What else could you have done instead to get through to him and have the positive results you are working toward now?

Could you let us know what positive results would look like in your marriage?

I think I'd have the same question for Mark, too. What would it have taken short of an affair for your wife to communicate to you the dire straights your marriage was in? What would have motivated you back then to make the changes necessary?

Could you describe your marriage issues and why you characterize it as being in dire straights?


I honestly believe the only thing that would possibly motivate my husband to change is losing me and having to actively win me back. Right now, he has my caring love, but not my feelings of romantic love, and he is apparently OK with that because he has stated that he is not willing to change in order for me to feel more in love with him.




What specific changes do you want your husband to make. From your other posts I came up with some, correct and add to these:

1. Give up the Porn
2. Give up the gaming
3. Develop smoother, better bedroom moves to initiate sex
4. Talk about the church sermon for two hours a week
5. Go to AA with you
6. Become a more religios/spiritual person, inside.
7. Talk on a deeper level with you as a good girlfriend would
8. Shave off his beard and have better personal higene
9. Work out and get in better shape to attract you more

Is there more you want to change in him? (OR less?)

I am actually curious about Mark's response to this as I really don't know what would have motivated my husband. I did make requests to no avail. I was not willing to leave or threaten divorce...kinda ironic considering what I apparently WAS willing to do.

Acquaintances who don't know our situation often inquire about how I convinced my husband to go to church or take the kids on a bike ride. It would almost be amusing if it wasn't so darn sad.

Over in SAA they always say women don't leave unless there is an affair and they may be right but I don't know that they don't think about it.

Hi Think!

Glad to see you're taking another look @ things.

I am sending positive vibes your way.

Mark, you asked me about how I define love. I think the best definition is the best known, found in 1 Corinthians:


I think the best definition for married love comes from Ephesians, chapter 5


At first blush this passage seems to describe the mutual self-sacrifice that Dr. H is so fervently against. However, I do not believe that is the full intent of this passage.
Notice it does not say, �Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over TO her to sanctify her.� It says, �Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over FOR her to sanctify her.� I personally believe this goes for both husbands and wives. We do not hand ourselves over TO another person so much as we hand ourselves over FOR our spouse.

The sacrifice that is called for in marriage is a sacrifice of our single, independent identity in favor of a unified identity. We sacrifice independence for the interdependence of two whole human beings. We hand ourselves over to interdependence.

However, interdependence can become unhealthy co-dependence if one or both people are trying to fill in the gaps of the other, or if one is overfunctioning and the other is underfunctioning. I personally believe that in that case, it is healthier to go from co-dependence to independence, and then from independence to a healthy interdependence that is maintained.

I would define romantic love as the feelings that can be triggered by either healthy interdependence or sometimes unhealthy codependence.

I do not believe healthy interdependence can be achieved without first having independence as a separate whole human being, but I do believe that independence can be found within the bounds of marriage, and that it starts with self-acceptance. It is only when I know who I am and accept who I am that I can share myself honestly with another human being. Self-awareness and self-acceptance, I believe, are essential to the honesty that a healthy marriage requires. The more self-aware and self-accepting I am, the more capable I am of truly using the POJA, which is the key tool in creating mutual and lasting compatibility. Conversely, the less self-aware and self-accepting I am, the less likely I will be able to have the honesty required to use the POJA effectively. I will find myself in the position of having to chronically re-POJA, which would be incredibly draining for my spouse.

That's one drawback I see with the MB principles, (and I'm aware that all situations are unique and have different results using the MB principles)...in your situation, you have a husband, who's familiar with the MB principles, yet cannot give up his IB...yet you continue to give him your caring love...so he gets his IB that he loves and his need for SF are met by you...all along you are adding another brick to the resentment wall...

What's he doing to safeguard the marriage?...sure you'd never cheat, but that's one thing to say it and yet another totally when you are in a situation that's gotten out of hand...and that can happen without you even realizing it...Therefore, you really have to not only work at your marriage, stay motivated and continue to set an example, but you also have to safeguard yourself and your marriage...(if that makes sense)...I feel like I'm in the same boat...

My top EN's are not being met from my wife...SF and Affection...we are working on this, but it's a slow process...In doing so, my wife is encouraging me to have RC with friends, like I used to...I agree with her, that I need to, but I'd rather spend what RC I could with friends with her...My RC with friends I like doing is having a few beers, bowling, playing pool or darts and watching sporting events at a local pub...My wife likes those things too, BUT she knows she's lacking in satisfying my SF and affection needs, yet she's encouraging me to RC with friends?

That's not very smart on her end and our therapist agrees, yes my wife is trusting of me, because by nature, I'm very shy...but still I have to safeguard myself by limiting my RC with friends to Mondays or Tuesdays when the pubs are not busy and I only go out with married men from Church that I can trust...but still, all it would take is for me to catch one woman's eye and she start a friendly, seemingly casual conversation. And with my EN's not being met, it would take a man with morals of stone to not enjoy and want the attention...

