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Originally Posted By: SusieQ
Originally Posted By: Gdar
There are so many things going on, that I am not sure I even did a good job giving Joyce and Bill the issues. I feel like a skated over a bunch. I wonder what they will ask!

Did you mention that:
1) He had an EA and refuses to admit it was an EA?
2) He recently asked you to go to a conference where OW would be in attendance and erased messages so that you wouldn't find out OW was going to be at his school?
3) the incident w/him kissing your friend and asking for a threesome?


1) yes
2) No (he did not erase, I found the email in his reply box)
3)Yes


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Originally Posted By: Gdar
There are so many things going on, that I am not sure I even did a good job giving Joyce and Bill the issues. I feel like a skated over a bunch. I wonder what they will ask!


I think you should read part of the post about your discussion with your H last night. He is very wayward and his words demonstrate that point very well.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: Gdar
I just saw this from TTT on one of Marko's posts and it resonates me with. This is something I certainly need to work on to clean up my side of the street. In fact, I think this is my biggest issue within myself and really keeping me from achieving what I need to do - set boundaries and grab back some freaking self-respect.

I think the matra around here is Sacrifice=Resentment. And we use that as a justification to NEVER EVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SACRIFICE. Which would be great if we lived in a perfect world, which we don't, or if we were perfect people, which we aren't. This month my husband has to work really late most nights. This is beyond our control. Of course he could quite his job. Or he could have a plan to get a new job. But neither of those things does anything to address the fact that TODAY I am required to sacrifice.

Resentment could very well be the natural consequence of this. However, resentment is also a choice that I make myself. I can sit here and justify my feelings of resentment because after all, I am a victim, I am having to sacrifice. Or, I can have a different attitude of acceptance. I can accept that this is something neither of us can change or fix. It just is. And I'm not the only one sacrificing; he is too. Life isn't about being happy all the time. It isn't about being in love all the time either. I can accept that this too shall pass, and that better days are ahead as long as I focus on my own happiness and contentment here and now. My choosing to justify my own irritablility does my marriage no favors. Does me no favors either. I can choose a different attitude, even if I have to sacrifice.



Choosing to ignore personal unhappiness will not work for long, Gdar. Its real easy to say just "accept it" but that is not how it works. That is nothing but a conflict avoidance tactic. The solution is to ELIMINATE the behavior that causes resentment instead of masturbating your mind to massage away the resentment. [which never works] I found this over on the weekend forum. It is an exchange between a board member and Dr Harley.

Quote:
sacrifice in marriage #82
Bluesman wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with the MB opinion that sacrifice does not tend to create appreciation. My father worked 3 jobs to support our family and my mother always took care of my father, my sisters, and myself before satisfying her own wants and needs. I have profound appreciation and love for these efforts. I have seen many successful marriages that involve sacrifice in raising autistic and handicapped children. In my marital experience during the first few years, I sacrificed enthusiastically to try to attain a peaceful and loving sanctuary for our marriage. These efforts failed because it seems that the more I gave, more was expected of me. It seems the priority of our marriage is that her needs (and all her wants, there is a difference between wants and needs) were met when she wanted and how she wanted TO THE LETTER. Otherwise the destructive cycles continue. She has always had the freedom to do what she wants. Should one not show gratitude for this and all the other blessings the good Lord has bestowed upon us?
Please W, be truthful. And please please be honest who has given and who has taken in our marriage. And please please take responsibility for your part in curtailing the giver and empowering the taker.


Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
If sacrifice was all you say it was, we wouldn't be talking about it. A sacrifice is a unilateral gift, something that doesn't require appreciation because it's given unconditionally. My point is that, while there is a place for sacrifice in life, in marriage it tends to be sore spot. When one spouse gives to the other sacrificially, even if it's done enthusiastically, it tends to be unappreciated. If appreciation is required, it's no longer unconditional or sacrifical. Something is expected in return that makes the act worth doing, which takes it out of the realm of sacrifice.

I suggest that you and your wife leave the past in the past and begin negotiating for your future together, with mutual respect and appreciation for what you do for each other.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...rue#Post2196815



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Oh, and last night my husband asked me how long I was going to keep in prison (in regards to going to see his friend) because I do not feel he has proven he is trustworthy.

I read this over and over and over and what I keep coming up with is that if your husband WAS trustworthy, you would still not want him going out partying, being with guy friends overnight, etc.

Would you?

