You can ignore this....

I think your religion is squelching your ability to have a close marriage. I bet your husband would use condoms if it means more sex for him. I never tried the pill. I started having sex when single at age 27 and got a tubal at age 30. I wanted a life without bearing or raising kids. =I made love with only three guys. LTR.

Let your husband get a vasectomy! It is a blessing! He is caring to do it. He is the leader of the family and wants no more kids. If that is not Gods voice then you are listening to the wrong religious leaders.

About sex, I too use fantasy a little to "push myself over the edge". Most women do. It is fine to do this and is not a sin. It does not need to get in the way of true lovemaking with our husbands or intimacy. Having great orgasms can really help us and help the marriage. But if you are having to blank out ALL of sex than that could be a problem you can work out with a good counselor...

I wonder why you feel your religion does not approve of a tiny bit of mental fantasy in the bedroom. God gave us a mind! Your pastor is not in the bedroom with you. Nor will he help pay for or raise more children. A few minutes of fantasy to put you in the moment with your husband is fine. I do not know a woman that does not do this. Unless you cannot stand to even make love at all with this husband.

If your husband does not want any more kids, for you to risk pregnancy by having sex and using no birth control IS A SIN FOR YOU. Does your religion come before what your husband wants? Does your religion take a priority position ABOVE your husband's needs and desires? (yes it does I read what you said) Not loving and respecting your husband and helping fill his needs IS A SIN.

How does your husband feel about the lack of effective birth control? How does he feel about having sex only once a month? His sex life is best at his age now, it will not improve as he ages. His sex life is being wasted. I know you do not understand this. He needs more sex but you dont want it.

I think your husband is a GIVER but you do not see that nor appreciate it.

1. He loves you enough to let you stay home while he works his butt off for the family

2. He lives with you and love you even as you embrace your "religion" even though the religion dictates you reject birth control, risking pregnancy even though he wants no more kids.

3. He lives with sex once a month as YOU ALLOW IT.

4. He accepts you even though you are not attracted to him.

5. He will get a vasectomy for the good of you and the family. Any man who would take this sacrifice on is good in my book.

6. I am sure if you made a list, this man would be supremely giving. Make us a list of what he gives to you and the family and those others around him.

7. What needs of yours does your husband NOT FILL??

not only do I have a reluctant spouse (who is probably a �dry drunk,� i.e., doesn�t drink but isn�t emotionally or spiritually sober,

What do you mean by this????

What would you want or expect from a man, a husband, religion wise?

1. Go to church?
2. Abstain from sex?
3. Procreate freely and endlessly as the church teaches?
4. Become a deacon in the church?
5. Teach sunday school?
6. Become a pastor?
7. Sing in the choir?
8. Sit next to you in church so others can see him?
9. Do what the church wants him to do?
10. Is he a sinner...a failure....a dissapointment in your eyes because he does not buy the church doctrine about abstinince from sex, quiverfull of children, and instead believes and trusts in God on his own?
11. Would you be more sexually attracted to him if he followed your churches doctrine like a priest would?

am apprently VERY fertile, so now I'm pretty much afraid to have sex at all because birth control failed two times

Please let this man bless your family and have the vasectomy. It is the solution.

(because it would mean he�d have to give up the things that �give his life meaning�).

Please list these things he would have to give up.

I found Alanon and MB around the same time and have been working the 12 Steps,

These are good, very good groups. I would like to ask,,,I am sure I missed this...why you are in this group. Does it have to do with your husband? If so..was he or is he alcoholic or a drug addict? What does he feel is the reason you are in these groups? Does he know you are in the groups complaining about him? Because he is not HOLY enough for you you have to go to groups and complain?

I realize now that agreeing to marry my husband and stuffing my feelings for all these years is perhaps the most unloving and dishonest thing I could ever do to any human being, and I am deeply sad and remorseful.

No, I think that this is not the most unloving and dishonest thing....it is what you are doing to the man NOW that is terrible.

I have this feeling you have been JUDGING your husband all these years thinking he is not as HOLY as you are for some reason. This is the bad thing. You should accept his very giving offer of a vasectomy and notice all the other ways he loves you. What is so bad about him? Why are you going to all the church and alanon meetings? Do you go there and complain and vent about your "corrupt/non religious husband?

husbands who came to sobriety

So you are giving him a chance to "get sober"...

What is your definition of "coming to sobriety" how it applies to your husband?

