Same with us. Unfortunately, with kids, we can only do so much. My oldest is a GREAT traveller, but the others are marginal. And if the kida are there it is not UA time anyway.

We aren't able to get away for weekends without the kids very often. Once or twice a year. We sometimes do day trips, maybe once a month.

I liked the comment the dancing lady said about wanting to stick a knitting needle in her eye during the long drive to see the cows

Just goes to show there is always someone who is in worse shape

Geez that stinks....did he give you exact details on what it is that he doesn't agree on that marriage is? This would be very important information to have to understand his reasoning perhaps.

We were both (so I thought) practicing Christians at the time of our marriage and in agreement...met with out Pastor for the talks prior to getting the okay and all that....and my H seemed truly a Christian....within 2yrs of marriage I have been questioning this...I have no idea what he thinks or believes at all...he could be agnostic for all I know...he isn't O&H on most everything with me and has practiced concealing his true position on so many things it's so upsetting....tonight finally we should be able to do the questions orally on the dishonesty chp in the book....and then onto Annoying Habits tomorrow....I need to get some insight and only he can provide it.

Mark, have you ever read C.S. Lewis's "The Four Loves"? It talks about those types of love. I do understand the distiction, especially with Agape, or caring love of 1 Corinthians.

I still have a "love/hate" relationship with the idea of romantic love. I have a hard time with that being my "goal" of marriage. I think my goal is intimacy, which in my definition is different than romantic love and attraction and affection. I wrote out my definition of intimacy here at one point, I'll go hunt it down.

Yes, we have talked about it a lot. If you go back into the early pages of my thread I covered it alot.

I can't find that definition of intimacy. But it is different that Harley's definition, and is based on the works of Matthew Kelly.

I see; I figured there was a chance I was mis-remembering your specific situation.

Couldn't both of those be goals God has for our marriages? Why limit Him to one?

I'm of the belief that romantic love is one of the good and perfect gifts God made, for our enjoyment, and for us to receive with gratitude. Marriage, a good marriage, seems to be the only way to preserve it for years and years. It's actually Catholic teaching that helped open me to the idea that the world is full of good things to enjoy, as opposed to some Protestant characterizations I've seen, which are basically "wait around in this hellhole and try to escape."

Markos, it is so nice to have someone from a protestant background recognize that about the Catholic faith . . . this is why I love my faith! It teaches us that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, literally! All around us, Christ present today in very real ways, just as real as he will be when he comes at the end of time.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, of course tI believe romantic love has a place in God's plan, just has having children clearly had a place in his plan, and so many other things. We are where we are for a reason, and we may never know or understand what that reason is.

I think God's goal for all of us is to bring us in union with His will. And I definitely can see how marriage, even a terrible marriage to an abusive addict, could accomplish that goal. Very blessed that I am not in that situation, as I know people who are. And I do not think romantic love is necessary to accomplish that goal, which is why I have a love/hate relationship with it

I've realized that for much of my life I have "stuffed" my emotions, or viewed them as "the enemy" or as a force that is opposed to my greater good. I have at times believed my feelings were downright evil. I now believe differently, that feelings just are, and are amoral, and if anything, my feelings, especially the powerful or negative ones, are a sign that I need to turn to God, because trying to control feelings is a futile effort that will hurt me. So now feelings are no longer the enemy. YAY! But my habits haven't caught up yet; I'm working on that, through prayer and meditation, and being intentional about my actions.

TOPIC CHANGE

I think Mark you may be right about the RC. Most of the RC I have is with family members, either my parents, my brother, or my kids. And also with my husband. Perhaps FC is what I ought to have in that place; that would make sense.

However, I do still think RC (alone) is something that I enjoy very much and always have. I used to travel alone a lot when I was single, and I liked it

I still believe SF is up there near the top though. Based on the low state of romantic love between my husband and I throughout our entire relationship, including dating and engagement, I could easily have become one of those women who never has sex. But I truly can't bear it. I am an incredibly sexual person. I was in a 3-year relationship in college that I was not happy about, but couldn't bring myself to end it because I liked the sexual part of our relationship so much. If I'm honest, sex is one that that has kept me here, too. I know that if I were ever to divorce, there is a very good chance that I would not be in a second marriage successfully, and having to live witout SF would be very hard. It is rare that my husband and I go more than a 2-3 weeks without SF, even in the worst stages of our relationship. Even when I was pregnant and uncomfortable and had very little sex drive. The longest we went without was during my last PG when I truly wanted a divorce, and this winter before I came here to MB we took sex "off the table" for about 2 months. It was actually very hard on me. Almost like when my husband gave up porn and became so irritable. I am MUCH happier if I am having regular SF (doesn't have to be intercourse). I just don't like to admit this to my husband sometimes

TT66,
As a Catholic, you may find the writings of Dr. Gregory Popcak interesting.

Thanks Retread!

He's from Steubenville, which is where I'd like to get my masters when the kids are a little older. Maybe I'll actually get to meet him . . .

He has also recorded talks for CDs that are available at my church. That one is not on the kiosk right now, but when it is I'll have to grab it

I'd have to say it's very much a part of my Protestant faith, now. And it accords with some of the distinctly Protestant things I've always believed.

I mean, Protestants pass verses like 1Tim 4:3 around "against" Catholicism, and here's a verse that distinctly says God created good things for us to enjoy. Here and now.

