With so many threads moving so fast I don't know where to go with this but since I posted here this morning, this is where I'm at...

The first thing you have to do is to get control of your emotional reactions to all of this. Yeah, I know it is an emotional topic but if you act from your emotions you will likely get responses that are equally as emotionally charged and still have nothing tin the way of real data that you can take hold of.

There are few things that you can do to improve the odds of you coming out this with an intact, healthy and happy marriage. Unfortunately there are many more things that you can do that will decrease that likelihood significantly.

A couple of things you already have going in your favor. 1) He has been responding well to the new and improving (improved) version of Chris that he has been interacting with the last few days. 2) Most men have no intent of leaving their wife in order to take up with someone they might see as a possible side dish in their life. (Everybody can spare me the stories of men who did not fit this profile since that is not the discussion we are having right now and I am not saying all men, just most)

The real damage done in an actual EA is the comparison that takes place in the mind of the wayward spouse. This is not a fair comparison in which actual condition of the marriage is compared to actual attributes of the EA but rather a comparison of all the things wrong with the marriage against the fantasy that surrounds the potential for the EA. If the marriage very quickly shows itself to be better than the affair, at least for most men, that fantasy crumbles pretty quickly.

As Mr W pointed out on another thread today, a real LOVE affair would probably be much more addictive in behavior than what you have so far. My wife did not have a handful of inappropriate emails and text messages. She had HOURS of phone calls, late into the night, before dawn the next morning with emails that included risque' pictures in between. They talked on the way to work, during break, during lunch, on the way home from work, while I was in the shower in the morning, during the ten minute trip to the store for milk at 10pm that took 40 minutes to complete though we'd been out of milk for three days by then.

This is the way people "in love" act...

re: Sex during Plan A...

If this woman is "No good white trash ho" and sleeps her way around every weekend with a different guy, and if your husband has already had sex with her then the possibility of sex leading to something horrible in the way of an STD is already likely since sex has increased between you and your husband recently anyway. If she is a bored or neglected housewife who sees your husband as her dalliance on the side, she probably isn't a walking AIDS platform looking for a place to start a new epidemic.

You know her FB page, right?

What does she say about herself there?

Is she married?

Does she have kids?

Information...

Data...

REAL stuff...

These are things that can tell you what you need to know about who she is and what her investment is in any relationship she might actually see herself in with your husband.

You need to very quickly gather info that you can use to confront him about this OW. By quickly I mean a day or two not three weeks of letting your own attitude toward him deteriorate to the point where you are fighting your own emotions constantly in order to just interact with him.

Again, you can do a few things that will make ending up with a great marriage more likely and a whole bunch of things that reduce that percentage, so understand, plan and act instead of reacting to what you really don't yet know. It is hard to win back a spouse who has decided to move on to someone else. It is all too easy to push them that direction.

Stop, breathe, pray, gather data and let's come up with a plan.

BTW, SIM card readers cannot tell you what was on the SIM card that has already been deleted. SIM card readers do no good at all for any phone that doesn't have one (Sprint, VZW, US Cellular, other CDMA networks). Only GSM family carriers use them. (ATT, T-mobile, Nextel IDEN, Dobson, etc)

As far as I know, there is no way to get actual contents of deleted text messages once they have been deleted on ANY network, even by legal subpoena. The carriers don't keep those records because they don't record those things. The government can get a cloned device that will intercept them but for the public they are not legal.

SMS (text message) records usually indicate a trend at best. If there are typically 5 or ten SMS interactions in a month and suddenly there are three hundred and 250 of them are between the same two phones, that is a trend likely to indicate an affair.

5 SMS interactions per month does not indicate an affair, though it probably does indicate pretty poor boundaries when those interactions contain what you have discovered so far.

So far you know that he has contact with this woman and that the way they interact is inappropriate. THIS is why you need to snoop further to find out what is going on for sure. Yeah, I know, everyone else was surprised to find out about the affair, myself included, but there were other red flags as well and unless this has already become a PA, the odds are still in your favor.

Not saying there is no affair of any kind here, gang. I am saying that even though not the right way for coworkers to interact with each other, the one exchange is not really enough to jump off the bridge over.

we can assume what is going on or we can surmise what is happening but it would take more than a couple of text messages for me to file for divorce no matter what was in the messages (unless of course they were confessions of undying love and commitment to living happily ever after once the "problem" is taken care of.)

So far you have been acting as if the enemy of your marriage is Withdrawal. Even if there is an affair the weapon that will work best is the same weapon. You might need to fight with exposure if you can confirm more than inappropriate actions, but at this point your only real options are to find out more, and in absence of any more evidence (not more interpretations to the existing evidence) then your best option, IMO, is to talk to him directly about his interaction with this coworker and maybe to call her out and ask her why she is flirting with your husband.

