I like how you said this and I believe it also. I never thought of those three "rights" however. I inspired by that. I am thinking up some easy (or not) techniques you can put into practice to make your marriage better. Now that I know what the deal is finally.

Maybe I can give you some new ideas tomorrow or the next couple days. I think you have to learn to be as assertive as you have ever been, except assertive FOR YOU. I think we women fall gradually in these bad situations because we do not bravely and kindly assert our rights in the marriage.

You have the right to be respected, loved, sexually cherished (appreciated as if you were fine gold) and understood..... by your husband in the marriage. You may have to teach him to do this in a very assertive/kind way,.

Hopefully things will progress toward those goals.

I did think of one thing that you might try.

I know you feel out of control or a lack of control some of the time. If I felt this way I would want to know exactly what ways I felt OUT of control, what ways I feel IN CONTROL< and if I am OK with this. There could be 100 things from cooking, eating, cleaning, to money issues and religion, sex and friends...


I would make three columns in a spiral notebook, one for AM IN CONTROL, NOT IN MY CONTROL, OK WITH IT OR NOT OK.

Then list all the things in your life. You might find you are more or less in control than you think you are. You may see patterns that could help you break the cycles.

I hope the best for you. I want to come over and BAT that husband of yours...but maybe he can change.

Well, that was exhausting...

JK

Interstitial cystitis seems to be quite the problem for those unfortunate enough to have it. Since there seems to not be an answer to the cause a lot of doctors probably don't even consider it to be something actually treatable and so are not likely to figure out what can help.

In the bit of reading I did in the last half hour or so (you didn't think I'd jump in without knowing something, did you?) it can be made worse or the symptoms can become worse if you drink a lot acidic stuff. Coffee, tea, fruit juices all were mentioned in more than one article I found (Google es mi amigo) as things that often cause more severe symptoms.

Do you have other IC symptoms as well? Are your symptoms more in line with IC or vulvodynia? Not trying to be embarrassing here, just wondering.

My actual recommendation is to look for a doctor with possible solutions other than what you had to experience in times past. There may also be some simple folks remedies that work to curb symptoms but I understand that even medical treatment s can take while it work and have an effect. One website recommends drinking baking soda in water a few times per day to modify the PH in the bladder. Not certain how this would work but found the same on at least tow websites. What I read does say that it takes an hour or so to have any effect.

Since I am not a doctor, I suggest you find one who can figure this out because the alternative is not usually much fun from what I read tonight. I also read where the symptoms sometimes go away of their own accord just as mysteriously as they appeared at first. Not very promising was the fact that they sometimes return again in later years or last for many years before vanishing as if by magic.

I know my wife experienced pain during intercourse for a few years. She went in to have a hysterectomy and the doctor said he was amazed by sheer size of her ovaries and cervix. She hasn't experienced pain since though the hot flashes took a while and she was on estrogen replacement therapy for a while. One of the things they used for that REALLY improved the ole sex life...

Anyway, her pain went away, but her symptoms weren't really the same as for IC, so I don't know what to tell you so I guess I'd better shut the h377 up...

Shaddup Mark...

Just a side note, if IC is the problem you have, lube, natural or externally applied probably won't help much. The problem isn't going to go away by changing husbands either if that is the problem.

Mark <Shutting up now...>

Well, from what I know of IC in learning about it 8 years ago, it can be triggered by foods. Sadly, I'm not much of an eater as it is, and most of the "trigger foods" are staples in my diet. They recommend an elimination diet, which would mean the little I eat would be gone! I don't think it's a food issue in my case though.

I used to work at a place where I would get so caught up in the work that literally hours would go by without me peeing. I think it really upset the apple cart of my whole system. However, I had been out of that job for over a year when the symptoms of IC started. I don't know.

I found the solution before to be very effective, so I'm comfortable doing that again. I also have a new more natural-minded doc right now and she may be able to come up with some different remedies than the urologist.

I'm pretty sure it IS IC. The thing they look for is tiny punctures on the linig of the bladder. I had that.

We had anohter "experience" last evening that was a bit better for both of us. No intecourse, and I wasn't fully "there" but he is feeling a lot more hopeful right now, so that is what is most important to me now. I'm not sure the best time to deal with my needs.

Also, I don't think I am in need of the physical therapy as much this time around. My pelvic floor is 10 years older and has goenthrough 3 kids

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Let me explain why. If I believe that I have the "right" to anything other than what the good lord gave from the time he knit me together in my mother's womb, then I allow myself to be guided by a sense of entitlement that grows and grows as I continue to feed it. Do I have the right to be respected? Not really. Others have the RESPONSIBILITY to be respectful and choose. I have the right to my life, the right to make a choice (such as to set a boundary against the disrespectful person), and to persue doing good (meeting my own responsibilities).