If my husband ever said he wanted to go out and stay overnight with guy friend I would fall over.

1. He likes being with me and would not want to be with guy friends without me except for short times.

2. OVERNIGHT!? we are married. OVERNIGHT drunken slumber parties with the guys are over. Especially when you have a wife AND family.


3. My husband is totally trustworthy but I would not want him overnight unless it was a business trip, without me. And he would not want to go on a pleasure trip without me, that is just the way it is.


Your man is saying he is trying to tell you you are putting him in prison BECAUSE OF THE FACT HE CHEATED.

But, this is a lie, it is not the reason! and he is not in prison1, so many things wrong with this statement he made.

1. He is not in prison, what he is saying here is YOUR FAMILY IS A PRISON that he HATES. And YOU are the prison warden. He is fooling you that because he cheated he is now in prison. The fact is married men do not want to go overnight with the guys without thier wives, trustworthy or not.

2. He is actually not supposed to go out partying and on overnights even if he is totally trustworthy he is not supposed to WANT THAT. Since he is MARRIED.

3. He is supposed to WANT TO BE WITH you more than anyone, that is just how it is supposed to be when you are in love and married.

4. You need to say to him, if this family is like being in PRISON to you, then we really need to talk about our marriage. Do you feel it is as bad as a PRISON?

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Reading your posts remind me of my husband. He told his OW that living with me and the kids is like he's in prison. So reading this prison talks makes me think of my situation. Looking forward to hearing what they tell you tomorrow

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G girl, I don't know. The fact that he says he needs to go and stay with his friend drinking for 2 days or he'll explode is ridiculous and immature; that's what people with poor coping skills say. If he cannot handle his profession, he needs a new one.

My wife and I have a rule. If we go to a friend's house and there's drinking, we do not leave until we are sober. There's only been a couple of times when I had to crash on his couch. But you bet that I was up at 4am the next morning and on my way home. I know you don't want him going. I'm saying this because my wife is not bothered if I crash on a couch due alcohol and there's no way I'd ask my wife to be gone for 2 days.

My stepdad and his buddies would go on hunting or fishing trips and my mom and the other wives would get together and have baking weekends. They'd all come back with pounds of deer or dozens of fish. I had friends whose dads did the same thing. But I don't remember aby of them going on drunk weekends just to sit ina garage and drink.

I think you need to put your foot down. He thinks your job isn't stressful and his only matters. Maybe you should see if he'd be joyful about you going to a girlfriends house for 2 days and drinking and he can take care of the kids


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Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Maybe you should see if he'd be joyful about you going to a girlfriends house for 2 days and drinking and he can take care of the kids


The answer to Independent Behavior is NOT more Independent Behavior. Him acting inappropriately does not justify G acting inappropriately. That isn't MB.


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Originally Posted By: Vibrissa

The answer to Independent Behavior is NOT more Independent Behavior. Him acting inappropriately does not justify G acting inappropriately. That isn't MB.



I didn't mean it to sound like she actually goes on a 2 day trip to hang out and drink. But more of a "would you be enthusiastic about me going for two days to hang out with a girlfriend?" He would prob say no. In which she would ask "well, why should I be about you then?"


Last edited by kilted_thrower; 06/11/10 01:18 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
Originally Posted By: Gdar
I have been so busy meeting his needs the past 2 years, almost frantically, that I am completely burnt out. I imagine if he was O&H with me, and would tell me I was NOT meeting his needs, I could have something to go off of. Last night he said the only need he has right now is leaving to go see his friends. Because he sees coming home and giving me the time that our M has not been receiving is too much work. And he does not have the time.

So that is where I am at. I am looking for the suggestions, I will do my reading. I honestly think it is a LB of his for me to be reading these books. He always makes a comment about it when he sees one. He does not read them. He skimmed through 2 of the handful I have, but I cannot make him read them, so ... I have thoughtfully requested, but...


G- glad you're calling the radio show tomorrow. I am sure they will be able to help.

Him going to see his friends is not a MB EN. It may be something he wants to do, but it is dangerous and hurtful to your marriage. A MB EN is something that build love between two people. This is not a need and you are not obligated to meet it and further the erosion of your marriage.


Gdar, please read this:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2354459#Post2354459

Quote:
Quote:
told me his top EN is male friendship...


Like MelodyLane said, this doesn't even make sense.

An "emotional need" is not a "need." You need food in order to live, but it's not an emotional need.

You and your husband need to know exactly what Dr. Harley means by "emotional need."

