Anyone else?

My husband and I (and our 2 yr old) have Mono, so we are all feeling a little off and more tired than usual. I understand my H was not feeling 100% yesterday, but either was I. He slept in both mornings til well after 10, while I tended to the kids and the puppy.

When he rolled out of bed, he did not say a word to me and handed me an impersonal Mother's Day card he had picked up the grocery store the day before. Never even SAID Happy Mother's Day. When I asked him today why he could not even say it, he said it was obvious I was ticked off that he slept in, so he thought it was pointless to bother.

I raise 4 kids. Every day. 24/7. I stay home with them, this is who I am and what I do. It is important to me.

I am just really hurt that he did not do anything, or say anything, or arrange anything for me. I have made it clear over past Mother's Day that this day IS important to me. When I explained this, yet again, his response was (he is passive-aggressive) "it is just a day, I don't take stock in Hallmark Holidays, I do not see what the big deal is".

Sigh.

I am tired of pining away for this guy when this is how he shows up when it matters to me.

Anyone else have a disappointing Mothers Day?

Our story:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=152726&Number=2119668#Post2119668

You got a card???

Harumph.

LA

That was supposed to be funny and now I think it wasn't.

Still true.

You are in the trenches of motherhood right now...as you say...doing the job, 24/7.

And your tykes are too small, I take it, for them to have made you cards or gotten you something (or old enough to beg their dad to help them get what they wanted to give you).

I have three grown sons...and got calls...wishing HMDay.

I'm really sorry you told your H how important Mother's Day was and that you wanted specific special treatment and didn't receive it.

LA

A unthoughtful, supposed-to-be-funny, but was just rude. The outside said "kick up your feet, relax, this is your day" then the inside said "hahahahaaa". Nice.

My husband used to only buy me blank cards and write heartfelt things inside. He told me this when we were dating and I bought him some sappy, but already written love card. He told me he prefered something more personal.

He didn't even try. I am wondering if it was the only card left at the grocery store - I think most men would have thought it not a good idea to buy that one for their wives.

That and since we have a 4 and 2 yr old, we have more art supplies than a craft store. I know he wasn't feeling well, but I do not feel it would have been to much effort to have the kids make me something. I do it for him for Father's Day and birthdays. Not to mention, I made it CLEAR how important this day is for me.

Just feeling let down and tired of feeling let down.

I'm sorry you had such a crappy day. Being sick makes things feel even worse sometimes too. You know how some men are when they are sick...no offense guys, but for some it's true. Just breathing oxygen is a heroic effort - ha ha.

When your kids get older, they will understand well what you are doing for them now, and it will have really impacted their lives. They just aren't old enough yet.

I don't blame you for being upset. My H blew off my first mother's day, running back and forth doing stuff for his mother (not something he would usually have done, either and it could have waited), leaving me at home with a 3 month old, all day long.

Back in those days, I still could talk to him, so I let him know how upset I was and he's never forgotten since.

I am sorry you felt let down by your H on mother days.

I got disowned by my mother for mothers day. Best mothers day gift ever.

Oh, man, I went to the store at 3:30; I thought I was doing well, my mom wasn't coming until 7. All there was left were Thank You cards, and Happy Mothers' Day to my Godmother in Spanish. DD and I debated about whether we could give her one of those, because they were prettier than the thank you cards, and my mom doesn't speak Spanish, so she wouldn't know it was for the godmother. DD won, and wrote something beautiful inside the Thank You card.

My 12 yr old daughter was great. She wrote me a gorgeous poem and gave my H a "what for" about not doing anything nice, or even making me coffee. I left for the afternoon with the kids, and upon our return, she talked to him again about "why haven't you done anything - you could at least tell her how special she is". Gotta love that girl, protecting her mom.

My mothers day was great. My WW went to the bar and I spent the afterneoon/evening home with the kids.... but I am the one who has issues! :-))

I hear you. My 1st "Mothers Day" I got nothing (I had our baby and he just kept saying, "I am not getting you anything...YOU are not my mother!")

That one still stings. Then he gave me a card- in the store bag with the reciept still in it. (A for effort?)

Sheesh! hurts so much it makes you laugh or cry)

Sunday I had a good Mother's Day. I really loved my family.
We all got along.
ALTHO--
We bought my DD14 a motorcycle, (brand new) and she drove it into my brand new car! (well- 4 mo old car) on Mother's Day.
Then Sunday night we got a frost and I lost some plants!!#$%$#@


Maybe I am just jinxed!

I am sorry that you had a neglectful H, you would think they would understand.

Made my W a menu thing with breakfast, and she got to order and actually turned out ok, but her plans with our 15 mo old didnt really pan out and I think it was my fault somehow though I wasnt included in the plans and specifically told to stay out of it...

However, we had a talk that ended with smiles and a hug, and she got her locket that has been a 4 month pain to arrange.

I dont think it was a "bad" mother's day, just not that neat.

I was one of those "its just another day" people. Turns out,

Perception is Reality.

If she feels its NOT just another day, than it isnt. At that point you can either decide that her feelings arent important enough to warrant doing extra that day, or that they are.

Neither decision is wrong, just be prepared to accept that she will understand where her feelings stand on the scale of importance, and dont be surprised at what comes next.

I say that now, but I was very surprised....

/sigh

Gdar,
This sounds awful, so sorry you were disappointed by his lack of acknowledgement. If you asked my wife she would say for years I didn't "get it" on special days like this one and birthdays and etc. But what the male in me is thinking is "My gosh how many special days do we need?" She will say things like I only want this one day a year but in reality she expects me to do special things on Xmas, Valentines, Anniversary, birthday, mothers day, yet she wasn't very clear about what it was she expected.

Only last year did she really start communicating her expectations specifically. So I would like to ask you how specific you were in your requests and communications about the plans for the day?

I haven't read any of your threads lately so I have no idea what your sitch is but it seems like he is like this more often than not. Is it just Mono or is it an ongoing disappointment?

I hate mother's day. It's a bunch of work. I love my mom, but we'd rather go out to lunch quietly.

That said, it's really nice when the father of your children says "Great Job, Honey! If I had interviewed a thousand women for this job, I'd have picked you hands down every time."

Now, if you can't get that, and he's totally resistent, I suggest a new way to handle this. Next March, look at the calendar. Tell him you will be out of town on that day. Then, I suggest you grab your mom, or your best friend and check into a Spa or resort or even a hotel. Take a day off! Celebrate the hard work you do 24/7 every other day. Oh, and send him the bill.

Thanks for the reply and asking for clarification. I was very clear. After last years debacle (not even a card) of putting myself on strike for the day in order to get the day I wanted/needed (which, for just ONE DAY OF THE YEAR not to have 4 kids and a husband asking me to do things for THEM), I tried not to expect much this year, but obviously I did have expectations, or I would not have been upset.

Last year I asked for an inexpensive necklace and sent him several links of places that sold the style I was looking for. I have been wanting a necklace that has my children's initials since the birth of our last child 2 years ago. He never repsonded or brought up the links I sent him, even when I asked him if he looked them up. I also had a picture from a parenting magazine of the style of necklace and had taped it up last year right at eye level on the pantry. Nothing. This year, I did it again - taped it up where he could see it, this time drawing a HEART around the necklace with the words "Mother's Day" in black sharpie. Again, nothing.

I have been very clear over the years that Mothers Day DOES mean something to me. I am a stay at home mom. It is what I do. I spend hours upon hours, most thankless perfming tasks for everyone in the family every day. I do not feel expecting some appreciation in the form of having a day off from those tasks, or even asking for a $35 necklace that represents that I am a mother, is too much to ask for. I ask, I still did not receive.

Honestly right now, it was just the straw. I have been shut down and withdrawn since that day. He knows why, we have discussed it. He blew off my feelings. I am so over the rollercoaster ride. The cycle. The going back to the old ways. So, effing tired.

If I was able to re-title this post, it think it would be "I am in withdrawal".

and to be honest, I am jealous there are so many men on here looking for ways to fix their marriages or relate to their wives better. I have 3 of Dr. Harley's books, which he briefly perused once 2 years ago, we have done the HNHN questionnaire 3 times over the past 2 years. Nothing sticks. He says he will work harder at putting our marriage first, but all he does is WORK (his job). It used to be when I told him I was feeling neglected and lonely, he would make an improvement and it would last a couple of months. Then it was a couple of weeks. Now, I am lucky to get a couple of DAYS.

I am bumping again. I feel like I am losing my mind. I am not sure I want him to even come home from work. If I was not sick and had the kiddos to take care of, I would leave. I do not think my heart can handle another night watching him ignore me.

I'm sorry you're having a bad day. Or month. How sick are you? Can you cough on him?

Would it help if you attributed some of the 'blah' to the mono? I just looked upthread. So maybe coughing combined with licking? lol.

LOL He is the one who has Mono. I thought I had it, but the Dr. just called to confirm my test was negative.

Which, pathetically enough, I am not happy about. Since now I am not offically "as sick as him", the competition is over. He won. Yes, he makes who is sicker a competition. So now, I have no excuse not to carry on like I am perfectly fine, regardless of how I feel, because I do not have a "condition" like he does.

Maybe if he didnt overwork himself, he wouldnt HAVE mono in the first place.

My CBC came back ok. No anemia (which would explain how tired I am). I think my marriage is causing me depression. is that possible? Because I feel terrible. That would be just great - ending up with depression. Then my husband could have a get out of jail free card. It isnt HIM, its the depression, which of course, he didn't help cause.

Sure the state of the marriage can bring on depression. Short of medication, you could *try* forcing yourself to get some physical exercise, it releases endorphins which helps lift your mood. I know how hard it is to get motivated to do that. I do a Kenpo routine that you might like...it involves a lot of punching and kicking, so it releases aggression, too.

I seriously cannot do it. I have the Wii Fit (which I have been asking for months to have my husband hook up to the large TV with all of the free space in front of it, but he has yet to), I just... can't. I suppose being sick makes my motivation level about nil.

If I had more time to focus on me, I would like to. But then when I get the chance, it is so few and far between, that I get all down and out before I have the chance to do it again.

I emailed our MC and asked for an appt for me to get checked out. I will tell H about it, but I do not want to, because then he will use my possible depression as a way to validate himself that he isn't part of the problem. I feel he is the problem.

The problem is you both think each other is the problem. Yeah, I'm there, too--- can not throw stones.

Fer christsakes, try some meds. You most likely will feel very sorry that you suffered for so long without them. Most people benefit in some way, and it could be the light at the end of the tunnel that may kick start your feeling better.

I have not felt this "hopeless" since after the EA 2 years ago. I don't know if I am triggering because it was EXACLTY 2 years ago, or what. I cannot identify it.

I know I am part of the problem. I am in constant fix it mode. I am always trying new things, reading the books, asking questions. I think he would prefer I just shut the [censored] up and act happy. He certainly is not meeting ANY of my ENs right now, even when I am very clear what they are and how he can meet them. Any time I try and tell him how I feel, he gets annoyed with this "what did I do now" attitude, even when I use all the "I feel X when this happens" approach. I have tried every approach I can think of. Every approach others have given me. I am sick of trying. It should not be this hard to care about me. Why can't he care about me consistently? I meet all his ENs according to him. I am just.so.tired. I want to scream my head off right now.

I really believe what I need to feel better is getting some of my ENs met. Then I would not need the damn drugs because I would not be depressed!!!

I remember you from before when I intensly disliked your cheaterman husband.

You are attractive (on MB picture site), you are nice, and you live in my town. I will come kick his butt for you...

But seriously, he was always selfish.

What EN's do you need him to meet, please list them and we can sink our teeth into how to help if that is possible.

I know if I had 4 young kids, NONE, NONE and NONE of my EN;s would ever be met and my husband might just get a second job to avoid all the hard work and noise of childrearing, heck, the two cats are a lot for him to handle sometimes.

Let us know the en's and we can see what is up now.

Hi Bubbles.

Yes, I know. Seriously selfish. He was raised to be selfish.

1) Affection
2)SF
3)conversation

in no particular order - they are all about tied right now.

I am not a woman who can go without any of these things for more than a day. Well, SF does not have to be daily, but I like it when it is. We have always, always done well with SF, but over the past 6 months it has decreased from 5-10x a week to ONCE. Actually, it has been more than a week now. I have asked him to come home on his lunch hour (which technically he does not have with his job, but I keep asking in hopes one afternoon will free up) for SF.

I do a great job of getting the younger two to bed BY 7 and the older 2 (teens) have homework or music that keep them occupied til they go to bed at 8:30. This has always worked for us, so that we get our alone time each evening. For the past 9 months, I have watched our alone time go from each evening, to every few evenings to NO evenings (during the weekdays). He works until about 10 every night.

I have told him very clearly what I need from him. How many men have this problem? Their wives actually want to have sex with them? Poor things!

1) Affection
2)SF
3)conversation

Hey these needs are only three! YAY!

These are the big three though and are often intertwined.

For me, when I am not getting much sex, I suffer more with the unmet affection and conversation needs. If the sex is good and often, I can relax and not crave the affection/conversation needs.

Sometimes the best time to get those needs met is in the context of sex/bedroom. then all three needs are met.

I can see if he gets home at 10PM, why none of your needs are met or rarely. Why the late hours? In his line of work there is no need for working that late except unless HE CHOOSES TO. And do not believe otherwise.

I wonder why he chooses to come home right before bedtime.

The stress is a symptom, - so what? It does not matter where it is coming from, you still should treat it and not put your emotional health at the discretion of another.

I find/found that I was calmer on meds.
Only ignorant people would comment negatively about someones medications. Unless you are married to my husband (who feels the need to share all my private info with his family)
no one needs to know.

They are a pain because you need to be monitored, but my relationship with my children was suffering due to my emotional upheaval.

You have to decide what is best for you. I am just saying don't let attitudes you have about "damn drugs" affect your descisions about your health.

And I am so jealous of all the wives here looking for ways to fix their marriages! I feel exactly the same as you, wondering why why why except I'm wondering why I can't have a concerned MB wife, the kind I read about here, the kind who is willing to forgive and repair a marriage even with something as big as infidelity, which is not the situation for me? Not even close.

So, Gdar, I feel your frustration but know that sometimes it is the wife who doesn't want to try.

I know he chooses to. It has been an ongoing issue. His job is incredibly demanding (and important) and I used to admire how good he is at it, but I am to the point now, that when he asks for my input, I don't want to give it. When he opens up his laptop, I instantly get an upset stomach.

One night (the night after Mother's Day), I just could not stand to see him work. I went downstairs. He ended up coming downstairs, which I thought would have been a nice gesture (though was not expecting it). Then he whips out his laptop. Spends about 45 minutes on a 5 sentence email. Wants me to give him my opinion on if he sounded appreciative, yet professional.

Really?

He could not spend even 5 seconds to write something nice inside a card for Mother's Day?

So I explained to him this was my entire point (about being upset at how much he works when he is home). That I watch him spend 45 minutes to make sure he is making his staff feel appreciated, an email that could have taken 1-2 minutes to write. But he wanted to get it JUST right to portray his appreciation for their hard work.

How I want that to be ME. I WANT that time!

Every time we talk about it, he promises he will work harder to find a balance between home and work. That he is aware it has been way too much and that he is sorry, and that he will figure it out. It has been almost 9 months. And it has gotten much worse.

Right now, I really need him to come home and rip my clothes off. I am going out of my mind.

Last night, as I sat next to him watching him work away on his laptop until almost 11 pm, I was having these weird physical reactions and every few minutes, I felt like I was going to just bawl my head off. I had to choke back tears. Once the lights were off and he assumed his position to sleep, the tears flowed.

And he ignored me.

Thank you, I always appreciate your perspective.

Yes, I admit, I am judgemental about drugs. I have an appt this Tuesday with our MC (who I have sent 2 friends to for depresion and they really like him).

I told my husband that I made the appt to see him, and what it was for. He asked me (flatly, with feigned interest - yes I know that is a DJ, but I know him and he was not interested) if I needed to talk about anything. Again, really? That is what I have been trying to do for months and he either pacifies me by telling me it will change or he simply ignores it. I told him that I have been very clear about what is wrong, that I have communicated in every way I know how, so no. I do not want to talk about it NOW (just because I made an appt).

Please excuse me if my posts are all over the map. I did not get any sleep last night, I cried so long and hard and I have had a headache for 2 solid days now.

Calm down! Calm down enough to tell him that you're drowning here, and tell him exactly what you need. Home from work at whatever time you think is reasonable, 6pm or 7pm or 8. No work stuff at home--if you think this would be impossible, then work out a plan! 8-8:30pm he can answer emails, or whatever you think you can tolerate without resentment.

Tell him, "I don't want to HEAR it. I want to SEE it."

