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Originally Posted by Vittoria
While I understand what you are saying DNM, this part I see differently. I think there has to be some level of remorse to begin R.

I guess it depends on your definition of "recovery". Dr. Harley defines the beginning of recovery as the end of withdrawal from he lover. Here's something he has to say on the subject of remorse from the wayward:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed. I suggested that he avoid the subject of regret unless Sue chose to express it. Instead, I wanted him to focus on what they both needed to do to meet each other's emotional needs and become more thoughtful of each other's feelings.

Sue was not unusual. It's very common for the wayward spouse to not feel remorse. And it's common for the betrayed spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple are ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both see the other has having been very selfish and they see themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something when you feel it was the other person's fault?

I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair. Of course, if remorse is actually felt by a spouse, I encourage that spouse to express it. I would like the wayward spouse to apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust and for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. But I would also like the betrayed spouse to apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that he or she had promised at the time of marriage, even if the failure was out of ignorance.

These words were what it took to get my recovery started. I expected remorse, regret, and deep sadness for the pain my wife inflicted on us, and instead all I got was justification, rationalization, and pleadings of innocence. She finally expressed remorse -- not just for hurting me, but for what she did that caused this incident in our marriage -- about five months after the No-Contact day.

And I, in turn, apologized for my role in not meeting her needs in so many ways, and vowed to do what I could to meet her needs and avoid all Love-Busting behaviors in the future.

And that is working.


Quote
No remorse to me equals a WS who isn't willing to agree to NC, change the environment that set the stage for an A, or follow EP's.


That described my wife to a Tee before no-contact day. Some affairs end, like my wife's did, more because the AP stopped responding to her advances. And EP's were only submitted to grudgingly because it took a period of separation from the lover before she finally realized I was her only sure thing, and he had apparently left her life forever.

This is where she WAS, not where she IS now. We went through months of hell before she really got on-board with the whole MarriageBuilders thing, read SAA, and understood where I was coming from. It was after reading SAA four months after NC-day that she finally admitted remorse for how she acted, and realized that developing this "friendship" with the OM was her first error. And she's been excellent about policing her own EPs since then... and mine, too wink

Last edited by Doormat_No_More; 05/16/10 11:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Maybe you hear it in my posts and I'm not recognizing it as such. IDK.

I don't think I'm hearing anything different, just making an inference by "following the bread crumbs."

First this,

Originally Posted by Vittoria
I'm stuck, or I think I am, sorta, maybe

Which seems to be caused by this

Originally Posted by Vittoria
Right now, he's a great H that I love and believe in, but he's not someone that I feel is not a threat to me in the future.

Which you seem to believe is caused by this.

Originally Posted by Vittoria
I just don't see the repentance there that I need to exist.

Which you seem to be questioning whether that is caused by this.

Originally Posted by Vittoria
The biggest struggles that we've had during R on his side, I believe are related to this lack of self honesty about himself. Maybe.

Which, I guess if I reword, seems to be saying, if he would be more introspective, he would demonstrate repentence, which would alleviate your fears and allow you to be unstuck. I may be wrong, but this just seems like a scenario that would tend to create resentment. Especially so, if your brain ever concludes that he's doing this on purpose, so to speak. FWIW, many times, I have felt the same way.

I think Broken's post is spot on in asking what are you looking for. Maybe there are certain actions you need to see that demostrate reprentence. It's also possible to take that up a level. Maybe you don't need to see repentence as much as you need to see things that make you feel safe. Meaning you are perhaps speculating that observable repentence will make you feel safe, but maybe something else will accomplish this task.

Understanding that is probably important, given Doormat's Harley citation noting that repentence is not neccessarily a recovery requirement.

I may ramble a bit, but here is how I relate to a little of what you are posting. My first response on d-day was really about what did I do wrong. So, I read books, I came here, I went to therapy, did a lot of soul searching, etc. At first, I was like most people and was really looking for a way to get my wife back. But, my FWW really drug her feet about recovery. So it really became more and more about me trying to be a better person.

