Thanks guys, I really do appreciate the support. I know its supposed to be his way to channel, but I just cant not read his stuff. I am soo soo paranoid. I have to know EVERYTHING, just to feel any sense of security. Like I told him, he lost the right to ANY and ALL privacy when he decided to be so deceptive in the first place, and if he cant live with that then he needs to leave. I have told him this several times. Besides, he has his IC for saying things in private. So its not like he has NOWHERE to spew his dumb thoughts. I totally understand where your comming from. I am just having a hard time. I am trying very hard to soften myself. I have not broken anything or hit him for a long time now, So I feel like that is some progress on my part. I guess, since I am not getting my anger out by doing that stuff anymore, I am trying to find a way to channel it someplace else, so it ends up on here. I hope your right I would like to think I would spot him slipping a mile away, but I feel like I was soooo sooo stupid before, not to see what was right in front of me, that what if I miss it next time. What if I find out by getting a disease? I am soo soo terrified. I REALLY REALLY want to make this work. I really miss the love and affection we once shared, but like I said before when I even try to get that back, my mind floods with the thoughts of what he did. I am trying so so hard, but just no affection yet. I know it takes a long time. I realize that. I do feel like I am making alot of progress with my temper at home though.

I totally get what you're saying about feeling a need to know EVERYTHING, and I'm still going to recommend staying off his thread.

If you do go on it anyway, then do not use that info against him. Don't blow up at him if you don't like what he said. Bring it onto your own thread, and let us help you with it. Please believe me that any foggy baloney he brings out will have a short shelf life here.

To clarify about knowing if he's cheating, you probably wouldn't see that big of a difference right now. Which of course is why you know instinctively you need to watch him like a hawk, to make sure he's not pulling a fast one.

After he's been fog-free for a while and you can see and appreciate the difference, *that's* when you'll be able to tell right away. For now, just keep watching. Don't let it rule your thoughts completely, but be vigilant.

You're off to a good start. Continue to work on channeling AO's into calm sharing, and take excellent care of your body and health.

Would you also consider seeing a CSAT of your own or attending a 12-step group for yourself? How do you think you'd feel about having fellowship of other women to call on, IRL?

I am seeing a counselor individually. As for Group therepy, I just went back to work from having a baby, and he already is going planning on going to meetings, we have a six year old with a very busy schedule. Its too hard for both of us to find time for meetings. Also, I feel like if we fill our schedules with all these meetings, all the time, we are taking away from our family time. I am doing the IC and marriage counseling for now, he is doing the IC and marriage counseling, and has attended SAA meetings. I think for now that will have to do. I know I am having a hard time dealing, but the biggest threat to our marriage right now is if he slips, so we need to get him on the right track. I have dealt with alot of bad things in my life...physical abuse by my dad, date rape ect...I never went to counseling for any of that, and I did fine. This is the first time I have had a hard time coping. I cant figure out why this is so hard when I have had things that were just as traumatic happen before and overcame it. Maybe because my husband was the one man I felt I had found that I could trust completely. In my mind, I had escaped a horrid life, and he was my savior. Now that all this has happend I am really lost and shattered. I feel I have No one in this life that wont hurt me and will keep me safe. I can only truely trust myself and right now, I dont even trust that. I feel like I have let myself down by staying. I have never before given ANYONE a second chance. If I got burned, I set the bridge on fire. So its like I really cant figure out why I am putting up with any of this. I really want to believe he is committed to fixing himself and this marriage, but now I am sooo soo afraid to trust in that.

Navwife,

Infidelity can be the worst trauma that a person goes through. There are few events that will compare(loss of a child is one).



You pretty much nailed it. The one person who we trusted with our lives was the one who hurt and betrayed us the worst. And it was their CHOICE to do it. We also feel we let ourselves down. We thought we knew this person. We thought we were smart enough not to get hurt like this, but we weren't. Lots of thoughts. Lots of anger. Learn to forgive yourself. It'll take awhile.

We've all been there and honestly I think self forgiveness was the last step I took. But there were many steps and you're at the beginning. TRY to go easy on yourself. This was not YOUR choice, you played no role in this.

And for the record, after sorting through all the emotions day in and day out, anger lingered the longest and was the hardest to rid myself of. This is usually the norm. So your "job" is to express it without AOs and without punishment. Yeah I know that's a tall order. But if a R M is what you want then you have to work towards that goal. Don't sabotage your own efforts.

(((navewife))))

Look into attending COSA meetings...like Al-anon for SA's.

