Are you SERIOUSLY drinking the cool aid in the other thread where the men are saying "spread 'em" is basically required before they can make an effort in their marriage?

No, I don't believe that, and I don't think that's what they are saying. I'm just trying to see things through their eyes.

But I think "spreading them" is greasing the wheels a bit for my own husband.

Since the whole denying of SF wasn't working, I thought I'd try something different. Of course, I'd tried that in the past too. But now my atitude is slightly different. Maybe it's making a difference. Time will tell.

Oh, I agree with you on that one. Definitely focusing more on my THOUGHTS as opposed to my EMOTIONS. However, if I'm reacting from my thoughts, or reacting from my emotions, I am still reacting. And my reactions are still not that great, because my thinking is flawed. Yes, better than flying off the handle without thinking first. But I can get caught in the trap of "analysis/paralysis" like nobody's business. Actually, that is more of a problem for me that reacting from emotion. I am so distanced from my onw feelings that reacting from emotion is actually an IMPROVEMENT for me. It's all a matter of perspective.

The main thing is that I strive for improvement and growth. To remain teachable. Because I've been unteachable for too long. Perhaps I swing to the opposite spectrum and am a little too teachable, a little too easily influenced, and a little too quick to accept someone's criticism and instruction. That's OK. I'll learn anyway.

Chris, now you have me craving cool aid. Dangit! Guess I better get to the grocery store

I don't think we are saying that. I think we are saying that deferring sex until ALL of the woman's ENs are being met perfectly may result in it taking a whole heck of a lot longer for her ENs to be met completely than if she could see her way to offering some sex along the way. Just as a man offering some Conversation and Affection along the way probably helps bring closer the day when his wife is truly enthusiastic about sharing her deepest sexual needs and desires with him.

And that was my point on the other thread...


SF is only unique in so far as it is the only EN that should be met only within marriage by the spouse. It isn't a case of the husband not meeting the wife's needs until his are met, but if the wife refuses to meet her husband's needs, whatever they might be unless he is meeting her ENs in the way she desires that they be met, that isn't a partnership but an attempt to manipulate.

Any and ALL of the ENs might be the top of a persona's list of what is most important at any given moment in time. Right after betrayal almost every BS's top EN is Honesty and Openness. This does not matter if it is a woman or a man and is just about universally true. When we find out that we have been lied to, often for a long time, then knowing the truth is the most important thing in our lives.

Yet some who have been the betrayer drag things out for months or even years, refusing to be honest and stopping the possibility for recovery dead in its tracks. They refuse to meet this basic emotional need for lots of "reasons" and a host of excuses. Yet it daily drags at the remnants of the balance in the BS's Love Bank and eats away at the feeling of romantic love and the connection required to build a healthy marriage.

SF is just like any other emotional need. JUST like... Refusing to meet it is refusing to show care for our spouse, just like refusing to meet any other EN is the same. The fact that it is sex and that sex somehow makes it different and alright to refuse is NOT a Marriage Builders concept, not a biblical concept and not one that most people would be agreed to. Yet many women ascribe to that position, not all, not every, maybe not even most, but many. And it is under the guise of equal rights that this has become so common, IMO.

If my ENs are not being met by my wife, then I need to address the cause of that. It is MY responsibility to get my ENs met and HER responsibility to meet them. The opposite is also true and I must meet her ENs and if I am not it is HER responsibility to inform me of where I am lacking. Ideally, we should each meet the other's ENs once we know what needs to be met.

We should meet each other's needs in marriage, not because the other person is perfectly meeting all of ours, which is the attitude of the renter, BTW, but because we promised to love, honor and cherish each other as long as we both shall live. The feeling of love is based on what our spouse does for us, but caring love is based on what we do for them. One is a feeling and the other is a verb. One comes from what our spouse does and the other only has to do with what we are willing to do for our spouse.

Your husband SHOULD meet you EN of Affection and Conversation...and Financial Support and Family Commitment and Honesty and Openness...And YOU should meet HIS EN of SF and RC and Domestic Support and Admiration and Physical Attractiveness. It's the way marriage is supposed to work.

No one would advocate withholding food from a child until he or she cleans up the bedroom or gets an A in spelling, yet when it comes to the person we CHOSE to meet the needs of when we married, we tend to think of our own ENs being met as something we are entitled to before meeting the needs of that person.

This is the sign of our Taker running our negotiations in marriage and it is a sign that our needs have not been met properly and also of the wear and tear on the relationship caused by Love Busters of various types. But once WE know what WE need to do, it is up to US to ensure that WE are doing what WE should do and not hold out for something in return from a spouse who has not yet learned what it is that We need from them.

