Luri, thanks for your words. My husband would never ask me to reject my faith. He just doesn't want to join me. Yes, he will attend church. But he won't embrace it. I am grateful for the times that he joins me. And I make an effort to invite him, instead of shutting him out. It is irritating to sit there with him knowing that he's only doing it for me, sacrificing. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad on one level he will do it for me! But it is a sacrifice for him. He would rather do other things.

He "lets" me have church and other IB so that I will "let" him have his IB.

He most definitely expects his spouse to sacrifice in exchange for his own sacrifice. That is apparently what he believes about marriage according to his actions. He will do ANYTHING to avoid meeting the need for conversation that is fulfilling for me. He would rather me have an affair, and has said so. That would be like me telling him to go find a 20 year old blond, and mean it.

You want more conversation. About what do you want to talk with him about?

He even goes to church with you? Wow. My husband won't do that.

But he won't embrace it

Who are you to judge? Maybe he won't embrace the wasteful and fanatical parts of the Catholic church. My husband was raised Catholic and believe me there are a lot of bad things about that religion. My husband believes in God and lives a good life.

If you had a man who would embrace your religion, you would NOT WANT HIM. Who would stay home with the kids while you both were gone doing stewardship? He would be mentoring young women. He would spend 25 hours a week at the church and the church would love the "free volunteer work" they get out of you both.

Your marriage would be done if he was as fanatical and dedicated to religion as you are. Why not take it all the way. Become a NUN. Is it too late for you to do that? I mean WHERE DOES IT END!!!

As you can see it really frustrates me when I see RELIGION get squarely in the way of HAVING A GOOD MARRIAGE. It seems so ironic. God wants us to have a good, loving marriage. Not spend hours and hours on RELIGION. I fear you do not see that your religion is getting in the way of your marriage improvement.

I am ok with condoms and so is he. It just didn�t prevent pregnancy the last time.


It�s his body, and he can do so if he wants. I�m just not going to make the appointment for him. He is an adult and can make his own healthcare decisions, and if having sex without fear of pregnancy is that important to him, then he can do it. I don�t push it, talk about it, etc. It�s his business.

I do not agree with it on a general level. I think a marriage should be procreative. I think that if we resolved our other problems, we also might be very open to more children. But he can choose too. That IS his side of the street.


It�s not about what my religion does or doesn�t say, and it most certainly is not about my pastor. It�s about my own personal convictions. Trust me, I do have MAJOR issues with many church teachings, mostly because I don�t understand them. And I don�t have a problem with a TINY bit of mental fantasy. I agree that is normal and healthy within reason. What I do goes beyond what I am comfortable with. I am using fantasy as an escape. I�ve never faked an orgasm and wouldn�t even know how. But it�s like faking the orgasm in my head. It�s allowing my husband to be an object of pleasure instead of a person loving me. It�s a lie.

No Bubbles. A sin is anything that keeps me from the love of God. It may be an action, or a lack of action, but it may also be the motivation behind the �right� action or inaction. I�m not worried about sin. I strive to do my best, and I fail every day, and that�s OK, because I know that I can always turn to God and ask for help. I may make the same mistake over and over and over again. And God loves me enough to let me keep making the same mistake until I am in enough pain that I am capable of learning from it. Wtihout sin I wouldn�t get to experience the saving love of God. And since perfection isn�t possible, instead I strive for progress. I strive for learning. I strive to make the most of my sins and mistakes. �Never let a crisis go to waste!� LOL


Yes, he is a giver. But he is giving the wrong things. The point of MB is for me to learn how to meet my husband�s MOST IMPORTANT emotional needs, not the ones that I am most comfortable meeting at the expense of the most important ones. My husband correctly feels that he has changed tremendously during the years we have been married. He has a list of all his sacrifices, and he is willing to remind me of them too. I acknowledge and appreciated it. I have been racking my brain for years trying to figure out why it wasn�t �enough� for me, and now I know . . . he was trying to meet the wrong needs!

Not that I�m a saint. I have doing the exact same thing.


Obviously haven�t been to one of those meetings yourself, have you Bubbles

I don�t go to �complain� about him or anyone. In fact, if I went into one of my meetings and focused on complaining, I�d get my butt handed to me. That is what a sponsor is for (female). We talk about the solution, not the problem. (not just marriage, not just alcohol, but anything, because the same principles apply to all areas of our lives, not just the problem du jour). I stay away from meetings where there is �drama� as you say. Yes, it is out there, and I know where to find it if I want to. Most of the people I surround myself with are long-timers who are very good at handing out 2x4s, but with a bit more compassion. Women stick with women, men stick with men. That said, I do have male �friends� from the program, but they are significantly older than me (parents� age bracket) and there is most definitely NOT an attraction component! These guys are old enough to be grandparents, and some of them are, and a lot are in healthy marriages. And I�m not out getting coffee with them or anything either.