I think that there are two drivers of observable changes in people. The first, I would call objective oriented changes. The second, I would call principle oriented changes. It's the difference between acting like a good person in order to get something versus being a good person regardless of what happens. Now, I think making the first kind of change is really simple, requires little introspection, and isn't sustainable because once what someone wanted is obtained, the change goes away. The second one is harder to do, requires more work, but is much more sustainable.

To try and give a real world example, I used to have AO's. I said them to hurt my FWW's feelings. My FWW pointed this out to me. My therapist pointed this out to me. Initially, I responded by thinking I was justified in my actions, but I was also smart enough to realize that my FWW wasn't coming back if I kept being mean. I could have easily stopped there and decided, well I'll be nice enough to get her back, but then whatever happens from there happens. But I didn't, I really considered it, thought about it and decided that there is no reason for me to have AO's. I made a change in my behavior because it was the right thing to do and I didn't care whether it caused my FWW to return or not. Either way, I wasn't going to be that way. My FWW knows this, and I think it gives her a great deal of confidence that it won't happen again.

I sometimes think this is the process that a BS is really looking for in order to feel safe. For the FWS to step beyond that level of just following the program into actually believing the principles. (Maybe not even the MB principles, but some sort of principles that allow us to predict what they will do in the future). It allows the BS to feel safe that the FWS is not just making these changes to weather the storm, but has really decided to be a better partner. Intuitively, we know/suspect that can't happen without some major introspection and some major revelations. When we don't see that, we remain feeling unsafe.


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Originally Posted by rprynne
Understanding that is probably important, given Doormat's Harley citation noting that repentence is not neccessarily a recovery requirement.

Caveat: Different religions have differing meanings of the word "repentance". The Christian sense usually requires an admission of guilt, apology and restitution to those affected, and a promise to not repeat the behavior in the future.

For a strict orthodox Jew, repentance may require sackcloth and ashes.

To the nonbeliever, it may very well only mean regret for one's actions.

I think we betrayed spouses are often expecting repentance to include apology, restitution, and admission of guilt, when the only thing the wayward is able to give at the beginning of recovery, or in the state of withdrawal pre-recovery, is a promise not to repeat the behavior, and regret for hurting their spouse.


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Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
I think we betrayed spouses are often expecting repentance to include apology, restitution, and admission of guilt, when the only thing the wayward is able to give at the beginning of recovery, or in the state of withdrawal pre-recovery, is a promise not to repeat the behavior, and regret for hurting their spouse.

I agree that most define it this way.

I guess I wonder, if repentance is what BS's really want or do they want what it appears to demonstrate. Repentence is generally evidence of change. When I read the Harley comment, I somewhat infer that it is best to care about the actual change, rather than the evidence of the change.


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Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
These words were what it took to get my recovery started. I expected remorse, regret, and deep sadness for the pain my wife inflicted on us, and instead all I got was justification, rationalization, and pleadings of innocence. She finally expressed remorse -- not just for hurting me, but for what she did that caused this incident in our marriage -- about five months after the No-Contact day.
I can't remember exactly how long after NC, it was more than 5 months, my H expressed that remorse too, and I saw it in his face. I felt it, if that makes any sense.
Here's what I'm dealing with now, I'm seeing, not only through his words, but some of his actions, lack of 100% responsibility for the A, IB with DH via just not telling me,
and a " I can't believe you don't believe me " when I expressed how I felt about the LB's I've just mentioned.
It seems like he's gone backwards, or has he, I don't think the 'me' mentality has ever left. I think it has just been suppressed long enough to soothe me and satisfy him
that he has done his part.
IOWs, it has become inconvenient to remain the 'repentant' WS, this is how I see it.
I don't see this sort of behaviour all the time, it comes in spurts, then he is the loving and doting H. So there lies my confusion, I get stuck in skeptical mode.