You're a SAHM, right? My H and I have struggled with this, too, in big ugly ways, and he offered that what I *should* do, since I was left alone with four kids from sunup to bedtime, was find myself a life...get a babysitter, go out! I explained to him that doing that would not provide me what I needed, which was a close and intimate relationship with a significant other. I was seeking THAT. And if he continued to go into work early and come home late and ignore my needs, I would still be seeking THAT connection, so if he were to start finding that I was never at home, that I was out 'making a life', he could rest assured that I was doing it in a way to seek that which I was missing...a significant other. He went from working late 4-5 times a week to working late 2-3 days a month, if that.

CWMI. I have done that. More than a few times. I have said "I don't want to HEAR it, I want to SEE it" more than I can count.

We had a plan. It lasted 4 days. The one time he actually followed a plan. 4 days. Nothing ever, ever, ever sticks.

It is nice to hear someone who has been in this same position. I do not need a sitter during the day when my husband is at work - I enjoy being with my kidlets. It is HIM I miss. He knows this. I just do not know what else I can do to drive it home.

I thought that when I told him how hurtful it is to watch him craft a 45 minute email of thanks to his staff, but could not muster up anything for me when he KNOWS Mother's Day is a big deal to me, that he would get it. He LOOKED like he did. But his actions show me otherwise.

My H said something to me that really bonkered me. It was about gifts and recognition...he said that he wanted to do big things, but when the big things he wanted to do couldn't play out because of money or time or availability, he went to the default of doing nothing. That's entirely his...his perfectionism...have you heard the old saying, "Anything worth doing, is worth doing right"? Some people (I'm not naming anybody, but in my house his initials are H, lol) take that to mean, "If you can't do it right, don't even bother."

Does your H have that tendency? It could explain a lot. Why he needs to get an employee email just so. Why he avoids parenting by staying away. Why he avoids being a husband. If he thinks he can't be perfect in those roles, then he doesn't bother. Better to have not tried, than to have tried and come up short. That way, they're still perfect (in their own eyes, anyway, lol).

Might be a subject worth exploring. Sad thing is, there's nothing you can do about it...it's his.

No, he does not have that tenancy. He was so consistently thoughtful for the first 3 years. Blank cards with heartfelt words for no reason, a pair of my favorite jeans from my favorite boutique, strum a song about me on his guitar. Right up until the EA, he was (besides the poor division of baby/house chores, which now I do not even bother with) very thoughtful. He called all the time, he emailed me all of the time, we IMd each other many times throughout the day. Now we talk once or twice a day. I know he is busy at work, so I am used to the minimal contact throughout the day. I had a hard time with that at first, but ok with it now. As long as he is attentive when he is home.

We were going through a rough patch last summer around my birthday. My best friend got upset with him, called him up and said "you better have something planned for her 35th birthday", and he did. Threw me a fantastic surprise party, with her help. But thats just it. He will let the Status Quo go and go and go, then do something like throw me a party, and hope that holds me over for months and months. Then I get accused of not ever being satisfied. I was very appreciative of the party. I was not appreciative of how it went right back to the way it was a week later.

Any suggestions on this non-stop headache? Even my FACE hurts. This constant pressure. I have tried 800 mg of Advil twice and it does not help me!

Press on the space between your thumb and forefinger, grasp it with the thumb and fore of the other hand and gently press in the space just between the bones.

Get on your knees and ask God to relieve you of this pain.

Both have worked for me.

I will try #1. I am not religious. Thank you, though!

I will get through this, right? I cannot hurt forever. I cannot believe the person I have turned into. Letting someone else decide my emotional state. I went into this with eyes wide open, with the best intentions. With a full and happy heart.

I think I just figured out why I am making myself physically sick.

He came to me a couple of months ago to let me know that he has a week-long conference coming up in California. Since he has brought this program to the district, it is important for him to be there.

She will be there.

He said to me "I am not going without you. If we cannot make it work out for you to join me, then I will not go".

We have exhausted all of our resources to find care for the kids (with plently of notice, as this would not be until August), but no one can. My parents both work and his parents said no. All of my friends have full time jobs, I have no siblings, my brother in law is not involved but for Christmas. We have come up dry.

He has yet to cancel his plan to go on this trip. I have access to all of his communications and I just found an email this morning in which he confirmed he was going (also including me). Now we will owe $440 for a plane ticket they are purchasing for me, and I CANNOT GO. I have asked him 3 times if he has canceled, and he keeps saying we have plenty of time to work out care for the kids. We have never been gone overnight for more than a weekend from them before, I am not handing them off for a WEEK while we are out of state with just anyone we can find.

*****

He just called while I was writing this. He said he has a meeting after school today. I thought he was going overnight to help his friend at a festival about an hour away (they BBQ), but he said "you are more important than some stupid festival". Which felt nice to hear. Until he followed it with "I tried to talk to you about it, but you just shut down, so I figured I couldn't go, anyway". He is right, though. I did shut down. He has tried to be gone 4 weekends in a row (besides Mothers Day, but you know how that went). Not that I was holding out hope he would do something nice for me this weekend, but I am SICK after all, as are 2 of the kids. So I told him it was fine for him to go because I would rather he go and enjoy himself than sitting at home resenting me because he didn't (which he tends to do). That I would rather him go so I did not have to watch him NOT pay attention to me. He said that it was not fair of me to say (I am obviously not communicating well, but I am just so tired and over trying) and that he does pay attention to me on the weekends. I reminded him of our several conversation about how I am not interested in having a Weekend Husband, I need more than attention 2 days a week. Then he insists that he only works one hour an evening on his computer. Which is utter bullsh*t. More like 3 hours a night. It is always on his lap. He considers the fact that we all sit down as a family most every evening for dinner (in which he does not engage in conversation with anyone, eats and gets up and leaves the table when he is done) as time with me.

Really?

*SIGH*

He is so tired of me and I am so tired of him.

1) Make sure that you are being pleasant to your DH when he is home. If it isn't a nice place to be, he isn't going to want to be there. Yes that will be hard.

2)
You two need to POJA...instead of him being resentful of staying home, you were resentful of him going. Neither case is good. What could have been a compromise? He goes with the kids?

3) Your DH is really trying to have you come to CA with him and that is a GOOD THING. He is trying to set it up so he won't be alone with Her. You reallllllly need to do everything you can to be here. Otherwise he hears that he needs to be with you but then YOU are not the one wanting to WALK your TALK. Surely you have a friend who can help you out if you discuss how important this is to your marriage.

Oh, I know - I was very pleased when he came right home after finding out about the conference and about her being in attendance. He has done a great job the past 2 years to make me feel safe when it comes to her. We have FOUR children. We have limited resources for them to be cared for for a week. It is what is i, I cannot pull something out of a hat. He did tell me, though, and in a way that made me feel that he would stay true to his word, that he would cancel - not a problem, if we were not able to procure care for the kids. Well, here we are and he been pushing forward with the trip. Which hurts me. What I need from him is to say "we tried, but you are more important than this conference" and let them know. It is not fair to me OR his work to continue on like everything is fine.

No, I do not have a friend who can watch my 4 children for a week. My 3 closest friends are all single mothers with jobs.

I am in a really bad space right now. I do not think I could put a smile on my face if I tried. It physically hurts. I mean, truly - my face hurts. The moment I put on a smile, my H hopes that means we can sweep whatever is going on under the rug. I am tired of doing that.

He is not on board with POJA. I have a few Harley books and he thinks it is not possible.

Now he told me he wants to get away this weekend to get away from my anger. I am not angry. I am hurt. I have not communicated much at all this past week because I am just so tired of asking for my needs to be met and getting told he is too busy with work.

Say, "Great! Me, too. Where are we going?"

Well, the original plan was we were both supposed to go. We have no one to sit with the kids (even though his parents live in the town this event is at, but that is another post lol).

Since I cannot go, he is very much wanting to go without me.

So he just told me that I am not taking into account his hurt right now. I literally have no idea what he is talking about because he NEVER TELLS ME. What hurt? He says he does not WANT to work as much as he does, but he HAS to. He feels its a damned if he does, damned if he doesnt situation. If he doesnt give me the time I need, I get upset and our home/love life suffers. If he doesnt give his work the time it needs, that suffers. He gets bombarded with demanding people all.day.long. I honestly do not know how he deals with some of these people, one of the things I admire about him is how he handles them. But its a double edged sword for both of us.

In yet another attempt to come to some sort of ... idea, I just emailed him this:

If you want to know what my current needs are, I can tell you. Do we need to come up with a time frame? I am willing to compromise to get what I need from you. I will say that 2 days a week is not enough. What would work for you? They are:

Affection
Attention
Sex
Conversation (that does NOT include your job - I do not think we have had a conversation outside of your work or the kids in a very long time).

Are those needs that you feel you can meet? Do you feel those are unreasonable? Attainable? Outlandish? Doable (hopefully the sex is "doable" lol).

for the past 6 months SF has decreased from 5 to 10 times a week to once a week? meaning you guys were having sex up to 10 times a week?

if it makes you feel any better, for the past 8 months, my wife and i have gone from SF ONCE, maybe twice a week, to maybe ONCE a month...

what i would give for my wife to call me up and tell me to get my butt home during my lunch break for SF...i'd die from shock or have a wreak on the way home...

Gdar, I remember you from before. Your H worked with OW for a while after your d-day, right?

Aside from this upcoming trip, are you absolutely certain they have no work contact with each other, even occasional?

Even if they don't, I am wondering if knowing he would again see her at conferences, etc, has kept him foggy ~ because that's how he sounds to me...foggy.

I am really sorry you are going through this!
((gdar))

Mr Anderson, you are correct. What a problem my husband has, right? lol

Susie, they do not work at the same location, so they do NOT see each other. I have full access to everything, there has been NO contact. She is blocked from even contacting him via email or FB. This would and has been the one and only conference they would attend together, being they no longer work together.

Thank you for the hug. I freaking need it.

I believe my husband is a workaholic, but one that KNOWS he is, but will not make the changes he needs to fix it. He wants to be the best at everything, always has, and he needs people to think he is top dog. Everyone but me, I guess.

My heart is feeling a bit better as the day wears on and we talk, but my head and face are still POUNDING and it won't stop. I hope it doesn't stay this way all weekend. I bet you if he took the time and just touched me in a caring way, it will melt away.

gdar, I think you are right to be alarmed now that it seems he is going to go to the conference with OW w/o you.

What are you going to do if he doesn't cancel? That would be a dealbreaker for me, period.

{{{more hugs}}}}

No, he will not be going to that conference without me. He would not do that. It would be a dealbreaker, he knows that. I do not think we have come this far (in regards to recovery from the EA) to take those steps back.

I really think he believes somehow, we will both go. Without a plan in place to make it happen.

Ok, hubby wants to go on a date tonight (2 of the 4 kids have plans) and I have lost my front tooth.

No, I am not kidding.

I am in the process of a tooth implant and my "flipper" is missing. I am literally sitting here front toothless. Um, this will not work for a date night. LOL

Ask your husband to get the childcare for his trip out of town. Then, you will be able to go with him.

OMG, I could've written this...

I sincerely held that belief, too, for many years, that I was unable to give myself respite form the isolation I felt when my H withdrew. For me, I learned that I can give myself this respite, choose my attitude regardless of my H's or anyone else's actions or inactions. I found this went right along with my MB program, halving my H's withdrawals. This was in line with my goals.

Both of you, jayne and Gdar, have had Hs that do work with you under the right conditions. I have hope for both of you in reaching your goals

What would work for you here? What if you went to your H and asked for a hug? How about planning RC and FC time, getting it on the calendar Sundays, before the week starts? And then following through on your own by yourself or with your kids, even if your H gets bogged down with "work obligations" as the week goes on because your happiness is worth investing in? And then you can share your O&H with your H, how much fun you're having, how cool it would be if your H can join you next time. Wouldn't that make it as simple as possible for your Hs to jump in?

I think it's possible that someone who is reluctant to comfort a sad spouse would be less reluctant to join a happy spouse in fun things.

Is your H related to my H?

"All I want for date night is my two front teeth, my two front teeth, thee my two front teeth! Gee, if I could only have my two front teeth, then I could witth you "Mewwry ________ !!!"

Fill in the balnk....

I have a lot of issues within my own marriage...the largest of which is my husband's lack of helping with the FS, which has become my number one EN. I still haven't figured out if I'm my worst enemy with regard to my ongoing building resentment and anger, resulting from my busted and overdrawn love bank. While the MB concepts appear simple, sometimes applying them is complicated.

But I was also realizing that the inability to talk to my husband about this was feeding this whole cycle. I'm not necessarily pointing fingers at him; we were both perpetuating this cycle.

I don't have an easy fix, Gdar...I'm just relating my own experiences in the hope that maybe something I've learned, or found solace in doing, will help you figure out how to handle your own situation. That's one of the benefits of this forum, right?

So here's what I learned.

I already knew that when my $LB is overdrawn, I withdraw. But this weekend, I decided to change that. Someone gave me the very good advice: change your steps, changes the dance. Or something like that.

So instead of withdrawing, I initiated some great um..intimacy.

And then we had a wonderful discussion. We didn't solve the world's problems, or our problems. We didn't even make a very large dent! But I felt a lot better for having shared and having been shared with, on his part.

So I have a new pair (well, used..on sale..money is tight!) of dancing shoes and will attempt to wear them instead of my old comfy slippers.

Wow, thank you guys for the support, I really need it. I am excited for my appt with my MC this Tuesday. I have never felt manic, but I swear these ups and downs really stress me out.

Update: Husband stayed home this weekend and did not leave to go help his friend out at the festival. I know he was upset about not going, but he did not say it. I could sense it in his body language. Instead of making him feel bad for making ME feel like I was keeping from what he really wanted to be doing, I kept thanking him for every.little.thing. With a smile. Friday night we did not connect, but I don't think either one of us were ready to let go of our frustrations for letting go's sake. Saturday morning we playfully argued a bit about who was going to get up with the kids (it has been me every weekend for the past couple of months). HE initiated SF (yay!!!!!) He did it the way I like it, it did not feel like he had to try too hard (like he was doing me a favor). I did not get the connection I was looking for, but it was still enjoyable.

He arranged for our 13 year old to babysit the younger 2 so he and I could attend a retirement party that evening for a couple of hours. Then he bought my favorite bottle of wine and BBQd some ribs for dinner, so when we got home, we could have movie night in our theater room. We had SUCH a good time at the party - with each other. We are just really getting to know this group of people, and they all a decade or older than we are (H has always had issues with enjoying people's company that are the age of his parents - just how he was raised). I was assuming he would not enjoy himself that evening because of that, plus the fact he is the youngest one and the boss. I know sometimes that can be hard on him. We laughed and laughed, had great conversation. I adore his secretary and her husband, it was just a nice time.

When we got home for our date night in the theather room, we both fell asleep on each other 30 minutes into Sherlock Holmes. LOL

Sunday was the best, though. Overshare here, but we SF's 3 times and the connection WAS there. It was a lazy day with the family, but the smiles, the eye contact, the way it used to be not all that long ago was back. We were all smiles all day. We curled up to sleep all night.

This is what I need from him and it felt so great to get it. I told him several times how happy I was, how great it felt - and he feels the same way. He says "lets keep it up". That is what I want, too. For me, though, I cannot just have this once a week. I don't need a fairytale, I just need an effort to stay connected so we don't fall off track like we always do.

Jayne, may I ask - do you and your H go through the cycle, too? It will be GREAT for a while, then not so great for a while longer? I am really wanting this cycle to end.

Oh, I forgot to tell you about my tooth. Hahaaa

I think my dentist is MacGyver. He made me a temp tooth from matchsticks and some gum. It should hold me over until my my final placement in a few weeks.

I still cannot believe our puppy ate it!

Ok, so here are a few questions I have and would really appreciate some input from those of you that have overcome a similar experience.

I will be checking out Flylady again today (checked it out a couple of years ago.

One of my previous top needs was DS. I never get it on any consistent basis, and after some really great advice from Ears I ended up rearranging my priorities and I no longer pursue it as a need. It was hard at first, I had to wade through some resentment, but eventually it let up. It only really upsets me when all of my other needs are unmet and THAT is on top of it, if that makes any sense. When my needs go unmet, I tend to get pissed at everything he does/doesnt do. Working on that.

So, I am not a neat freak, I am far from having any sort of OCD. Picked up works for me, I don't need anything shiny and scrubbed. Just presentable. With a 4k sq ft house and 6 people in it, rarely is "clean". I do not like chaos and utter disorder, but more than anything, I do not enjoy picking up after people. My kids know their dishes go in the sink. My 2 year old even stands on his tippy toes and pushes his stuff in there after he eats, no joke. My husband never puts his away. It just is not important to him to have things put away or anything clean. When he invites people over, I go into a frenzy cleaning because I do not like people coming into my home when it is a mess. He only pitches in if it is a party. If it just family, a friend or two, nothing. I know this about him, I have worked really hard to be ok with it.

