If a man must have sex in order to fall in love, that is not the type of man I want to be with,, period. That is pretty superficial and shallow in my opinion.

I'm not saying that YOU are one of those me, Hold. I've read your thread, and you are dealing with a lot of issues, some on your side of the fence, some on hers. I feel very badly for you. And for your wife, too. You're both missing out. As I said, no easy solution.

I'm not the one who has a problem with AO, he does. It is his job to first recognize that he has a problem, and it is his job to come up with his own solution.

His comment about "stupid people" wasn't really an agry outburst as much as it was a statement of "I won't until they do" kind of thing.

My "plan" for how to respond to his angry outbursts is to be honest with him by stating that I believe he is having an angry outbust that bothers me, and ask him to stop, and if he can't, then I will leave the room or he can. My "plan" is not to listen to his angry outburst. Let him go vent to a friend or co-worker. I don't need to subject myself to it. He can vent to me when he can do it in a way that demonstrates repct for me and for himself.

He IS capable of that, and does vent to me in healthy ways too. Not all his anger is expressed as an AO.

Wonderful.

I take that back. I DO have a problem with my own AO. My plan is to become more vigilant stopping them as soon as they start, as well as trying to become aware of what triggers my AO so as to avoid those situations.

For example, when I don't eat, I am more prone to an AO if I get frustrated. Solution is to eat more regularly so that I have less of a "hair trigger" temper.

Also wonderful.

Back to the sex thing, I totally agree with Harley's experience that once a couple is experiencing romantic love, SF is no longer a problem.

It seems that the men (and some of the women) on this board want to say that it's a chicken/egg situation. But in the case of healthy sexual intimacy, it is not. Emotional intimacy must be established in order for sexual intimacy to be emotionally healthy, for both men and women. One may have "good sex" in the physical sense without the emotional intimacy, but it is "just scrumpin" and is not healthy either in the short term or the long term, in my opinion, even within the context of marriage.

SF is a legitimate EN, intended exclusively for the marriage relationship. But even within a marriage relationship, SF can be unhealthy. Using SF to ESTABLISH intimacy is unhealthy. Experiencing SF as an expression of established intimacy is healthy.

There is a middle ground I think. Experiencing SF as an expression of the mutual DESIRE to establish intimacy, as long as it is within the context of marriage. The key word is mutual. Both parties in a state of withdrawl or conflict can engage in healthy SF if they both enthusiastically agree, and are doing so with the understanding that both parties will also make every effort to meet each other's other EN. However, I believe this middle ground should only be used if BOTH parties are of the buyer mindset, because if one is a renter or freeloader, the buyer will necessarily be taken advantage of if this is done long term, which will lead to sacrifice, which will lead to resentment, which will lead to a MAJOR hole in the bucket that may be beyond repair.

Hence, Hold's situation. Maybe even mine.

It's a a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

I am taking in your logic here. My immediate reaction is - I don't want to rush back into sex with my H. I will feel comfortable with SF and not feel resentment about SF if I participate in SF with the knowledge that he is committed to working on our marriage and we are getting closer (entering Intimacy) because of it. I will not use SF as a means to getting him to make that committment and to draw him into intimacy. Can SF actually draw men into intimacy? I am guessing NO.

Anyway, for me to do it any other way would mean more sacrifice - which in itself isn't a bad thing - but in the case of sex... the act is so special & so intimate for me that the "sacrifice" would be too great and would cause big resentment on my side of the fence...

I am glad this subject came up. My H and I are not co-sleeping at the moment...though I am not sure what will happen after Saturday. Maybe I'll have to face the issue at that time. I hope not.

You give me too much credit. I AM one of those men. My wife mistakenly thought I was different. Hence our tragedy.

I am starting to think this makes me a renter rather than a buyer. I am only willing to do so much before I expect sex to occur. If what I am willing to offer to get sex is not enough for the woman to feel in the mood, I am not willing to up my game to reach her level. I would rather end the relationship than put in more effort. Which explains how our marriage got to where it is. I am, in the end, only a renter.

