SD Wolf, can you offer any suggestions about how to add exercise into our family schedule? From my viewpoint, right now I don�t see any extra time anywhere that isn�t eaten up. And we�re not anywhere near a 24 hour gym.

I feel like I need to address his sleep issues a little more. This is not me making DJ, but based on actual conversations that we have had about the issue. The sleep problem is due in part to his beliefs, which in turn affect his habits.

He has a really hard time believing in the afterlife. He thinks that once you die, that�s it. Nothing. He also is a bit paranoid about dying young (always has) so he is worried about all the time that is wasted on sleep. He�s afraid to sleep because it will mean that he is wasting the precious time he has to live. So he stays up late and plays video games. Go fig.

So here are the habits. He stays up late and plays World of Warcraft with all his buddies. It�s a social outlet for him and a stress outlet. And playing on the computer definitely is not the most conducive activity for restful sleep. Also, he eats late at night, which also keeps him up. If he�s not playing WoW, then he paints miniature wargame figures. Ever seen �40 Year Old Virgin�? Those guys. And he is an incredibly talented painter. He believes (and I agree) that when he paints, some of his spirit is imbued in the work. I totally get this. We leave our spiritual mark on everything we touch, especially what we create. For me, this is a nice sentimental thought. For him it encompasses his belief in the afterlife. This is his form of immortality. To ask him to give it up would be like asking me to give up being Catholic. For him it is not just a behavior. It is who he is. I respect that. I thought I could live with it. I do live with it. But sometimes I feel that this behavior gets in the way of us being able to have a mutually fulfilling relationship because of the consequences. Just as I�m sure he feels that my being Catholic gets in the way of us having a mutually fulfilling relationship.

I believe that these situations are things that could be POJAd eventually, when we both feel safe with the process of negotiating. The bottom line is that it�s not really about the sleep. The lack of sleep has deeper causes which he is unwilling to address.

The sad thing is that this DOES affect his health, and will contribute to an earlier death than might otherwise be expected. Ironic.

LOL...well my name really isn't "Mr. Anderson" it's "Neo"...LOL...I got the moniker from the movie the Matrix..."Neo" was Mr. Anderson's online hacker name...
It's great he goes above and beyond at work...I'm ex Military and can relate to that...I too go above and beyond at work, BUT I also understand that next to my relationship with God, my family has to come next and job last.

Somehow your hubby needs to see his family and relationship with you as a priority...he can still go above and beyond at work, he just may need to develop new habits or routine.

When I'm hit with a project that requires extra hours...I still go in at my normal time (7am), but I promise my wife that I'll work no later that 6pm...that way I'm home for supper and still have time to help with homework/after supper chores and bedtime routine...Since I too have to work on Saturday's...I tell my wife that on Friday's I get off at my normal time 3:30 (even if I go in earlier, like at 6am) and I only work half a day on Saturday's. IF there's a day in there where I have to work later than 6pm, then it's never a problem.

Since you feel you've made progress and now him taking on more hours, you feel that may set you back...I would try and be honest with him with how you feel about the extra hours...maybe suggest a routine like the one I have...sure he may have to go to bed earlier, but I don't know how he can change that habit

...my wife is a night owl...like your hubby, she's up until 1am (I don't like it, but I've learned to just keep quite or i'll get the "I'm not your child" response when I suggest she goes to bed earlier...pick and choose your battles and that's one I just chose not to pick...lol...but it does hinder our SF).

Personally I believe it's doable for him to manage his time between work and family commitment, like I said it'll take a change in his routine, but it's doable...

Now the key will be telling him this without sounding like you're "telling him what to do"...that I'm no good at, but maybe some here can help you with that.

Good Luck

Mostly I think I need to sit by and watch until it becomes too unmanageable for him to continue the current pattern. In the past I have smoothed things over for him. Gotten him up in the morning, which is a huge LB 9to me, not him) because I'm not his mom. Been agreeable about the sleep issue instead of being honest.

He is very aware that I have a problem with his sleeping habits. So making another thoughtful request would be beating a dead horse. I pray that he gets a formal reprimand at work for being so chronicly late. But lateness is the least of the stuff that they tolerate there. He has many co-workers who don't deserve the job that they are in while other good hardworking people are unemployed.

THAT was a DJ. Not against my husband so much, though

Bumping because I'm an attention hog

Helping you bump :0

Thanks Chris. I'm not on much today anyway, no crisis du jour or anything. I'm in a LOT of pain from yesterday's gardening though.

Think,

About your H's current belief in mutual sacrifice, and your choice to go down this road and work towards POJA in the future...how about negotiating mutual sacrifice right now, instead?

I ask because it seems like this is the loop you get caught in and realize only afterwards.