So, I guess my question is: since domestic stuff/house in order is not important to him, he could really care less how do we make this work better? Remember, POJA is not something H feels is possible, so that does not work. Basically it will be me needing to pick and choose my battles. If I want something cleared away, even if it his jacket thrown over the couch, his laptop bag plopped on the kitchen counter, his keys/wallet/insides of his pockets on the bathroom counter (he can never find these things when he leaves for work in the morning, because "shedding" the night before is always in a different place) it will be me that will take care of it. Or I wind up with 4 ties, 4 shirts and 2 jackets on my couch by mid-week.

I am a lot better at just doing it, I no longer get upset about it. I used to get annoyed when he would leave his sock, underwear, tshirt, pant drawers all open every single day because our kids would bonk into them (the littles) and you can see our dresser when you are near the doorway to our room. Now I just shut them. It does not bother me now.

Thing is, after so many of these that I just decide to do myself around here, the more I put on my plate, the faster I get burnt out. Team that with him being too busy with work and my needs get tossed to the wayside. I am really trying to find some balance, but we are just so different in our approach to "what matters".

G, I have no idea how that feels. But...I would stick with a Flylady routine, and put all his things in a basket when you're doing a fly-over.

And then put the basket somewhere that pleased me. Like a closet, or in the garage.

I did that for a while, suggested by Ears and Stella. Then he was getting upset with me because he could never find anything, and felt I was doing it to be hurtful. It just was not the message I was wanting to put across and it was not worth it to me to have him feel I was doing it out of spite (instead of self preservation).

Perfect time to POJA a solution. Tell him you get annoyed by his habit of throwing his things here and there, and you feel good when the house is picked up...you're willing to pick it up, but to put everything 'where it belongs' will bring resentment to you, as will 'leaving it where it lies'. Offer your solutions, and ask for his. If he says he wants one chair where he can pile his crud, let him have it...maybe ask for a regular clearing of the crud, like I do with my kitchen junk drawer--I want it left alone until I go through it, because it is my catch-all, and I will purge it once I have trouble closing it. Maybe say, "Will you clean it all off once the chair is no longer visible beneath your stuff?" lol.

I think you missed the part that POJA is not something we do - he does not feel it is possible.

I really, really feel I have tried all of the approaches. I have addressed it like this, and it will stick. For a day or two.

Gdar,

I too struggle with the lack of DS from my husband. Like yours it doesn't matter if the place is picked up when company drops over, his attitude is "well, this is a real house, and they have to expect that." lol

I've had to turn loose of some of my expectations for how things should run in order to not feel resentful. I do the basket pickup, but I put the carpola on his bedside table, or if there is no room next to his side of the bed. He does complain about people moving "his stuff", but not too often.

He does think that we should be teaching the kids how to keep a clean house, but his version of clean and mine are very different. I've recently stopped a couple of chores that I used to do, and told him about it. We don't do intense POJA, but we do discuss what things might make us feel better.

It helps me to consider what I need to make myself happy. I'm with you on the working at night thing, my husband's blackberry used to drive me insane. I even dropped it in the ocean one time, accidentally. Sorta.

Now DH has changed jobs and no longer has the blackberry (yea! Hooray!). I like the suggestion that you find things to do that you like and invite your DH to join you.

That post made me smile about the "sorta" dropping the phone in the ocean. Thanks!

Really, I have let a lot of the DS stuff go. I would rather he pay attention to me, be affection, PRESENT and communicate. Of course, these needs change up , but as long as my truly "emotional" needs are being met, I don't care if I trip on his shoe now and again.

Interesting what you say Gdar about DS. I think I am the same way. If my other needs are being met, then DS doesn't really matter. If they aren't then that gets piled on top of the list of everything else DH isn't doing.

I haven't read ALL of your thread, just the last few. Thought I'd chime in with a few ideas and see what you think.

First off - I think it's possible to implement the ideas of POJA without actually calling it POJA. You ask him what he would like to do to resolve the issue. If, like he did in the past, he agrees to something and it lasts two days bring it up again and say you agreed to this a few days ago. It isn't working. Is there another way you'd like to solve this? And keep at it until you find a solution that works.

Also, it seems most men have their 'clean' filter set way higher than most women. When I go into the kitchen I see a floor that needs to be mopped, a fridge that needs to be emptied, a dishwasher full of dishes that need to be put away, and a stove top that needs some cleaning. My husband sees a clean counter, no dishes in the sink and a walkable floor - the kitchen is clean in his eyes, a wreck in mine.

What has helped for us is specific, thoughtful requests. I don't know if you've read the LB book but there is a world of difference between a Selfish Demand and a Thoughtful Request. If I phrase what it is I need, very specifically I often get it. i.e. "Could you put up the dishes in the dishwasher for me, please." as opposed to "The kitchen is such a wreck the dishes need to be put up before I even start cooking."

We have a tradition of Saturday morning chores. I'll usually present a list of things I'd like to get done to DH like, I need to do 3 loads of laundry, clean the kitchen, vacuum and tidy the bathroom. Would you be willing to help me with some of those? And he'll tell me which ones he'd like to do. Or he'll tell me if he had other plans for that morning, like mowing the yard or working on homework. See he has the option of not doing any of those. There have been weekends when he says "I'm just too overloaded I need Saturday to relax." and I accept that and plan my chores accordingly. Perhaps the bathroom can wait, and maybe I can get away with just one load of laundry.

If I phrase the request thoughtfully, fully ok with my full chores list not getting done, I'm more likely to have a willing participant when I clean the house and it can turn into UA time for us.

Finally, it seems little, but appreciation goes a LONG way along with a little bit of Radical Honesty. Like "It really bothers me when you leave your clothes right there." or "It really bugs me that sometimes your koolaid jug drips red koolaid onto the counter - it is very hard to clean." Then when I notice him NOT putting his clothes in that spot, or cleaning up the drops of koolaid I make a point to thank him specifically. "Thank you for not putting your clothes there, I really appreciate it." or "I noticed you cleaned up the drops of Koolaid, thanks so much." We make gratitude a constant habit in our home.

I'd say we thank each other for things half a dozen times each day. Thanks for cooking dinner, thanks for taking out the trash, thanks for getting up with the baby, thanks for throwing away your napkin. It creates a desire to help, because we know our help doesn't go unnoticed. It's easy to think "why bother, no one will notice"

Way opposite in my house! lol. If the counters are clear and the sink is empty, it's GREAT. My H nitpicks the insides of the cabinet doors and underneath the fridge.

Just so ya'll know, Steve Harley recommends that each spouse make a list of the housework duties that are important to them to be done, and then that person DOES THEM. I love me some SH.

Yes. Yesyesyesyesyes.

I'm due for an update on my thread. I've got a lot to do today but I'll try to update later on today.

POJA needs to be married to FGSN. (Dr. Harley actually uses that acronym in Effective Marriage Counseling, but we don't seem to use it here.) Anyone can decide on their own to stop doing things their spouse isn't enthusiastic about, though of course you can't make your spouse reciprocate. But you can do more than just that one-sided decision to follow POJA: you can try bits and pieces, or maybe the whole of, FGSN. Without using any acronyms on your spouse at all, actually.

I am having the same issue with the workahoic husband.
I have been talking to Steve Harley and the first thing he said for us to do is figure out what our goal for our marriage is. If you can't agree, then you can't work together to reach it. You could ask your husbnd if he agrees that the ideal scenario would be for the parents of his children to be in love with each other. If he says yes, then say that talking to Steve can help figure out a plan for couples like you.
I am starting down this path and my DH has talked to Steve twice now and we are going to work on our marriage goal. Hopefully then that will get my DH to realize that he can't prioritze work over his marriage and family if he wants to reach that goal.

See, we looked at that section and hubby thought it was funny. He wouldn't have anything on his list. LOL

I have a counseling session this afternoon. I have never been to one before (outside of MC) and I am nervous. I feel so manic, though. Last week I was in bad shape, feeling reaaly low and this week I feel great. H has kept it up for almost 5 days now, meeting my needs. I am not sure what to expect. I had a list in my head of things I would like to talk about, but afraid that when I get there, I will forget a bunch.

My H is a Workaholic, but not a house "putzer". Garden hose- all over the drive- all summer. Tools everywhere, rusted.

NOTHING "dude stuff" is ever picked up - or put away.. I think this would drive most men crazy - not my H.

Until he wants something.

He "loaned" the wood tools to his nephew years ago. I always wishing that I had the miter saw or electic saw. I finally broke down and bought a RYOBI set- and now the batteries/pieces -- who knows??

Drives.me.nuts-- GIVE ME a good old "house putzer" any day of the year! You ladies with house putzing spouses quit !!! I mean it.

I mean it! I am a woman on the edge! If i could find my pruninig shears - lookout!

OH THANK GOD I am not the only one with one of these! Our neighbors on each side of us have the most well organized garages, with all of their tools in place and order. When they use them, imagine this - they put them back! WHOA! What a concept! LOL I do not think my H has ever coiled back up the hose before! I did it last weekend, and then he drug it back out 1 minute later to wash something off at the end of the driveway (so the whole length of the hose) and then just left it here. I said "I JUST rolled that up and it was quite the effort, so could you please put it back how you found it". It annoyed him, but he did it. I mean, sheesh! Our garbage/yard debri/recycle containers are always in the driveway, even though our CC&Rs say you have to put them away. I will put them away in the garage, then if I ask him to take the trash out and he goes to the front of the house and the can is not out, he gets upset that I put it away.

Sometimes men, it is nice to have a MAN around the house!

Oh, and Barbie - your shears are lost, mine are broken. He used them for something they were not intended for, broke them, then left them laying on the garage floor.

I have a putterer, but he leaves the tools all over the place... and NOT even at his last putter site!! I used to be amused that my Dad would get aggravated at my Mom's following him around while he worked on projects, cleaning up behind him and putting all his tools and sundries back in order where they belonged. I NOW UNDERSTAND MY MOTHER. (At least on this issue.)

I CANNOT FIND ANY OF MY TOOLS WHEN I NEED THEM!!! I spent more time last night trying to find a stud finder, a level, and the screwdriver set than I actually spent hanging my new lamp. One of them was actually where my H is hanging shelves (his latest project)... the other two were in odd places around the house, none were where they were supposed to be OR where he was working on anything with them.

It's getting so bad I'm threatening to buy my own tools, and my own toolbox, and LOCK THE SUCKER.

May I join the club ladies! My H is exactly like this....he leaves everything all over the place and gets so mad and accuses me of tossing the tool out in the garbage becacuse he can't find it!

I was mowing the lawn (at other old house) and nearly ran over a nails and large hammer in the high grass next to the fence...he was out there nailing the wooden piece down and just left the tools right there! He was done with the job so WHY would you leave these things in the grass??

Our garage is a pig sty and you can almost never locate what you need....I have a tiny tool box with some tools in it...it is hidden....H will ask me for my tool box in the past and I told him NO....cause you won't give me back my tools!

I think this must be put on my list of annoying habits.

LOL! I feel so much better! I HAD my own toolbox when we married that I had exactly what I needed for when I lived on my own. I have no idea where a single thing from that toolbox has disappeared to.

When I need help around the house, say because he has invited people over, he will head straight to the garage and "clean it", when he knows damn well that does nothing to help me IN the house. He will tell me he is helping, and pardon the DJ here, but he is full of it and I know he goes out there to avoid helping with chores that actually NEED to get done. LOL

lol ..... I thought my H only did this.

This is not good started laughing brought back memories. More djing in my head. Gotta get off of here for awhile.

Oh, on a more personal note, I was wondering if I could get some feedback before my appt this afternoon(in 3 hours or so).

This rollercoaster we have been on the past 2 years has left a sour taste in my best friend's mouth. She actually called him up one time and told him to be a better husband. Luckily, my husband agreed with her and was not upset, but I was a bit taken aback. The day before our wedding was only the 2nd time she had ever met him because at the time, she lived in another state. She took me aside, within ear shot of my H and got very stern with me and said "who are you and what have you done with my friend"? She thought I was acting weird and too "conforming". He ended saying something to me, as well, saying he thought I was acting immature and like a ditz around her. I was pretty torn. I felt like I was being me on both counts. I had not seen my best friend in over 6 months and I was giddy with excitement that she was here for the wedding and I felt I was just being a giddy girl, happy to be getting married. I did not feel I was conforming him, I was just... happy.

Anyway, she is worried about me and was the one that encouraged me to see a counselor. She told me she does not recognize me anymore. That my H has basically ruined me (because of the EA). I have lost who I am. Sometimes I agree. Then my other best friend tells me she thinks my other friend is nuts and that she sees me just being married, being in a partnership and working my butt off to make it work. That she thinks I am still "me", just busier.

So this is where I need help. In my mind when I think of what I will bring up in counseling today, this is one of them. That my best friend does not even recognize me anymore and that I try too hard to make my H happy and I do not get enough reciprocation.


Example: since I have met my H I have changed the way I dress to the way he likes, my hair, the amount of make up I wear, who I spend time with socially, where I go socially - um, basically I have given up any social life whatsoever. He used to put me down about how it is in my nature to be the center of attention and that I needed that social outlet to feel like a whole person (we own the Birthday Book and it gives each day of the year a personality description for the people born on those days). That I was too dependent upon a social life in order to feel ok. He actually put me down a LOT when we were dating, but that is a whole different post. It got to the point where sometimes I felt he put me in this little box, fitting perfectly to the way he wanted me to be so he would see me as good enough for him. He knows I have always felt this way. He is not like that near as much as he used to be, now that his insecurities have faded over the years (which interestingly enough, I gained insecurities I never knew I could even have over the years).

So again, I have changed my appearance, my friends, my social life, etc... all because it makes him happy.

When I ask him what he has changed to make me happy, he says that I knew who he was when we got married and that he should not have to change (again, this is from an old conversation, he might not even feel that way anymore, I really do not know).

So I feel I have done a lot of things to please him, because I want him to be happy. Then the EA and breaking my heart into a million pieces. I made all of these changes to please him and it still was not good enough. I met all of his needs and I think along the way I lost who I was because I was trying so hard to be what he wanted me to be.

I think I need to address this in counseling, but I do not even know how to bring it up or where to start. Or if it is all a crock? Gah! I am so nervous.

Hour and a half to go...

I'll give a little shot at this, Gdar, ignore me if I'm way off.

Your friend is not acting like a friend of your marriage, so in MB culture, she needs to go away. What you need are friends who will smack you in the forehead when you're being dumb, all while still supporting you in the direction you wish to go. Which is married, right? Not married at all cost, of course, but married with the customary surcharges.

I think it's your social nature to conform...socialites often do...so for you to have made adjustments to your self to please your social companion (H) is perfectly understandable. I think your friend perhaps believes in a less-conforming way of being, which is fine for her, not fine when she attempts to conform you to her thought process.

I also think that perhaps you have swung too far in your conforming to what you believe he wants to where even he may have trouble recognizing the girl he fell in love with. If I were you, I would seriously reconsider any changes you've made that don't feel authentic to you. Just because you're different than you were doesn't mean you're less 'you', if the changes are a result of maturing and growing. Lord knows I'm pretty different from how I was four children ago...it doesn't mean I'm a different person, though. I'm still me, with less daring. lol.

Is this with an IC, or SH?

With an IC, I would open the topic by stating that you've heard comments from old friends that you're not yourself anymore, and talk about your changes, and mention those you feel are authentically YOU and those that you hold resentment over, and try to work out a plan for deciding what to do about accepting the real you stuff while adjusting the others to remove the resentment...in a way that fits with your ultimate goal. Begin with the end in mind!

Thank you, CWMI. Let me first start by saying that I do not *take* any of my BF's *advice* because she has the worse relationship history of any person I know. I know she is just trying to "protect" me because we have been friends for many, many years. Through marriages, births, divorces, affairs, breast cancer, a tornado. My mom cannot stand her because she does not have a filter, but funny thing is, either does my mom. LOL

I am going to our MC, but by myself. We "graduated" from MC a while back (which I thought was ridiculous) and my H is too busy with work and we are having a really hard time coming up with sitters to go together. I believe he feels this is my issue, so I should be the one going, anyway.

Thank you for the suggestions, I appreciate it. The closer the time comes to the appt, the more antsy I feel.

Really, why is this so stressful? Maybe because I have never been to IC before.

You maybe nervous right now but I always feel better & more positive after I see my IC.

She's explains a lot of my feelings to me that I do not understand or want to acknowledge.

Just a nudge You will feel better I promise If he/or she is any good.

If this was you first appointment, talking about how you are "losing yourself" may be more than you can cover in 50 min.

I hope it went well.

Well, I really feel I did not get anything out of it at all. I feel like I paid someone my $10 co-pay to be nice to me. Our MC is a really nice person. But as a IC, I feel like I got nothing out of it.