You say he does not drink alcohol. You say he needs more "religion" to make you happy. What kind of sobriety are you talking about here?

I want POJA. But my relgious faith IS more important than my marriage. It is the most important thing in my life. My relationship with God trumps my relationship with God, because putting anything else first is idolatry.

I see what happened here. Sorry i missed this. YOU DO PUT THE CHURCH ABOVE YOUR MARRIAGE.

You got a husband who goes to church with you...but this is not enough for you. You got a loving husband..... but this is not enough for you.

You got a husband who only drinks twice a year...but yet this is not enough for you and you have to lable him a DRY DRUNK.

Do you have male friends you admire as MEN OF GOD who you like thier characteristics better than your husband's?

Are there qualities in men you see in the church that you wish your husband had?

I am going to take a stab at this. I believe what you focus on will change your viewpoint about your husband. You are busy in the ALANON groups complaining about your husband and focusing on how unholy he is. In church and with your church friends you also are busy focusing on what your husband lacks in the way of religion.

This is the whole problem. If you were to quit church for a few weeks and quit the alanon groups, you would have a lot more time to spend on your marriage and enjoying time with your husband at home. Yet you want all the attention and drama these groups tend to give you. The downside of these groups is it eats up the 15 hours a week you should be home spending with your husband. Or doing activities you both need to get out and do. Dancing? Instead find out something he likes. Most men do not love dancing.

Who watches the kids while you are out at all your nightly groups? Him I suppose. You could care less since he is not holy enough for you. What are the physical features he has that you hate? These can sometimes be changed.

I believe you are rewriting history to suit yourself as you immerse yourself in these addiction groups AS IF YOUR HUSBAND IS AN ADDICT!

Lonely??? Then learn to form a relationship with your own husband. That is what husbands are put on this earth for.

I want to ask this too...I hate to ask it. Is there a male friend or one man that you see a lot that you are getting a small crush on? Is there a man in the groups or in the church that you like all his qualities?


Do you fantasize about some men at church or alanon, or some man you admire, and are starting to get attracted to, when you are with your husband? In bed with your husband too?

When the Bible says to "be a cheerful giver", that doesn't mean to only give when it makes you feel good. It means to work on your attitude so you feel cheerful about giving.

Same thing with your actions to meet the necessities of a complete marriage. Being enthusiastic about SF isn't just for you; most husbands aren't that interested in sex with an unenthusiastic wife, because that lacks the FULFILLMENT component of SF.

Think, my heart is heavy right now, and even though I don't have much time, I did want to say one thing.

I am not sure of all that you believe, but I believe that the most important thing in life and eternity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The MOST important. Now, if my H said he wanted to change churches...I'm there. If he said he wanted to go to the "traditional" service instead of the contemporary...I'm there. Even if he said let's change denominations...I'm there. But if he ever said, "Choose between me and your relationship with Jesus Christ".....I choose Jesus. Notice I said jesus, not dogma, not "religion." But Jesus. So I can understand how your faith and your reasons for being reticent about SF play out. I do not have a conviction against BC. But I do have many friends who have a problem with the pill but who feel okay faith-wise with a condom. BTW, the pill made me crazy after I had my 2 kids. That's why I had a tubal. But I will not tread on the idea of your faith because I understnad it being an integral part of your life.

There is a verse, Col. 3:17, that says "Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Fathr through him." I have applied that to my marriage before. Everything I do in my marriage, everything I do for H, do it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. It made a big difference in my attitude, which in turn made a big difference in my "want to." Because we can give because we are supposed to for awhile, but sooner or later, if we can't start giving because we want to.....I don't see how anyone who isn't superhuman can do that forever.

Well, that's all I wanted to say for now. Gotta go herd wild children.

Bubbles,

I'm pretty sure Think attends Alanon because of FOO stuff and not because her H is a drinker or a dry drunk.

Bubbles and Luri,

I'm also not certain this is a religious problem for the most part.



Think,

I'd like to go down this path a bit if it's OK.
Part of the problem in making improvements when you don't own the property is that you get none of the benefits of the improvements when you're done and if you make real improvements the value of the property increases and you end up paying more.

Paint, curtains, new carpet are pretty much minimal maintenance things for most houses. Carpet can make a huge improvement but unless the sub-floor will last another generation nothing has really been fixed at all.

Improvements might be all new landscaping, new siding, new windows, a new kitchen.