There's really no such thing in life as a "need." You may think you need money, but really, you could grow your own food and make your own clothes and build your own house, and never touch money in your life. You need money IN ORDER to have other people provide goods and services for you if you don't want to produce them yourself.

You need food, but only IN ORDER to live.

You need to show up at work on time IN ORDER to keep your paycheck.

All needs are "in order" to achieve some goal. Those goals are all technically optional, although I highly recommend some of them.

An emotional need is what you need in order to feel in love with the person providing it. It's not any other type of need. If having it makes you feel in love with the person who is giving it to you, then it's an emotional need.

So, for example, for many men, sexual fulfillment is an emotional need. This does not mean that men "need" sex; lack of sex will not cause them to die. What it does mean is that if their wife engages in regular, fulfilling sexual relations with them, then those men will fall in love with their wives. It's not that the man needs sex ... it's that he needs to feel in love with his wife, which for many men is accomplished by sexual fulfillment with her. It wouldn't be enough for him to go off with porn or a prostitute, because that might provide some sexual enjoyment for him, and it might be fulfilling, but it wouldn't make him feel in love with his wife, and that's what an emotional need is all about.

Do you see now why "male friendship" isn't what we mean by an emotional need? Male friendship won't make him feel in love with you.


Couple more similar posts to read:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2354612#Post2354612
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2354615#Post2354615


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa

The answer to Independent Behavior is NOT more Independent Behavior. Him acting inappropriately does not justify G acting inappropriately. That isn't MB.



I didn't mean it to sound like she actually goes on a 2 day trip to hang out and drink. But more of a "would you be enthusiastic about me going for two days to hang out with a girlfriend?" He would prob say no. In which she would ask "well, why should I be about you then?"



KT, he will actually encourage me to do so (for one overnight) to see my friends 2 hours away SO he can get his time with his friends. Thing is, I don't want to go overnight to see my friends, I WANT to be with him. He uses the excuse that we have no one to sit the kids, so why should we both be miserable. Gee, thanks. Again, prison sentence he has here witha family. Blech.

I have said before, once, possibly twice a year, I go visit a friend (I actually try to see 3-4 people there, to kill that many birds with one stone) and will stay over, simply because I do not want to drive 2 hours in the dark on the freeway home after dinner. He texts me non-stop about anything and everything, which makes it hard to enjoy conversations with the people I am visiting because my phone keeps blowing up. Once, my phone was not working in a building I was in, and for 4 hours my H had been texting me and I had no idea. When I got out of the building and checked my phone, I called him because the texts starting getting angry. "WTH are you not answering your texts? If I was to do this to you, you would be flaming pissed off" (um, he would be flaming pissed off I did this to him while he was gone). I called to explain that I had no idea he was trying to contact me and he got very upset and really laid into me. I felt like a child. I did not do it intentionally and I was rather confused because he had encouraged me to get away and have some stress free time, and then he wanted me to be at his beck and call. This is another reason I do not go to see friends very often. They tease me about how long our visit will go before my H starts texting my phone non-stop. When he goes on HIS overnights, I NEVER call him. I let him call me. When I ask him why he has to be in constant contact, he says that he just misses me. Well!!! Then why encourage me to go? Because he wants HIS turn with his friends in return. It is all so... frustrating!

Last edited by Gdar; 06/11/10 10:49 AM.

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The fact that your husband texts you non-stop when you are gone from him is actually the only good sign I have seen! Not his associated angry outbursts and selfish demands, though. Just the fact that when you are gone he thinks of you and communicates with you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Thanks for the links, Markos. It is comforting to know I am not alone.


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Originally Posted By: markos
The fact that your husband texts you non-stop when you are gone from him is actually the only good sign I have seen! Not his associated angry outbursts and selfish demands, though. Just the fact that when you are gone he thinks of you and communicates with you.


Yes, I agree. This is why I have not asked him to stop, or told him it is bothersome. Really hard to have a conversation with friends I only see once or twice a year when my phone is going off non-stop, and if I do not respond, it is a major LB for him.

I ignored him once on purpose and it did not go well. I just told him that I was really trying to enjoy my time and I felt it was rude to sit with my phone in my face while at the lunch table with other people. "Fine, I will never call/text you again while you are gone, you can contact me", but in an upset, passive-aggressive way. It is just how he is hard wired.