Most of the things we toss around as "rights" are not really rights at all. They are "responsibilities" of all of us to provide care and protection to our fellows. We can choose to do this, or we can choose not to, and we can live with the consequences. The best situation, whether it be a marriage or a country, is where the participants are actually given the freedom to make those choices, whether it is a good choice or a bad choice. Those choice have consequences, sometimes the consequences affect other people. But coercing or forcing someone to meet their responsibility is tyranny, even in a relationship.

Now I do agree that I have to teach my husband to the degree that I have the responsibility to do good. I have the responsibility to provide care, protection, time and honesty for myself, and that means asking my husband for the care, protection and time and honesty that is inherent in the institution of marriage. If I were single, I would have to provide these things for myself in other ways, probably freindships, employment, etc. If my husband does not live up to his responsiblity, I have choices, and those choices have consequences. Just as HE has choices and consequences. The trick is to find out what choices are mine, which are his, and to not make his choices for him, because again, that is tyrany.

I'm a bit on the heady/intellectual side. And I have a tendancy to come off as self-righteous and arrogant. So asking him and teaching him in a kind compassionate way is where the biggest challeng comes for me. These things do not always come easily for me. But maybe that's why God brought the two of us together. Sometimes we only get what we need by giving away that which we don't have. Sometimes that is where the healing is. Because we know that it isn't really us, that it is actually a higher power or God working through me, and that is truly a healing force for everyone involved.

Markos said that his wife is his ministry and I really love that. In the catholic church we pray for vocations, and most of the time we just think of priests or deacons. But marriage is a sacramental ministry too. True, I don't really LIKE this ministry sometimes. It lacks fulfillment at times. But there are other times when it is very fulfilling in surpising ways. I just have to look for it.

My DH is my minstry....I like that too. It gives it a whole new feel. Not this "Do this so he will do that and the math works" thing. But a ministry. The thing about the math is that it might not ever work perfectly. So what do I do then? Chunk him (or he chunks me)? I don't think so!

Okay, sorry to have an epiphany all over your thread.

I was diagnosed with something before I got married. I was still a virgin and had never even used a tampon (yeah TMI...too bad ). I had to go back to the gyn 3 times before he could complete the exam. It was embarassing. Of course, I was terrified at the thought of the wedding night by that time. My doc actually told me to use lamaze breathing! It did work. But mine wasn't IC. I think it boiled down to good old fashion tension.

But anyway, I am glad you had a more positive experience this time. I had some thoughts about the most recent discussions, but for some reason my southern-ness makes it hard for me to write out "details", if ya catch my drift. Har har

Hey there Think,

What needs, if any, is your husband meeting for you.

That's a great question Bubbles, one that deserves more time than I have right now.

He definitely meets Financial Security for the most part. And that was one that he did NOT meet when we got engaged. He changed that area of his life a lot. He would still be a frivilous spender if left to his own devices, but I think taking the Dave Ramsey class helped both of us get our financial priorities in order, and also helped us tremendously in communicating about money and making decisions more jointly. We'd had a joint account before that, but after the class we had joint money, not his and mine.

I think he gives my admiration too, but that is not one of my top needs.

One of my top needs is recreation, and that was done much more before we had kids. Now, not so much. But that is the nature of parenthood, too, and it is also not as big a need for me now.

Again, I need to think about it more.

Another one that comes to mind is openness and honesty. He does not keep secrets.

On the other hand, he does not share his emotions. I do not believe he is emotionally honest with himself or anyone. I suppose this is a disrespectful judgement, but this is how I experience things.

He has stated himself that most of the time he feels only tow �emotions�: anger and nothingness. I know this has not always been the case. In fact, I know that when he is with his friends playing and RPG or miniature wargame, he is energetic and grinning from ear to ear. When he is hanging out with one of his friends while the go out shooting, they are both lively and fun to be around. He has to work at it with the kids, but there are times when he seems �happy� when he is playing with them, although this is usually just in small bursts. I have also seen him get sad or thoughtful on occasion. But I do understand what he is saying. He does not feel his own feelings. I know, because I�ve been there too, in the land of numbness and anger. I used to be very uncomfortable with my other feelings, but now I recognize them and accept that they are important but temporary.