If it is an affair this in itself will tell you the truth based on the reaction you get. If they are flirting (yeah, that is not the right thing to do if you are supposed to be protecting your marriage) then they will probably quit without much fight. If you get "You're not the boss of me" kind of response then you can assume there is more than just flirting and if you get wailing weeping and gnashing of teeth (that's how the bible describes Hell, BTW) then you know that he is emotionally invested beyond thinking she might be pretty (A lady we already agree she is not).

KNOW what you are up against.
THINK about what you will do.
ACT instead of reacting.

If you think you are in danger because you think this OW might be that "No good uptown, slept with every guy around, stuck on eyelash, no good white thrash ho" then stop having sex with him until the confrontation and see about testing before resuming. But if she's a bored housewife, statistically you are in pretty good territory and since you have already had sex with him if he has already slept with her you have already been exposed to anything she might have already given him.

Mark

Mark,

Thank you.



More info - Tonight my H was waiting for me with a big kiss at the door. He had set the dinner table and put our food in the oven. Previously he would eat down stairs alone in front of the TV.


After dinner we were alone & we were talking. I had the opportunity to ask him directly if he's ever cheated on me in the 11 years we've been together. He said no. I asked him if he's ever thought about it or been tempted to. He responded and said that he has thought about it and been tempted to, particularly after the incident between us in 2006. I also broached the topic of privacy and confirmed he is a firm believer of some privacy in marriage (I knew this from before) & that married people should not violate what little privacy there is between them. I told him that my stance is different, and explained my position about the concept of "privacy" in marriage. We did not have the same POV. I said that this looks like something we have different opinions on & no one conflict is more important than our relationship. I said that IMO it's more important that we understand each others' POV. There was more and I felt this was a good conversation. I am hoping that we can go to MB training together soon and he can learn about marital privacy from the MB perspective. We also talked about his friendship with the former subordinate. I spoke on how they talk alot and they were even accused of fraternization the last time they deployed. He just doesn't see it as anything inappropriate. He joked about how far way she lived, rolled his eyes and said "Yeah - we fly to meet each other. When I go to work evry day, I'm really flying to meet her. Then I fly back every evening." He said insulted that I may not trust or respect him. I assured him that I do trust and respect him, I just have a different POV.

Part of what I discovered during this conversation is:

1) There is virtually no way for me to tell him that I found that text in absentia of other damning evidence.
Mark, in my research I found that the reader will pick up messages which the user "deletes" on the phone that have not been overwritten yet. One the message is overwritten it is supposedly "gone" for real. My plan is to download each night when he is in the shower. I will do this for a month to see what pops up. i confirmed that the reader is compatible with his cell phone.

2) Looking him in the eye and speaking with him, I still do not "feel" an affair.
Everyone over @ SAA says "you'll feel it" and "you'll know." Well, I have no feelings of the kind. What I do feel is that I have a spouse who doesn't erect appropriate boundaries....a spouse who was feeling unattractive and wanted some kind of affirmation from an outside source / another female...a spouse who could use some MB 2 x 4ing.

After my initial rush of emotions today, I am very calm.

I have the "pretty lady's" full name, workplace info, highschool grad info, and Facebook Page URL. Her status says "in a relationship." I really don't think there's anything there. There just isn't much contact.

I sent a friend request to the "friend" who lives in AZ under the guise of her mentioning to my H that she wanted to purchase something from me. The message began with "Hi It's Chris, Daniel's wife." I let my H know that I sent it too. I told him I was protecting my territory. He smiled.

BTW - part of my snooping was logging into his FB account. I found ziltch.

Chris, thank you so much for sharing your story here. It has been wonderful to have a fellow "questioner" to share my MB journey with, and I feel so sad that yours has taken this recent turn. I'm off for a few days to "process" my own emotional stuff, but I wanted to let you know that I'll be thinkig about you and praying that you have guidance and direction.

Hi Chris,

I am so sorry that you are going through this new revelation. IMHO your *instincts* can usually be trusted - if you are being honest with yourself, and not purposefully turning a blind eye because you aren't yet ready to "see" the truth. Just be careful, there are many who have said "he would *never*..." and then found out that he had. SW's XH was a particularly bad example. It was much worse than she or any of us ever imagined. But then again, from what she posted, there was a lot worse "vibe"...

I guess what I'm trying to say is, continue to snoop but don't burn any bridges. Especially don't tip your hand before you're ready, even if a PA is found.

You are already getting great advice, I can't add anything to it really.

The main thing I wanted to say is, you have used names (RL names?) and you may want to consider editing them out.

*hugs* You are in my thoughts. If I had any suggestions to offer you weren't already getting, I'd post more to you. But I don't, so... *hugs*.

I posted this to you on your thread in SAA but i wanted to make sure you read it, so i am putting here too!

Chris i too think there are many in this situation.

