet. He has been "white nuckling it" for the past month, and I am unbelievably proud of him and have told him so. I'm not going to fly off the handle if he "slips" either, because I know it is hard to stop and I'm just honored that he shares this struggle with me. But one of the things he has said is that he now is not interested in ANY sex, I think because he said he is "dulling" his sex drive. That's not how he phrased it, but how I understood it. He talked about the guilt and that it's like his brain now thinks that all sex is bad.

Yes, I can see where my past rejection of him contributes to this. But it is not all me. I think he's stopping himself by telling himself "sex is bad" in order to stop the porn. Kinda like when I have said to myself, "Feelings of anger are bad," and as a result, I dull my feelings of anger, and also all my other more positive feelings.

I don't want to cause him any further harm. So I'm not sure if I should even offer SF. But he won't know when I am or am not willing to have a little SF time if I don't at least mention it to him. And I really would hate for him to ask it at the absolutely worst time of the month for that!

It is quite a delimma, and since I don't know how a guy's mind works, perhaps some of you could help me out on this.

In a lot of ways it is like we are starting from scratch on the sex thing. We know "what" to do once we get it started, but neither one of us seems to know how to get it started!

I feel like a completely inadequate newlywed, and I think he does too.

There are a lot of ways to initiate sex when you are breaking out of sexual withdrawal. Each can be tried, discarded, or embraced. These are baby steps toward great sex but can be solutions. We tried many of these when working out our issues...:

1. You can try a week or two (or more) of SCHEDULED SEX. You can make it as loose as the "last friday of the month" or as tight as 8PM on Friday April 13th. Schedule about 5 sex sessions out. Place a code for sex on the calander, schedule them together or apart and let the other person know.

2. You two can talk about frequency and a good time that you would enjoy having sex. For example you two could discuss that a good time for him is after 8PM on a Saturday nite. After the kids are in bed. You could say you would like that and also at noon on Saturday with the kids out of the house. then you can nail down a couple good times in the next few weeks.

3. You could talk to him about frequency he would like IF YOU TWO WERE GETTING ALONG GOOD LIKE BEFORE.

4. Signals like leaving a special pillow on the bed, that means sex will happen after 8PM that night. You have to be serious about what these signals mean since one time my H and I decided to turn on a special lamp in the master bedroom and that would mean SEX THAT NITE. Well, i saw the lamp on and started getting mentally ready for the pleasure and waited and waited for him to come upstairs. When he did not come upstairs until midnight I was getting upset. I reminded him of the light on and he said he FORGOT that that was what the lite was for. I was terribly hurt and stomped around for a while and slept in the other room.

5. Ask him to shave and he is then allowed to ask you to do some thing regarding your personal grooming. Tradsies.

6. He pleasures you one night, any way you want. Then, the next night you pleasure him. it can include IC but not needed if you want to try other things.

7. Set a day for sex every week if you want to fast track the sex life. Then both can plan.

8. Tell your husband you have the desire to improve your lovelives. Ask him to help you come up with ideas to do this.

I forgot you dont use BC so you are limited on days and times. If you used rythym and condoms or diaphram would that work to add more flexibility? He is so used to your rigid sex rules I guess you would have to show him another side of yourself so he could relax a little again about sex.

You could think of other ways to initiate sex. Many of the ways lift the burdon of ONE PERSON initiating. Scheduled sex is that way. If no one wants that burdon, then make it mechanical. Like sending an e-mail with a heart to remind both people of the scheduled date and time. If it is automatically scheduled, both might feel less push and akwardness in having to "actually initiate" as uncomfortable as that can be together with the added fears of rejection.

It is all experimentation to see what works to get your lives back on track, what does not work and why, and learn other things.

Those are a great help, Bubbles.

I don't think he is "used to my rigid sex rules" as much as he is baffled and confused about when is and is not a good time for sex. I think there is a lot of time when we could potentially do this, it's just the initiating that is difficult. Also, some of the ways that HE initiates are a LB to me. More on that later, because at this point, as long as he initiates in any way and I'm not worried about pregnancy, then I will not reject him. We can work on his LB later when it's a little less tense.

OK ya�ll, help me do a post-mortem on this.

This morning I went back to bed after oldest was on the bus. I rubbed husband�s chest, snuggled some, he responded by snuggling back, then taking my shirt and my pants off. Since I�m �ok� for sex and trying to make myself available, I didn�t reject him or try to pull away. He said some really nice things about wanting to stay married to me. The he tried intercourse. I was very open emotionally, but my body wasn�t responding and it was a little uncomfortable, and got moreso. So we stopped.

This is incredibly frustrating. This is what happened all the time during the first few months we were married. I was mentally willing, but my body was apparently not on the same page. Now there ARE medical issues that complicate things. I have a condition called interstitial cystitis, which is chronic but goes in remission when I�m pregnant and takes about a year and a half to two years later to return. It has not been a problem for most of our marriage, because I�m been pregnant or postpartum most of the last 9 years! But now it is apparently coming back, on top of everything else.

I worry that he interprets my pain and lack of arousal fluid as rejection, in the same way that I might experience his lack of an erection as rejection. (That�s not a problem BTW, just saying as an example).

I�m not sure how to deal with this aspect of the sex problem. The cells of the body have �pain memory� and often react to the stimulus that originally caused pain even if there is no reason for the pain. When we were first married and I was diagnosed with this condition, I had to be in months of physical therapy to undo the damage cause by my tensing muscles. I also got a treatment which helped the IC problem from the inside (IC is like a bladder infection except there is no biological cause, rather physiological, so the normal bladder infection treatments don�t work even though the symptoms are roughly the same.)