He has a deadline, ending in say 60 days. He informs you he'll have to begin working later each week night until that deadline. To me, that's his sacrifice for FS for the marriage. In his view...and you immediately feel sacrificed.



Reasonable and understandable. Like he chose to sacrifice and you didn't have a choice.

You do...negotiate it. "Okay, I hear you're sacrificing for FS for our marriage and we need to temporarily sacrifice you, in return for 60 days, ending on <date>, is that correct?"

First clarify, 'cuz you know I'm guessing at what I don't know.

Theoretical license.

Next, negotiate your half of the sacrifice (which is what I saw you doing here, and in your head)...and offer, "Well, I may agree to sacrificing you temporarily. Depends on if you want me to do so with enthusiasm, love or resentment. Can we talk about some options we have within the mutual sacrifice, so that in 60 days we don't have permanent damage to our marriage?"

Him changing his sleep times, temporarily, just for the duration (what he's asking of you) isn't unreasonable now. See, it's temporary, not forever.

Him giving up his WoW time during the week isn't unreasonable temporarily, just for the duration.

Him giving up the painting hobby isn't unreasonable, temporarily, just for the deadline.

And any and all changes may be well worth it (like markos says) as well as opening up new avenues.

You may be able to negotiate 15-minute calls, twice a day, when you need them most, to hear he's thinking about you, wishing he were with you...or emails...or notes he can leave in your car or in your purse.

And you can do a lot of great self-care in the time apart...and you can keep acting from love, holding yourself to what you agreed to do (and spend a lot of time ensuring you're NOT building resentment behind your back...that can keep you occupied as much as WoW)...

Temporarily.

Not forever. Not every time. Just THIS time...negotiate.

Find your most wanted and post it...then ask for it...

I'm all for the TEMPORARY sleep time adjustment. And you agree to STOP wishing consequences would change your H. Rather, use that brain power to make sure you're not in the way of his consequences.

Consequences change us. They do. Believe it. And you have no control over the change or the natural consequences. Just the logical ones.

Loneliness is a self-LB, too, Think. See, lonely for the company of your partner is important to marriage. Too much and we are using our partners as distractions (like WoW); too little and we're not connected. Up to you to know the difference.

Loneliness is also a signal we aren't paying attention to ourselves, not listening, spending time, really hearing and validating our own stuff. You can really be there for yourself...when you figure out the ways you aren't there for yourself with your H.

Seems like just another ball of string I'm throwing to distract you from those 60 days of change, disruption and emotional abandonment. See? I even question myself.



Him working more hours per week is going to suck. No doubt. How much is partially under your control.

LA

Adding exercise:
This is tough for alot of us who don't have internal exercise motivators. You really gotta wonder what makes those triatheletes get up at 5am to run.
Here is what I have found anyway. If it is fun, it helps you to motivate. If you absolutely hate running, you aren't going to do it. There are sooo many activities and sports that give you a good work out. Try to pick a couple, so you have variety and you have different activities for different seasons.
It doesn't have to be a long time. 20 - 30 minutes of intense activity three times a week. And you really don't need a gym. Depending on what you do, a good pair of jogging shoes, or some cheap weights. Or just the floor. Sometimes I use my TV time to do some stretching and exercises on the floor while watching.
I think the important piece for me, is that it needs to be intense and aerobic. Lifting weights is fine, but won't help me sleep better. Get your heart rate up for 20 minutes or so. Sweat like a pig. Breathe hard (kinda hard. Don't push too much)
And the other piece is that it has to be consistent. You have to do it regularly for the rest of your life.
Finding the time, well maybe have to cut those WoW campaigns short by 30 minutes and get some exercise. Exercise and good sleep help prevent 'dying young'.
Sometimes I use what I already do and make it a workout. I push the mower, sweep the sidewalk and scrub the pool by hand, and do them briskly. Park at the back end of the parking lot and walk further. Take the stairs not the elevator. When my dog was young, just walking him qualified as a workout.
HTH

Wow. thanks for the weigh-in, LA. I truly appreciate it.

Because I saw in your response to someone else about how we make choices based on an expected outcome, and it really got me thinking, Hey. I do that. A lot.

I never thought of POJA sacrifice. It seems so contradictory. And yet . . .

I am in a tremendous amount of physical pain right now (no more hardcore weeding for me!) so I can't write a proper response. But that's just as well, I need to digest more anyway

SDWolf,

He used to do Tae Kwon Do last year. Unfortunately, it is in the evening when I really need him home. And he started doing boy scouts with my son, which ate up one night. However, for Christmas I enthusiastically bought him a one month gift certificate. He hasn't used it yet because he doesn't have time. The classes are 7-8:30 in the evening, and on saturday mornings, and also some weekday classes, so it's kinda limiting what he can do. It's very frustrating for both of us, because he also is not an "outside activity" kind of person. Allergies and weather bother him.