I am really disappointed. Basically he said I need to do some more things for me. Even though I had just got done explaining for 50 minutes, that we have 4 babysitters outside of family, yet the several times we have tried to get one so we could get out of the house, no one was available. It just is not that easy sometimes. My "homework" for last night after my appt was to go do something nice for myself and not go home until after the kids' bed time so I could go home and not have to take care of it. I text my husband my plan, to which he replied "have a glass of wine waiting for you here" and that he was putting the younger 2 to bed. I grabbed my favorite snack (my nice thing for me), then headed home to ONE kid in bed.

Before I left for the appt, and I was happy my H came home early in order for me to go, he did not say anything about it. In fact, since I told him I made an appt to see the counselor, he has not mentioned a single thing about it. No questions, no comments (which I read as no concern for the space I am in, but I know that would be a DJ).

Well, when I came home, he is just staring at me with this look on his face like he wants to ask me something. He is not looking at me in a "I care for you" way - I wish I could explain it. Then he asked me what we talked about. Ugh. Here we go. If it is true, is it still a DJ?

My H wanted to know what we talked about, meaning what *I* said about *him* to the counselor. I immediately started to shut down, because I knew this conversation would not go well. I did not feel like arguing, I did not feel like defending myself. I really wanted some actual concern from my H about how I am feeling and why I felt the need to see the counselor in the first place.

I explained that he insisted that I must do more for myself, and I must delegate more often, meaning getting more support from H to allow me to get a break. Before I got the chance to say anything else, he cuts me off with "I tell you to take off and see your friends ALL OF THE TIME". *Sigh* I asked if he could give me an example of when the last time he encouraged me to do something for myself (I said this very calm, I think I did the right thing here??? by asking him to give me examples?) He says "just a couple of weeks ago, a month tops" (which is not accurate and he could not come up with an example at all). The last time I left the house was a month ago after I emailed him and TOLD HIM that I was going to meet 2 friends for dinner because I was feeling cooped up.

Anyway, after he cut me off and then gave me no examples, he gets upset and says" I KNEW you what light you would paint me in to the counselor. I KNOW how you can be about this".

I got very upset, instantly flushed and I rolled my eyes (not cool, but it was the bet I could do at the time), but said simply "we did not talk about YOU, and in fact talked about ME" and left it at that. Conversation over.

Really? This is what I am left with? A husband who does not care about my mental health, but how I portrayed him to a freaking counselor? THAT was his concern!!! How did I end up in this place? I am so hurt. I do not even know what to do. This is what makes me want to just throw my arms up.

If you believe in the marriage builders program, you should consider talking to Steve Harley instead of your MC. It seems as though you have been giving givin giving and your husband has been taking taking taking. So your MC says for you to take more, but without considering the impact on your DH.

I would love to. I cannot afford it (yes, I know "you cant afford not to), but realistically, I cannot afford $$ it.

Oh, sure - the counselor suggests I take my time, then give him his time (and this is exactly how my H thinks it should work).

I forgot to add I was also supposed to go to bed with earplugs early and try and get some sleep, because I am lacking big time in this area. I told my H how tired I was and what the counselor suggested, then he turns the TV, brings a bag of chips and dips TO bed (which is on of his biggest LB, he knows it) and then when he is ready, just turns off the light and goes right to sleep. I was up most of the night, stressed out.

You paid 10 bucks?...that's some good insurance...I pay 30 bucks...LOL.

Gdar, my wife and I both see the same MC as our IC...and yes, I sometimes feel that my wife could be painting me in a bad light and it's tempting to try and pry information out of her, but I don't...I ask her how her meeting went, she replies..."It went fine"...and I reply..."that's great"...if she wants to elaborate, cool, if not...I don't push the issue.

This was your first meeting and should have been a...get to know the counselor...and the counselor getting to know you and your issues that brought you to his office. This could take some time to unwrap everything, to really put a finger on the pulse of your problems.

Give it 5 sessions...you'll know within 5 sessions whether or not this counselor is working out...it could be you'll have to change counselors...

Are you on any medications...antidepressants, sleep aids?

Mr. Anderson, I know the counselor well. He has been our MC for 2 years.

No meds and I do not feel comfortable taking sleep aids because with 4 kids in the house, at any time and often enough, a kid is up sick (and then we had a home invasion 2 months ago and now it freaks me out) or up needing something.

5 sessions. I have an appt to see him in 2 weeks. After how my H made me feel about going, I am not sure how I feel about going back. Not a good space right now.

I just do not get it. I am tall, thin, attractive, fashionable, smart, funny, open minded, forward thinking, love SF, a good mom. I meet his needs (at least he says I do). Why is it, that when he KNOWS what mine are, we are in this spot? So frustrating. The more layers peel away, the more selfish I think he is. And he thinks he is anything but.

I agree with wanna. I have been reading your posts throughout the forum & this thread...I see you giving and your H taking. He seems to feel entitled and you seem to feel obligated. This dynamic is difficult to break - especially for the person who takes; however, it can be done with the right tools & guidance.

Be prepared for major (and sometimes ugly) resistance from your H because he sees no reason to change the way things are & (from what you say) views you as "the problem." I say be prepared because I think that if you're prepared you'll be able to deal with it better.

When he fires back with some of the more hurtful statements to the effect that:

-you're in the wrong
-your concerns are not valid
-your observations are not accurate
-you're being too emotional or you're being irrational
-you're too ((insert insulting description here))

you can stop to think and remember that people (especially those who perceive they are losing their rightful place on top) will work like mad to restore the relationship to its prior state.

You can also be calm enough to use reverse babble in response to some of these things:

-you're in the wrong
These are my feelings and feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are.
-your concerns are not valid
Since I am half of this marriage my concerns are very important.
-your observations are not accurate
My observations may be different from yours because I am looking and listening through my own eyes and ears.
-you're being too emotional about xyz or you're being irrational about abc
I am interested in having a better relationship with you. My feelings about you and my thoughts about this situation are a big part of that.
-you're too ((insert insulting description here))
I'd like to focus on having a better relationship with you. I am just not happy with things the way they are.
or
I'm sorry you feel that way about me. Let's come up with ways to make things better between us.

Thank you for the reply, Chris. I have been doing a bit better at the reverse babble. I started to do that last night, but then realized it was just hurting me more to even have to DO it, if that makes any sense.

Right now, I am trying to figure out how, or if, I should respond to his "me me me me" comments. How I painted *him* to the counselor, how *he works so hard*, how *he is more sick*, how *he is more tired*, how *his day was harder*, etc...

I want care in my marriage to be a 2 way street. The things going through my head right now are not pretty, not productive and downright freaking me out. Like having an RA to wake him up. Which I know is utterly stupid and I would not do it, but it is still going through my thoughts.

Also, you need to practice sorting things out in your mind & then speaking clearly to your H about what you want.

For example...with the chips & bed thing - rather than lay there fuming, ask


Don't lay there fuming...assuming he's doing it to be a jerk (DJ!) and expecting him to read your mind (Emotional Dishinesty).

Ask me how I know about this...I dare you. LOL!

Gdar,

Would you consider reading this link?

The Boomerang Relationship

Also, could you make a list of ways your H does meet ENs in the marriage (to see if he doesn't meet the right ones and is off target; or more like the article, doesn't meet majority on purpose; or if there's no room left except just one way to meet one EN?).

LA

How do you know? How do you know?

I have asked him before to please eat his chips someplace else. Many times. Especially when I am watching a show that is intense, and then he makes that awful Opening Chip Bag Sound, then the wolfing down the chips.

Now, if I was to have asked how he felt about eating in another room, no matter what my reason (and here comes a DJ, but I have BTDT), he gets PA on me "oh, so are you trying to get rid of me, you don't want me around - I can just go downstairs everynight if that is what you want". Seriously. He will say it in a jokingly "hurt" manner (passive aggressive).

I already have this page bookmarked. Yes, our relationship is MUCH like that.

I also have the book Living with the Passive Aggressive Man". I have actaully learned some good tools reading that. Problem is, I have never been this... low before, and it is clouding my ability to deal with anything right now.

LA, I am going to copy and paste from that page. This is 100% our relationship. Each and every word.

How the Woman's Needs Contributes to the Unhealthy Dynamics of the Relationship

Passive aggressive behavior does not happen in a vacuum; it requires a partner to bounce things off of. This problems exists between people--one who resists and one who get frustrated. The need for a woman to choose and remain with a passive aggressive partner is a dynamic that is set up in her childhood. The little girl learns this pattern in childhood observing her parents. One parent withdraws and frustrates the spouse who becomes angry. The little girl learns to take care of others and get depressed when they don't appreciate it. Desperately she wants the parents to change but cannot express her deep frustration.

When she grows up, the woman unconsciously chooses men who will play out the familiar patterns of her childhood of retreat and attack. She falls for the man's charm, his neediness or sense of poise and togetherness and ignores his real lack of connection with others. If the man's hostility and withdrawal is left unchallenged, the woman's doubt in herself grows. His failures become her failures. The harder she works on the relationship, the cleverer he is in eluding her. Her life is in continual uproar as she mulls over the inconsistencies in daily events. He feels threatened and insecure and withdraws, she gets angry. She gets angry, he withdraws and the unresolved conflict boomerangs between then. Relationships, which do not allow straight talk, frankness and appropriate expression of anger become destructive.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three roles--the Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes the Blamer, the [censored], and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship. She is caught in her role as a martyr-victim, codependent rescuer or controlling manager as she does not know how to do anything different. She rides the emotional roller coaster as she always wants more from her man--more commitment, more cooperation and more doing what he says he will do. Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression. She may repeat choosing passive aggressive men in several relationships until she learns how her own neediness sets her up for relationship failure.

I really would like to address last night, about how he turned my counseling session into him being the victim. I DO pick and choose my battles, but I feel he needs to know how hurtful this was. I am coming up short in a way to express this without him rolling his eyes with "what NOW".

I am not expecting an apology. He never comes to me first (meaning he never communicates about our relationship first, he retreats and stays there, even if he has hurt me), so I sit here all day wondering when and if I will hear from him today. I am not expecting to, but I would like to. He is busy at work, so I am not sure if I should contact him about this. Ugh, I hate it when my days are consumed by this stuff. I cannot focus on anything else.

Gdar, I think you're so tired (to the point of inertia) because you are at the final point we get to when the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of change.

I think you really want to stop the dance.

And you've refused again and again to stop doing the steps.

And now, you're ready to change the steps.

You caught the part where the P/A partner cannot continue the dance if you stop your half. The dance changes.

As for the interaction after counseling:


Did you skip over the P/A article where it says your H has a deep, abiding fear...a constant anxiety? Did you not see his courage in asking you about the session, or did your DJ set him up to be the bad guy, from the look in his eye through to the AO you had?

I'm sorry your MC sucks at IC. Would you consider a variation on what the MC asked of you? Would you please stop over-doing? Would you please stop crowding your equal spouse out of the marriage? Would you please stop blaming him for your choices...changing so many things about yourself to please him and betray yourself...and then point at him for making you do them?

Because that's what sucks your soul out, seeing him doing that to you...taking on the responsibility for your actions AND his...being his cause, control and cure. Drains all our energy, depresses us and we feel paralyzed after years of so much effort...

which I think is the way our real self signals us to stand still...

hold still...

You are not a human doing...you are a human being. And "being together" is truly the union...and neither of you really had that to even begin your marriage...you each already had a child from prior marriages, and added two more.

That is tough on anyone on this planet...the bonding, the trust and the enjoyment of each other has a whole new set of limitations...

Add to that...if you change the way you dress, speak, mannerisms, all for HIS happiness, that is the sacrifice that kills what little bonding you guys had...it betrays yourself and your H.

Did you tell him "I'm going to change this and will resent you because I think it will make you happy and leave me still empty"? I don't think so...I don't believe we fill our resentment well out in the open...because that would give our spouse the opportunity to say, "Oh, no! That won't meet my EN...if you do and you resent, I'd really rather you not choose to do that, 'k?"

Like organic POJA. Nope. We over do and square off just enough room for our partners to meet our ENs when we want them to, in the way we want them to...and they rebel.

When you don't pursue and you don't distance...you're standing still. Stop and stand still in your marriage.

You are focused on YOUR hurt, your pain, your frustration and your feelings...all of which are corrosive because you also have the DJ that he's not focused on them...

which is you putting onto him double responsibility, too...and yes, we're raised with the belief "that's" the union...and it's not. It's enmeshment, a power struggle, and our own actions keep draining our own love banks as we continue that struggle to make our spouse give us the response we want, to experience the pain enough to stop hurting us.

You are and have been damaging your marriage and your H. I think you really want to stop...and you don't see how much that proving him wrong and bad, harmful to you...you're really signaling wildly to yourself to see the harm you're doing. Because that is not who you really are, Gdar.

So please do for yourself...do differently. Take your focus off of making others happy (you're not that powerful) and breathe, stand still and think...what's my part? Can't be all or nothing...just your part? With the kids, relatives, your H...everyone.

Your part depends on your code, mostly. What you hold yourself to...you were appreciative of your H coming home so you could attend IC...maybe you just didn't relate your sincere statement of appreciation to him with a hug and a kiss...and a smile in your post. I dunno. If you hold yourself to stating your appreciation when you are...then you crossed that boundary and must amend.

If you believe it is wrong to crush pain into your loved ones...then you will stop yourself and amend when you do. When you justify doing it because of how deep your pain is and you firmly believe that your H made all that pain inside you and you must beat him enough to stop hurting you...then you don't really have that belief in your code. It would cross the boundary of consideration, acceptance, honesty...a lot of boundaries.

And it would entitle him to hurt you to get you to stop hurting him.

Which is why the hurt has no ending and no beginning...just floods and takes over...shown as anger, rejection, frustration, emotional torture. And you're both doing it.

Don't coach yourself into entitlement...coach yourself into looking inside and stopping this persistent dance...because it's not your H...you've had this same relationship throughout your life. And you're sick of it.

You are powerful...you choose your thoughts, perception, beliefs and perspective. Stop mind-reading--you do it critically and what you do to H, you do to yourself...part of the sickness is you do that to you...it's why you changed a bunch of who you are and how you acted...not H.

You are love. You are made of love, got it? The dance comes from fear and we keep yelling that it's love because we believe it's the dance of our marriage, our only one with our spouse. It's not. Reacting to our fears justifies so much harm, deceit and disconnection.

Act, don't react.

Your H had the courage to ask you about your IC session...mine did not and would not. Not even to this day. Doesn't mean your H is better...means that you haven't considered, given the pattern of the boomerang, how your H has changed in tiny ways...different decisions.

And you don't ask to know...and you keep telling yourself he sings the old song, when really, he has changed some of the words.

He fears. You know you don't make him fear...and his fears are as valid as yours are. His pain is as real as yours is...and I don't see either of you knowing this reality...both are real. You don't validate and he doesn't...and you hate that he doesn't...you feel ready for his attacks at any point...and so is he for yours.

And all of this means to me that you are both in a place to soar. Truly. Stop the dance so you can do the MB steps. The dance is the marital Love Buster. You can stand still and listen, question yourself, hear your automatic assumptions and thoughts...really hear how you're coaching yourself.

Over-doers are as sick as under-doers, 'k? Get healthy, balanced and in love with yourself...through kindness, compassion, consideration, respect, acceptance and appreciation...make those your code to really live by...not to prove you're worth loving because of your actions...because you're made of it, Gdar. And you act like you aren't...and the resentment is the acid we drink and believe the other person will keel over.

Yes, please do treat yourself better...your focus has been sucked down his throat...and it's yours. Pull it back, make time for yourself...listen, know and understand. Then share.

Judging instead of understanding...it's like carrying a gavel made from lead. Lay it down...get to your most basic honesty...like when you picked up your snack and came home to only one child in bed (broken promise) and you didn't say when you saw his expression, "I'm wishing you'd respond to me differently. I'm reading you and feeling tense and angry...because I'm choosing to disrespect myself and you."

You can take time-outs when you interact...you can with the kids, with relatives and your H. Whether you take the time out honestly (stating why and when and what you're doing) or not is solely on you. You may still expect your H to respond differently even when you aren't doing differently.

You can choose to not have the interaction until you know you can be in control of yourself, with your focus on your code...you could have answered, "I want to share it with you tomorrow at 8:30pm. If I were to tell you right now, I would LB you, harm you and think you were making me. That's not what I want."

That's true consideration for your marriage...not based on his possible response (you DJ'd it wasn't going to go well...as if you control the outcome and know it...when you only know your part, your half, your actions).

Your H cares about you...he has not left and filed for divorce and moved away with his kid, abandoning his others to you. He chooses each day to stay in your marriage. He experiences devastating rejection, pain and fear OF you...your judgment, constant failing, feeling taken over, undone and battered. And he chooses to stay. He is equally important in your marriage...he is NOT less than or a monster. He contributes to half the pain, suffering, resentment (and makes his own...tons...you guys have a lot in common)...and he is very afraid.