When neither of us has been meeting the other's ENs for a while and Love Busters have taken their toll on the relationship and BOTH Takers are screaming for attention..and ONE of us has learned that ENs are important and ONE of us has learned that Love Busters cause harm, the ONE who has been educated needs to unilaterally begin doing what is right for the betterment of the relationship without waiting for the other spouse to understand all the ins and outs of Marriage Builders or begin meeting our ENs before we agree to meet theirs.

A marriage with both spouses in a state of Conflict or one in Conflict and one in Withdrawal did not get to that point overnight or by mutual agreement to stop meeting ENs and ignore Love Busters. It got that way through years of neglect by BOTH husband and wife. When one knows the answer to the problem, the one who knows can and should begin making his or her own side of the fence right, not by the way he or she feels but based on what will benefit the marriage. If after everything is right on our side our spouse does not get on board with the program, then we have recourse as to whether or not we remain in a less than fulfilling marriage or choose to leave. No matter what our spouse does since we each own half of the relationship any amount we fix our side by improves the condition of the whole.

When it comes to SF, like with anything else we do in marriage, it falls under the idea of POJA to decide where, when, how often, how much, what will happen etc. When it comes to using SF as a bartering commodity in order to leverage the marriage in some way it is not falling into that category and when it is taken off the table all together unilaterally, then POJA fails, the relationship suffers and eventually the marriage dies, either a slow agonizing death or a sudden devastation brought about by infidelity.

The SAME can be said for ANY emotional need.

The four Intimate Emotional Needs are Recreational Companionship and SF (typically those of men) and Conversation and Affection (Typically those of women). Meeting these four ENs is how intimacy is created in the relationship. Waiting for intimacy to exist before meeting them ensures that intimacy will never happen. The fact that intimacy occurs through Conversation and Affection for the woman and through SF and RC for the man is what makes it so incredibly difficult to sustain because the woman needs different things in order to feel intimate than the man does. Not defective, just different.

When I discovered that my wife was having an affair I did not wait for her to become host with me though my top EN was honesty. I did not wait for her to become the perfect housekeeper (still not going down that road) and did not wait for her to start Admiring me again before I began to meet her emotional needs. I set out to identify and meet those needs and at the same time to identify any Love Busters on my own side of the equation and stop them all in spite of her not being committed to meeting my needs and in the face of the ultimate love buster, being told that she did not love me, never really loved me and would never love me in the way a wife should love her husband. If I had waited for her to show signs of changing her actions first, I would be divorced and posting on a different forum right now.

This is how you bring a spouse back from wanting to leave you, in serious withdrawal, already weighing options for a life with someone else, even a hypothetical someone else and into intimacy with you. You meet the most important ENs, and in fact any EN you can identify and kill as many Love Busters as you can identify within yourself. The turning point comes when you stop trying to fix your spouse and concentrate on fixing yourself first.

If our spouse never gets on board with the program and never begins meeting our own ENs in return than we have a decision to make based on how badly we are being neglected. If it is bad enough that we will never be even reasonably happy, or in fact UNhappy for the rest of our lives, then separation is the choice that may have to be made. But even if we divorce, fixing ourselves will make us better and we can be a better person for the next relationship if it comes to that. Failure to fix ourselves, even if we divorce can only lead to a repetition of the same errors and mistakes no matter where we end up or who we end up with.

This is because love is not magic or something mystical. The feeling of love is generated by doing things that lead to those feelings and when we fail to do them in spite of knowing what they are, then we are the reason the feeling is being lost.

Chris, I am not trying to bust your chops with this. You yourself have been proving the validity of the MB methods. Your husband has responded almost as if the poster boy for the Love Bank model. He just isn't up to speed on MB yet and once he knows what to do, I have no doubt that he will be willing to do it and meet your ENs the way you need them to be met. You can't change him but you can probably give him a reason to change.

Any time we say..."I need..." or "I want..." or "What about me and MY needs?" it is our Taker talking. Our Taker wants us to be happy even if our spouse is unhappy. If we are both unhappy, one of us might be able to get the other back to the place where his or her Giver begins to get involved, but requiring that our spouse put his or her Taker on hold without understanding that they even have a Taker and a Giver in order to make us happy before we agree to do all we can to make him or her happy just about ensures that neither of us will ever be happy as long as we remain married.