Quote
And I, in turn, apologized for my role in not meeting her needs in so many ways, and vowed to do what I could to meet her needs and avoid all Love-Busting behaviors in the future.
I've done this also, I've acknowledged to my H how I contributed to the weak M, and I've apologized to him.
Like you, I think this is an important aspect to restoring the M to a new and better one.
I feel like if I didn't recognize my lousy half, I wouldn't make a very good R partner. I'm speaking of my M specifically.

Quote
Some affairs end, like my wife's did, more because the AP stopped responding to her advances. And EP's were only submitted to grudgingly because it took a period of separation from the lover before she finally realized I was her only sure thing, and he had apparently left her life forever.
And you know what, sometimes I wonder if it makes a difference how the A ends. If the WS confesses on their own,
they are willing to take the consequences and truly hope to rebuild the M, as opposed to a WS that is caught, and feels pressured/guilt to go through the steps towards R.
It doesn't really matter I guess, the plan is the same, but does the fog take longer to lift, is the length of the A a factor ......

Quote
This is where she WAS, not where she IS now. We went through months of hell before she really got on-board with the whole MarriageBuilders thing, read SAA, and understood where I was coming from. It was after reading SAA four months after NC-day that she finally admitted remorse for how she acted, and realized that developing this "friendship" with the OM was her first error. And she's been excellent about policing her own EPs since then... and mine, too wink
This is great, I can say most of this about my H too, minus the 'excellent'.

Maybe this thread should be Can MB influence the expected repentance of the BS????

Thanks for that quote by the Dr., I've read it before but unless I can relate to it at the time, it doesn't always sink in the same way.
Good chat DNM.


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Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by Vittoria
Maybe you hear it in my posts and I'm not recognizing it as such. IDK.

I don't think I'm hearing anything different, just making an inference by "following the bread crumbs."
rprynne, you have put everything in my head in perfect order through this whole post.
I've already printed it out for a reference.

I agree 100% with how you see, what I am looking for.

thank you.




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Originally Posted by Vittoria
I can't remember exactly how long after NC, it was more than 5 months, my H expressed that remorse too, and I saw it in his face. I felt it, if that makes any sense.

I think I only "feel" it when I'm in Intimacy. When I'm in Conflict, anger rears its ugly head again and I resent. As Dr. Harley counsels, though, if you only resent your spouse when your needs are going unmet or your wayward spouse is Love-Busting you, it's completion of Recovery that's the problem, not resentment.

So how often I "feel" the change from my spouse, I think, is a really good indicator of how well she's taking care of me at the moment. And the solution to when I feel she isn't taking care of me well enough is Radical Honesty, to say what I think is going wrong, Thoughtful Requests to improve our ability to meet one another's needs, and Respectful Persuasion to help her see the necessity of improvement. And typically, when I try to persuade her, the persuasion ends up going both ways because there are things I'm doing or not doing that need changing, too...

Quote
Here's what I'm dealing with now, I'm seeing, not only through his words, but some of his actions, lack of 100% responsibility for the A, IB with DH via just not telling me

Solution: Jennifer Harley Chalmers asked us to sit down every night at 8:33 PM to discuss our feelings for the day. It was in the context of journaling, but it has become our tradition to spend 10-15 minutes discussing the major events of the day, particularly anything that will have any impact on our spouse.

We have a lot more time elsewhere, but this time every day, started with the statement "Tell me about your feelings today" or "Did you journal today?" is an open invitation to make sure that any IB is accounted for.

Quote
...and a " I can't believe you don't believe me " when I expressed how I felt about the LB's I've just mentioned.

How would you feel about approaching it differently? Rather than talking about how hurt you are, what do you think about expressing it like this?

"Honey, I would love it if I were included in your decision-making when you are away from me. How would you feel about calling me when you're about to make important decisions that affect both of us like these?"

Invitation to discussion. POJA.


Quote
It seems like he's gone backwards, or has he, I don't think the 'me' mentality has ever left. I think it has just been suppressed long enough to soothe me and satisfy him
that he has done his part.