I once dated a triathlete. And what makes them get up at 5 am to run is pure insanity Actually, in the case of the guy I dated, he was starting to experience all the fun of aging in his 20s (HA! HA!) and started running to keep his youth. It worked, I dated him when he was in his later 30s and I was floored when I found out he was so much older than me! Now he is married to a female triathlete, they had an article in the paper a few years back

Think,

why not take the class together? That way you can get in some UA time together getting a RC need filled, and excercise all at the same time.....

Just a thought

"because he also is not an "outside activity" kind of person. Allergies and weather bother him." Yup, goes with being a software dev/gamer/lead figure painter etc. Does he quote Monty Python?

Is the gift cert. for TKD? I know how hard it is to get to my martial arts class in the evenings. I've already bailed on going today....

Maybe you 'need' him to go to TKD. The health and mood, and sleep benefits out weigh the time? Maybe your son can go too? I'd rather you say you will try to get that time back by reducing WoW time. But I know what that could be like.

I did Dungeons and Dragons back before all this online stuff was even a dream. In college I had to give it up because I was staying up too late and not getting things done. I hate to say it but it can be addictive. I know WoW addicts and Everquest (they call it Ever-crack). In my senior year, I got with some D&D friends and we played but set strict rules on when and for how long.

And yes I truly believe that ongoing exercise makes you younger. I know an 82 year old man who can put me to shame in the fitness department.

SDWolf,

Yep. Monty Python all the way.

I have no interest in TKD. I am totally OK with some of our evening time (1 or 2 nights a week) going toward TKD time.

He would probably fall into the category of addicted gamer. Used to play EQ, now WOW. I'm ok with a little, but not when it interferes so much with life. On top of that his best D&D buddy lives ACROSS THE STREET!!!!! At least when he plays he's only across the street. But sometimes it feels like he's and addict and his pusher lives across the street He's always trying to get my husband into some new "hobby". Oh well, it could be golf, or hunting, or drinking. I should count my lucky stars

Yes, the gift certificate was for TKD where he was going before.

FYI, I was REALLY sick last night and this morning. Fever, chills, headache, the works. Still feeling very weak and crappy this afternoon, but wanted to check in.

Markos, I took this from LoveNYC�s thread because I wanted to discuss it further, but didn�t want to threadjack.

I think this is my husband�s stumbling block with the POJA. (Granted, he hasn�t spent time studying it like I have, he just read the summary of it on Harley�s site back in the summer.)

The policy is that neither of us does anything that we both don�t agree to. Which is, in essence, sacrifice, which leads to resentment, which kills marriages. At least this is how HE interprets it.

From what I can tell, �being in love� is NOT a good enough trade-off for him. Mutual compatibility is something he wants, but only if he doesn�t have to give up the things that bother me.

Thinkin, those are his thoughts, feelings, beliefs to own. What he may not be ope to one day could totally change in a week or month. You're doing what you need to do, working your plan. If you're still feeling sick, it's okay to take a little break, nurse yourself back to health first, like that expression HALTS - stop and take care of yourself when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, or sick. You had mentioned something similar before, that you put your physical needs aside, but it's okay to see to your physical needs before trying to take care of others.

Like when you had a crying newborn, you don't say, okay, I'll hold it in and go to the bathroom later. You did what you need to first, and then came back for her. Or got your glass of water, and then took it with you and the baby to the rocking chair to nurse.

That sucks. He's competing with you & your H's UA time.

I wonder how his wife feels about this (if he's married....)

He's married, they have two kids about the ages of ours. She keeps him on a pretty tight leash, which is to say that she decideds what he will or won't do on any given weekend, whether he realizes it or not. Also, she is into gaming too, and stays up late at night playing Everquest with him. My husband thinks that's what WE should do, because that's what THEY do :p

Actually, it's not as bad as it could be with him eating into our time. He just keeps my DH "hooked". Most of his other gaming buddies have moved on with their lives, and have literally moved away, except for this guy and a small handful of others. But if it weren't for the two of them, the others wouldn't be into it.

Good thoughts to remember NED. Just makes working together as a team more of a challenge.

I think that's where I struggle the most. Knowing that for a time, and maybe for a long time, that I will have to do this MB thing, and this alanon thing too for that matter, alone, without him. What's the point of being married? I could have done this stuff alone without being married, you know? But not only do I have to do this stuff, I also have the added responsibilities of marriage, and the feeling that I'm carrying the heavier end of the yoke most of the time.

That said, he was great yesterday. I didn't get out of bed until 2 pm, while he had childcare duty. I didn't even have it that good the day after I had my baby (we had #3 at home).