So the way I see it, he cannot be open and honest about his feelings WITH ME, because he is not open and honest about them WITH HIMSELF. The feelings he does acknowledge, like anger and numbness and frustration, and sometimes fear, he shares willingly and unfailingly. His ability to meet the need for O&H is limited less by his willingness (I believe he is 100% willing), and more by is ability.

Call this a DJ if you want. Part of me thinks that it is. But it is how I experience O&H in our relationship.

I, for my part, and not very good at O&H. In part for the same reason. I don�t always KNOW what my thoughts and feelings are, or I am unable to find the right words without being disrespectful or DJ or AO. I also have a lot of fear of being O&H because of how he will reaction.

Well, I can�t control how he will react, so the solution to that is to not take it personally. I am responsible for the effort of being O&H to the best of my ability, and let go of the outcome.

Having the right words is something I can control. First, I can learn from the times when I�ve made mistakes. Lots of lessons there I can also think before I speak, or if it is something planned and not spontaneous I can share it with my sponsor or with you all first.

Knowing what my thoughts and feelings are is something I have only limited control over. I think being open to awareness is key, and I am. This is an area that has improved a lot over the last 6 months, and I see steady improvement as I continue my alanon program.

OK, back to sex for a minute. I'm going to post this on the other thread too.

I was reading Harley�s articles on sex again with new eyes and lots of stuff jumped out at me. First of all, I learned that I am suffering from both primary and secondary causes of pain with intercourse. And in my case, I believe the secondary causes are the ones that are impacting the situation greatly.

With regard to the Interstitial Cystitis, the pain that I experienced in the past with this was probably more secondary than primary. I had VERY tight vaginal muscles (my first OB said I would never deliver vaginally . . . boy was she wrong! I 3 without drugs and it was great!). And the technique that Harley describes for dealing with secondary causes is roughly what happened in physical therapy. Manual massage of my tight vaginal muscles, like you would massage a knot out of someone�s back. After 3 kids, I don�t think my vagina will ever be that tight again! In fact, I know a lot of women who have lots of pain with sex after having kids, but in my case, at least after Baby #1, the physical pain was no longer the problem, while the emotional pain took over.

OK, so I am probably dealing with a �secondary� source of pain. It is also likely the IC is making a return and should be dealt with. But there have been times lately when we have had painless sex or vaginal stimulation, so I don�t think it�s simply a physiological issue.

I think the key problem is arousal, as Bubbles, our local sex expert, has so keenly pointed out. This should have been a no-brainer for me, and I don�t know why I didn�t identify it myself. I do not get aroused easily by my husband, and it is incredibly frustrating for both of us.

From Harley�s article �Turning a Willingness to Make Love into a Desire to Make Love�:


He goes on to give other examples of foreplay that work for some women, but this is the one that works for me. Conversation, affection (not AS important) and kissing. OK, so essentially this is my point with the whole frustration over sex. I NEEEEEED conversation before sex. It is so validating to see this written in the good doc�s own words! If I engage in sex without at least conversation or good kissing, I never become aroused, and I have to rely on lubricants to get the job done, and lubricants alone are not enough to overcome the secondary pain which is not only a protective reflex but also an emotional protection issue as well . . . the memories of the times when my husband �finished� quickly, or didn�t hold me afterwards for long enough, or simply the bad memories of lack of foreplay. I guess I never realized that these things were affecting me like they are. I knew they bothered me, but I thought I was supposed to just get over it to make sure that his EN for SF was met.

So here�s the problem. Do I have sex WITHOUT being aroused because SF is an important EN to my husband, given the fact that it is ME who is �going first� and trying to bring him out of withdrawl to the point that he can then begin to meet my EN for conversation, and then the �good sex� can finally begin? If so, how long should I do this?

I ask how long, because this is essentially the action I�ve been taking for my entire marriage, almost 9 years. We have had sex regularly, on average once a week. I know that doesn�t sound like a lot, but when I hear stories of people who go months or years without sex, I can�t even imagine that. Back in December, my husband temporarily took sex �off the table� to let the pressure off me, for which I was very grateful. And even though he was ready to reengage about 2 weeks later, I was ready for sex a few weeks after that, even without feeling as emotionally connected as I would have liked. As I said, I too have a high need for SF (of excellent quality).

I want to be a little snot right now and say that the only way I can be enthusiastic about meeting our mutual need for SF is if he bucks up and learns how to talk with me in a way that arouses me. And I have serious doubts that he is capable of it because of our differences. I can�t change the way he kisses. So kissing isn�t going to cut it. And while I like affection, affection alone doesn�t cut it either. I do like affection, but not when it is being used to jump start sexual feelings. In fact, I can say with certainty that even in my past relationships, if a guy tried to jump from non-sexual affection straight to things of a sexual nature, and I wasn�t ready for it, I would shut down and begin to distrust affection itself, even though I have a need for affection.