Three States Of Marriage. What state are you in? What state is he in? Chances are good his Taker is on overdrive right now because he's not in Intimacy, and that's what drives Independent Behavior. How do you draw one another into Intimacy again? If you do, he'll instinctively make decisions that protect you, and take to reasonable suggestions for change like a duck to water. If he's in Conflict, you'll have a very hard time persuading him of anything at all.

My wife has a technique that works really well on me: she waits until the morning after we've made love (or a few hours afterward) to Respectfully Persuade me of things. This helps her be sure I'm in a state of Intimacy, because SF is my #1 EN. I, in turn, try to really chat her up and show extra affection to ensure she's in Intimacy before I bring up difficult subjects, too.

It's important to not delay Radical Honesty for a convenient time, but I think that efforts at Thoughtful Requests and Respectful Persuasion, on the other hand, do work better if timed well to ensure both are in a state of Intimacy.

Quote
I don't see this sort of behaviour all the time, it comes in spurts, then he is the loving and doting H. So there lies my confusion, I get stuck in skeptical mode.

If you're remaining skeptical most of the time, he's not doing well meeting your needs and avoiding LBs. Identify the specific LBs he engages in regularly, even the small ones, and use the techniques in the "Love Busters" book to help change those together. Also figure out how he could better meet your emotional needs, because you need to keep those deposits flowing, and encourage him to meet them with "I'd love it if" and "How would you feel about..." sentences.

Quote
And you know what, sometimes I wonder if it makes a difference how the A ends. If the WS confesses on their own,
they are willing to take the consequences and truly hope to rebuild the M, as opposed to a WS that is caught, and feels pressured/guilt to go through the steps towards R.

ABSOLUTELY. My FWW was caught. She didn't think she deserved any of the treatment she received. She didn't feel it was necessary. In fact, she thought that she deserved my thanks for not sleeping with him, despite having the opportunity to do so. And she didn't feel that her having seriously discussed how to divorce me and marry him was that big a deal.

Quote
It doesn't really matter I guess, the plan is the same, but does the fog take longer to lift, is the length of the A a factor...

Yep. The way out is the same. It's hard to believe the FWW I love, napping in the bed next to my chair as I work from home, is the same WW who, 10 months ago, was lying to me every day about not contacting OM just seconds after sending him loving emails and suggestions that if they had just managed to keep the secret better, everything would have been OK.

Quote
This is great, I can say most of this about my H too, minus the 'excellent'.

My phrase when my FWW has trespassed EPs has been "When I learn X, I feel Y." Like "When I learn that you've been hiding photos of OM from me, I feel very unsafe in this marriage and very depressed." Have you tried those kinds of statements in hopes of helping him recognize his Love-Busting behaviors?

Quote
Thanks for that quote by the Dr., I've read it before but unless I can relate to it at the time, it doesn't always sink in the same way.

Exact same. If it ain't relevant to me right now, it tends to get glossed over. Which is why I read really important books over and over again.


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Originally Posted by broken_soul
Vit - I've kind of skimmed through this post, so I apologize in advance if this has been covered already.

What is it you're looking for from your H? Has he apologized at all, has he taken steps to clean up his side of the street? Assuming for a moment he has done those things, what would repentance from him look like? What specific behaviors are you looking for from him, that you aren't getting?

hug
I'm sorry broken soul, you had a specific and a really good question, that I've not answered.
I needed to think on it and put the specifics into categories.
In general, verbally acknowledging responsibility for 100% of the A, following EP's without giving excuses, no negotiation of what his boundaries should be,
and apologizing to our families, most specifically our kids. I wasn't the only one that he scoured at, was lied to or time was taken away from.
Over the years, the kids and I were without the father and husband that he has slowly become.

You know, it's hard to explain, I hate to rag about him since he has made great strides. There's a tug there that I can't let go of.
The risk of ignoring it, is too great.
The risk of repeated hurtful behaviour is too great, and I'm not just speaking of another A.
I want my family protected, 100%.