I'm a man of faith and I do love my wife and family and would never cheat, but I'd rather RC with friends with my top EN's fully met...but the wife shouldn't encourage me to RC with friends, when she's lacking her in duties as a wife at home...I know she has good intentions, but she really isn't thinking this through.

I don't know about that. I have several female friends who have left their alcoholic husbands, and there was no affair partner to run to. And they have been divorced for several years, no dating relationships, either.

We have a suggestion in my alanon community of no new relationship for at least a year after the old relationship ends, whether it's a marriage or just another romantic relationship. So that would probably be why no affair partner in those situations.

HEY!!!!! I've been thinking about you. How is it going?

TTT, here is what DR Harley said about it:

Next time, send me an email

Things are going really well. We're doing our Lessons & doing our UA time. My H is really into MB. He's even speaking in MB terms LOL!

Mr.A....you mention your wife's trusting you to not cheat on her and her encouraging you to go do RC w/o her....this reminds me of my situation LOL! Mine is also like this and has encouraged it many times....of course he figures if I engage in my own IB it will get him off the hook to be my life partner for primary UA and fulfilling my EN's....but he wants me to meet SF for him of course and all is just peachy!

Like you I realize how dangerous this all is....since I am struggling as it is even getting a job or going back to school will be potential places I will meet other men now and since I am so lonely this could be a issue for me....but in my case I have to do this....per Dr.H's advice for my situation....getting leverage in the marriage is what I am lacking....once I have that leverage perhaps my H will take my complaints seriously and pay attention by changing course...that is basically his recommendation to me.

I would not characterize my own marriage as being in "dire" straights. Just not ideal. Howeve, since both Mark and Sunny come from situations involving an affair in which the wife was unhappy, I would characterize those as pretty dire. I'm hoping I can prevent my own marriage from geting to that point.

Positive results would be both my husband and I having feelings of romantic love. I think it is great that my husband now has those sorts of feelings. But I think long term it would be best for me to have those feelings too.

I do have a "list" that I made about a year ago. It is not as specific as yours. And the list is for me as well as him. Actually, it is a list for our marriage. How he chooses to meet the things on those list are up to him to work out, as long as they are mutually agreeable. I will have to hunt it down and share it. (I can do that later this evening).

To me this doesn't sound like a drawback of MB Principles. It sounds like MB Principles being partially applied. Whena person with a bacterial infection takes less than the recommended dose of their antibiotics, chances are their infection will not be cured, and in some cases it may even become more infectious.

I know way too much about bacterial infections for my own taste. See my musings thread at various points for details, if you don't have them already...

Chris, I don't think I have your email address.

ML, the women I know both drew their line in the sand. One is my sponsor, and I totally trust that she is being honest in saying there was no one else. He brought drugs into the house. She kicked him out. In the case of the other woman I know, it was HER husband who was cheating, and since he was already a deadbeat, she didn't fight to save the marriage.

i know other divorced people who most definitely were leaving for something, anything, better, whether it was there in person already or not.

TTT, I don't doubt that for a minute, truly! But those are the rare, rare exeptions. I can count those cases on 2 fingers in the 9 years I have been here. All the others have been affairs. Women rarely even leave for abuse.

Mr. Anderson (still love that name, as a Matrix fan)

I keep my involvement at church to things involving mostly women: I just joined a mom's spirituality group that meets regularly, and I am involved with our bible school program. There are a few men involved with that, but I don't really interact with them, plus their wives are usually there too. And it's all women who are involved with the planning.

I do know some men through alanon, but most of them are either REALLY unhealthy and very easy to avoid, or are my dad's age. Most are married. I have learned that there are some groups where there a guys who troll for women, but I avoid those groups.

ML, I also know several women, myself included, who left their marriages because the marriage was broken and there was not an affair involved in any way.

For me, the article Dr. H wrote about "Why Women Leave Men" summed it up much more accurately for my own situation and those of the other women I referred to above. That's not to say that affairs don't happen and that people don't lie about them, and that they're not frequently the underlying cause. I'm just saying that in my experience it's not even 1/2 of the people I personally know.

Now, would those marriages been salvageable if both parties had known about, and applied, MB principles? Probably most of them. Some were so horribly abusive that I'd not even want them to be. In my 1st marriage, my H wouldn't even comply with "normal" MC and the cooperation and compromise for that, so I know he would have rejected MB principles, and I had nowhere near enough caring left for him to try and apply them one-sided.

And I'm rambling, so I'll stop.

ML, I am apparently a magnet for exceptions

Still, the exception does not disprove the rule. I think Harley is right on target most of the time.

And Mr. A, although my husband is familiar with the concepts, he doesn't agree with them.

I can appreciate that. Just look how I argued with them back when I first got here . . . and I came with an open mind!

I agree. Sure there are exceptions. Heck, I know several people who have been in affair marriages for years and they are the exception for sure.