So the way I see it, my arousal is dependent on HIM filling the need for conversation in an effective way. I hate that. It seems so un-MB based on the conversation we�ve been having on this topic this week.

Any thoughts? Where am I blind? How do I troubleshoot this?

How do I become aroused by the presence of my husband without him meeting my intimate EN?

Teach me this and I may be able to become a full blown convert

How do I become aroused by the presence of my husband without him meeting my intimate EN?

This is impossible...at least in my world. Maybe if you had a husband who was gorgeous, or you were a playacting porn star....maybe you could become aroused by looking at the man. Or being around him. Maybe.

But real men and women and normal people need other things to become aroused besides the mere presence of the spouse.

Jot it down...

Note the date...

I am in complete agreement with Stella.


Think,

Let me ask you what you think is supposed to happen here? You know the covers on those romance novels? Not bloody likely, I'm afraid. Just like not every time a couple engages in sex does it turn out like a scene in a porn flick.

In order to have his mere presence get you all revved up and ready for anything would take a monumental effort until he became a directed stimulus to cause you to be ready to mate based on being totally excited by things he has done long enough that his presence alone caused those things to take place in your body. I don't know ANYONE who can sustain that.

Might happen in a fantasy or someone you just happen to meet that trips just the right trigger in order to get you to respond, but with no experience with this person you are really only responding to a pure fantasy since even this powerful physical attraction can't be sustained in real life with anything that might distract you from the fantasy.

Now if after long periods of inept technique and sufficient fear on your part related to some incident with the pain of IC in the past, your body is refusing to allow a response to anything he might do for fear of the repetition of the pain of the past. This IS a directed response and becomes sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Your body tenses, shuts down, pain ensues and the cycle repeats. Rinse and repeat...

I would guess that the fear of pain is the single biggest reason women don't have sex with their husbands...

Well, right behind the woman's rights movement...(and anyone who feels like I need to be straightened out on this topic please start a new thread and call me out so we don't interrupt this one because I said something specific, meant what I said and not what some might assign to what I said and can in fact defend what I said though I have no inclination to defend against attacks against what I did not say)

Mark

OK, that's what I thought.

So what your saying is that in my case, I am justified in saying that he needs "go first" in meeting my EN that turn me on BEFORE I can meet his need (and my own) for SF.

That it's OK for me to require my ENs to be met first. Because my arousal depends on it.

This seems to contradict everything you were all saying about sex before, maybe because you didn't understand the whole picture.

Please keep in mind that I have had pleasurable sexual experiences before. Even with my husband, although that was in the VERY early days of our sexual relationship when it was still very much a fantasy. So I kow that I am capable of this.

I have profound sympathy for men suffering from ED.

I'm not saying I won't meet all his other EN. But maybe I just need to get a lot better at meeting them, not LBing, and practicing all the other stuff so that he falls in love with me enough to stop his LBing and becomes willing to meet my EN.

For the record, I think the chances of him becoming better at meeting my EN are greater than his chances of stopping the things that LB me. For me, that is the far greater problem, for which he would need help. The only reason I am able to stop my own bad behaviors is that I am willing to change, and I have admitted that I am powerless to do that without help from others and God.

I feel your pain on this one...and, with the MB info I am really learning how to make thoughtful requests.

You can too

This statement is not quite true. LBs are many things but most often, according to something SH told us, they are bad habits. And we can retrain ourselves to replace bad behavior with better behavior. I'm working on that right now with my kids...although my husband's AOs are a huge LB for me, I realized I tended to trip that AO switch with my kids far too often and justify it with "well they push my buttons!"

Of course they push my buttons; that's what kids do. But who made the choice to respond in anger? ME.

SH had the same response to my H when he said "well I get so angry when she says xyz over and over..."

Yes, I can stop saying xyz over and over and I am working on it.

He can stop AOing.

Together, the two things just *might* draw us closer and into a state of intimacy.

That state of intimacy just *might* lead me to want to prolong SF rather than just play my role for the sake of meeting his EN for now.

Prolonging SF will always result in increased arousal for me. I will often go into it with an "ok, let's just do this because I want to meet YOUR EN" frame of mind. He's zero-60 in less than a minute...fully aroused. I'm chugging along. But eventually, like the tortoise and the hare...guess who catches up and outpaces him?

I wandered a bit off topic here with the LB thing, but I was trying to get to a point (somewhere in there..) while thinking something through for myself as well. It helps sometimes to type out advice to others!