We are still less than 2yrs. out from d-day, and to his credit, he still has sessions with the MB coach. This is great and I tell him that.
I am purposefully avoiding more talks about this apology right now, what I wanted from all of you was to sort out my frustration,
and gain some insight. Calm me down, KWIM.

We have time on our side and I do believe that this can all be fixed.

How's that!




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Just wanted to expand on a couple of these points.

Originally Posted by rprynne
I may ramble a bit, but here is how I relate to a little of what you are posting. My first response on d-day was really about what did I do wrong. So, I read books, I came here, I went to therapy, did a lot of soul searching, etc. At first, I was like most people and was really looking for a way to get my wife back. But, my FWW really drug her feet about recovery. So it really became more and more about me trying to be a better person.
This was my response after d-day too. H was not fully on board with R, he was still lying for four months and simply trying to cover his a$$. What effort he did, was from guilt
of being caught. Wow, this is like looking back on movie that you couldn't understand while watching it, but watching it again, it's clear as a bell.
This explains my repentance/amends, I felt that I needed to do for my 50% of the weak M.

Quote
I think that there are two drivers of observable changes in people. The first, I would call objective oriented changes. The second, I would call principle oriented changes. It's the difference between acting like a good person in order to get something versus being a good person regardless of what happens. Now, I think making the first kind of change is really simple, requires little introspection, and isn't sustainable because once what someone wanted is obtained, the change goes away. The second one is harder to do, requires more work, but is much more sustainable.
Totally understand and believe this. This is what I couldn't put into words as good as what you have.
My H, I believe is the first, (change to get good, little introspection).
I am the second one, in progress!

And like I said, the rest of your post, spot on.




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Originally Posted by Vittoria
I am the second one, in progress!

How much of this progress do you share with your FWS?

I think DoNoMo had some good points. I also think sharing your thoughts and beliefs with your FWS can be a solid way to elicit evidence of the introspection that you seek.

What I mean is perhaps rather than asking him what he thinks about life, relationships, etc., start talking about what you think and let him respond. I would also say you probably get better results if you can keep it off of your personal MB/recovery topics. For example, if you've just read a good book, talking about the moral dilemas of some of the characters can lead to some insight about your FWS.


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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Originally Posted by broken_soul
Vit - I've kind of skimmed through this post, so I apologize in advance if this has been covered already.

What is it you're looking for from your H? Has he apologized at all, has he taken steps to clean up his side of the street? Assuming for a moment he has done those things, what would repentance from him look like? What specific behaviors are you looking for from him, that you aren't getting?

hug
I'm sorry broken soul, you had a specific and a really good question, that I've not answered.
I needed to think on it and put the specifics into categories.
In general, verbally acknowledging responsibility for 100% of the A, following EP's without giving excuses, no negotiation of what his boundaries should be,
and apologizing to our families, most specifically our kids. I wasn't the only one that he scoured at, was lied to or time was taken away from.
Over the years, the kids and I were without the father and husband that he has slowly become.

You know, it's hard to explain, I hate to rag about him since he has made great strides. There's a tug there that I can't let go of.
The risk of ignoring it, is too great.
The risk of repeated hurtful behaviour is too great, and I'm not just speaking of another A.
I want my family protected, 100%.

We are still less than 2yrs. out from d-day, and to his credit, he still has sessions with the MB coach. This is great and I tell him that.
I am purposefully avoiding more talks about this apology right now, what I wanted from all of you was to sort out my frustration,
and gain some insight. Calm me down, KWIM.

We have time on our side and I do believe that this can all be fixed.

How's that!

No apology needed - I knew those were questions that would take some time to ponder. They were intended to do that. smile

I think the things you're needing right now are legit. Have you been able to be very concrete with H and told him those things? If you have and he's just refusing to do those things, what then? Have you discussed how it impacts you? Are those things enough to be a line in the sand for you (and that's not a criticism - if it is, then it is)?