My h does not even know how to use a computer or how to text someone, he carried on his A during the day using his work cell phone that i could not track.

And they did not have much contact at first, the real contact began after the PA started because the EA had already developed at work. They got to see each other every morning and talk on the phone a lot during the day and as far as work knew since they were co-workers located in different parts of the city it was "no big deal" that they were calling each other as they would need to talk during the day for work related stuff, only it wasn't work related. And she was good about leaving her jobsite and going to his jobsite on a daily basis.

And my h was also the perfect h at home too and we were having great sex all the time as well. And he told me he loved me every day, as a matter of fact he acted exactly the same as he always had, until the PA started and then i instantly "knew".

I am telling you this because I do not want you to react "emotionally" but i do not want you to "bury your head in the sand" either.

Thanks Jayne.

I really don't feel it. No blind eye / eyes for me. Also, last night I did a cell phone check and an online cell phone bill check.




That's the plan.


No real names in any of my posts - not even my Username


Thanks so much. I appreciate the support.

Here's a part of last night's conversation which I didn't share - the way the conversation ended. I asked my H if there's anything he'd like to see more of or less of from me. He basically told me he liked what I was doing... I said I had a request for something I would like to see more of, but I was too embarrassed to say it out loud. So, I wrote it on a post it note, folded the post it note up, left it with him, and promptly disappeared.

Later that night my H came to me and told me he was going up to bed. I told him I would be right behind him - I just needed to finish up something on the computer (I was actually finishing a post here LOL.) Well...after about 20 minutes, he called to me from upstairs and asked "Chris, are you coming to bed now?" Keep in mind that just a week or 2 ago, we were not co-sleeping because he was considering whether or not he wanted to stay married. So being the new-and-improved-Chris-on-MB flirt that I am, I asked "Do you want me up there?" He said in a bashful way "Well, I was just checking to see if you were coming up." When I got up there he was *waiting* just like last night, and when things got started I could tell that he was using the request I wrote on that post it note.

SC, thanks for your honesty.

Here are my thoughts: Our interactions have improved SO dramatically and in such a short period of time. I am very happy about that, but I am also a bit skeptical about it too. Frankly, I guess that deep down I didn't expect to see this kind of result for us from MB and I didn't expect to see it in such a short span of time. Seems like it's too good to be true in a way.

I also feel good and bad about this--> On the topic of AO, which is a LB he does on me, he started to have an AO when we were discussing the "privacy in marriage" issue and I firmly said "Please - do not talk to me that way." In response to that, he stopped the AO and we were able to talk about our POVs respectfully from that point. That's the good - because we talked about this before....about him AOing and about me saying NO to it. Here's the bad: He is still stuck on "This is just the way that I talk" with regard to his use of curse words / profanity. I don't like that, and I think he could use some MB training so he can understand exactly what AO is and how it affects a marriage.

My feelings about doing the SF are conflicted too. On one hand I know I should not cherry pick my H's ENs and I should view SF as a legitimate need....giving it as much effort as the other ENs and I have been doing that. (In the thread about SF as an EN, Not2 made SO much sense with this); however, I am still troubled by my discovery of that "Hey baby pretty lady" text, I am upset that he doesn't view his friendship with Ms. Arizona as crossing any lines, and I also feel a little guilty about my snooping.

I know that the snooping is something I have to do, so I am not going to bury my head in the sand SC- I'm going to be doing it. I am going to visually check his work cell phone too. He keeps in in a briefcase by the door - should be easy pickings.

I do believe that if I discover proof of a PA, I will have to call a cease and desist on the SF thing immediately...not necessarily for fear of disease becasue it's definitely too late for that now - but to protect my mental health. In the face of proof that there has been an affair or proof that one is ongoing plus with the knowledge that he looked me in the eyes last night and said he has NEVER cheated on me in the 11 years we have been together, I would suffer too much during the sex act(s) to see it (them) through.

Again, thank you. I will not be burying my head.

Mark,

I re-read your comment a few times. You're right. The trick is to gather the data / info while managing my emotions, and time is of the essence.

I would really like help with developing a plan as you said.

I am also thinking that an MB Weekend / MB coaching will give me the oppportunity to address "boundaries" and the friendship with Ms. Arizona and the inappropriate text between him & "pretty lady" without specifically stating I found the text. Is that the way I go if I find nothing?

Another not-so-random thought:

I am not sure if our marriage can be saved if I discover my H is having or has had an affair because - knowing him - he would be so angry that I snooped he would try to make it all about that rather than what he has done. Although that's a common and expected reaction for WHs and WWs and we here @ MB have a "plan of action" for that, I am not sure I could take that insult along with the original injuries and keep going with this marriage. This reasoning still applies if there is nothing found and I feel like I have to confront him about the text message I found.

Does anyone have any input about that?