And if SF is a top EN that makes a man happy and his wife is using SF as bait to keep him hooked until her own ENs can be met or until she has other options, then it is just as wrong as if he refuses to talk to her or show her affection. The fact that it is a hot button topic for most women shows that for most SF is NOT a top EN and the language used to defend not meeting the EN for their husbands is the rhetoric of radical feminism at its best.

I am not saying you should engage in sex as wifely duty. I am saying that if you are trying to make a man fall in love with you and want to give you what you need from the relationship, one of the fastest ways to do that is to give enough of his top ENs to him to make him fall in love with you. The fact that sex is one of his needs does not change that in the least. Sex is no more magical or mystical than love itself.

BTW, this is one big reason why anyone who discovers his or her spouse is having an EA needs to do all that can be done to prevent it from becoming a PA. Once sex is being given between the affair partners a whole bunch of chemical stuff happens that makes it that much harder to break. Having sex often convinces a woman that she is in fact in love with a guy and for the guy, it just about ensures his willingness to do whatever it takes to continue the trend, especially when neither of them are getting what they need from their respective marriages.

Mark (Who is supposed to be working and not spending so much time thinking and writing about this stuff...)

Get back to work Mark!

As usual, another great (long) post. Honored that it is on my thread.

What I have discovered, as a spouse in conflict/withdrawl, is that I have a whole host of behaviors and attitudes which seem to be designed to "protect" me from having my husband (or anyone else for that matter) meet my EN. And SF is a GREAT example of this dynamic.

Because Sexual Fulfillment is one of MY top needs. I'm just willing to live without it for long stretches because of my need for control. Kinda like food. I'll eat just about anyone that someone else prepares for me. But when it comes to me doing it for myself, I get really picky and lazy. I do the same thing with sex. I really like sex, I don't really have a sexual aversion, although I do have an aversion to painful sex, and I have a pretty good understanding of my own body and when sex will most likely be painful, with or without proper arousal. I often let all my preferences get in the way of me enjoying new sexual experiences with my husband. So I stop allowing him to meet that need altogheter. It is far less about me denying him and more about me denying myself, because I want it "perfect" or not at all. I want dark chocolate, or no chocolate. I want a meal that take little or no effort, or no meal at all. I'm beginning to see the SF issue has far less to do with my husband than it does with me and my "issues." And as I become more aware, I also find I have more motivation to change the behavior.

When I begin to allow SF be a way that I myself connect, and not just my husband, it becomes something I anticipate with excitement instead of resistance. I am beginning to look at it as a tool. I think Mark may have said it earlier. SF as both the expression of intimacy and also the pathway to intimacy. I was caught in black and white thinking. Either or. Now I'm more "both and".

I hope this works for you Think!

I made myself and my H a promise that I would not refuse if my H wanted sex. I told him "In the past, sometimes I would reject you when you wanted sex and that was wrong. I will not do that again." This has been an easy promise to keep because of the improvements in our marriage. It's a total effort sprt of thing the SF along with everythig else...which I think you're doing now.

I told him this early in the process of me learning MB. I don't think he believed me then, but he does now.

I agree, it's the total effort thing. I think we have a tendancy to cherry-pick, and SF usually gets the short end of the stick. But when I made a commitment to no longer cherry-pick, that I would do it in conjuntion with everything else, it was actually easier, because SF is just a very small part of a much larger whole. It actually makes SF less overwhelming for me. Especially compared with something like radical honesty or POJA. Those are huge changes. A little more SF is a small change in comparison, and in that sense, eaiser.

All the ENs are valid and meeting them for our spouse becomes a way to show we care.

There is a line, somewhere..a gray area...where there's a SD about having one's ENs met. It can be subtle; it can be overt.

For instance; a wife can say to a husband, forget about affection 'til you start taking me out to dinner once a week. That's not airing your ENs, that's a selfish demand.

A husband can say to a wife that he doesn't want to have intimate conversation until she can do a better job picking up the house.

That's a selfish demand.

Those are the overt, obvious ways. But the same point can be communicated in a lot of very subtle ways.

And perhaps *that's* really what is being argued about here.

This was so clearly an example of what MB teaches will work. Note the highlighted part.

And it comes full circle. "You DOO understand me and love me!! Come here big fella!" "How is my wife feeling tonight? Where would I be without her insight and compassion? Her desire for relationship? Man Im lucky I have her. Im gonna ask her to talk to me"

Now shh everybody I gotta read Marks post. He allways teaches me something.

I have known that the largest sex organ in our bodies is our brain for a long time. More easily recognizable is our mind which is a mixture of thoughts, chemicals, values from both past an present and the hope of possibilitys. It works for both sexes. But it is in our brain.