I also understand your reluctance to "rag" on him, I felt the very same way when I felt stuck like you do. J had made GREAT strides in so many areas, but still was lacking in some that I really needed.

I can tell you as a FWW myself as well, that with 100% certainty, my EA was my choice. It was my bad boundaries, my failure to keep EP's, my failure to communicate to J. It wasn't his fault. It was MINE. I had other options in how to respond to where my marriage was, and I took the most selfish and easiest option. Was H to blame for his side of the street? Yup. But I and I alone am to blame for the choice I made.

And (as you know), your H needs to come to this realization as well, and REALLY realize it with every fiber of his being. It's like Mark said to me - it's not a single choice - it's a series of choices - maybe even hundreds of them.


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Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
When I'm in Conflict, anger rears its ugly head again and I resent. As Dr. Harley counsels, though, if you only resent your spouse when your needs are going unmet or your wayward spouse is Love-Busting you, it's completion of Recovery that's the problem, not resentment.
This makes sense, and the completion of R for my H is lifting what fog is hanging around.

Quote
So how often I "feel" the change from my spouse, I think, is a really good indicator of how well she's taking care of me at the moment. And the solution to when I feel she isn't taking care of me well enough is Radical Honesty, to say what I think is going wrong, Thoughtful Requests to improve our ability to meet one another's needs, and Respectful Persuasion to help her see the necessity of improvement. And typically, when I try to persuade her, the persuasion ends up going both ways because there are things I'm doing or not doing that need changing, too...
You are good at this DNM, right now, I am not. If we were to have a talk now, I'd be better than I was a month ago, but not good yet. It's still a very sensitive topic.

Quote
Solution: Jennifer Harley Chalmers asked us to sit down every night at 8:33 PM to discuss our feelings for the day. It was in the context of journaling, but it has become our tradition to spend 10-15 minutes discussing the major events of the day, particularly anything that will have any impact on our spouse.

We have a lot more time elsewhere, but this time every day, started with the statement "Tell me about your feelings today" or "Did you journal today?" is an open invitation to make sure that any IB is accounted for.
Sticky noted, thanks.

Quote
How would you feel about approaching it differently? Rather than talking about how hurt you are, what do you think about expressing it like this?

"Honey, I would love it if I were included in your decision-making when you are away from me. How would you feel about calling me when you're about to make important decisions that affect both of us like these?"

Invitation to discussion. POJA.
DNM, some of the issues, like boundaries and EP's, are not up for POJA.
I remember reading about your talks with Jennifer on your thread. Good stuff.


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Three States Of Marriage. What state are you in? What state is he in? Chances are good his Taker is on overdrive right now because he's not in Intimacy, and that's what drives Independent Behavior. How do you draw one another into Intimacy again? If you do, he'll instinctively make decisions that protect you, and take to reasonable suggestions for change like a duck to water. If he's in Conflict, you'll have a very hard time persuading him of anything at all.
Yes, a good reminder of my part and I need those reminders.

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My wife has a technique that works really well on me: she waits until the morning after we've made love (or a few hours afterward) to Respectfully Persuade me of things. This helps her be sure I'm in a state of Intimacy, because SF is my #1 EN. I, in turn, try to really chat her up and show extra affection to ensure she's in Intimacy before I bring up difficult subjects, too.
okay, got it. And you know what, this is where we were at a point last year. Things are clicking in my head, for the good, you've got me thinking.

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It's important to not delay Radical Honesty for a convenient time, but I think that efforts at Thoughtful Requests and Respectful Persuasion, on the other hand, do work better if timed well to ensure both are in a state of Intimacy.
I have a love/hate relationship with RH, the emotional side of it. I know that is something that I need to continue to work on.

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And you know what, sometimes I wonder if it makes a difference how the A ends. If the WS confesses on their own,
they are willing to take the consequences and truly hope to rebuild the M, as opposed to a WS that is caught, and feels pressured/guilt to go through the steps towards R.