Not to say that my wife is a buyer, either. Likely we are both renters. Which is why MC, even with a MB trained coach, availed us naught.

Oh boy...

Yes, exactly. Note that I am not saying thinkin should have sex with her husband. On the contrary, I agree she should not. Doing so will only build resentment at him for pressuring her.

I sincerely hope that her husband really feels and ascribes to the values he showed by waiting until after marriage to return to shared sexuality.

Well, Hold, maybe you're one of those men, and maybe you're not. Maybe to some extent it IS a choice.

I think the only reason he "waited" is because he was afraid of the fight. Not because he felt the same way I did.

Chris, I DO think that SF can lead a man into intimacy, if it actually leads both partners to filling each other's EN.

I think this points to exactly the dilemma Dr Harley discovered when he began to research what he came to refer to as Emotional Needs. He realized at once that there were certain things that led to feelings of romantic love, not in single instance of occurrence, but in being repeated consistently. He even knew that there would be a difference i between what men found to be stimulus toward directed happiness/love/intimacy/connectedness and what women considered from the same standpoint.

What came as a total surprise, according to what he has said, is that the difference was so radical and so polarized. The things that women needed from a relationship in order to feel romantic love were not the same things that men needed, but even more astounding was the fact that the lists weren't just ordered differently, they didn't include the same things on the lists.

Now we all know that the "typical" male and the "typical" female are only statistical constructs and not all men respond exactly the same way and that all women are not the same as each other either. But the typical male has SF near the top of his list, usually within the top 3 and almost always within the top 5. For the typical woman it is usually in the bottom 5 and in many cases within the bottom three, assuming the ten ENs identified by Dr Harley and enumerated in his body of work.

What this leads to is that men have to do things they have no interest in doing, no experience with valuing, no general understanding of why they are important to his wife.

But the reverse is also true. Women generally have a hard time getting it when it comes to understanding what men want, like, value, experience, feel and what causes them to value, experience, feel etc those things.

So a man does NOT naturally meet the need for conversation. It isn't one of his needs and does NOT establish large Love Bank balances for him. Affection to him IS a sexual act because SF is one of HIS needs. Financial support whenever brought up makes a man feel like he is only valued for his paycheck. Family commitment is meaningless to a man who feels that he is showing full commitment to his family by working longer hours to provide that paycheck that he has come to realize is one of his wife's needs.

To man, intimacy is spelled s.e.x. To a woman, it is spelled s.h.a.r.e. (again, we are talking statistical constructs here and broad generalizations that must be used in demonstration of the idea rather than describing all women or all men)

A woman needs to feel connected to enjoy sex. I get this. I really do. A man needs sex to feel connected. The chemical responsible for a feeling of connectedness is vasopressin and in men it is at its highest levels right after orgasm.

The bonding chemical is oxytocin. In women it is at its highest levels minutes before birth. It crosses the placental barrier and shuts down the cognitive and memory functions of the baby preventing trauma with long term implications from the birth process. It also cause the mother to become instantly bonded to her baby when he is placed on her chest after birth.

Estrogen modifies the effects of oxytocin to cause a nurturing instinct whereas in men, the testosterone causes the man to become territorial and willing to sacrifice for his offspring and what he considers his.

But in a man the highest levels of oxytocin occur within about 15 seconds of orgasm, just as levels of dopamine (the happy drug) drops and serotonin levels (the well being chemical) peak over the next few minutes. So sex for a man is how he gets connected, bonded and feels good in general.

Vasopressin also peaks in women within a few seconds after orgasm as dopamine levels begin to drop. So enjoyment of sex can lead to a feeling of connectedness in both men and women.

Affection, conversation and recreational companionship (the other intimate emotional needs) all increase dopamine levels. But dopamine modified by testosterone is what drives sexual attraction and arousal in BOTH sexes. For women there is less testosterone and so the buildup is more gradual.