We have this problem with painting stuff at our house. It's one of the places my wife can accomplish IB like almost no other place. Couple argue of colors or paint textures. Some might disagree on whether or not to paint the trim and other wood work in the room.

Now my wife waits until I am gone for a day and paints the living room. She paints the walls without regard to whether there are places that need to be fixed first or she fixes them haphazardly and the result looks to me not like an improvement but like the Beverly Hillbillies have moved into my house or she hired Larry and his brothers Darryl to do the job.

I could talk a lot about the IB aspect of this whole thing but my point is that when you paint and clean you aren't really making actual repairs. Painting the kitchen might help but if the sink leaks, the cabinets are falling apart and the the electrical stuff all needs an upgrade, renters aren't likely to do 35 thousand in upgrades to a place they are renting. If they do knowing that they will have none of the benefit and with no commitment to remain there to at least get the small benefit of using the improved property it really isn't likely to happen.

I'm not talking about paint and curtains. I'm talking about new plumbing, new wiring, new floor-plan, new kitchen and making all of these things what you want and not just what some landlord is willing to provide.

I'm not talking about changing colors. I'm talking about fixing the foundation so the house doesn't fall down. Not new filters for the furnace but a new furnace with all new ducts so the house stays warm and doesn't cost so much to heat. I'm referring to The kind of changes that would make the house YOURS instead of the previous owners'. Making those kind of improvements when you have no ownership is foolish and usually results in costing you more. It is lots more than just your time that is wasted.

Part of becoming a buyer has to do with owning our own stuff to begin with. We tend to try to fix stuff we don't have any ownership in. If I try to improve my house by changing the landscaping in my neighbor's yard, I'm likely to do nothing more than start a back-fence war.

Then we tend to try to make things look better without actually making any tough and lasting changes. I am willing to mow the lawn or paint the house but the siding still needs to be replaced and the overgrown bushes still need to be cut out and replaced with new ones.

What I am trying to get you to see is that the sacrifice of the past was in part the result of not doing the kind of things buyers do but acting as a renter might act. The REAL repairs, the things that actually make the house better and not just a different color require acting from a position of ownership because lasting changes only happen where you plan on staying.

A marriage isn't the color of the walls that can be changed every few years and if you decide you don't like it any more you can change it on a whim. A marriage is what some call the bones of the house. It is the foundation, the framing, the plumbing and electrical stuff. It is the stuff that makes the house a house. Until the house is up to code, no amount of paint and carpet can make it a home.

When the roof leaks you have to fix it if you are the owner, even if you have a renter living there.


Ideally it gets to a point where it is give and get at the same time, Think. That is what POJA does for a marriage. Once you begin to realize that everything you do either adds to the relationship or takes from the relationship and start doing only things that add to it you start to reap the benefits of full ownership. You return on investment is not based on having a roof this month but on building equity for the future.

When POJA starts to work in a relationship it can look a lot like magic or an intervention my the Hand of God. Learning to stop expecting our spouse to sacrifice in exchange for our own sacrifice changes the whole feel of the marriage. If when I give, I know I and also getting, not two days from now, not ten years from now, not five minutes from now but when I give because I am giving and my spouse is giving and we are both getting what we need at the same time, it makes my giving not a sacrifice of any kind but actually a huge benefit to my own happiness.

If Care is the engine, then Protection is the transmission. No matter how big or how powerful the engine is, unless the transmission can get the power on the pavement the car just sits motionless.

And if Care and Protection are the motor and transmission, then PORH honesty becomes the rest of the drive line for the car. But POJA is like the suspension which control how the tires and the power from the engine interact with the road. It is the part than absorbs the impact of bumps and allows the weight to transfer from one tire to another as the car steers around potholes. When you have the motor and transmission and tires and suspension all working together like they should, the driver can point the car and go where he wants it to go. If any part is not working, the car becomes a trailer and needs to be towed or it becomes a box and needs to be carried from place to place.

And the key is to make sure YOUR side of the car is working properly. If you're into auto racing I have a pit crew analogy I can give you for this...

Mark

Think,

Let me add this.

When we are renters, we are always dreaming of becoming buyers and taking ownership. If what we are renting is not what we want from life we are always looking for that perfect deal. In marriage this means we are focused not on the relationship we have but on some notion we have of what might be a better deal for us.