The last conversation he had with his mom over a month ago, her last words to him were: "fine, if you think it is so terrible for me to care about you, then I will never bother you guys again. You can live your life without having to worry about me". She will not return his calls, she ignores her grandchildren (our 4 yr old is heartbroken), did not call on H's birthday, son's birthday, nadda. To him, this is how adult relationships work. Even though he cannot stand how his mom is, he emulates her behavior in our M.


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I think in a healthy marriage, you would not be bothered by the texts. I think you would actually like them, because you would be in love with the man sending them.

The angry outbursts and selfish demands on the subject, though, are definitely a problem, and I wouldn't see a problem with telling him that THOSE bother you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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I failed pretty terribly last night on my side of the street.

We had our 4 yr old's preschool graduation party yesterday in the middle of the day. I did not ask my H to attend, he asked me what time it was and that he was going to be there (it is next door to his work). While I was standing in line for food, one of the other mom's, who happens to work for my H said "I am so glad you convinced your H to be here - he works so hard, but these are important. When he told me he was too busy to come today, I told him that this was more important. I am glad you got him to come"! I had no idea he was not planning on attending, as he told me he was. I am not sure if he was playing the Martyr at work, or not. I asked him about it and he said he had no idea what I was talking about - "I told you I was coming". Yes, I understand that. I did not want to argue, I was asking for clarification. He left an hour before it was over to go back to work.

He told me he had a meeting at 5:15 and wanted to know if I was going to come back and get my son, or if I wanted him to stay there and finish his homework. I told him whatever he wanted to do. He said he would bring him home after his meeting.

I got a text at 5:53 from my son who asks me to come pick him up. When I asked why, he said that H's meeting person had JUST shown up and he did not want to be stuck there for another potential hour. I told him I would come get him. So, this meeting started 40+ minutes late (we eat dinner between 5:30-6) and he never called or text me to let me know it still had yet to start and that he would be even later. In my mind, he had 40 opportunities to let me know. We have had this discussion so MANY times this year. If you are going to run late, just shoot off a text and LET ME KNOW. That is all I want/need. Just communicate.

So, I pick up my son and he says "H wanted to know why you just did not call him first and that you could have saved yourself the trip". Well, I do not call him when I know he is in a meeting. It is a LB for him. If I know he is in a meeting and I call, it should be for pressing issues (like the ER or something). I did sent him a text to let him know I had picked up our son (but my son told him while walking out the door). So he calls me and is really casual. "Hey, I said I would bring son home". I was O&H and said that I was disappointed that he did not inform me his meeting was pushed back, as it was already into dinner time and that I have asked him to let me know when these situations arise. He said (again!) that he did not see what the big deal was, that I knew he was already going to be later than usual and that he had no idea the person was that late because he was working hard doing paperwork and was not aware of the time until the person actually got there. I feel that once he DID see the time, he could have sent me a text. He feels that he cannot because it was his boss.

I had it all planned in my head what I was going to reply with what I assumed (total DJ here) he would say "I cannot just call you with my boss standing right there" (or insert another teacher, parent, etc...). "Why would they respect your family if you don't". I never said it, but I was thinking it.

Anyway, he just sighed deeply, said "whatever. see you when I get home".

I had to get out of the house. I was not in a position to see him. I was afraid I would AO (though I do not yell) or DJ or LB, whathaveyou. I knew if I stayed, I was not going to handle it well, so I left right before he pulled in the driveway. I did not come home until 1 in the morning. I went to a girlfriend's house and talked. I needed to talk. I would pissed as all get out if my H did that to me. So yeah, I know I suck right now. I just wanted to try and preserve any ounce of love I have for this man, and I knew if I saw him after our "disagreement", the love would have completely left me.


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Originally Posted By: Gdar
I just wanted to try and preserve any ounce of love I have for this man, and I knew if I saw him after our "disagreement", the love would have completely left me.


This is what Plan B is for - to preserve your love for your husband when he continually abuses and neglects you.

I'll hold off on pushing Plan B too hard as I want to see what the Harley's would recommend.

G - I'm so sorry your husband is like this. Once again, evidence that you and the family are at the very BOTTOM of his priority list. You can't change that.


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You know what is (not so) funny, Vib? That has H told me twice in the last two days that he is working his butt of to make me and our family happy. I asked him if he could give me examples of what those things are and he said he was not going to have that conversation with me until I came home. Thing is, when we talked about it the day before and I asked him the same question, he could not come up with anything other than "I am not cheating on you" like I am supposed to jump up and kiss the sky and thank my lucky stars. Like he is doing me a favor (total DJ there, sorry - not in a good space).