Obviously part of the solution is to seek treatment again, which will take some time to see the results of. It took about 4 months before I was able to comfrotably have sewx back when this happened our first year. This is NOT the best timing for this!

You see, my resistance to the whole sex thing is more than me just trying to hold it over his head, or to �hurt him before he hurts me� emotionally. The physical component is a very real challenge that is not just in my head! I have mentioned before that I think I have electric fence tendancies, and this is literally electric fence-like pain. It is sometimes better if we use lubrication, but my body is funny about that stuff. Sometimes it works great, but other times it�s like it burns my skin, and I usually don�t know it�s going to happen until AFTER it happens.

Any insight would be helpful, if there is any.

thinkin, what would you do if a sister called you with the BC dilemma? How about the shot, the in-the-arm I think it's called depo-provera, the nuvaring, that has a lower dose of chemicals than the pill. A friend had a laparoscopic tubal ligation after two "oops" kids. I don't know, is this something you want to resolve now, or is it okay now with how things are?

Thinkin, Dr. Harley has an article about pain in intercourse. Can you try that physical therapy again, would that help?

I can really relate. It's a real pain in the butt to make time to deal daily with this medical stuff that comes up!

I'm not OK with anything like surgery. If my life were in danger and my organs had to be removed or something that would be one thing.

I might be willing to try other hormonal things to see if they worked without the side effects. I'm just REALLY skittish about trying anything chemical because of the side effects. I got incredibly dry and didn't produce arousal fluid AT ALL. And if it's a lower dose, I do know people who have gotten pregnant on low-dose pills.

It's not just about "the rules" of the church. I can make up my onw mind what is and is not OK for me. The rules guide me in making that decision, but I do try to follow the siprit of the law moreso than the letter of the law. In this case, the spirit of the law is that we are not to play God with even our own lives, or our marriages. My body and my life and my marriage belong to God, for HIS purpose. We may abstain for a time by mutual consent. I tend to think ot the more temporary versions of birth control to fall in that category because they are temporary. The are "abstaining from procreation" FOR A TIME. For me, anything permanent like a tubal violates this. In the same way that the IUD violates the right to life because it prevents a fertlized egg from implanting. If I believe that life begins at conception, and IUD may be effect because it is killing a child before it gets the chance to implant.

I know not everyone agrees with this reasoning, and I am not going to force it on anyone else. But I know what is and is not right for me and what violates my conscience the most.

Yes, I've read Harley's article. MANY times. That is pretty much what we did when we had this problem when we were first married. However, neither of had 9 years worth of resentment and pain to work through at that point, so it took less time.

I think that my HUSBAND should also read Harley's article I'm not going to push it yet though. I don't want to push him into withdrawl just as he is peeking his head into the conflict stage.

I would be very frank with hubby and let him know you are going to the doc to try to get this problem treated.

Then you can use other methods - hand, mouth, between your breasts, be creative!

I don't want to get into too many details of your sex life, so I'll just say that if sex hurts I don't think you should have sex. I do think you should do something, though.

As always, I recommend reading (voraciously devouring!) everything Dr. Harley has to say about this subject:

* Sexual fulfillment chapter in His Needs, Her Needs
* 14 articles on sexual issues in the Q&A pages: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5520_qa.html , particularly "Pain during intercourse" and "How to overcome sexual aversion"
* Dr. Harley also recommends several books and seems to strongly suggest getting ahold of other books on the subject

Even if you've read it before, I say read it again!

Who would ever want sex without at least 1/2 hour of foreplay? Sounds like there is basically no forplay here. Is that true? Taking off your shirt and pants is not forplay. Is your husband's bedroom technique lacking? Is the fumbling, groping way he initiates a turn off?

If you are turned off by what he does or does not do in bed, then you will never be ready for intercourse. Plus you will not want to do other things either such as hand jobs.

"Taking off your shirt and pants is not forplay."

It's not????????

THANK YOU BUBBLES!!!!!

He is not very good in the foreplay area. I'm just not sure how to address this with him NOW when we are sort of on shaky ground.

He and I have been through this before . . . it's a part of that cycle that I'm trying to stop, and it's something that I have only lmited control over.

Being emotionally connected BEFOREHAND helps lessen the need for good foreplay. I think that is why I'm so focused on "him change, then I'll change." Because ultimately, I'm not sure he can change his "style".

I LOVE kissing. I would go for hours kissing if I could. But I really don't like kissing him, in part because of the facial hair, in part because of the way he uses his mouth and toungue. I have no idea how to fix that. We have deifnitely been able to work on the stuff he does with other parts of my body, and he is very good ONCE I'M AROUSED. It's getting there that's the hardest part. Staying there is hard for me too, because I have my mind going in a million directions thinking about the laundry, the kids schedules, the work that is sitting in my inbox upstairs, the fact that I'm STARVING! Because the TIMES he initiates often are really NOT good times for me.

The best times we have are when we've both had a full night sleep and I initiate first thing in the morning when I'm relxed. Now that the kids are older and out of their beds, that doesn't happen as often because I'm not relxed. Throw in my "rigid sex rules" as B$U so kind calls them, and it is quite a challenge. I think I'f we both went and got our various tubes tied, we still would have a huge uphill battle on our hands!

OK, I'm going to stop focusing on the negative. He wanted SF, and I willingly responded. And even though it wasn't stellar, we didn't get mad at each other either. It wasn't about the SF for either of us as much as it was the expression of our DESIRE to make it work and that is what is important.

Short term anyway. Long term we need to be having good sex.

Believer, not if it takes 20 seconds. It is not working for her! oh you are just kidding, right! LOL