And that's how I feel about romantic love. It's a beautiful gift God created because He simply wanted to give us something awesome and wonderful! Interestingly enough, Protestantism said that about sex all my life, but never about romantic love. I was taught that romantic love was an anomaly, or something to bring us together that goes away and is replaced with "mature" love. Which is a choice, not a feeling.

Free sample of what we got from Steve Harley: read Rev 2:1-5 and 3:14-16 and see how Jesus feels about His Bride replacing passionate love with "mature" love in His marriage.


I suspect you and my wife have felt very similar on that. Throw in the fact that both she and I loved Star Trek when we were kids and loved VULCANS, and that probably makes the emotions problem even worse.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (Ja 1:17, sorry for the Protestant KJV, but you can transpose to something Catholic if you like; I'll bet it is similar)

As near as I can tell, this world from God is full of good and perfect gifts to receive with gratitude.

This very much is what I was taught. Not that my faith (or marriage prep classes) taught that romantic love was bad, just that it is not necessary to happiness and contentment in marriage, or neccesasary to the committment of marriage. This is probably why I resisted MB in the beginning. I saw it as very much opposed to what I was taught. I do agree that romantic love is, as Harley states, conditional; however, the Catholic Church is very clear in stating that marriage is by definition an unconditional, indissoluble commitment, and belief at the time of the vows that marriage could under any circumstance be conditional is grounds for annulment (in other words, there was a wedding, but not really a marriage as the church defines it).

I don't see how either of those passages speaks to the idea of "romantic" love. Passionate, yes, but passionate is not the same thing as romantic. Passion means literally to suffer with love. To sacrifice. We call the story of Jesus' crucifixion "the Passion" because he sacrificed.

Harley teaches romantic love is killed by sacrifice.

I'm not saying Harley is wrong, either. I agree that sacrifice leads to resentment which can detroy romantic love.

Sorry, i'm in an argumentative mood today I'll probably stay off the boards for a day or two until this passes

I personally believe that romance and religion ( of any kind) are like oil and water in some ways. For example, religion teaches that honesty / truthfulness is a good thing. This is true in intimate relationships & MB has the PORH and MB identifies Dishonesty as an LB. But religion also teaches that sacrifice is a good thing. Sacrifice in intimate relationships leads straight to resentment - which is the ultimate relationship poison.

Also, for some reason - when Think's thread turns towards religion & Bible quotes, I skim / skip the posts.

LOL!

I think it is all about guiding principles. Various religions and denominations have guiding principles (some of them conflicting). 12 step programs have guiding principles. MB has guiding principles. And sometimes, those guiding principles complement each other, and at other times, oppose.

From what I can tell, MB is based primarily on evangelical/protestant Christian theology, although it is not overtly stated. Sometimes this fits nicely with my understanding of Catholic theology, sometimes not. I have also found that it fits nicely most of the time with my 12 step principles, though not always. Ultimately, the principles which guide me are first, my 12 step principles, second my Catholic/religious principles, and thirdly my MB principles. (I also integrate a particular political philosophy in this as well, but won't go into that!)Most of the time this is not a problem because there is so much overlap. When there is a conflict, however, that is usually a sign that 1) I need to study all my principles better to make sure I understand the best that I can; and 2) I need to make a choice about which principles guide me in the various decision I must make.

MB, just like 12 step, just like all the various religions, is a choice. And the choice is always the same: does this decision get me closer to my primary purpose in life? The answer to that question will be different for each person, because we all calim slightly different purposes in our lives.

I find that it is wodnerful to have so many tools at my disposal. I may not use all of them, or use any of them well. But I have them available to me to help guide my life towards my primary purpose.

I disagree. A key component of Evangelical Xtianity is WOMEN SUBMIT.

MB doesn't say that.

Hi think, you are always thinking so here is an idea for you to chew on.

Have you ever thought that there is a possibility that RELIGION is a crutch/addiction for you? The reason I say that is that years ago religion was an addiction for me. By addiction, i needed to be IN the church, working FOR the church, relating with PEOPLE from the church, and evangelizing PEOPLE for the church, and tithing TO the church.

Without this addiction, that I was compulsive about, and very focused on, I felt lost, lonely, alone, terrible. But I told myself that there WAS NO AMOUNT of religion/Jesus/God that was wrong. I felt that the more of this I had.... the holier/better I was. The more I focused on religion the better life would be.

The reality was my life was unbalanced by the religious acts, meetings, talks, songs, readings, etc.

Any unbalanced life is simply an unbalanced life and addictive behaviors need to be looked at.

But how could worshiping Jesus many hours weekly be wrong? How could that be an addiction? It is a GOOD thing, right?

What this focus on religion did TO me was keep me immature, sheltered from the real world, looking at the real world and people in black and white terms, dealing with everything from a religious angle/point of view.

And other things I found out. One of the terrible things this addiction to religion did to me was make me feel spiritually better than a lot of other people who did not do or say the same religious based things I said and did.

You might want to see if you tend to CLING to religion as a way to avoid relationship with others including your own husband. I know I did this to avoid many things in life.

Just another idea for you to think about.

Also, I hope you don't get offended but I think your religion / beliefs prevent you from being happy in your marriage and in life in general. I say that because of what I have read in your thread.

I think that's why I skip / skim the parts that I do.

On some level I have become vested in your story & it's frustrating for me to watch what I think I am seeing .