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ABSOLUTELY. My FWW was caught. She didn't think she deserved any of the treatment she received. She didn't feel it was necessary. In fact, she thought that she deserved my thanks for not sleeping with him, despite having the opportunity to do so. And she didn't feel that her having seriously discussed how to divorce me and marry him was that big a deal.
I know exactly what you mean. Mark wrote something once about an EA or the EA part of an A is harder for a WS to understand the damage, since there was no sex involved.
To some people, an A is a back room, sex all the time event, they don't see the emotional betrayal side of it. How you view an A, I think affects how you make ammends. Think about it.

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It's hard to believe the FWW I love, napping in the bed next to my chair as I work from home, is the same WW who, 10 months ago, was lying to me every day about not contacting OM just seconds after sending him loving emails and suggestions that if they had just managed to keep the secret better, everything would have been OK.
I'm happy that your R is going well!

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My phrase when my FWW has trespassed EPs has been "When I learn X, I feel Y." Like "When I learn that you've been hiding photos of OM from me, I feel very unsafe in this marriage and very depressed." Have you tried those kinds of statements in hopes of helping him recognize his Love-Busting behaviors?
That could be my goal, although I really don't see myself saying that when an EP is broke. Maybe in time when I'm more calm. wink



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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Just like repentance cannot be forced, neither can forgiveness.
And you know what luri, I know that repentance can't be forced. smile This is my issue to deal with. Just frustrated, no not frustrated, sad is probably a better word.


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And considering I was the one who caused/did what he needed to forgive, it really wasn't my place to tell him when and how to do it. In fact, when I hear someone become more and more concerned about how others should be responding and less and less concerned about what they themselves should be doing....red flags start popping out all over the place.
I agree with you here. To be clear with regards to my H, he doesn't make me feel like I should be over it, or that I should be able to forgive him.
I like your views.


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Originally Posted by broken_soul
Have you been able to be very concrete with H and told him those things? If you have and he's just refusing to do those things, what then? Have you discussed how it impacts you? Are those things enough to be a line in the sand for you (and that's not a criticism - if it is, then it is)?
Yes, I have been able to be concrete in letting him know what it is that I need from him.
The rest b_s that you ask, for now is a waiting game. Yes, I know where my line in the sand is, that seems to be what makes this so difficult.

Have a good weekend everyone! It's May two four !!!!! smile



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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Originally Posted by broken_soul
Have you been able to be very concrete with H and told him those things? If you have and he's just refusing to do those things, what then? Have you discussed how it impacts you? Are those things enough to be a line in the sand for you (and that's not a criticism - if it is, then it is)?
Yes, I have been able to be concrete in letting him know what it is that I need from him.
The rest b_s that you ask, for now is a waiting game. Yes, I know where my line in the sand is, that seems to be what makes this so difficult.

Have a good weekend everyone! It's May two four !!!!! smile

hug


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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Have a good weekend everyone! It's May two four !!!!! smile
Not until after the weekend Vitt, but anyway, why does that date matter?

I thought you Canadians were on our side. Are you celebrating strange north American holidays now?


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I don't know if this fits here, but one thing to me that is a sign of true repentance is the laying aside of impatience and pride. When I truly saw what I had done and how horrific it was without any qualifications....something in me knew that there was NO room for pride, for scorekeeping about how "good" I was doing, for impatience about how long this recovery stuff was going to take. My affair rendered me unqualified to make those judgments. So when I see people who start pushing the "how long," "when is my BS going to do/stop doing this?" "I'm doing everything right, but...." agenda....I question gut level repentance. I just do. And if I do, I KNOW a BS is going to question it. It just really isn't my job to decide how long it takes someone Else to grieve.

Okay, I just needed to vent that.

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Vittoria
Have a good weekend everyone! It's May two four !!!!! smile
Not until after the weekend Vitt, but anyway, why does that date matter?