Now if you want some insight to thoughts read Marks post on it. I found it very uaeful and could never add to it,(heck I am still working to comprehend it lol). Because our thoughts alone can trigger so many emotions and we need to feel safe and respected by our lover some thoughts get in our way. Because in the deep resesses of our mind are filled with reactions from past issues in life we can't simply force every fear or reactions away but we can examine them to see I they are real or hurting ourselves and others we care for. If we idenify what hurts we can start to explore why. The journey might be slow and it might end quickly but its not for us to say because its thier mind and soul and they must do the work. "When the students ready the teacher will appear" sorta thing.

I support you TTT. You are a thinker. You said you overanalyse and I see the wisdom of how that can hamper progress. I have not yet read through the whole thread but in just these few pages you have expressed what I percieve as a Honest and Up-front Woman willing to Shake your world and see what is left standing. We need people like you. Hats off.

Im gonna read the thread now and see if there is anything I can add of worth

Er...not me - I don't cherry pick.

I may need to hone my skills in certain areas, but I'm in MB all the way.

That's why I did the SF too.

TTT, I am on page two of your thread. I also am a believer, Have been as a child. I know for a fact that God wants your marriage to be healed. Its my opinion that what is taught here is present in all of the marriages He blesses, whether they have come here or not. MB is a Godsend.

Would you mind if I started quoting and commenting on post you have made from the beginning of the thread? I will keep it short and relative to what you have expressed in your heart.


I think you are a very precious lady and God will show you the way. Yes God comes first and he in his love for you put you first. Lets live putting each other first as he does.

Wow. You should put that over on the other thread, for those who are not following mine.

I need to fully digest that myself, but I never thought about that. It addresses the "who goes first" mentality very well.

I almost want to say no, because I think my attitudes have changed a lot just in the short time since I've started this thread, and rehashing old stuff may not be useful.

On the other hand, it also might help me to discern what is still true for me and what areas I still have to work on. So go right ahead!

I think if it were all in one long post that I could respond to, that would be easier on me. If I can make that request

Thanks for the compliments, BTW. Sometimes I see myself in that light too. Other times I'm so focused on my "dark side" that I have a hard time accepting the light side of my nature.

TTT I have been mulling things over in my head for a couple days and have been very busy at home. I type pretty slowly so I need more time than most ppl to compose anything long. I didn't forget tho. seeya soon.

(This is in response to a line of discussion over on the sex thread.)

Chris, I've never been in a physically abusive relationship. And if I were, it would probably be ME being physically abusive. I have a hard time imagining myself staying present for someone's physical lashing out, but it's not so hard to imagine ME lashing out in a physical way. Because it happens verbally.

However, I have been in plenty of relationships where the mutual abuse was far more subtle. And I say mutually abusive because I can dish it out as much as I take it. Seeing my part is incredibly painful and humbling.

My parents had an apparently almost non-existent sex life for their entire marriage. As a child I was obviously not aware of this fact. What I WAS aware of is that the way that they experienced "intimacy" (that is, being heard and "knowing" each other) was through arguments, lectures, and discusssions. This is how we show affection in my family . . . we initiate discussions over the dinner table or in the car or whatever. Usually it is a civil discussion or debate for the purpose of gaining understanding, and sometimes it breaks down to an all out arguement (though that is rare). But in terms of dealing with marital conflict, it is all out war. My parents do not know how to listen to each other or understand each other, and when I was old enough, I inserted myself as the "translator." As a result, I am extremely fluent in the language of "conflict" and am extremely comfortable in conflict, because it is in conflict, especially in the center of marital or relationship conflict, where I experienced a sense of "worth" and even power as a child.

Often in my relationships (romantic and otherwise) I place a whole lot of "worth" in the quality of the conflict. If we can engage in "high-quality conflict" like a debate or discussion where there is a high level of mutual respect, I feel a tremendous amount of self-worth as a result and also esteem the other person very highly. I will gravitate to that relationship. I think that is why I gravitate to these forums so much. I hold all of you in high esteem because we are able to engage in conflict (debate & discussion of issues) in a mutually respectful way for the most part. And I derive a great amount of self-worth because I have been found worthy of response.

However, if I am caught up in a "low-quality conflict" where there is a lot of angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, and lack of mutual respect, I respond by avoidance. Up until the point that I got married and had kids, this tactic worked for me. If I couldn't have a high quality conflict with someone, I ignored them. This meant I ignored the people with whom a low-quality fight would occur. It also meant that I avoided people with whom I had NO conflict. Because if they weren't willing to engage in conflict, then they were either boring, stupid, or apathetic as far as I was concerned. So I didn't have a whole lot of friends, and I was totally OK with that, because I didn't want to be friends with someone who was boring, stupid or apathetic, or who got into angry fights all the time. For me, friendship and creative conflict went hand in hand.