But just like when we are renting a house, seldom do we decide to move out of one place and look for another place to live. What we end up doing is finding that better deal (at least we think it is a better deal) and THEN acting on breaking our lease. So for a marriage this means we don't actually make a move to divorce until we already have the next relationship to move on to set up and ready to go.

Talking about an affair here, Think.

This is what the renter's mindset leads to in marriage. It allows us to always be looking and never be settled. It keeps us from acting like a buyer because it is the looking for what we don't have that keeps us from buying in to begin with.

Someplace in my Musings thread I have a story about wishing for more and missing the miracle. Look for it if you haven't read it or read it again if you have.

I'll also tell you that the difference between a renter and buyer often boils down to paying what is owed and little beyond that. For a renter, if I become dissatisfied with what I am paying for, I begin to withhold payment until I am getting what I want. This of course is a violation of most leases and the landlord does have the option to have me evicted rather than addressing my complaints. So renter holds in reserve the right to stop doing what was agreed upon as leverage to gain even more than what was entered into with the lease.

But as an owner, I have not just benefits not afforded to the renter I have additional commitments as well. If my house needs to be fixed, I can't stop paying for it because it isn't the bank's job to fix my house. It is up to me to fix it.

Mark

Mark, your analogies ar dizzying

You've got a gift! Will respond when I have time.

I should print this out and put it on my bathroom mirror.

I believe the full verse is "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7). The Revised Standard Version has "not reluctantly or under compulsion."

One of my passions is Christian stewardship. And one of the things I have learned through my involvement in stewardship is that we are to give not because God or the Church needs our time, talent or treasure. We give because we were made in God's image, God, who is the ultimate giver. When we experience ourselves as givers (in a healthy way, not as emotional martyrs) we get to experience the best version of ourselves, the person God intended us to be.

And yes, it is not lost on me how this all ties into my marriage situation. God has a very sick sense of humor. Gotta love him

Mark, the lesson from our little talk about real estate is that when one decides to be a buyer, one should pay all the cash up front.

I jest. But I know that for myself, although I had some doubts leading up to the marriage, I went in thinking that we were BOTH going to change to be the ideal marriage. Some of our conversations over the past few days got me thinking back to that time. After all, why would I marry him if I had the doubts?

I believed we would make it work. We'd had an experience in our dating days where we broke up for a few hours. It was over religion. I left the argument and went to my church event, which was a 2 hour drive away. He followed and showed up at the end of the event, and I decided to give him a second chance because he demonstrated that he was willing to go the distance for me, literally. He started going to church with me. He started going to small groups with me. As I mentioned before, when we got enganged he talked about becoming Catholic. I believed him. He was willing to change for me in order for us to be more united as a married person. So I know he has it in him. But within months of us being married, he went back to the, "I was this way when you married me, I can't change" with regard to meeting my most important EN of conversation. I laid out my vision of marriage, which was a lot like what Mark posted earlier. And he said that he didn't believe in it.

I cannot put into words the disappointment. And I suppose I don't have forgiveness in my heart about it. I shut down, I shut him out, and yes, I was even tempted to get my needs met by someone else. I did everything I could to numb myself from the sadness and disappointment of that rejection of marriage, with the expectation that I still "take one for the team." This weekend, I allowed myself to remember, and to feel. And after I cried really hard, I remembered that now I have tools. I have alanon and MB. I don't have to be stuck in despair. I can have hope.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like "religions" that deep down go against what God really wants.

I do not like religions that take time/ use time from spouses that should be spent on thier marriages.

That is really bad when religions do this.

How much time do you spend away from the house?

1. 5 hours a week alanon?
2. 6 hours a week on stewardship?
3. 7 hours a week with church friends/activities?

No wonder your husband is frustrated. He probably spends less than 6 hours a week on gaming. Or 2 hours a week seeing Porn if that.

Those things you can negotiate with your husband but you need to be willing to give up some of the church stuff. I am amazed he takes care of the family while you are gone all that time on church stuff.

He started going to small groups with me. As I mentioned before, when we got enganged he talked about becoming Catholic. I believed him. He was willing to change for me in order for us to be more united as a married person. So I know he has it in him. But within months of us being married, he went back to the, "I was this way when you married me, I can't change" with regard to meeting my most important EN of conversation. I laid out my vision of marriage, which was a lot like what Mark posted earlier. And he said that he didn't believe in it.

OK, let me guess. Your EN of conversation...does it have to do with RELIGIOUS CONVERSATIONS?