From both your prior marriages...comes the repeat. And it's super hard...very tough...and really revealing...helpful...formative and a great opportunity.

Unless you both have the belief that you gotta choose the right person carefully or the marriage won't work...

instead of making sure you're being the right person.

I believe you pick your battles and that you know you're battling instead of acting from love and respect. I think you're battling yourself and not seeing your H as he really is...for all actions, not just the hurtful ones.

So I asked for a list...and you gave direct responses...and no list.

My declarations may be totally bogus for ya...I see me in you...this was what my marriage was like...and it escalated, as crushing pain into each other so often does...and you're not me...please take what resonates in you and leave the rest. I believe in you. I know you're capable of standing still...even if at first, like a shark, feels like death.

Do it anyway.

LA

I don't see you apologize for your own boundary violations...and you may well do that...stop immediately when you AO and state what you did, why you did it and why and how you won't do it again.

I do see you looking at him, Gdar. Requiring of him.

Has your MC ever asked you both to consider:

"What you are most craving, you are least giving"?

LA

LA, wow. Just wow. Thank you for taking the time to look inside of this. It is amazing to hear an outside perspective. Thank you.

Let me please clarify, he was not married before me, did not have kids. I came to this marriage with 2, then we had 2. Not sure how much difference that really makes, just wanted to clear that up.

This is true what you said:

Your H cares about you...he has not left and filed for divorce and moved away with his kid, abandoning his others to you. He chooses each day to stay in your marriage. He experiences devastating rejection, pain and fear OF you...your judgment, constant failing, feeling taken over, undone and battered. And he chooses to stay. He is equally important in your marriage...he is NOT less than or a monster. He contributes to half the pain, suffering, resentment (and makes his own...tons...you guys have a lot in common)...and he is very afraid.

He has as much said so when we were in counseling. I need to try harder. I AM sucked into my own vortex of frustration and fear. I want to feel loved and I have lost the way. I see the things I have changed about me to make him happy as sacrifices, or I did at the time of making them. They don't feel like that anymore, which is positive, and I need to remember that. You are right.

Addressing this: Also, could you make a list of ways your H does meet ENs in the marriage (to see if he doesn't meet the right ones and is off target; or more like the article, doesn't meet majority on purpose; or if there's no room left except just one way to meet one EN?).

Do you mean MY ENs? Well, lately I felt that he has not, so I am not sure how to answer that right now. I told him what I needed from him. I got 2 days of it. That is where I get lost. He will shower me meeting my ENs for a couple of days, and I swim in it, happy - I show him how happy it makes me. Then, I get several days of none of them being met. Sink or swim. Sink or swim. I feel like I am treading water, knowing that in a week, he will show up again.

ETA: my list

Affection
SF
Communication
Admiration

in no particular order

I do have a hard time with the AOs. It is the hardest thing for me to overcome, I believe. Last night I felt I did my best at the time to avoid (more) by stepping out of the conversation. When I wanted needed compassion and concern for me, I felt I got he was more concerned with how he looked to the counselor. I know right now, I am probably beating a dead horse. I cannot help how that exchange made me feel and I wish I could see it differently. I am not myself. I truly am not myself.

I am married to a guy who has also perfected the PA technique. He doesn't eat chips in bed, but we have been in similar situations. I don't/can't/won't fume anymore. And when he says "are you trying to get rid of me"...etc., I answer honestly that "yes, I am. I would enjoy having you stay here but not with the chips. If you want to eat the chips, please eat them somewhere else. My feelings won't be hurt."

Gdar...you are so welcome to what I have from my own life...I read your words and they were what was in my head for 15 years of marriage, six years ago. I promise you...you may not act to who you are...you are certainly loved.

You have never been not loved.

Sorry I messed up on the kids...I kinda just divided them up, eh?

See, my DH married me with two kids. How's that for thinking I can wear your skin?

And then we had one together.

I'm not touching the chips issue right now.

I found the other impactful website pdf that another poster on MB shared a couple of years ago...

What we are

I think it's our dance (hey, like "our song", eh?)...

You are a creative person, Gdar...have you ever heard your H or yourself do "repair attempts" during conflict? Where something strikes you as exaggerated and you kinda catch yourself being the exaggerator...and you reply with "You darn well know hyperbole is my middle name!"

And smile...and take a deep breath with a small half-smile as you look at him, when you're really looking inside you?

We are fantastically complex creatures. We keep telling ourselves we are not...that if only he'd do just this one thing, then I'd act differently...

and part of that is true...you know how you get love bank deposits...and they don't stay...you help drain your levels because you expect him to change and stay changed...

look at you...how often you revert...how hard you try...

please stop trying. Lift that load of lies from yourself.

Do differently. Not try. Do.

That's exactly what hits your love bank so seriously...that your H is capable, he does and quickly stops doing...go backs to not doing, like a tease.

Does that resonate in you? That maybe you do that, too?

And I hear you have come to love your changes...your look, your speech, your mannerisms...which is lovely. See, when we aren't listening to ourselves, we believe our lies...I'm only doing this to make him happy...and maybe some of those were permissions you didn't give yourself to just make you happy...

Complex...complicated...layers and layers...not simple creatures...with do have a simple mandate...to own our choices, for we have the greatest respect from our creator...the choice to even love him...no automatics, really...yet he created us with all these automatics we sponge up before we even know we have the choice over what we believe, how we act, and what we act from.

Give yourself a huge mental hug...often...and tell yourself you are human...which is a celebration and caution, isn't it?

About your list for H...can you please go through carefully, without reactivity and think of all ENs...you have one for FS...and when it's being met to your expectation, it doesn't hit your top five...the tricky part of listing our ENs...they change as our circumstances change...and FC may be a big EN for you when it's not being met...or DS...or RC...or Laughter (you can make up your own) or his very presence.

I was a huge discounter...full of yeahbuts. So I'm zoning in on this--NOT to dissuade you from seeing the whole picture, to really get his half (when your focus has made it the whole)...because you see yourself, have lived for, over-doing...and he does. He does.

And he doesn't. No argument for me. My only control is over my own perception, what I chose to filter out, not see or include, appreciate...understand...

and when I focus on lack...zoom in on it, lack expands...becomes my whole experience...

even when I'm living in abundance, too.

LA

Thank you again for that, LA. I really appreciate it. It is like reading a book while looking in the mirror. You are wearing my skin! Thanks for the laugh in the first portion of your post.

My H text me and asked me what time I would be by to p/u my son for his orthodontist appt. I told him what time. He replies that he would like to see me, and that he has a meeting (that starts at exactly the time I will be there to p/u son). I said that I will be there at the same time as the meeting, so ? (I was not picking up on his point). He then says that he would like me to come early so he can see me before his meeting, and I say I will try and thank him for wanting to see me, and that I would like to see him as well.

I text him when I was leaving the house and text him again when I got there. Sat there for 15 minutes before he came out. I was not mad, but a bit miffed that he asked me to come early, then I sat waiting. I did not say anything about it when he got in the car. He thanked me for coming and I told him he was welcome, and then asked if maybe he was too busy to talk since his meeting started in 2 minutes. He was on the phone as he came to the car, he told me he was expecting a call right back, and the meeting was in 2 minutes. I felt like I did what he wanted me to do, but he did not have the time for it. I did not comment. The way I usually approach this (because it has happened on several previous occasions) is me letting him know that I do not appreciate him asking me to come see him, then making me wait for 10-20 minutes. I used to wait for 5, then leave. Then he would call and ask why I did not wait. I thought I was doing the right thing, setting boundaries. I did what he asked, I showed up, I was protecting myself by not waiting.

This time I waited. This time I did not complain.

He is so stressed at work. Without outright asking me to, in his own way I think he was pleading with me to hang in there until the chaos dies down and the school year is over. 3 more weeks.... 3 more weeks...

Gdar, we are either the same person or we are married to the same person, or we are alter-egos in alternative universes...

I know, right? Crazy! It feels a bit better to have someone else feeling what I am feeling and being lost as to how to fix it, even with the steps laid out.

Steps? What steps? You got steps in your universe?

Ya know, stopping DJs, AO, SD, etc... to me those are steps.

Dinner is in the oven, will be ready for when H gets home. If I can keep the 2 yr old from having a melt down (he has been whining non stop for the past 2 hours and no amount of food or drink seems to be working), he can leave the chaos from work behind and come home to some quiet. I may have 4 kids, but I pride myself that most people comment after coming here about how quiet this place is. Most of our friends have half or less the amount of kids we do and their homes are so loud and hectic (not to say it is not here ever) that we come back home to relax.

It is now Wine O'clock.

Those would be the steps going *down*, right? Can someone direct me to the up-stairs? lol

Gdar, ya gotta tell me how you pronounce your name. Is it "guh-Dar' " or "Guh'-dar" or "Jee'-dar" or even "gah-dar" or "gay-dar"?

I call her 'gee-dar'.

Yeah. Lets go with Gee-Dar. LOL

It is a combination of my kids names, sorry to be confusing! 2 years ago I was told no one could look at my name without thinking I have a Gaydar. LOL

Well. H said he would be home around 4:45-5. It is 5:30 and no call. We have been in this sich a lot. I mean, a lot. I assumed he would be late, so dinner will be ready at 6.

*** he called while I was typing this.

He got done with his meeting at 5. Was too busy to call me to let me know he would not be coming home until later than he said.

I handled it well. I did not do my typical, which would be to point out he told me he would be home at X and he is calling me X time after what he said. By the time he gets home, he will be well over an hour later than he said.

I am not dying. I am still alive. LOL

lol to Jayners...and a

:P



Gdar...those are very important steps. You really don't want to do LBs BECAUSE they block you from feeling love, acting from love...they control the power struggle we engage in and we tell ourselves it's a love struggle.

More steps...learning how to stand still.

You said you were at a loss for what to say when he made the session "me me me".

Injecting respect is removing our disrespectful choices and choosing a new goal. Each supports and solidifies the other. When we stop a habit, i.e., DJs, there can be a void. What would you fill it with? Understanding. I think that's what our DJs really are in the first place...our desire to understand, and it's a shortcut for the real thing.

One is fantasy and one is reality.

How do you stand still and not pursue or withdraw? You listen and repeat. That's something so important. You don't assume you heard what was said...especially not in person. We communicate through body language, facial expressions, accompanied by tone and inflection. That's a lot going on and we're "reading" a bunch of non-verbal stuff.

So to break your assumptive patterns...you focus on the words said, and hand them back, asking for confirmation or clarification. Truly striving first to understand, then be understood.

Takes away fodder that builds your AO's...your mental DJs fuel a lot of it. And it slows down your reactive process...your goal is to stand still...repeating what you heard helps you to act, not react.

Gdar, you are on the road you really want...to create and maintain healthy boundaries and healthy enforcements. Because you fear being rode over, hurt, taken advantage of and used. Reasonable. Understandable.

Boundaries help us to know we are safe because of our actions, not others...weans our focus off of them...and puts it onto us, where we really have power.

You cannot get your H to stop fearing. You can stop adding, reinforcing, proving his fear true...and most are DJs in his head, too, towards you. When you stand still you ARE changing the dance. Helps you to become present, standing in the right now, and resentment must stand at bay...no longer is your secret goal to build...and it's not going to like that, btw. Because you had it in this place of importance, and now you'll work against it.

It's a hard habit to break. Standing still breaks it.

One boundary you can focus on is the one you break. When you AO, unleash the "you" statements and feel blame up to your knees...think about what it took for you to give yourself permission to cross that boundary. I hear that you excuse others for their harmful actions when a level of stress, outside demands rise inside your marriage.

With boundaries, there are predetermined, progressive enforcements...not excuses.

And striving to understand does not mean you approve...means you accept what isn't yours and want to know, and be known.

Again, takes your focus off of "lack"...of what you aren't getting...and really cleans your side of the street for YOU...when you take a look at how you permit yourself to react...and H is the one you use vicariously to deliver that permission.

You hate that when he does that.

LA

Is it possible that he got stopped a multitude of times out the door and it took him that long to get down. I can't imagine it was an intentional "I'll keep her waiting...that'll piss her off" attitude and that's why it took him so long. And is it possible that he intended and thought he would have the time to spend with you but it did not happen because of his position at work?

My wife used to come occasionally (she doesn�t anymore as it caused too many fights) to pick me up from work for lunch. It was not uncommon for me to get stopped no less than 15 times (yes I counted) to get asked questions or to clarify something. Even if I told everyone �I can�t talk right now, I�m on my way out� it still added up to enough time that my wife would be sitting out there waiting impatiently.

This sounds a lot like what my wife and I go through during the school year. I�m notoriously home late. I�ve never been an on-time person. I remember that I would try as much as possible to call and say I�d be late but there would be times I couldn�t until I was walking out the door in which I�m already late. Then she�d point that I said I�d be home at X time and off to the races with yelling we�d be. Thankfully I can often just shoot a text now saying I�ll be late. Of course, the problem then lies with do I remember to shoot the text before I look at my watch and say �damn, I�m late� or �damn, I�m going to be late�. She just assumes I�ll be a half hour late home most of the time and I try to remember to shoot a text and it solves all the problems.
Good job on not falling into having an AO.

Yes, this is exactly what happens.

Thank you. Yes, this is also exactly how it goes. He feels he cannot take the time to let me know he will be late, because he is already in the middle of what is making him late, and I feel that since I am holding up dinner for 5 other people, he should let me know, so I can decide to get on with dinner or wait for him. We (I) strive to sit down as a family for dinner, so I find myself a lot of the time pushing dinner later and later and later, until the 2 yr is beside himself because he is tired and it is too close to his bed time. I do expect he will be 30 minutes late most days. Changing my expectations, pushing dinner to later, I still find myself frustrated with "can you please text me if you will be later, so I can feed the family and not wait".

G, I solved the dinner thing by serving it at the same time daily, whether he participated or not. It's on the table at 6:30. The thing about having family dinner, if it is set at a time when everyone can make it if they try, the person who doesn't make it is the one who feels the loss the most. They're the one who eats alone.

There is a big difference between arranging the family around an odd but predictable schedule, and arranging around an erratic one. Go for the predictable when it comes to the kids. They need the structure, whether your H decides to give it or not.

LA, I think I did a better job this morning. In the midst of it, I was annoyed, but once I got through the morning, I am not upset, so that is a plus!

I wanted SF this morning. He had a hard time getting out of bed (I fell asleep last night at 7, HEAVEN) this morning, so I got up and let the puppy out, then crawled back in bed. I... got the ball rolling for SF, but he said he did not have time. Got up, turned on the shower, then asked me to pick out something for him to wear and iron it. We have an inside joke about how when we have morning SF, I get up and iron his clothes while he showers. No SF today, but wanted his clothes taken care of. Also, when our 4 yr old gets in the showers on Tues & Thur, he combs out the awful knots in her hair because she has preschool. Today, he didn't.

We both have to be where we are going by the same time. He takes the 13 yr old with him, I take the 4 and 2 yr old with me. Difference is, 13 yr old gets himself ready, I am getting myself, a 4 and 2 yr old ready before I can go.

So what this morning ended up being was:

H too tired to take out puppy.

I want SF, but it does not happen because he does not have time.

He does not comb DD hair because he does not have time.

Leaves with 13 yr old (who is already ready to go)

I take out puppy, iron his clothes, hop in shower for myself and to comb DD hair, get myself, 4 yr old and 2 yr old showered, fed and dressed. Take out puppy again, then crate her and THEN I go, with a 4 and 2 yr old in tow.

Again, we have the same amount of time to be someplace at the same time. I have crammed in care for 4 people to get out the door. He got to leave with care for 1.

Mornings like this usually get me upset. Today, I let it roll off my back. I am no worse for wear, either. Not bad!

Thank you. I think this is something I am going to have to do.

How would your morning have gone if you had no puppy, no 4 year old, and no 2 year old?

I think you took on an awful lot. No wonder YOUR needs are not getting met. Do you take on sex as a "time saver" replacement for many other of your needs that are not gettng met?

(I used to do that)

What difference would it make? It's not like she can *poof* them gone. Get off your momma-hating trip, Stel. It helps NOBODY.

If her marriage is hurting because she took on too much, then there are solutions.

1. No more kids
2. No more pets
3. Carve out time REALIZING you have too much going on
4. Hang in there until the kids can dress themselves, train them.

It is not too late to get the puppy a good/ different home.

Is is too late for the kids. You asked her to imagine her morning without a 2yo and 4yo.

It's unimaginable, and offensive to a mother.

Stella, I have mad love for you, but I have to agree with CMWI. I LOVE being a mother. LOVE IT. My kids are not going anywhere. LOL

I am not getting rid of a puppy we just got. It is important to ME to have my children be raised with a pet. It teaches patience, love, care and empathy.