When you have sex with your husband it is during and following that act that he feels closest to you, connects with you on a level he does not connect with anyone else on the planet in an even remotely similar way and feels bonded to you afterward like he feels at no other time in his life. For him, RC was the biggest draw pre-sex days and not conversation. Affection led eventually to sex and that was because it stimulated his sex drive as well as yours, due to the physical attractiveness caused by raised levels of testosterone.

BTW, since oxytocin in the presence of high levels of estrogen causes a nurturing instinct to predominate,
as a woman becomes bonded to her husband she tends toward wanting to take care of him more than she wants to have sex with him

So a woman doesn't have the interest in sex to begin with because she has lower levels of testosterone than a man but also because of her high levels of estrogen becoming bonded to her husband actually causes her sex drive to decline. This can reverse in the mid to late 30s when a woman's estrogen levels begin to drop and the relative balance between estrogen and testosterone shifts more toward the testosterone side of things.(Still highly estrogen oriented, however.)

This is why more women have affairs in their 30s and 40s where as men tend to have affairs before they turn 30 when testosterone is at it's highest and they have not yet learned to establish a strong enough bond to their relatively new wife.

So there is the scientific research end of why sex is more important to men than to women.

An old line but one I think applies is this: Men marry women hoping that they will never change. Women marry men hoping that they will change. Both end up disappointed.

At work, so replies may be sporadic at best...

Mark

A good reply as always Mark. I am limited in my abilities to respond because I;ve got kiddos needing me a lot today. But I want to go back to that Buyer Renter Freeloader quiz.

BTW, I am fascinated by homrones because I am natural birth junkie. I unerstand the female side VERY well because of this, but the male side not so much.

Also, my experience of guys prior to my husband is that conversation was a top EN for them too, so the fact that it is not for my husband is a struggle for me because my experience of men is that conversation is important to them. I realize that my husband is very normal. And yet his is also outside the norm of what I have experienced with men, both as romantic partners as well as the men in my family.

OK, I filled out the questionairre and am going to print the questions and my answers here:



Buyer: 1 FALSE/9 TRUE

Renter: 3 FALSE/7 TRUE

Freeloader: 7 FALSE/ 3 TRUE

So the good news is I am definitely NOT much of a freeloader. But apparently I am pretty conflicted about whether I am a buyer or a renter. Makes sense. I don�t mind buying a house because if I don�t like it after being in it for a while, I am totally OK with selling rather than fixing depending on what the problems are and whether the investment is worth it.

Hold, I would love to see your answers to this quiz. I bet you are more of a buyer than you think


OK, let the 2x4's and self justifcations in response fly!

I don't think anyone answered Chris's question.

Do we fake it till we make it with sex?

I know if my husband thinks I am only having sex to satisfy his need, he would rather not have it. He wants me to desire him. The only way I will desire him is if he meets my EN, so the onus is on him in this scenario.

Answer True or False to the following 30 questions:

1. If I am getting less than I need from _______ (name of spouse/significant other), it�s reasonable for me to expect him or her to sacrifice his or her happiness for my fulfillment. FALSE

2. Romantic relationships require a certain amount of give and take, but what I give to _______ should be worth what I take. In other words, I should be able to get out of this relationship what I put into it. TRUE

3. If we are right for each other, _______ will not want me to change. FALSE

4. I will be in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______ for life. TRUE (ideally I would answer true, but I am conflicted over this, so I feel that right now the most honest answer is False)

5. I am willing to sacrifice my happiness once in a while to satisfy _______ if he or she is willing to sacrifice his or her happiness once in a while to satisfy me. TRUE

6. I should do for _______ only whatever comes naturally to me. FALSE

7. Our romantic relationship is fatally flawed if _______ does not accept me as I am. TRUE

8. The goal of my romantic relationship with _______ is for us both to be happy and fulfilled with each other. For that reason, we must both learn to do everything with each other�s interests and feelings in mind. TRUE