I try to go to meetings during the day so as not to cut into potential UA time. And mostly women at these meetings, because most men are working during those times.

It�s not that my husband is not �holy enough� because that would be an incredibly self-righteous attitude, even for me. I long for him to have the same desire for self-improvement and self-discovery that I have, because really, that is all that holiness is in my worldview. Not adhering to a bunch of rules for the sake of the rules. Screw the rules. It�s about self-discipline bringing me closer to my God, instead of heartless hedonism and moral relativism.

I do not know if my husband is addicted to anything. I do kow thqat he grew up in a family of active alcoholics and drug addicts, and that has affected his ability to be intimate, just as the generational effects of alcoholism have affected my ability to be intimate, my brother�s ability to be intimate, and my parents� ability to be intimate. And I�m not just talking �sex� intimate.

It is not my job to label him, as your correctly say. And I�m not going to get into a conversation with you about �program stuff� because it really isn�t relevant and there needs to be some mutual understanding about some basic things to do that in a productive way. I don�t know if he is a �dry drunk�. I don�t know if he is even addicted to porn; he is the one who says he is addicted. If it keeps him from being close to other people, and he doesn�t like it, then it�s a problem, but it�s his problem to solve, not mine. It�s my job not to contribute, and I try not to.

Yes, I�m sure there are plenty of people in my world with whom I could be attracted if I went looking. I don�t go looking. I have enough on my plate.

I�m done with this line of questioning for now. I think I�ve said my piece and anything more just ain�t productive or relevant at the moment.

I don't want to do that, because that's just justifaction, and justification is just the lie I tell myself so I can sleep at night. BTDT.

WE don't have to be on exactly the same page religion wies. And we don't need to be exactly the same eithr. I mean, if we were both the same then one of us would be unneccesary, and then I could become a nun and lvoe God and not have to worry about any of this stuff right?

No, Bubbles, I think you need to go back and read what Mark posted about his view of marriage, based on the creation sotry. That is what I want, and I will chip away at everything that doesn't look like that. That doesn't mean that I should sacrifice my religion though. And it doesn't mean that I should just accept him not meeting my EN.

Mark, Retread, ML? Am I wrong on this?

It�s his body, and he can do so if he wants. I�m just not going to make the appointment for him. He is an adult and can make his own healthcare decisions, and if having sex without fear of pregnancy is that important to him, then he can do it. I don�t push it, talk about it, etc. It�s his business.


Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe the part in the Bible about "becoming one flesh" with the one you marry? The Bible speaks of your body being NOT YOUR BODY BUT YOUR SPOUSES and HIS BODY NOT BEING HIS BODY BUT YOURS.

You are ONE with your husband. So why won't you talk about this? Why wont you make the decision with him? IT IS HIS BUSINESS!!! No way. It IS YOUR BODY -HIS BODY IS YOURS>

IT IS NOT HIS BUSINESS> what else wont you talk about with him!

I would love for us to read the Love Languages book and talk about one chapter each week. Or listen to it on CD since he is not a reader.

Maybe one day we could talk about MB stuff. I don't think either of us is ready for that yet. I think we both need a bit more action and romantic love (from me) first.

I'd like to talk about the readings each weekend at church.

I'd like to talk about politics without making AO and DJ.

I'd like to talk about our dreams for the future, what we want to accomplish together, what we hope for, what we are afraid of, what hurts us.

I'd like to talk about what it was like to grow up in my family, the good and bad and ugly.

I would like to be in touch with my own painful feelings and espress them to him and have him respond by saying "Tell me more about that" when I start to get quiet and thoughtful, and to hug me when the words don't come but the tears do.




And I want more than anything to do the same for him.

I don't want him to be a saint. I want him to talk about his mistakes and what he's learned from them instead of pretending they didn't happen. And I want him to call me on it when I do the same.

We solved our religious dispute by going Non-Dom.

We would never ever reconcile his Southern Baptist with my Roman Catholic, no way, no how. And we really couldn't reconcile my Hindu, Jewish, Unitarian Universalist, Buddhist and just-cause-I-believe-it beliefs with his believe-this-or-you're-going-to-hell beliefs.

Non-dom, Bible-based faith works for us. I don't believe that the Bible is untrue. I just think there's more.