I thought you Canadians were on our side. Are you celebrating strange north American holidays now?
May 24th dictates the weekend that we celebrate Victoria Day.
The weekend needs to be the one prior to the last Monday of the month, or something like that.

Two four comes from grabbing a case of beer (24) and heading out for the weekend, a three day one.
It's an annual tradition to go camping, I've outgrown that now and wouldn't dare go near a campground now on this weekend. rotflmao

Despite the rain, the campgrounds are generally sold out on this first long weekend of the summer.
It has always rained, as long as I can remember, more fun that way!
We would come home with mud from head to toe, my kids are the same way.

SC, I'm insulted that you would even consider that I would lean to the dark side. faint rotflmao

shhhhh, don't tell them that! flirt

Happy Victoria Day SC! (tomorrow)

HappyBirthday


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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I don't know if this fits here, but one thing to me that is a sign of true repentance is the laying aside of impatience and pride. When I truly saw what I had done and how horrific it was without any qualifications....something in me knew that there was NO room for pride, for scorekeeping about how "good" I was doing, for impatience about how long this recovery stuff was going to take. My affair rendered me unqualified to make those judgments. So when I see people who start pushing the "how long," "when is my BS going to do/stop doing this?" "I'm doing everything right, but...." agenda....I question gut level repentance. I just do. And if I do, I KNOW a BS is going to question it. It just really isn't my job to decide how long it takes someone Else to grieve.

Okay, I just needed to vent that.

There is not one remote chance my FWH and I would be together if he had not been exactly like you describe. After all the pain and horrible life he left me then to find out what he was doing all that while required that he be that way. I was lucky (at least I hope it proves out that way) that he saw the devastation as you did and came to the same conclusion. It threw him over the edge and forced the good hard look at himself that caused the breakdown of his entire former creepy being. It took him a while, had to clear the fog and get a number of 2x4's here but it happened in the first 4 months post D Day.

I think it may take some WS's a longer time to get to that point depending, of course, on their temperament and the circumstance but they do need to get there and they need to make themselves face up rapidly or face a greater chance of losing their spouse. In this circumstance I was lucky, I honor those of you who stick with this without that kind of remorse from your spouse. You have more guts and stamina than I would have had. I also think posting here, as hard as it was for him, helped immensely. He got so much feedback and it took some of the pressure off of me to tell him the things he needed to hear. I would say to anyone who is having this problem to make at least reading these forums a must. I demanded GM post, it was probably the best thing I did because it forced him to think more and got him into the sessions with SH and the MB weekend. Is that impossible to get them to at least read here? That might really help get them over the hump.


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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I don't know if this fits here, but one thing to me that is a sign of true repentance is the laying aside of impatience and pride. When I truly saw what I had done and how horrific it was without any qualifications....something in me knew that there was NO room for pride, for scorekeeping about how "good" I was doing, for impatience about how long this recovery stuff was going to take. My affair rendered me unqualified to make those judgments. So when I see people who start pushing the "how long," "when is my BS going to do/stop doing this?" "I'm doing everything right, but...." agenda....I question gut level repentance. I just do. And if I do, I KNOW a BS is going to question it. It just really isn't my job to decide how long it takes someone Else to grieve.

Okay, I just needed to vent that.

I just had to say ....

hurray hurray hurray hurray

Very well said and I'm sure it has tons to do with your recovery progress.

My DW recently told me I need to "stop living in the past" and "let it go." It cut like a knife and reopened some old wounds. Like you said, there is no room for pride or impatience in R.

Want2Stay

Last edited by Want2Stay; 05/24/10 01:44 PM.

BS-me 36
FWW-34
DS-7 & DS-3
PA - 7/06-8/06
EA - 6/06-1/07
D-Day: wife confessed 2-17-07, suspected 8-02-06
Broke NC: 2-19-07, 3-24-07, 5/07
My Story
My Wife's Story
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Healing one day at a time.....
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