9. If _______ expects me to do something in return for his or her care of me, we are probably not right for each other. FALSE

10. If what I get in my romantic relationship with _______ isn�t worth what I give, he or she should either give me more, or I should end the relationship to find someone who can give me more. TRUE

11. Solutions to the problems that _______ and I face should be long-term solutions that satisfy both of us. TRUE

12. _______ should not expect me to have a permanent romantic relationship with him or her. FALSE

13. Criticism from _______ should not cause me to try to change my behavior. It should cause me to consider ending our romantic relationship. FALSE

14. If _______ has a problem with some aspect of our romantic relationship, we should both work together to find a solution that we can permanently adopt. TRUE

15. Even though I am presently in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______, it�s reasonable for me to compare him or her to others who may meet my needs more effectively. TRUE

16. _______ and I should learn how to make each other happy without sacrificing our own happiness to do it. TRUE

17. It�s reasonable for _______ to expect me to do something in return for what he or she does for me. TRUE

18. The decisions that _______ and I make should make both of us happy and fulfilled. TRUE

19. If _______ criticizes me, it means that he or she is probably not right for me. FALSE

20. A short-term sacrifice may be necessary for me to learn a new habit or create a lifestyle change that accommodates _______ . But if I am not eventually happy with the habit or lifestyle change, I should not continue to make the sacrifice. TRUE

21. If _______ criticizes me, he or she simply wants me to give more to compensate for what I am taking from him or her. So it�s reasonable for me to give more to him or her if I feel that he or she is giving enough to compensate me for my effort. TRUE

22. If _______ wants me to do things for him or her that I don�t feel like doing, he or she is probably wrong for me. FALSE

23. The mutual enjoyment and fulfillment that _______ and I share is more important than what either of us regards as fairness. TRUE

24. _______ may be right for me now but may be wrong for me later if he or she meets my needs now but fails to meet them at a later stage of my life. FALSE

25. When my needs or those of _______ change, both of us should make adjustments in our habits and lifestyle to accommodate the new needs so that our romantic relationship can be fulfilling to both of us throughout life. TRUE

26. _______ should not expect me to have an exclusive romantic relationship with him or her. FALSE

27. My romantic relationship with _______ should last as long as I feel it is fair. FALSE

28. I should be in an exclusive romantic relationship with _______ only as long as he or she is meeting my emotional needs. FALSE

29. If _______ were critical of me, it would indicate that an adjustment of my habits and lifestyle are required until the change would satisfy him or her. TRUE

30. If _______ is right for me, he or she will make me happy without my having to put much effort into making him or her happy. FALSE


Buyer 11
Renter 6
Freeloader 1

So what's the final verdict Chris? You a Buyer, Renter or Freeloader? A little of each, like me?

Looks like I am strongly in the Buyer category....with some Renter tendencies.

But that could be a result of MB training Who knows how that would have turned out 2 months ago.

I was a renter all the way a few months ago

I am about evenly split between Buyer and Renter. When we first got married I would have been more strongly tilted toward Buyer. Now I find it tougher to say I am committed to changing "until she stops complaining" or "until she is satisfied". At this point, there are limits on how far I will go. If she is still unhappy or unsatisfied at that point, too bad for both of us. I realize that means my needs will go unmet. So? BTDT. At some point trying to help her feel happy and satisfied feels to me like slamming my head against a brick wall. I am sure she feels the same way.

The MB system works when both spouses are Buyers. When both will keep working to get to success no matter what it takes. When neither will settle for less. To me one of the key lessons from MB is that you don't need to find another spouse to get there. It isn't about BEING compatible. It is about CREATING compatibility. So if you want happiness and fulfillment, work toward it with your current spouse. On the other hand, some of us ARE willing to settle for less. MB cannot overcome that.