My point is that his LBs are bad habits and he can choose to replace them with better habits. Meeting your ENs while still LBing you is not going to get you into a state of intimacy so that you can even *want* to be close enough to him long enough to achieve satisfying SF.

I'd recommend getting him on the same page with you (and MB) re: lovebusters and having him work on those before the ENs. Think of his eliminating LBs as an EN of yours for now!

FWIW, I'm having a bit of a difficult time getting my own husband on board with this. Whenever he starts yelling at the kids (like I did/still do sometimes), I try the "habit" theory out on him and he is in no mood to hear it. His response is usually "I'm the Dad, I"m in control and what I say goes..I don't want to hear any backtalk from them!" (he has control issues!) So I need to pick a time when he is NOT angry to try to bring this up...or have SH bring it up in the context of eliminating the AOs in general.

Because I know if he's still thinking this about the kids, he's applying it to me as well..justifying his AOs in terms of something *I* did.

think you have mentioned "kissing" several times....are you saying that his kissing is not to your liking and you can't change that??

If so then I must admit I have this same problem...it is a deep dark secret that I have held for 20yrs of marriage...I truly thought while in courtship that I could "teach" him how but he just couldn't seem to catch on like other men I had kissed before....I miss those long passionate kissing make out sessions that make me so aroused in just a few moments.....I have had pain over thinking I'll never be kissed like that again as long as I live....he smokes and has bad breath most times also...and facial hair also that is so difficult to get past...I asked him to shave his large beard off and he kept it for almost 10yrs...about 1yr ago he suddenly shaved it off but has alway kept a mustache and mostly doesn't groom it well...long hairs growing over his lip and stuff....it's such a turn off...and then his technique is just awful...so I haven't french kissed my spouse in at least 18yrs or so....I am to afraid to talk about this or bring it up....I once told him during that he needed to touch me a certain way and he said "do you want to do it yourself!" he was hurt/mad....I just wanted to show him the spot to touch and how to do it....we did work thru that one but it took yrs and yrs...I don't get that reaction to be honest as I was a virgin with him and asked him over and over..do you like this...am I doing this right? I wasn't concerned about my pride or whatever...I wanted to learn to be a good lover and I was clueless w/o his feedback to me...he wasn't upset and answered me and so on and so I got better at it....I wish he was approachable....I miss the kissing and petting stuff....and I don't know how to approach this and can't right now as we haven't been having sexx for over 5mo's....but I am hopeful in future we will resolve things and return to it....and I want to address it and make it wonderful for both of us at that time....sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread...it's just that you mentioned the kissing and it triggered this in me....I have never told another living soul this and feel uncomfortable doing so now.

Thinking,

Regarding your comments about anger and numbness...I feel that my H has those as his primary / default setting. When we're out with friends or when he's playing with our child I do observe him smiling and laughing but he can very quickly leave that happy state and return to anger / numbness as soon as the contact with friends has ended or if during the play with our child something happens which he doesn't like or expect. At one point I thought about the fact that our child may be afraid to play with him because it could end with anger very quickly.

My H's moods can change in an instant, and the most comfortable place appears to be angry / numb. He tends to have a negative outlook on things...It's always about what he can't do. and what will not work because of reason abcdxyz. One thing which makes him happy: Shopping / spending $.

In short - I believe that my H feels angry / numb more than anything else and it makes me wonder if I can ever truly be happy in our marriage. You said you have had IC, but I wonder (actually I doubt) whether he would actually consider getting help.

You mentioned that you have been there (in the angry / numb mindset). Can you share anything about that from your perspective?

And that is a problem...MB math says meeting ENs will not up a Love bank balance while LBs are in effect. Pouring water into a glass with a big hole in the bottom will never fill the glass.


Has made a similar admission?

I am glad you expressed yourself regarding the kissing, hopefully you can think up some ideas of how to approach it NOW without stepping on your husband's delicate feelings yet getting what you want out of the kissing.

I know you can turn this around so he will kiss better!!!! I want you to think up 3 approaches of how you could attack this problem and then we will help you pick one.

Then, when you are feeling brave, you can execute one of the "change the way you kiss please" sexy behavior changes and your marriage will be better because of it.

Surely you could like having more frequent sex with him if he would just act sexy to you.

The bottom line is WE NEED, WE WANT, AND WE DESIRE THAT OUR SPOUSES ACT SEXY TO US, WE DO NOT WANT THEM TO ACCIDENTLY TURN US OFF, WE WANT THEM TO TURN US ON!!!!!