It CAN survive....Just take a look-see at the Recovery Forum and the many fine VETS around here.


.......THAT'S what MY H said. And every other silly Wayward line from the "Guide to Waywardness". And EVERY wayward gets over it. Once a person becomes inficted with Wardwarditous, their brains are so mushy that they shout such perverbial idiodicities that they can't keep up with they said.....



Ahhhhhhh...now THAT is the truer issue. Whether or not YOU can handle him having had an affair. The thing is you will go through a roller-coaster of emotions. The best thing I can advise is not to make any rash decisions. Just because you find out he's having an affair today, doesn't mean you have to file for a divorce tomorrow.....Like Schoolbus has on her siggy line...."I can get a divorce anytime, but I only have today to work on my marriage"....or something to the effect.

If you find out he's having an affair, we will help you with what YOU are dealing with. And I would support your decision no matter what you decide.

BUT, first, let's find out what's really going on.....

No sense in "borrowing troubles".....



Funny you ask. Dr. H just sent out a newletter titled..."Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage?"....

Here's the link.....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

not2fun

I had my first session of IC today. My therapist is working to continue the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with me. Basically it's a limitted number of sessions where the therapist & patient work on the Stimulus -> Thought-> Feelings / Emotions dynamic with a focus on the "Thought" portion. And, it was EXTREMELY helpful. We discussed some situations IRL which I have experienced IRL and talked about how my thoughts affected my feelings about the situation. We talked about reframing my thoughts. Here's some info about it:
http://counsellingresource.com/types/cognitive-therapy/
http://www.nacbt.org/whatiscbt.htm



Now...((taking a deep breath)) here's something I'm fairly certain you guys will 2x4 me on:

I had some time to kill before the therapy appointment... so I decided to go to the local Bookstore / Coffee Shoppe WITHOUT MY WEDDING RING ON. Yes...I deliberately took it off & placed it in my purse before getting out of the vehicle and I recall hoping that the that the tan line from my ring was not too obvious. My plan was to get a book and a snack, sit & read while looking cute, and see if men would approach me.

I went into the Shoppe...4 men "noticed" me right away, 3 of them looked and looked, but one had the guts to strike up a conversation with me. The man was attractive with bright blue eyes. We talked for about 45 minutes, he made sure I knew he was divorced two times in the conversation (i did not react to the info), and then I left feeling rather full of myself. What I did not feel was guilt.

I have NEVER done anything like this in the 12 years i have known my Husband. NEVER.

In the last 15 minutes of the session I spoke with my therapist about what happened in the the Shoppe as well as what has happened within the last few weeks with our marriage & I briefly described the MB program which I told her seemed to improve things dramatically. (BTW She likes the idea on the MB program because it's behavior based.)

She asked me how I felt just before I did that. I told her I didn't stop to "feel" anything - I just knew I wanted to do it and so I did. She said it looks like I am trying to sabotage my own efforts to save my marriage now that I can see improvements. She said she has seen this before (gave some very compelling examples) & next time I should stop and try to think about what my motives are before taking an action like that one. Stop to acknowledge my feelings (Resentment & possible Fear of Intimacy) without taking any action.

I will try, but for some reason it's very tempting to continue to do this. It seems like harmless fun in a way. An escape maybe...I don't know. From what I know about MB, I have the knowledge that it's inappropriate but I still want to do it. I am actually @ a library right now - didn't feel like going home.

Ok...so I am ready for some brutal 2 x 4ing.((shielding my face))

Why?

That's a VERY good question Markos...I have no answer. My therapist had the same question and i was unable to provide an answer...Perhaps you could tell me.

Well, ok I'll take a stab at it...you are growing increasingly convinced that your husband is in an EA if not a PA. You wanted to assure yourself that you could still get a man even if your husband doesn't want you anymore. In other words, you wanted assurance that "you still got it".

So, now that you have this information what will you do with it?

I agree with the other poster that you need to more agressively to discover whether he is in an affair.

Meh...I don't think so Happy. Don't need to take the ring off for that. Hound dogs are everywhere. Believe me.

Why? better duck!!

Maybe you wanted to feel what it was like....

TO HAVE NO BOUNDARIES!!!!!!!

You know...... you're ready to adopt a wayward mentality of entitlement and abuse!

Cheapen your character!

Eliminate standards, I mean who needs standards, right?

You can be married and act single, Who's gonna know?


Geezeeee, get a grip girl!!!

Put your ring on, pull up your big girl pants and go home!

I'm home now tst...

My H greeted me at the door with a hug and a kiss, just like when we parted ways this morning. I didn't feel guilty at all. I must be in the numbness cycle of my emotional rollercoaster.

Got in some UA w/ my H this evening...we had dinner and talked, then we watched TV a little.

I know what I did was not right and I am sure than I would never take it any farther.