Right now meetings are hard. He has his SAA and my daughter has scouts, and I have a 4 month old. We are going through bankrupcy which will be over in June, and so will school. I am hoping that once school is out and I dont have the pressures of homework, and scout meetings ect.. and the whole bankrupcy thing is not hangning over my head I will be in a better place to deal with some of this stuff. I am feeling extremly overwhelmed right now. I just cant take on anymore stuff...even if it is for me. I am just plain tapped out. I am just praying he is telling the truth when he says he loves me, and hoping that he will help keep me from falling out. He has been taking care of me since Dday. Making sure every thing around the house is done, setting out my meds in the morning so I dont forget to take them, reminding me of appointments. I am trying to take care of myself, but I am finding it soo soo hard. especially with the new baby, sometimes I wonder if I am having post pardem along with all this other stuff I am dealing with. I just feel so overwhelmed. I am having issues with why he cant feel like he can be completely open with me. He said he started chatting with the Ow because she didnt judge him and didnt care he was married, he could tell her everything, even his "freak" manstuff side, and she didnt care. That would be fine, back then, but how bout now, now when I know all of the dispicable stuff he did, and yet still decided to stay by his side, ...why is he still not opening up to me like he did the tramps??? I almost feel that the fact that he still cant open up to me says that he really doesnt love me. I mean, I love him, I hide NOTHING from him. He knows all my dreams, fears, opinions, thoughts and feelings. I dont hide anything from him, and I dont have to try to do these things, they just come natural. When I have to pull information out of him, I get so pissed because I feel like he shouldnt have to be coaxed in to telling me things. Even if its something I know I will be upset about...all I want is the truth. Good, bad , or ugly, I feel I LONG for the truth. Why could he share all of himself with them and still cant do it with me?

Try something new. Every single day, ask your husband to tell you something he would normally keep from you (and tell to other people including other women).

Ask him to tell you everything he would tell others. Tell him that when he feels like "spilling his guts" to someone, to call you up, text you, and immediately tell you the thing he was going to tell others.

Make sure you do ask him every day to open up to you until he gets into the habit of doing this.

I have told him that since dday, and he still bottled something up. That is what upset me so much. He didnt necessarily want to tell anyone else, he just had thoughts, that he didnt want me to know about. I have asked him everyday, and he didnt tell me till the other day when he put something on his thread that made me finally pull it out of him. I will tell him about the calling or texting me immediately and see if he thinks that will help. He says he will be honest with me from now on, and not try to tell me what he only wants me to see. I dont have much trust in that though. I told him he is going to have thoughts and stuff I wont like and probably throw a fit about, but I think if I am hearing it and he is telling me before he goes and slips up because he shares it with the wrong people, we might be able to get passed this. After the despicable things he has done and the way he lied to me about them, I need nothing but brutal honesty now. Thats all I want.

Maybe naveguy needs to understand something about women:

When we care enough to fight *with* you and *for* you, it means - yeah, it means we stil care.

When we go silent and don't bother you about things anymore (which is what men often think they want), it means we have by god Given Up because it's just too painful to deal with you for one second longer.

He might want to be sure of which one he really wants.

Your husband seems very immature and has a lot of problems. Can you stand to live with the way he is? He is sexually dirty. I am sorry but this kind of man....can you live with it?

You are having babies and working and he is trying out new exciting sex things with other people. This seems unfair. Is he a househusband? You know...bored?

navewife, people will not be honest with others if they will be punished for it. And by punished I mean yelled out. Kids will tell a lie so they don't get yelled at, well, so will adults. If you want honesty from him you cannot yell at him for it. You have to make it safe for him to to do it.

He's going to tell you stuff that you're not going to like. So how will you REACT? Are you going to stay calm and allow him to do it, thank him for being honest and then think about what he just said? Or are you going to blow up on him? This is the dynamic that YOU can change in this M. He doesn't feel comfortable with you and I could even guess that he is/was afraid of your response. Make it safe for him to be honest. Don't go ballistic, STAY CALM. If it is devastating news, STILL say calm. Take it in or ask to discuss it later if it is too difficult to hear. Thank him and come HERE to vent.

Hang in there. It does get easier. Promise. ((((navewife))))

Michele, I just dont know that I can do that. I am not one to bottle up anything. I am and have always been brutally honest. The way I see it. This is me, this is the person he married. I told him that he needs to be brutally honest with me. If there are things I dont like ( and I am sure there are) ,then let me be the one to decided if I can deal with them or not. There is no sense in trying to save this marriage by holding back anything, on either side. The way I feel is that if he tells me things I dont like I may blow up, but it may be something I can accept and deal with or at least deal with him and communicate about, but if he holds back because he wants me to see him a certain way,then we are just right back to where he started these affairs in the first place. I should get to decide if what he shares with me is something I can live with or not. If what he shares with me makes me angry or uncomfortable, then at least I can make the decision on if I can live with that. If I blow up and he cant handle, or if I cant help or support his thoughts, and he cant live with it, then maybe we have no buisness being married. I really feel that both of us SHOULD be REAL with each other not tiptoeing around each other. Like I said if neither one of us can deal with each others truthes then maybe that is a sign that we dont need to be with each other. That is how I feel.