Perhaps you are using the church teachings SELECTIVELY to give you excuses to NEGLECT your husband and be SEPARATE from him in most every way. When in reality God calls us to act the TRUTH OUT in our marriages.

THE TRUTH OF MARRIAGE IS THAT WE ARE ONE WITH OUR SPOUSE, ONE FLESH. WE ARE TO ACT THAT WAY.

I have talked with him about it. I have said that I will support him in this decision if that's what he wants. I have not made a big issue about my beliefs. I accept that we have different perspectives. If he gets a vasectomy it will not be a LB. I can enthusiastically support him.

However, I do know that there will be consequences to this decison, good and bad. I can't be certain what they will be. I'm not talking "eternal" consequences, but consequences in the here and now, in the way we relate to each other and ourselves.

When I say it's not my business, I really mean that it is not my job to make the appointment. He is a grown man and needs to take responsibility for himself.

FYI, I do not take the Bible literally, piecemeal, or out of context if I can help it.

OK, this has gone WAY offtrack. We don't need to get into religious debates. I know what I believe, and for guidance with that I can stick with some trusted sources of information, same as any of you would do.

Please let's stick to MB principles. If we can add a religious tie in on occasion I would love that. I love other people's viewpoints, even when they differ from mine. But berating me is not productive. Please stop.

I'll take a MB 2x4 now and then. Keep the religious ones to yourself unless you can practice the compassion of Christ.

There are 1000 ways you could get conversation needs met thru your husband. I could help you with this.

I noticed over 50% of the conversations you want to have with your husband are about RELIGION. Do you think you could tone that down a bit, just for a few weeks while getting conversation with him going? I mean, once you two develop good conversation techniques and both learn to love conversing with each other, then you can bring in some religious conversations as long as you do it sparingly.

What did you mean by "He would rather have me have an affair than talk to me". Could you explain so we can help you two get back onto the positive conversational path????

My husband craves to talk with me and I love to talk with him about ANYTHING. Now I can see if I only talked about religion, it would get a little old. But we do talk about that occasioally.

There seems to be a lot of important things you and your husband would like to talk together about. How can we help you make that happen in your marriage?


Conversations are very very important between spouses, from a wide range of "shallow bantering" to "deep thoughtful talks", it is suprememly important in marriage.

I want to find out exactly what is blocking good conversation in your marriage. So that we could help you UNBLOCK it.

I have an idea of what that could be but am not sure...

Religion is also something I believe should be POJA'd.

Find something you both can get behind.

My thoughts are that conversation leads to true intimacy in marriage. And that ONENESS with your husband...that you desire (deep inside) but feel you cannot achieve.

He is OK with shallow bantering. I want more of the deep thoughtful.

FWIW, I have made religion and relationship two topics that we do NOT talk about. Doesn't mean I don't want to though

We'll get there eventually.

I 1000% agree.

How exactly do you approach a deep and thoughtful talk? I used to talk about my childhood and my husband would listen. Then he would comment or start talking about his childhood. We try to be good talkers and good listeners. That way no discussion is off limits.

Is there something about your conversation techniques that turns your husband off cold? Or makes him want to run from the room? Or otherwise shut you out or withdraw? There must be something.

Something in the way of intimate conversation!

Can't do anything but Catholic enthusiastically.

He's not opposed to catholicism per se. In fact, he is pretty much ANTI anything evangelical, bible-based only. He's got good reason too. He's more comfortable with catholicism than anything else.

And I'm very open to "new age" kind of thinking to a very limited degree. I'm fascinated by buddhism, taoism, other spiritual traditions. I love all things spiritual!

He's comfortable with the idea that there's something out there, and that is enough for him. But putting spiritual principles into a daily practice with our actions is something he seems resistant to. Even MB. MB is VERY spiritual in nature in my opinion, though it adheres to no particular faith.

I think Alanon would be a GREAT middle ground for us. It is not bible based, is not allied with aby religiou=n or sect, but is deeply spiritual. It is a path for emotional progress and makes no demands other than you show up, listen and begin to put the principles into action. It's about building better relationships. I would love if he would come with me to a meeting.

He did once, back before I was ever really involved. He said he wished that he could go to a group like that, but didn't feel he belonged (we all feel like that at first).

He's got it in him. I just need to be patient with him, I think.

But tien spiritual principles into a daily practice with our actions is something he seems resistant to.

He's got it in him. I just need to be patient with him, I think.


You seem to repeat again and again that your husband LACKS something or some (spiritual?)things. What exactly does this man lack? That you WANT him to have?

(Perhaps he has all he needs only YOU need to embrace what he can give to you!)

Maybe