Not to mention we had a home invasion (on a Sat night while we were HOME) 2 months ago, and I have a feeling if our German Shepherd would have still been alive, that would not have happened (she died 4 yr ago), so I got another one.

How do you mean, time saver? I like SF. I like it a lot. Always have. A huge component to my marriage. I suppose I am more like a male in this regard. It is very important to me.

i can't even begin to imagine what it would be like for my wife to initiate SF in the morning...and she's a SAHM...what a way to start the day connecting intimately...who can't spare 10 minutes?

Really, I would have even been ok with 5. I guess my H could not spare the minutes.

Maybe he was still satisfied with last night, I do not know. But, I am not going to dwell on it. He said we would have SF when he got home.

Stella, do you need a hug today? I have some I could spare. I just got done snuggling my very snuggly two year old and I am all filled up with love!

oh, rub it in her face, G.

No, really. What I have learned over the past couple of years, is when Stella gives advice that makes me want to pull my hair out, she is generally having a bad day and could use some support.

Oh, and I forgot to mention - my H canceled his trip since I cannot go! I am certain we will have to pay a fee (airline), but it is worth it to me!

We want to go wine tasting this weekend (we live in Wine Country) and we have asked all 4 of our sitters. 3 are busy and the 4th is supposed to let us know today. I really, really, really hope she can. The past 4 or 5 times we have wanted to get a sitter to do something together, they have all been busy!

my wife and i ran into the same issue...babysitters busy or if we find one, she lives a ways off and we have to pick her up and drop her off...

we solved this issue, we swap babysitting duties with other couples we know with kids...that way, my wife and I have no "curfew" and we don't have to worry about picking them up/dropping them off...

works great so far!

Currently looking for another couple to follow through...

Well, our 4th and final sitter is busy this weekend. Booooo.

Trying, people. I AM TRYING. I have to admit, it is getting harder. Evening like this:

Text from H to let me me know he will be home 4:30ish. Calls me at 5:30 to tell me he in on his way, but he has to stop at the grocery store to buy supplies for a school deal he is doing tomorrow (that he has known for 2 weeks is tomorrow, but never shopped for until last minute). My son is in the car with him, and they start bickering while I am on the phone with him. My son asked H to get him some icecream, H asked him if he had any money, son says "no, I have not received my allowance". H says to ME, in front of my son "I am so sick of your kids".

Hmmmmmmmm. Not cool.

He has been in a foul mood since he has been home. Not a smile. I have hugged, kissed, been fliratious, offered to have SF real quick (as he told me I would get it when he got home).

Still no SF, still no smiles. Still in a bad mood.

Growing frustrated, because I feel I have made it as easy as possible for him to come home to dinner, sex and some wine. He is reluctant at best tonight.

Gdar, I'm curious. I know that you have four kids. I have four kids on a regular basis and five every other weekend. How is it you find the time and privacy so easily to have sex anytime you want (if your husband would put out everytime you wanted)?

We have a three year old that whenever we are home if we are out of her eyesight for more than a minute, she's knocking on our door, the bathroom, wherever looking for us and yelling "Mom! Dad!" until we finally show ourselves. My wife can seem to have sex through that; I cannot. And since she�s yelling, it brings the attention of the other kids trying to find us.

I have fostered a sense of privacy in my kids since they were little. I taught them to knock, and have a "Do Not Disturb" sign on our bedroom door. I started this with the older 2 when they were little, starting with the bathroom. It seems obvious to everyone in the house the bathroom is a private place. So is our bedroom. If the door is open, all is clear, if it is shut, we need our alone time. Even our MC encouraged us to keep this up when we did our "homework" of 10 solid minutes of uninterrupted, no-kid time. We put the older 2 in charge of the younger 2, so they knew that when H came home, we had 10 minutes, no questions asked.

Even the barely 2 year old says "Come In"? before he crosses the threshold (learning it from the others).

I make a point, always have, even when I was married to my ex H, that parents need their private time and it is to be respected. A 2 and 3 and 4 yr old can play in their rooms without losing an eye if you have it set up correctly.

Ok, trying to keep it together here folks, and this may be deemed an overshare, but I am at a loss. And a bit freaked out, to be honest.

I did what I needed to do to get my SF (and that is all I am saying about that). Well, in the middle of it, it.. it just wasn't... happening. This has never, ever, ever happened before. Not even close. Ever. I asked if we could try again later, he did not respond and then he "went to sleep".

I am sitting here in total amazement of what just happened (or didn't happen).

I am not sure what I feel right now, but it is not positive.

Aw, I'm so sorry...

*HUGS*

{{{{{ Gdar }}}}}

Try not to take it personally. I know, easier said than done... but maybe he was just really really tired...

My H can literally fall asleep in about 60 seconds. If I'm waiting for him to come to bed to talk to him, and I do something like get up to brush my teeth, when I get back I will have missed the window of opportunity.

And yet somehow if he's on call and someone from work calls, he's awake and can talk them through a procedure, can log into the computer and problem-solve, all sorts of things.

But he could sleep through a baby crying and throwing up, and me changing sheets and getting medicine and all sorts of stuff.

To be fair, he was instantly alert whenever I needed him, 24/7, for months, when I was sick.

(Oops, sorry, not sure how I turned this into talking about me instead of comforting you. *hugs* How you doing now? Are you still online?)

I am here, I am here. And again, I relate to every single word you just typed. Every one. And now, I want to cry. Not because of you, but because you are right. Babies puking, puppy crying, wife needing some love, attention, SF, conversation, whathaveyou and he is too tired. But by God, if work calls, not only is he awake, he is problem-solving, attentive and hard working.

And it hurts.

And I drank wine tonight. Alone.

Hi alter, what's shakin in your parallel universe? If you aren't my twin then no one is! ROFL

and Jayne, you said when you were sick for months on end, he was there for you. That is awesome. I was gone for a year, did I miss something? That is a long illness...

Aw honey... you want I should get a glass of wine and join ya?

You want pictures??? Her name is Frieda (peace and joy in German) and she is AWESOME!

Ooh ooh ooh, yes!!!!!

Please?! I understand if you are too tired, though. I am on the West coast and it is still not considered too late.:)

It was before I came to MB. During the C-section when our kids were born, my bowel was perforated, I got sepsis,yadda yadda, 5 surgeries and numerous "procedures" over the next year, H took care of me while my mom, sis and aunt took care of the babies...

It's written in greater detail somewhere in my thread.

...

Last weekend



The night we brought her home

NM

...

Aw, how adorable!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a real nice puppy!

Aw, I LOVE the second picture!!!! Absolutely priceless!!!!!!!

?

Yeah, she was SO excited! She has been great for all of us!

I'm just one time zone away from you, I can join ya in a glass of wine if you like!

...

Wine, yes please and I have your email added to my gmail, so you can edit.

BRB, getting wine now... *hugs*

I need to grab my charger, my laptop is dying!

Ok girlfriend, I got red wine, chocolate, and honey roasted almonds. Those are all heart-healthy foods, non?

Oh no!!! Go get your charger!

Gdar, is this what you were talking about as "your thread" in the "Markos" thread? ( I am too tired to still be at my office working, much less trying to answer your question.)

You were not "happening", or he was not "happening"?

That had never happened to either me or my wife, until she was on some medicine once, and it took her forever, which really worried her. Didn't bother me. Then, years later, I had some surgery, and a side effect of the anesthesia for months afterwards was that I was like she was, just a long slope upwards. Since it was so different, it was disconcerting at first, but it gave me a different perspective on things. I guess what I am trying to say, is don't worry about it, and don't over analyze some anomaly, or even a change. Relax and figure out how to make it work for you (both).

Yikes Retread, still at your office? You're worse than me!

Um, I was totally happening. He was not.

Never happened to us before. Ever.

Trying not to freak. But I am 35, not 75.

Puppy looks well-bred... is it German lines? American?

I agree with Retread, don't let one incident drive you crazy. All sorts of possible causes.

and, unlike what ChrisNOVA said about men, I am not overweight, unattractive, or have bad breath. I would vain, but not incorrect to say, most men would *die* to have my H's "problem" (a wife who enjoys SF).

German, german, german! Like me!

She is so gorgeous, and she picked me to be her master. She came from a litter of 14! She will be smaller than our last G.S and a shorter coat, which is a plus for me (being the one who cleans up after her)!

14, holy cow! Poor mom!

German, yep, my twin! I could send you links to pics of mine...

Suppose one day you are 75, and it doesn't happen to for you or for him? Very likely. Do you just give up?

That's what a lot of people do when they are 30 or 35 or 40.
If it's "not happening" for them once or twice, they just figure they must be out of business.
Self-fulfilling self-image.
90% of sex is between your ears.

And may I be frank? Thank you.

The reason I have had such an issue with the Sf lately, besides just the fact I like and miss the frequency:

when I was on bed rest with our 4 year old, I heard on a daily basis "your mouth is not broken, right"? (joking, but not) or he wanted other stimulation. Which, I was fine with until it felt like it was not about intimacy at all, but a release. Like I was just a release. Then, when I was pregnant with (our) #2 and put on bed rest, he still wanted/needed/expected regular SF, even if I was not allowed to by Dr's orders. We went less than 2 weeks without it (maybe 6 days?) and he starts an EA and starts to complain to me about how I was not putting out. Mind you, I was on bed rest, our previous child was born a month early (I went into labor right after we SF'd) and spent TWO WEEKS in the NICU and almost DIED, and he is still needing consistent SF. When we go to counseling after I find out about EA, he gets a Get Out of Jail Free Card because I didnt meet his needs. For 6 days. Really? I didnt get a health reprieve?

So, here we are and the rolls are reversed and there is not a health issue. But I am expected (total DJ, I know) to just wait until he isnt too tired? How unfair is that?

Yes, please! Let me email you first.

Thank you, I think I needed that.

That being said, this is the first time I did not know how to feel/react, and neither did he, so he feigned "asleep". Do we talk about it? Can I help him? We have had a life of stress together, and I mean STRESS, and it has never shown up like this in the bedroom.

Oh, he feigned sleep? I thought he'd actually fallen asleep.

What are your theories about why this happened? Stress, tired, already took care of it himself...?

Work stress.

Then our annoying neighbors added fuel to the fire this evening when H and I and the kids were out front with the puppy. "Oh, you are SO accomplished for your age, it is so impressive". They are looking at both of us, but it is clearly directed at my H. I try and lighten it up with "oh, you mean because I have birthed a bunch of kids, I could do it in my sleep". She half-laughs and looks at my H, "my son is older than you and has half the experience you do. So impressive".

Blech.

I guess I am not surprised, considering where we live (a very nice neigborhood), but really, these rich neighbors of ours talking to him that way could very well be adding to his stress. He is pretty young to have accomplished so much professionally.

Total TMI here, but I already took care of myself hours before he came home from work, but simply because he denied me in the morning and I was really wanting it. I was still ready to go, no problem!

I'm glad to see that works for you in terms of privacy. I could never hang a "Do Not Disturb" sign on my door. I have a 14 year old and 7 year old that live with me. If we hang that sign up, they will know what we are doing. I realize that the 14 year old knows that I and her step-mother have sex; however I don't want her knowing. I equate it to I know my parents had/have sex. However, I don't want to know when or even have a hint they are having sex. My parents were always affectionate to each other around me--hugs, kisses, the occassional slap on the [censored] that I always said "oh gross" to. So I knew they were intimate with each other. However, I definately do not want to walk past their door when they have that sign hanging up. It�s like when I�m in a hotel and I see that sign, I automatically tell my wife, �Uh huh�look at what them freaks are doing. � My wife giggles and says something equally tacky.

I�m not sure if I�d bring it up. He�s prob. embarrassed and questioning his manhood. If it happens again, I might bring it up. He could be so wound up because of stress his blood pressure is high and is causing a constriction in his blood vessels which is getting in the way of blood flow to the groin. L-Arginine and pycnogenol is reported as a good combination for this problem. Also, sports nutrition stores carry a ton of vasodilators. Or there�s always cialis (which can always be fun if you have a weekend away from the kids).

Thank you, KT.

In an effort to help you come up with a privacy plan that does not scream to your kids "we are doing the nasty", I say start small. It IS easier to start when they are younger, but that does not mean you are doomed from here until they are out of the house.

Using an excuse of "we need to talk with no interruptions, it is very important we get this time, so this is the new boundary..." would work well with kids of their age. It does NOT have to mean sex.

I think it is crucial for parents to let their kids see that THIER relationship, as parent, comes FIRST. A happy marriage makes a happy family, right? Let your kids see this. Let them see you put focus on YOUR relationship, and they might follow suit someday on their own.

I haven't yet had the courage to try SF with awake kids in the house... well maybe on a Saturday morning when they're still downstairs watching toons...

If kids are asleep then there's no problem, right? Well, assuming they are old enough to sleep through the night. Then I guess eventually they get old enough that you can't be sure they are asleep yet...

We have for a bit now taking one Saturday a month and going out to eat without the kids and getting a hotel room. She likes to drink wine and pina coladas, I like to drink burbon. It's a fun time. The kids always ask why we have to leave for the night. We've always explained that it's because Mom and Dad love each other and they need some time to be alone, that we do this because we love each other, and if we didn't love each other, the family wouldn't stay together.

I'm now having horrific visions of my parents putting that sign on their door. Thanks!

You are WELCOME!

It works. WE (marriage) comes first! We are better parents this way. Why do you think I am trying so hard? lol

Jayne, you can DO IT! YOU CAN!

Um... like hang a tie on the doorknob? lol

DS8b was watching a nature show the other day, and they started getting a bit too explicit on what a male stingray does...

Hahhaa. You just wait - when they get into middle school, it can be mind boggling what they are exposed to - on an academic level!!

In all seriousness. I would like to address what my H said with my son in the car. "I am so sick of your kids".

I understand he is stressed. I get it. I have allowed many things to pass as a result. But he is a professional. Treats little piece of [censored] kids with more care and respect than he is showing mine right now, and that is not like him. He is a good step dad. He has not been careful or thoughtful in the way he has been addressing them TO them, or to ME, lately.

so now you have SF at the drop of a hat...he walks through the door and its SF time...you feel you have to keep him soooo satisfied to keep him from having anymore affairs...that's what I get from this story...

so what happens if you (God forbid) really get sick and you aren't able to or really feel like any type of SF? do you trust your hubby enough to go 6 months without SF and stay faithful to his vows to you?

granted SF is your number 1 need and you need to have your needs met, but honestly...I'm a man with SF as his number 1 need too, but IF I'd had sex last night, this morning and my wife wanted again when I walked into the door...honestly, I'm already satisfied and may really not be in the mood, at that moment, or even later that evening and may even be put off from the advances...I don't need sex 3 times a day to prove to me I'm loved, yet SF IS my number 1. i may feel a little used...but that's just me...I'm happy with sex twice a week...some nights it's nice just to lie together and cuddle, without sex...

Gdar, I'm just getting caught up w/ your thread. I've got lots of thoughts running 'round in my head, so I hope bullet points are ok? I'm not lecturing. It's just quicker than formulating paragraphs.

1. SF...my H is 53 and SF is his #1 (and #2 and #3...) need. He's always ready, willing and able and wishes I would be a more willing partner no doubt. He's always thought that no matter what else, we should be hot for eachother 24/7. He's probably right in that regard, though I find it hard to compartmentalize as he can do and and am my own worst enemy as far as allowing resentment and anger to get in my way. Even with all that, there have been a handful of times throughout our 22 years of marriage, where stuff just didn't work the right way for him. I can count those times on one hand. I think if I'd made a big deal out of it, the temporary physical thing could have easily given in to a mental thing. It it does continue, gently suggest that he go to a doctor because men of any age can develop testosterone issues and they are not necessarily permanent. And they are easily treatable.

Anyway, you don't seem to have the problem that I do, of getting in your own way re: SF, so stay the course!


2. The EA. I am also a BS of an H who had an EA. There was lost more going on in our marriage at the time than lack of SF. The lack of SF was because I had completely mentally and physically stepped out of the marriage. I was sick and tired of the same old crap. And during a trip to his HS reunion, he met up with his old girlfriend and the EA was off and running. It gets more complex than that because, even though he had told me EVERYTHING about all the other women in his life, he never mentioned that he had a romantic relationship with this one. I knew of her existence but not that she was a girlfriend. So added to the EA is dishonesty about sexual past and I haven't forgiven him for that. I have forgiven the EA, but not the dishonesty. (gee, I *just* figured that out...up 'til now I thought I couldn't get past the EA. Now to figure out HOW to tell him that...) It all still rears its ugly head in my bad moments.

3. The comment to your son. IMO, this needs to be addressed. This is unacceptable. He's entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's of course entitled to share them with you. But to say something like that IN FRONT OF your son? I think you need to draw a firm boundary line here.