At the point that I got into romantic relationships, this dynamic continued (and continues) to play out. I generally did not date guys who were overtly abusive or angry, nor did I feel anything for the "nice guys" who were boring, stupid or apathetic in my mind. There were one or two exceptions to that, but they were very short-lived when I determined that they were in my estimation "air heads." So my high school and college relationships typically ended when the guy got tired of the atmosphere of conflict, OR they would continue to linger for years because they would stay present for the conflict, act like doormats, and totally lose my respect, which would send me into withdrawl and eventually I'd leave. What has happened in my marriage (due to the rings on our fingers) is a weird combination of both.

My husband does not stay present for the conflict that I try to engage in. He goes into withdrawl. But he "can't" leave because we are married, have kids, etc. For my part, I continue to try to engage in conflict, and he doesn't respond, so my tried and true reaction is to view him as boring, stupid and apathetic (even as I know that this is not truth, but a programmed reaction). I lose respect, go into withdrawl, but I also "can't" leave because we are married, have kids, etc.

What I need is some serious reprogramming. And I think the behavioral modification aspects of MB are a HUGE part of this for me. I also need awareness and acceptance, especially self-awareness, or else I will not be able to sustain the changes I'm making. Because conflict is where I am most comfortable. I would rather be fighting than bored. Do I realize how unhealthy this is? Yes, in the same way an alcoholic who has hit bottom realizes how unhealthy it is to drink himself to death. In the same way an alcoholic can't stop drinking and become healthy on sheer willpower, I can't change what is "comfortable" to me based on sheer will power. My will power is what GOT me to this unhealthy place. So I need to rely on a higher power to get me out.

Think,

Thanks for sharing that.

So you don't feel comfortable unless everything being discussed has black and white borders? I am just guessing here. "give me clarity or give me death", sorta thing?

If someone asked you someting ussually you have an opinion in like ten seconds? A stand in that amount of time also?

What you have been describing is the "hero" character that you hear discussed in Alanon. As you know alcohol does not have to be present for families to be disfunctional and children try to fix the parents or run away. In both cases when parents have problems that scare the children, they suffer.

But what do we do once we are away from the enviroment that makes us who we are? Once we see Mom and Dad have to deal with thier own problems and we are responsible for our life and they are not good examples, Where do we get the habits changed?

I think you are on the right track TT. I am not surprised that you feel so separate from Hubby. Your a woman of high standards. Your Hubby seems like a peacekeeper of sorts.
Ok questions if its ok.

Do you wish he would join with you in some of the causes you work for? Do you feel he could care less about things you find absoluty some of the most important life issues?
Does he just throw up his hands and say "bah" when you challange him?

Do you feel he has resigned himself to being in a relationship where he is never going to get your hands down approval ? Do you think he fels like he wil never get your respect?

Im just asking because I think you are what I would consider a formidable women. . Maybe this has allready been asked so forgive me.

Im just trying to get a feel for how you relate. Im praying you guys can get the romantic ball rolloing. I know it can happen. This program can do it.

I am still balking at making a really big post with what I might have insight in. You are allready very aware of how you would like things to be and can see a lot of even how this program works. . . It might be out of my league. You too definetly suffer in the intimacy department and all I can say is its so common sense that "How can two walk together unles they be agreed"
You must feel unequally yoked and I understand how that feels to be a man who doesn't measure up to his wives expectations. It doesn't matter to us sometimes even if our wifes are asking to much. We just feel so alone.

I don't even know if this fits at all but something a Pastor said once and it caught my minds eye. When I was feeling guilty because I had failed once. When I had pursued my wie when by all rights I should have let her fall untill she dealt with God face to face on her own issue.
"Adam followed Eve into sin because he loved her and couldn't stand to be away from her, he knew what God said about the apple and ate from it anyway."

Notice he later blamed God for giving her to him. I thought, Why? I think Adam only knew what love was because Eve loved him and he wanted that even above everlasting life. He saw what love was thru her eyes. Us men just feel lucky to be loved by women sometimes and many of us have no idea why we are that lucky. and Your Husband is certainly a lucky guy to have such a warrior wife who lives n the truth.

But what about that scared guy underneath all the macho stuff he seems to desire, is that little boy still present?