Thanks M, that was extremely helpful!

I disagree with you on the withdrawl thing Markos. At least for me, being in withdrawl was a VERY conscious choice that I fed, and still feed when I'm not vigilant. It was not a subconscious reaction for me (although I do believe that it can be for most people).

For me, withdrawl was a conscious choice to protect myself from the person who disappointed me time and again by no longer giving him the chance.

Problem was that the side effects of withdrawl, of being married on a piece of paper but not in my heart, were worse than the disappointment.

For my husband, withdrawl seems to be a reaction, but for me, it was most definitely a choice.

And yes, you CAN "just decide" not to be in withdrawl. That's what MB has challenged me to do. That's what MB is all about, making conscious decision in favor of the marriage. A lot of first time posters who come to this forum are in withdrawl married to spouses in withdrawl, looking for us to justify ending their marriages. I was one of them when I found this site. I was DEEP in withdrawl. I was a wayward wife just waiting to happen. Luckily I have boundaries (also a decision). But I lived every day justifying my LB behaviors, especially my IB. I lived every day feeding my withdrawl and actively preventing myself from feeling anything for my husband, even when he was not being an angry SOB. There have been times when I have consciously prevented him from meeting my EN out of spite.

I was miserable. So I made a change. I chose happiness. I AM responsible for my own happiness, regardless of what the MB lingo teaches us. My husband is not . . . I can be happy no matter what he choose to do or not do, my happiness is not dependant on him one iota. He can choose to be a part of my happiness, or he can choose to sit on the sidelines and lose me. But we have both been fence-sitting for our entire relationship and marriage.

I have read Mark's story, and it is inspiring.


I don't understand the riskiness? Do you mean that if I have that attitude, then it will result in IB?

I have every reason to believe that my husband probably WILL participate in the planning of UA. But based on past experience, I don't think he will follow through. We've been down that road MANY MANY times (Dave Ramsey Financial Peace comes to mind). My husband has GREAT INTENTIONS, and I think I posted a few pages back about my opinion of good intentions

He seems unwilling to translate his intentions into actions when the going gets tough. I suppose this is a DJ, but I mean it in all sincerity. To be fair, I have the same problem. I suck a followthrough, which is probably why I married a man who sucks at it and thus can't hold me accountable I'm choosing to change that, to change my actions. But it's not my job to educate him about changing his actions. Maybe it's my job to motivate him though.

I'm with think. I am consciously choosing to remain in withdrawal to protect myself. I don't trust my wife to meet my needs or to avoid LBs. So I pull away. Makes it very hard for her to make love bank deposits. I get a big payoff from seeing to it that her needs do not get met, as payback for all the years when mine were not. It is a self-destructive payoff. Less than the payoff from having a fulfilling marriage and getting my needs met. But a payoff nonetheless. I cold make a conscious choice to go back into conflict. And negotiate for my needs to get met.

Withdrawal can certainly be a conscious choice.

"The state of withdrawl doesn't usually last very long."

That may be true, but after repeated attempts (albiet pre-MB) of both me and my husband dipping our feet back into the pool of conflict with no major postive forward motion, the state of withdrawl is beginning to look pretty permanent to both of us.

I think withdrawl as a "reactionary" state is definitely short-lived. But withdrawl as a chosen state can go on as long as the person choosing it keeps choosing it, and that can be a very long time. If I stay in withdrawl, I may very well choose my way into divorce. That is certainly where I was headed back before I found MB.

Markos, I've read both of those articles, and I think they are a bit simplistic. Harley seems to be working under the assumption that people are always reactionary creatures (which I think is true for 98% of the population 98% of the time.) But for people lving very consciously and intentionally, the formula doesn't always work.

Thinking,

The Resolving Conflicts Over Friends & Relatives section of the Love Busters book gives a good example which I think may apply to your intended approach on the UA "I'll go whether he does or not." That choice amounts to Independent Behavior & it will withdraw Love Bank Units. Granted he'd be doing that too by planning UA with you and then blowing it off. Do you have sessions lined up with Dr. H?

As for the comments about Withdrawl - heck yeah my DH decided to do that mess on purpose, just like he decided to stop doing it shortly thereafter. I believe it can be instinctual / refelxive but it's mostly a conscious choice ie "I am not going to communicate with you unless I have to, and I'm not going to spend time alone with you."

Is it really IB if my spouse is OK with it?

For example, my spouse comes home after a hard day, he's angry and frustrated. After the kids are in bed it's time for UA time and he's not "in the mood" for planned UA time and tells me it's OK if I want to go out for the evening to a meeting or walmart or something. Is that really IB? What is mroe of a lovebuster, forcing us to do UA that he doesn't want, making him feel guilty over not engaging in planned UA time, or going off and doing my own thing after he suggests it to "get out of" our planned UA time?

No, I don't have sessions line up. Need to put it in the budget first, and that won't happen until April.

I guess if your spouse enthusiastically agrees, then it is not IB...but the thing is - if you are both like "screw it" (when it comes to the marriage) and you both enthusiastically agree to NOT doing UA...what then?

"Screw it" is exactly the phrase sometimes We're both lazy a lot of the time, both undisciplined. I want to change that, he sees no need because he's OK with the way things are, and having things better is not a motivation for him. He'd rather mediocre, comfortable, not requiring change or spiritual growth than to attempt to have a GREAT marriage, which would require going way outside the comfort zone. Quite frankly I feel the same way a lot of the time, which is probably why we've stay married this long! "Good enough" was for a long time.

Well, just because he doesn't want to become more disciplined doesn't mean I don't get to. In fact, for me it's a given. I have started with going to meetings, working my steps, calling my sponsor, now adding a new dimension with the eating disorder. Forming new habits.