I'm sorry. Not only did I go way further than simple bullets, I wound up barfing my own BS all over your thread.

((((gdar))))


Dog is adorable BTW, as is your little blonde haired beauty!

He was the one that told me we would have SF when he got home. Since I had asked for it that morning and we did not, that is when he said we would when he got home later that day. Since (besides this past week), we went from darn near daily to once in 2 weeks (which again, even after child birth we did not go that long) recently, I was enjoying getting back into the swing of things. I understand what you are saying, though. I do not feel I am needing to SF all of the time to keep him from straying. The only time I felt like that was right after the EA. I am secure in my sexuality, but I understand from the outside, most people would view my drive as having some sort of issues that I am "using" SF to cure.

You are also right about if I got sick. I have asked myself that question so many times, I have lost count. It is one of the things I wanted to talk about at some point with my IC/MC. That I do not have much faith that my H would be there for me if I really needed him to be. I have never felt he was before, then the EA in the situation I was in, well... it is a sad thing to feel. I wish I felt differently.

My best friend went through breast cancer right when we turned 30. Her partner at the time was horribly unsupportive and downright cruel at times to her. "Quit acting like you are the only person on the planet with cancer" he said to her more than a few times. Sickening. Watching her go through that, then deal with it on her own as a single parent was heartbreaking. We ( best friend and I) have talked about it before, about how if something like that happened to me, that I am not sure my M would survive.

Thank you, OH. Great points, and it talked me down a little (meaning talked me down from picking a battle that would not be healthy).

So... now I am going to try and not DJ in my head how the conversation will go when I bring up how he spoke in front of my son. He has said something along these lines about 4 times in the last week alone, and has been very curt, short and annoyed anytime they speak. This is not like him. It has also been 3 solid weeks of day in/day out 24/7 since my older two have seen their father because of his work travel. I think he was acting out because he (and we) need a break.

So, last night when our SF did not work out, I left the bedroom (this was around 8 pm) and told him he seemed he could use some extra sleep, so he went to sleep. I came out and chatted with Jayne and Retread (thank you both, I needed the support) until damn near midnight.

This morning I was not expecting SF, I did not pursue it, either. He got up a bit earlier than he has been lately and started getting ready to go to work. Made a couple of comments to my son about him needing to be ready to go right that very moment, and when my son told him was eating toast, my H told him to hurry it up. Then H proceeds to spend the next 20 minutes in the kitchen preparing ribs for a BBQ he is doing at work. The BBQ he has known about for 2 weeks, but shopped for (and told me about) last night on his way home, when he was already an hour later than he said he would be to get home. Back tracking a bit, he told me last night when he got home "I need to take your van to work tomorrow" (because the BBQ does not fit in his car). He did not ask, just told me. Did not put the car seats for the kids into his car, so I am here today with no way to go anyplace. I suppose this would be a DJ to say my H assumes I have nothing to do today, or anyplace to go.

I told him last night my van was out of gas. I had just noticed it right before I got back home yesterday from the grocery store. This seems to annoy him. But again, he never drives m van, so me being out of gas is simply something I would just take care of next time I got in it. To me, it is a non issue. You run out of gas, you get more. Thats it. So this morning while he is loading up bags of food and whatnot into my van, he says "you are out of gas, arent you - I dont have TIME for this", then "look, I don't even have enough to get down the hill"!

I did not respond other than "Yes, I told you last night I ran out of gas, I am sorry". Quick peck and off he went.

Standing still, LA. I am standing still. Starting to feel like treading water, but it is the best I can do today.

I think what you have to do is permanently assign him tasks. Ironing is to be done the night before.

I remember when my oldest was a baby, I would nurse her in the morning and I wanted him to get her dressed (so he would spend time with her too). He said "If I have time". I said something like: "You have time to take a shower, you have time to get dressed, you have time to brush your teeth. Make the time for this too." He did.

I find also with my kids if there is someone else (sister) who could possibly do a task (how come she doesn't have to do it!) I get more resistance than if I say "This is your task, this is her task"...or "You help with dinner on even days and help with dishes on odd days"...they accept this.

My kids are much more accepting to that, and it works for them (us).

Now, nothing sticks with my H.

Nothing.

I have tried so many approaches/ideas. BTDT, nothing sticks.

The only problem with this is that unless the "late" person cares that they eat with everyone, then they slowly get estranged from everyone else.
My oldest daughter requires 3 or 4 calls upstairs to get her up on a weekend for breakfast. It would be easier for me to not bother and let her eat cold food. I don't think she would care if she ate alone or ate cold food. But she is 16 and I know it is better for her in the long run if I make her eat with us.

My DH got used to not eating dinner with us at all during the week.

I would POJA a time with your husband for dinner that he thinks he can make 90% of the time and then stick to it. If he misses too many then re-POJA it.

This was a perfect time to make some Admiration Deposits!
"You mean DH? Yes, I am so proud of him!"

So, I am having another one of those over-tired days. I mentioned before, I had blood work up done, and ruled out anything physical that would be contributing to me feeling like this all of the time. I am way behind on how I normally keep the house up. It looks terrible and I do not even know where to start, let alone have a single physical motivation to do so. I am just spent. I even tried to nap when the younger 2 napped, but I do not feel more rested.

My H has been talking about hosting a BBQ here for some of his friends (so the one I cannot stand will be coming over). When he expressed interest in doing that, I asked if he would be willing to do things around the house to prepare for it, and he agreed. He picked up a little bit downstairs the other night, but we have a 3 story house. I did thank him for picking up those few items. Honestly, I am not sure what it is he did, because it still looks like a trainwreck to me with things all over the place. He did take out the trash, though.

Well, here it is Friday. The agreement we made was to have the BBQ on Sunday, and he and I would have a date day to go wine tasting tomorrow (Sat). Well, that fell through because we cannot find a babysitter. Without talking to me about changing the BBQ to tomorrow, when we talked about it last night, he said that the weather will be better tomorrow, so he just assumed I knew we would have it tomorrow.

The house is a mess. A lot needs to be done before it is ready to host people over, especially when his friend and his wife and child will be staying over (again, nothing he has discussed with me previous, this is just what takes place when they come to visit - they live 45 min away), because that adds an extra bedroom and bathroom to the list of things to do.

Since a clean house is not a concern to my H and he says his friends do not care if that house is messy, I am sitting here trying not to stress out about it. But it IS important to me to have a clean house for company. If we have the BBQ tomorrow, that puts me cleaning all day. it is already 1:30, I am exhausted and physically incapable right now of getting much done. My H worked hard all week and will not want to come home to clean on a Fri night (not DJing, just knowing from past history). So, last weekend when we had this discussion about getting the house ready for company and he agreed, here is Friday afternoon and the only thing that has happened was the trash taken out and a ladder moved (that had been downstairs for a month when he put up the screen).

Help me find the motivation. I have no idea why I am so tired like this. This task ahead of me is anything but enthusiastic because A) I am too tired and B) I do not feel up to company and C) I do not even LIKE the company.

I agree I had the opportunity here and I missed it. He was just SO stressed out yesterday and it felt more like adding pressure than being admiring, if that makes any sense?

G, have you told your H that you're not up for hosting his friends? That you don't even like these people?

More times than I can count. Back before we started having issues, this was the only area we struggled. It was the only thing we argued about. He always defends his friend.

I do like the guy's wife. She is nice. Would I choose to hang out with her on my own? No.

ETA: Since he knows I do not like him, he will have a big BBQ, and invite a few other people over to give me a buffer, but most of the time it ends up just being his friend.

Then how about you attempt a POJA that he stays home, with the kids and his friends he knows you don't care for, and you spend the day at the winery?

This IS an option, and I looked into it! All of my friends have prior plans, being it is a 3 day weekend. I do not want to go alone.

Also, I do not want the guy's wife to feel like I do not like her by leaving. Since I cannot stand going to their house (it is kind of gross), my H goes over there and I stay behind. If I leave while she is here, then it will appear I am trying to avoid her, and I do not want her to feel that way.

psst...ask her to go with you. lol.

You could always throw a rock through their window with a note wraped around it saying "do not ever go to (list your address) again." Then sign it anonymus. She'll never know it was you and they'll never come over again!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh! Ahahahaa. I am so tired, I totally missed your point. That is negotiable, sure. I can talk to H about it. Knowing her H, he will not let her go (cuz then he would have to watch his kid), but it is worth a shot.

Hahahaaa!!

I did sent him a scathing email once and told him that my house was not a bachelor pad, not a party place, not a motel - that he is damn near 40 and if he just HAS to come over and visit and stay the night, he was old enough to rent a room at a motel! That worked for about 6 months, then the "brovernights" started back up again. Not near as much as they used to, but they still happen.

and I just realized I have not been kid/duty free in 504 hours.

OMG.

Are these the men who come over, get drunk, and crash at your house overnight, even though you have kids at the house? Do they still do this? Who would be enthusiastic about this around your kids?!

(((Hugs))) Better days are ahead

Yes. Well, not men plural (sometimes there are 2), but yes. Once, the guy I cannot stand actually went into my son's bedroom (he was 10/11 at the time) at FIVE in the morning and told my son to get up and go sleep on the couch so he could have his bed.

Our M was not pretty for a while after that one.

My H feels that since our house is large and his friend is poor, and "at least we aren't out at the bars getting drunk", this behavior is fine. No, I do not agree. No, we have never seem to find an agreement that he has stuck to.

Well, here it is dinner time and no word from H. I am certain his day was busy, and he will tell me as such. He did not have time to contact me at all today. For the first time in 6 years, he did not even call me once.

So, I ate dinner, kids are getting ready to eat theirs.

When he comes home and asks about dinner, I will tell him I was too busy. I do not care that is not how I am supposed to approach it. This was his night to cook, anyway.

What kind of work does he do?

Her husband is a principle of a school. I am sure the teachers are out partying getting ready for the Mem day holiday.

He is a real creep if you ask me. He could care less for his wife. He will come home with some lame story.

He does what he wants when he wants to do it and you GDAR are stuck at home with the kids, etc.

Crazy...I could not take it.

Stella, he works. He does not go off and just do whatever/whenever, he has no time. That is the whole point.

He came home with the same reason as every other time he was late. A parent showed up, unannounced, and demanded a meeting with him and a teacher. It lasted over an hour and a half.

He came home when the kids were eating dinner, looking around. I assumed he was looking for his dinner, so I said " I had no idea what the plan was since we did not talk at all today, so I ate a sandwich. If you are hungry, you can make one". Then I went into the bedroom to lie down. I needed a few moments to relax and not hear excuses as to why he "could not" call me today.

Then he came in and gave me the reasons he "could not" call me today. He was simply too busy. Too much going on. Too many meetings/issues/calls/etc...

Yet he had a BBQ at work with some students and even 2 of his friends from his old school showed up to enjoy some of that BBQ. But did not have the time to call me.

This is why I am depressed. We had JUST had this discussion last week. Last weekend we had a great weekend. We needed to take the time to reconnect and we did. And just like always, I have a weekend husband who is too busy during the week to continue the feelings of love that carry me through to the next time he is available to me.

He could have called you for 30 seconds. I think he lies and do not believe he has conferences with parents.

He does not care for you enough to give you a quick call. My husband would never do that.

Aw, Gee, no wonder you're exhausted! Even with the best of kids, just the thought of always being the one "responsible" if something goes wrong, etc., for over 500 hours... that's 63 consecutive 8-hour shifts (well, not exactly fair because I assume you did grab *some* sleep here and there, but probably not a worry-free sleep-through the night, more like an on-call-but-grab-some-winks sleep) or 21 days straight with no time off or someone relieving you of your duties, or 3 weeks with no weekend.

And to be faced with houseguests-from-hell as well. I *love* the idea of inviting the friend's W to come with you wine-tasting. But we still need to talk about some stuff...

<warning... possible 2x4 ahead...>

Ok girlfriend, you don't particularly like this people and you don't want them coming over, and yet *you* are placing on yourself all sorts of pressure to clean up the house beforehand. I know, you say it's important *to you* to have a clean house when company comes over. But how important? Important enough that you *want* to clean, or do you not want to clean? Because it sounds to me like you are too exhausted to clean. Do you want to clean or not? If you don't want to clean, then don't. You have my permission.

Are you cleaning because you don't want these ppl to think you're a slob? If you've cleaned all the other times, they prolly already think you have high standards. If their house is as messy as you say, they prolly won't condemn you for not cleaning this one time.

And since you don't like them, who cares what they think anyway???



You don't have to be perfect. It's ok. Give yourself a break.

The whole thing wasn't POJA'd, of course. POJA would mean you'd say you aren't enthusiastic about them coming over, but maybe you'd be ok (but even then, that isn't enthusiastic) if H would help clean. So him cleaning should be a condition... but he's reneged. You don't have to pick up the slack!

IMHO you have some choices. You could suck it up and do the cleaning that you feel is needed. I doubt anyone will thank you for that though, and it doesn't sound like you will derive any fulfillment or pleasure or satisfaction from doing it either.

Or you could just not do the cleaning. Maybe your H will notice, maybe not. If he notices and misses the cleaned house, maybe next time he'll help. OTOH there's a big chance that only you will notice.

Or you could do just the most obvious things. The things that would bother you most if left undone. Keep going down your list until your exhaustion is more important than getting the next thing done.

*You* can choose whether or not to clean, and how much. *You* have that power.

Now, for the event itself, you have options. You could invite the other wife to do something with you, and have your break from the kids. Great idea, if she will go along.

Or you could just take your kids somewhere that would be as fun and stress-free as possible for you. You can invite the other wife to come with her kid, since you think her H may not "let" her leave her kid with him. By inviting her, she will know you aren't avoiding her, whether or not she chooses to come.

Personally, here's what I would do:
I would prolly make sure all the dirty clothes are in closets behind closed doors, all the dirty dishes are at least in the kitchen and not scattered throughout the house, and all the toilets are flushed with toilet paper available. I'd prolly pick up the dog poopy from the yard too.

Then I'd pack an overnight suitcase with clothes and swimsuits for me and the kids, and check into a hotel with a swimming pool (some have really great water parks!). I'd take the kids, and watch them swim while relaxing poolside. Depending on how much the older kids could be trusted to watch the littler ones, I might even sip marguaritas and read a trashy romance novel. I'd take my laptop of course, in order to stay in touch will all my MB friends!

When the kids have turned into total prunes, we'd all go back to our room and watch tv in bed until they fall asleep.

If you don't do that, I might!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stella, I am going to ask you to can it.

My son was sitting in the front office for that hour and a half waiting for him to take him home. He was the one who text me to tell me that he was stuck "waiting".

He is a principal. He has meetings with parents.

But he should have boundaries!!!! Limits with the parents on time and scheduled meetings.

Jayne, you read me so well. Thank you.

Older 2 are off with their dad for the first time in 3 weeks. My H dropped them off for me - score!

I picked up a few things and put my pretty blanket over the couch in a new way - it looks nice! LOL

Dishes done

Laundry done (but needs to be folded and put away)

Bedroom (where guests will stay) picked up. My son picked it up before he left and did a nice job.

I am thinking of checking into a hotel in town that has a big tub, taking a giant soak (our tub in our master has yet to be installed, issue with our builder - so 3 years without my big tub!) and go to sleep. That sounds so awesome.

H also said he would take the kids to his friends house and stay, so I could sleep in tomorrow morning. But I was hoping it would be as an INSTEAD of them coming here, but he meant in ADDITION to. Not sure how I feel about that. Their house is infested with fleas. Blech.

I agree, Stella. I agree. We have had this convo many times. He flat out told me that when parents call/show up, he CANNOT and WILL NOT call me.

It would show more respect and authority IN FRONT OF THE PARENTS if he said politely, "It is late, my wife has made dinner, excuse me please while I let her know I am going to be late".

This is why I think he is using this as an excuse to be rude with you. He does not know how to love you...or does not know proper etiquette, or something. Or does not want to have the closeness that is needed with a wife.

Why would a man treat you this way!!??

Not saying that he couldn't shoot off a quick 'thinking of you' text or a quick phone call. But you obviously have no idea what it's like to be a teacher or principal. I can't tell you the number of times walking out the door, I'm grabbed by a parent demanding/needing to have a conference about their child. Last week I was having a short meeting with the principal. What should have been a 5 minute quick meeting turned into a 30 minute sitting there staring at her while she answered phone calls and had to talk to parents walking through the door needing her attention. This is in aaddition to the other 50 something teachers all trying to get her attention for a few minutes because of some issue going on.

This was 30 mintues. It's like this for her (and all principals) everyday, all day.