What irks me is he has an ANSWER for everything, but they have nothing to do with US. "Why don't you ask so and so's wife how she likes HER H's hours - you are lucky I don't work that much, because I could and probably should to do my job effectively". Stuff like that. I DONT CARE ABOUT THEIR MARRIAGE!!! I CARE ABOUT MINE. Interestingly enough, the things about teenagers (or my older 2 kids) that drive me H nuts in the way they deflect, minimize, blame-shift, take no accountability, is EXACTLY how I feel he acts with me!


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oh, and last night he told me that he feels disrespected. Again, I asked if he could tell me what it is that I am doing (I would like to know so I can change them) and he would not tell me.

I am NOTHING but O&H with him about everything. When I was married before, I was a liar. A Freeloader. I worried about my feelings above my ex H. I grew up thinking this was ok. It protected me. It kept confrontation at bay. I hated confrontation (still do). I made a promise to myself to come out of my shell and give this my all, be up front and honest and tell him and let him inside. Now I am thinking it was so much easier to just be a liar. It was easier. I felt more protected. Now I just feel beat up and neglected. Everything I thought being O&H in a M would bring me, is biting me in the a$$.


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2 more hours til I call in on MB Radio!


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Gdar...

He says he doesn't know why it's a big deal.

Answer truthfully, "I don't understand your statement. I know you know it's a big deal to me, that it matters and affects me. You know when you don't keep me current on your plans, you will hurt me in your disregard."

Statements...not AO's.

Your distrust of yourself (not going to handle it well justifies disregarding your H...which is exactly what you don't want HIM doing to you) is warranted. You don't hold to your boundaries...you don't hold yourself to your boundaries. You justify and hate his justification.

And so the cycle continues.

Meeting ENs and eliminating LBs...following the four rules of marriage...takes you practicing (practice to form a habit) staying present, doing what it takes to settle your own feelings, reactivity...and then enforcing boundaries around your own behavior.

Going to your friend's house is a boundary enforcement...staying to 1am without contacting your H...is an attack on your marriage.

Your feelings of anger will be reduced over the span of about 20 minutes...that's if you aren't refueling them with images and sounds to reinforce, reignite.

Your belief that the sight of your H would have drained out what remained in your love bank actually drains a lot of it. Making him your enemy...when it was his action (and the choice to not call was an action) that did it. Making HIM your enemy is attacking your own marriage, Gdar.

You can stop doing that from your side.

By telling yourself the truth...You wanted to maintain a routine by having dinner at a certain time; you wanted to not have your H work late, wishing you had taken your son home, instead, and would have if you'd known his meeting was running late; and that this is an issue, a problem...your H is NOT a problem.

His comparisons to other husbands are valid...they are in his head...and you're reacting to the justifications. Which is how he justified his EA...you're triggering and not owning your triggers.

His comparisons don't keep you safe...his actions do. When he chooses not to act, you'll trigger. Own those triggers. I don't see your being O&H. When you really get your boundaries, then you stop your self-betrayal, too...you come back and pick up son and say, "I don't trust you to bring him home for dinner on time. I want to make the trip for the certainty more than not making it for the convenience."

I think you'd calculate in his time with son, the attention possibility, if you really thought H would give son some one-on-one attention during that time. That can come later.

Not forever...just for now. Own your distrust, see what you prioritize...and see where you chose not to do, when you had the power.

Understand he sees his working as the most he can do for his marriage. He sees himself sacrificing...and you know that's harmful for the marriage. Sometimes, it's understanding what we already understand...accepting it, that we fight against...and instead, fight against our spouses.

Your responsibility is to learn and implement your own feelings-management system...so you stop doing what he's doing...you want to act, not react. Your feelings don't make you do stuff.

You choose.

This is the really hard part of marriage, Gdar. You're not lacking or inadequate. Or crazy. Neither of you have friends of the marriage...and it doesn't sound like either of you want to cut loose those who aren't. Neither of you want to experience what you're experiencing right now...and both of you seem to be seeing each other as the enemy, the disapproving and attacking parent. The cause, control and cure for your problems.

Begin there...because in Recovery, when you get through the withdrawal, delineate the EPs, stay transparent...you have to address the issues pre-A...which is why Recovery just keeps being hard...takes so long. You're there. Know where you are.

LA

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