I think that most "normal" people would see all this as a good thing, as me doing what I need to do to no longer be depressed and angry all the time. My husband couldn't stand me when I was like that. "I don't care what you do, just get help and stop being this way!" Now that I'm actually DOING something, instead of being supportive, he seems very threatened by it.

Thinkin, Chris, I wish you both well with the UA.

I started with going out not just the two of us every time, but with other folks that H was nice to me around. Because at first, we bickered a lot, and we had to get out of that habit. Even something like line dancing, where we weren't so much talking with others, as we were talking with one another in a "safe" environment. Some folks aren't mean when there are lots of folks close by. I did most of the planning, and H knew he was welcome to throw in ideas, but that there was no pressure. I saw this was what his buddy did, planned something he and H would like, and then called him with the date and time. So this was already something my H liked, being invited to something already set up. There are lots of organized things where we live where all you have to do is how up - music festivals, home shows, auto shows, the thing where the fighter jets come to town and do a show, the circus, franchise fairs, film festivals, food festivals, renaissance fairs. Lots of stuff the kids came with us, but they could do their own thing, like walking on the boardwalk, and the kids lagged behind, so we could talk. Lots of stuff for FC time, too. Best wishes with it!

My husband likes road trips. And I also enjoy them. With 3 kids 6, 4 and 1, it is hard to do anything like you described and have it be relaxing for both of us (one of us is usually in anxiety mode, if not both). But I really miss our drives together. Now that the weather is getting warmer I hope we can do more things like that. I'm totally an outdoor person. Husband not so much because of allergies. GRRRRRR . . . there I go with the "Yes Buts". Need to go read Page 200 of ODAT again

Thinkin, my kids are 14 and 8. so yes, it was way different when they were little. Do you have a reliable sitter? One of the neighborhood kids would babysit our kids for $5 an hour, every Saturday night, what a bargain! Where there's a will, there's a way, right? What do you have locally?

I have horrible allergies, too, so I love your idea with the driving. Has he tried something like Claritin daily?

Yes, we have lots of family nearby, it's just becoming more scheduled and less spontaneous that we need to work on

Oh, that's great!

I know you talked about letting go of expectations, and that is a great thing, applies to many situations. I think I've mentioned before that in some areas I had a hard time figuring out how to find the balance between my Alanon program and MB, and for me SF was one of them. I didn't have an aversion, I still had a willingness to try for SF even when it was consistently unfulfilling and even painful, because I was reaching out for any connection I could get. Like that expression a soggy potato chip is better than no potato chip.

When I read the Overcoming Aversion articles, it became clear to me, anticipation of SF *is* expectations, good expectations. It takes consistency and care. The soggy potato chip thing may be fine for many other things. Like mopping the floor halfway is better than no mopping it at all. But I realized that this isn't for SF, something so special and intimate. For me the growth experience came from becoming willing to wait for the attitude shift that signaled a different kind of experience.

I encourage you to give a shout out to Telly and Bubbles, they are great with the BC options. Telly is Catholic and teaches natural family planning at her church.

Think,

You need to become more intentional rather than just more scheduled.

UA time can never contain talks about the relationship. If he doesn't want to talk about the relationship and you talk about the relationship one time while supposedly spending time together as UA time, UA time will always carry the notion of talking about the relationship.

Scheduling with kids in the home is important. Making the most of the time available is more important.

I know this seems forced right now, but believe me, once he starts to enjoy spending time with you more than anything else, it gets to be almost effortless.

Pick a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, set up a sitter, get in the car and drive...East/West/North/South...Spend about a third of your allotted time driving; find something interesting to stop and check out. Find some off track diner, drive in or dive (something without a nationally recognized logo on it) and have something to eat. Might be good, might be great, might be bad, might be the worst thing you've ever eaten...Shared experience...

On the way home, stop at the store down the street and take home ice cream to share with the kids.

You get a break from the kids, you get to share an experience together and you get to come home to the reason for all the hard work...

One hour...two...4...the length of time you have isn't what matters. enjoying just being together matters most and coming home to see the kids reminds both of you why you even bother.

Mark

I'm very familiar with NFP. That's how we were able to achieve PG the first time, and also how I knew that we would probably get PG the second time, and why I know that the condom failed for #3

It is very validating to hear what you are saying about SF. It is in a category all it's own I guess. I have read a lot on this forum (pre-posting days) that I should be meeting my DH's needs first, including SF, BEFORE expecting him to start meeting my EN. I would be 100% willing to do this with everything except SF. For SF, I want to be 100% "there" or not at all. Some may disagree with this. But I know from years of experience that this is exactly where my aversion comes from. It's not sex itself that I'm avers to,. it's having to experience sex witohut anything except my body. On top of that, I am not arroused easily with just the physcial foreplay. I need about 2 hours of good solid conversation about philosophy, life, religion, psuchology, etc before I am primed enough to respond to a sxual advance. It's just eh way I'm wired, and I don't really want to change that just so I can meet my husband's need for sex. It's gotten to the point that even HE doesn't want sex that often because he knows that I'm only doing out of duty, that I'm having to "work" at it, that I'm trying to practice "feelings following actions."

Truth be told: It's hella hard to engage in sex on the "feelings follow actions" basis. The man will sense you are not into it because you'll be absolutely disgusted the entire time. Eventually, it will turn him off.

We do this already. Just not enough. And he seems to think that a couple of hours after months of doing nothing together will jumpstart my sex drive. I want to be friends with him again, without any expectation of sex from me. And every time we spend time togehter, that's what he seems to think will happen. I dated guys like that in high school and they got dumped, fast.

I make it a point not to talk relationship stuff with him unless he brings it up, or unless we have an immediate conflict to be resolved. That is one of those MB "things" that I "got" right away!

I wish that he would drop the expectation for sex like I've dropped talking about the relationship.