Yes he should be honest. That's what got him into this mess in the first place. And yes, YOU should be the one to decide if you can handle the information or not. He doesn't have the right to withhold anything. With that being said it's still a matter of human nature.

You want the information.
You have a right to the truth.

It'll be easier for YOU to attain that goal if you can stay calm when he tells you things. If you can stay calm once, the chance is higher that when he should tell you something else, he will.



((((navewife))))

navewife - here is a link that I sent to your husband. It's an old MB thread on Passive/Aggressive (P/A) behaviour.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=622389&page=1

You might want to look at this, because I think it's what you're dealing with.

It may be no accident that the things he DOES tell you about just happen to be the ones that cause you to blow your top.

P/A people are very much invested in remaining VICTIMS.

Why? Because if you're a victim, then nothing is your fault and you will therefore not have any consequences.

The P/A behaviour drives their spouse crazy, but that's good because then they get to be the poor poor victim of their mean crazy spouse.

This is called "button-pushing". You are going to have to move your buttons so he can't push them anymore. There is more about this in the thread.

Just wanted to tell you again that I am praying for you, that God gives you the strength you need to get through this. Just know that you have people who care and understand. i know it helps me to be reminded of that now and again.

Thanks Half unit, yes it does help to be reminded of all the support here. Sometimes I just get frustrated and feel lost, because while there are so many people here who can relate to the affair aspect, I have yet to find anyone whos spouse is as screwed up as mine, meaning the whole woman and MAN thing. He had both a PA & EA with OW and then all the PA with the MEN. I just feel very alone in this sick world my husband has shoved me in to. I pray everyday and just hope my prayers are answered quickly, sometimes I just dont know how much more I can really take. I made the misteak of trying to have sex with him last night. We had not in the last 2 months, because I couldnt deal with the mind movies, and thoughts while we were intimate, so I just stopped but last night he was soo persistant, and I froze, I didnt tell him no , but didnt really go all in either, I was just there, letting it happen. Today, I had a really bad day. I regretted doing everything. How long will this last. I am really scared I am going to destroy anything I am trying to save. arrgg

NW, there were several times that H and I were in the middle of SF after my A that he just had to stop, couldn't do it. The movies, the hurt, were just too much at that moment. It is OKAY to feel this way. We would just stop what we were doing, talk if he needed to, or I would tell him again that I was so sorry, and let him have space. I think post A is the one time that SF is a privilege - not an EN that the WS can expect to have met at any time. We temporarily gave up that "right" when we cheated.

Thank you for that, I hope he is committed as he says. I just feel like all this talk of sex addiction, he will stray if I dont give in, but I am learning that I just cant do it. I am going to have to be ready before I can take that step I guess. But I appreciate your sharing.God Bless

aw, navewife - please don't fall into that trap. Surely you have already learned that you can't "make" somebody do the right thing through *your* actions.

If one partner chooses not to meet the ENs of their spouse - with or without an affair in the picture - then the spouse has the right to do two things:

1) Work with their partner to make things better,

or

2) End the relationship and walk away.

They do not have the right to "stray", although it is a fact that many people believe they do. It's almost like there's an unspoken piece of conventional wisdom that "everybody" knows about that "if you ain't gettin' it at home, you got the right to get it somewhere else."

And if somebody is caught cheating, the first thing everybody else says is, "Well, they must not a been gettin' what they wanted at home. What can you do? It's not THEIR fault. It's their spouses fault for not givin' 'em what they needed."

I'll bet you can just hear your family and friends saying that about naveguy - "well, if she wouldn't give him what he wanted - "

Again, please do not fall for that.

I grew up in Texas and I can remember a time when drunk driving was socially acceptable, too. Somebody could kill a whole family out on the freeway and the *defense* would be, "Well, he didn't wanna hurt nobody, but he couldn't help it. He was drunk."

I'm not kidding about this.

I hope we get to a time when such wretched excuses are no longer socially acceptable in marriage, either.

And in the meantime, realize that you CANNOT keep him from "straying". He is the only one who can do that. You will meet his ENs if and when you can. The rest is up to him. No more "drunk marriage defense" for him or for any other WS.