It doesn't always work this way when you're in education. And you either deal with it or quit. I had a total of 317 students last year spread throughout my classes. Although I do not have all the parents wanting to speak with me, I would get no less than two dozen emails daily from parents with questions and concerns (and most emails have to be methodically answered and that takes up time) and then some would just stop and see me without giving me a heads up. My principal has 1150 students this last year and nearly every parent wanting to speak to her on a regular basis because of this teacher or that grade or this committee or that function or etc etc etc.

The parents will literally grab you as you're trying to leave to get your attention. And brushing them off with "I'm sorry. I'm late getting home" doesn't cut it.

Does your husband get a summer off? My principals and their secretaries get 2 weeks off. I feel sorry for them. I would never want to be a principal.

How late does you H ususally get home? (sorry haven't read the entire thread)

And does he for the most part have the weekends off?

I don't know about sending the kids to a home with flea's....that would be a issue for me LOL....a big one...are you sure they actaully have fleas? you don't want your kids bringing that into your home...what a nightmare that would be to have to clean up the flea infestation!

Gdar, I'm glad to hear you're considering this. I don't think I posted about this at the time, but late last year, my H wanted a druggie friend and his wife to stay overnight, and I tried to POJA it, "well how about we just meet them for dinner when they come to town?" But he wasn't having it. So I was O&H and told him that if these people were here to stay overnight against my wishes, that I was going to take our girls and stay with a friend. I was a little embarassed, because DD14 already had planned a friend sleeping over, so I would've had to tell the friend's parents that she can still sleepover, but it would be at a friend's house.

He said this would've embarassed him, so he decided to tell the guy that he couldn't stay that weekend. He was very hostile to me for a while after this, which really gave me a lot of clarity, helped me understand why I had been dishonest for so many years by going along with things I knew were killing my love for my H, when that went against my values. I wanted to be a Buyer, to make decisions that would strengthen our marriage, not attack it. Not a Renter, someone who gives in, again and again, thinking, okay, just this once is okay, I'll put the effort into coming up with a better decision "next time." That weekend was a real turning point for me, feeling my fear, and standing up for my marriage, anyway. It was a real turning point for my H, too, taking the action that was better for his kids instead of better for outside appearances.

I read stuff like this and I think about all the different battles we face in our lives. I wish my H had a steady job, like Gdar's. Even if it meant the extra hours. Life is so much more peaceful and pleasant in the house, when he is OUT of the house for a period of time during the day, doing something productive. And I feel protected and valued, knowing that he's helping to earn income to care for the family. I could care less if he swept floors at Wal-Mart to do this, but of course, he won't consider that! (he's painting this week and it's been just wonderful!).

But...the other side of the coin is that NED and Gdar are dealing with something that my husband would never-ever do and I'm not sure I could abide that either. Friends that I can't stand, spending the night? Ugh. I consider myself blessed that H has slowly dumped all the friends of his who were no friends of our marriage or who have refused to try to get along with me/didn't like me, over the years.

Now, before you start thinking that I'm impossible to like, or get along with, this is a grand total of TWO friends over 23 years. LOL

And then I think about how poor I am about setting boundaries over some of his LB behavior, yet I wouldn't think twice about removing myself and the kids, if he were to do something like you two wrote about.

A comment about the principal's job: We have friends here locally...he is a HS principal. She has never officially complained to me about the hours, but she has acknowledged that the parents are difficult and demanding, the politics of having to work with the boosters/PTA, the superintendent, the school committee, the town officials, etc....PLUS actually BE a school principal who is available to both staff and students...is a totally consuming and very demanding job. And he is passionate about his job, like so many educators are.

All that said, they somehow make it work. From what I've been able to glean, she is very firm about her expectations and boundaries (that I believe they have POJA'd, though they are not MBers; they just have a good marriage!) and if he were to cross those, she would let him know in no uncertain terms!

She's mentioned several times getting a text or a 15 second phone call from her husband: Sorry, honey...I was on my way out, and two upset parents just walked into my office. I will be home as soon as I can. And he does tell the parents that he will be with them in ONE MINUTE; he just has to tell his wife that he'll be delayed.

This does two things: 1) It shows his wife he values her, loves her and thought of her FIRST. and 2) it sends the parents a subtle message that, while he will gladly take the time to address their concerns, he is putting in his own personal time that would otherwise go to his family. In that case, those meetings tend to be brief and to the point. And if it can't be resolved quickly, they set a future date (preferably during regular working hours) for a longer meeting.

Or that you would be enthusiastic about doing it if he clean X, Y and Z rooms (meaning all toys/clutter put a way and vacuumed) and he planned a menu, made a shopping list, and bought the food and grilled the meat. You would clean A, B and C rooms, and prepare all the side dishes. And after you would both clean up.

THis is what POJA is all about...what would make you enthusiastic about doing this?

My DH had Sunday season tickets for the Mets baseball games. I would get stressed about going because I ended up doing all the "prep" work (gathering "Mets" stuff, making lunch, etc.) I told him I would be more keen on going if he did the prep stuff. Then all I had to do was hop in the car in the morning and then I really was more enthused about going. I didn't resent it.

Somewhere there is a balance. My DH has a steady job. However, we never see him during the week and only everyother weekend because of work. You can't rebuild/maintain a marriage with those hours.


Gdar...as annoying as it is right now, you have to make it so home is a pleasant place to come home to. If he thinks it will be wife sniping at him, he isn't going to leave early. That is not to say you should roll over. So if it is his turn to make dinner and is late with no call, you just say "I didn't know what to do about dinner. It was your turn to cook but I thought you were going to be home since you didn't let us know otherwise. Eventually I made sandwich. Want me to get the sandwich fixings out for you?"
Then he sees consequences without disrespectful judgments.

GDAR there is a solution for this and I cannot find it right now, Hang in there.

OH, he does not get home until 7:30 and many times later. If it is after hours, he really should call you...even if he is going to stay really late to see these parents.... (and the parent is expecting too much). A simple phone call at least would be polite and show he valued you.

I hope you can get to the wineries this weekend. I am going out that way to visit a girlfriend but she does not drink wine so we have to find other things to do. Maybe we will go shopping.

Ain't it the truth! lol The things I'm struggling with, some of you would never tolerate: I get teary-eyed over the prospect of him giving me 5 minutes of UA Conversation a night. One or the other of us has a business trip a few times a year. We used to live in separate countries even.

And yet I pretty much know where he is at all times (well, sometimes I may not remember that he has a particular meeting somewhere, but it's usually somewhere in my email). I can think of only one time when he stopped off at a friend's house for a drink after work without telling me, so he was maybe half an hour later than I expected. Sometimes he gets caught at work and is late, but I know when to expect it. Vice versa, yesterday I was at my work with my kids (who are out of school and the summer program hasn't started yet) and I had a ton of people who needed to talk to me and we had two fire alarms and I got caught outside with no cell phone and ppl talking to me, so we were about half an hour late getting home. I called H on the cell as we were leaving, he'd been wondering where we were but there weren't any hurt feelings.

(Yesterday was a scorcher, and we drove through DQ and got Blizzards for everyone, including one for H. So we generally can trust that we will call each other as soon as we can, and we also have a habit of checking with the other person if they want us to pick up anything.)

I *LOVE* this:


If I were the parent in this situation, I would so totally be more appreciative of the Principal's time and would totally try to wrap up the meeting as quickly as possible.

Another thing I notice: You are not supposed to do anything that you will resent. My H is really good about saying no to requests to do something he doesn't want to do. I think I'm pretty good about only doing for him things I want to do, but I sometimes try to get him to do things even if he doesn't want to. I seldom succeed. I now know those are SDs. Like Ned said, a Buyer doesn't do things they will resent doing. So I must give kudos to H when he doesn't do that. <Note to Self!>

So for example, this:

Exactly! If I wasn't a Mets fan, I would never have started doing the prep work. If H wanted to take Mets stuff then he could get it.

It seems to be hard sometimes to remember to not do ANYTHING that you will resent doing. Of course there are things that simply need to be done, dirty jobs that someone has to do. You always have a choice though, in everything but death and taxes. You don't HAVE to do it. If you don't like the consequences of NOT doing it more than you don't like doing it, then you will likely choose to do it. Your choice.

The secret may lie in making this a *conscious* choice. So that if you choose to do it, you are clear with *why* you are choosing that way. And you can change your choice if you want.

Can't agree here, Stella. I would not insist on seeing school administrators after hours unless there were some kind of emergency, but in the event of an emergency? You betcha! And they'd better be reachable and be there for me. My taxes pay their salaries.

Unfortunately, there are parents who will insist on seeing the school administrators after hours about non-emergencies. Doesn't mean they should be blown off...just gently persuaded to revisit the problem during regular working hours. And there are parents who can't make phone calls from work, or don't have the flexibity to reach school officials during working hours. Does the principal blow them off too? Of course not! He/she is a public employee, working on a salary funded by tax dollars. (unless it's a private school, and then the tuition funds the salary)

So, the right answer is that Gdar's husband can *still* put her first, just by asking the parents to wait ONE minute while he calls or texts his wife. My friends deal with this all the time. The wife knows if she gets one of "those" calls/texts, that she'll get a lengthier explanation later; that the purpose of the quick call or text is just to let her know he'll be late. Gdar's husband can, and should, certainly be able to do that!

As someone who has seen this from both sides, ITA. As a teacher, it is my job to talk to students (and parents of students, depending on the age and needs of the student). The same would go for administrators too. If a parent is coming in to talk to the principal, then it should be taken seriously.

This isn't a sales person who is possibly losing a sale, or a store owner who is inconveniencing a customer. If the customer really wants the item or service, they will return during business hours. That is commonly expected. This is an employee paid by tax dollars or tuition.

As a parent, I would want to know that the school that I entrust my child to, day after day, all day long, takes the needs of my child seriously. I would not like to be "blown off" by the principal if I had taken the time to come talk to him/her. As a working parent, I know it would have been difficult for me to get away from *my* job to come talk to him.

As a parent, though, if the principal excused himself to make a 30 second phone call to his wife, I would definitely try to not take any more of his time than necessary if it were after business hours. I love that idea.

And if the parent did happen to be an "irate parent", that subtle reminder that the principal is a human too with a family and a life outside his job, might even help to calm the waters.

In this day of email, there is simply no reason--for me--to drive to the school and demand an audience with the principal, during school or after hours. Plus, there's the paper trail of email correspondence.

I love paper trails when dealing with officials.

Anything said in person can be denied. Anything said in email can be passed on to the Super.

You know how I know when someone is trying to cover their a**? When I send them an email, and they respond by phone.

I know none of this actually helps G. Perhaps a better question would be why is the school principal getting wasted with losers on the weekend? It's one of those jobs where your character really does count...maybe it's time for some incriminating photos?

One more thing about principals. I believe Gdar mentioned her H was a HS principal. (as is my friend's husband). At that level, it's way more likely that you are going to find yourself dealing with parents (and stickier situations) after hours. At the elementary level, it's not likely that the 4th grader was caught drunker than a skunk on school property, or stealing, or driving under the influence, or cheating, plagerizing (all stuff of which can impact the school day at some point and hence, need to involve administration).

By the time the parents of a high schooler get to the level of needing to deal with the principal, they have most likely already spoken with the teacher(s), content or department heads, guidance and maybe even a few more levels, depending upon the size of the school. By that point, they just want ACTION, and email be da*ned.

To kind of piggy back on what OurHouse said, a lot of parents seem that face-to-face conference/conversation rather than through email. I tend to get more emails, but most of the questions are dealing with was I noticed you marked my son/daughter absent...were they really not there. Or I get the 'can you tell me why my son/daughter received a negative grade for such and such assignment(s)." But I still get plenty of parents that want that face-to-face conversation. And it seems more so when it comes to principals.

For me, when I want clarification from one of my kiddos' teachers, I usually email that I'd like a phone call at their convenience.

Tell your husband to quit being a principal and become a college professor that teaches administration classes for those wanting to become principals.

OH SAID:

So, the right answer is that Gdar's husband can *still* put her first, just by asking the parents to wait ONE minute while he calls or texts his wife. My friends deal with this all the time. The wife knows if she gets one of "those" calls/texts, that she'll get a lengthier explanation later; that the purpose of the quick call or text is just to let her know he'll be late. Gdar's husband can, and should, certainly be able to do that!
_________________________

This is exactly what I was saying, OH. If he is unable or cannot set limits on the parents seeing him after hours, even as late as 7PM, then the least he can do is call and let her know...politely. That would be a good START to helping thier marriage.

After all, she is as important as the parents right? (I think she is much more important)

GDAR, I am sorry I was so ranting on and on the other day. Today I had a nice day with an old high school girlfriend, we blew off steam and went shopping at the factory stores, out to eat twice, to a tea ceremony, drove around and went to see and pet all the cats at the Cat adoption team (500 cats, no kill shelter), went to another shopping place, went to Frye where I bought a new laptop for my birthday gift (from my husband he gave me a gift cert) and bought my friend a little netbook computer too.

We had a blast and I realized I had not had that much fun in so long! All I do is work! I was almost having a breakdown and you recognized it I am sorry. I needed a "day off" to shop and have fun.

I wish my friend did not live 4 hours away, I could see her more often. I have to make more friends that will do fun things with me. I feel much better now and realize how passionate and intense my personality is. Sorry I am so adament about stuff. My old friend told me that is just my personality, that I had a lot of energy and was passionate about things.

Anyway, sorry and I hope you have a lot of fun this weekend too!.

Stella, thank you very much for your apology. I always appreciate your input, take you at face value and feel that I do an ok job of letting you know if I feel my toes were stepped on... a little too hard. I am glad you had a good time with your friend! I understand your feeling like you do not get out with them enough!

I want to thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful responses this weekend. I really appreciate the help! I LOVE this place sometimes!

Weekend was great. The older 2 kids went with their dad for the first time in 3 weeks and the younger 2 were really whiny and demanding and quite a challenge, but H and I were so well connected that we had a fabulous time anyway.

H went shopping at my favorite market for weekend groceries and came home with a bunch of their flowers - I LOVE getting their flowers, they are always gorgeous and inexpensive. My house smells divine! He loaded up on my favorite foodie items and made a point to do everything just the way I like it. We had a date night after the kids went to bed downstairs in the media room and did some... connecting.

Saturday he DID NOT have his friends over, wahoo! He never actually invited them over officially, so that was a total communication break down. Since he and I never set plans in concrete, he never set them with his friend (which I am happy about because this is how it happens a lot of the time).

My ex H called us Sat morning and asked if he could babysit the younger 2 for us so he and I could get some alone time. We took him up on it! We went to our favorite brewery in town because the sun showed its face briefly, and they have the best outdoor seating in town. Then we checked out a new bistro we had been wanting to try. We laughed and smiled and it felt like old times. Since we did not have much time, we did not hit the wineries, but we had as much or more fun doing what we did. We went back to grab the two kiddos and then took them home for bed and had another movie night downstairs. And some more... connecting.

Sunday he got up early and put on a big Brisket to Q up on the grill. These take about 8 hours, so we spent the day (enthusiastically) re-arranging furniture, sprucing up the living room and making the house look nice. Together! He just went for it, and any polite request I had, he did with a smile and a kiss. Really. This is the H I love and adore! I KNOW HE IS IN THERE!

For the first time ever, he addressed me on my FB page with a glowing "having a great time, you are a great wife" sentiment.

My mom called this morning and asked if she could come up and sit for us so we could have some more time alone, and although H had a TON of work to do, he said he would love to have more time with me, so he worked really hard in the morning (irate parent sent him 2 scathing emails that she wanted dealt with "this very instant" that he ignored and said he would take care of later. "After all, it IS my day off"! We went to Lowe's and bought a ton of red, white and blue flowers to decorate our front yard/porch/potting containers in celebration of today's holiday (and will continue to bloom past our Independence Day, which we have a giant party for) and then hit a restaurant for some snacks. He is working right now, and has been since after we planted the flowers (and a new Laceleaf Japanese Maple) and I am A-Ok. He put in some great marriage time and my LB is overflowing! No LBs, no DJs.

Now, he is upset because he realized that he has to work an after school event or meeting every single day this week, but I can see that is not thrilled, would rather be home with his family and we had so much fun this weekend that I have yet to do my meal plan for the week. So.... I will need YOU, my MB friends, to help get me through it. Lately, with my possible depression, a great weekend can turn into a week from hell by day 3. I do NOT want to go to that dark place this time. I can do it. We can do it!!!

YAY!

Sometimes knowing that they are upset is enough to get you through!
Also, are there some things that he could do when he is at home even if it is late?
Can he make a meal plan?
My DH used to do the grocery shopping at 10pm because it didn't matter what time of day it was done. Also, can he take 5 minutes between meetings to call you? Tell him that that will really help you maintain that feeling you had on the weekend.

Good suggestions, thank you. What is going to also help me is keeping busy and staying off of here. :)~ My 2 yr old and I spent the morning out and about (though he was super cranky about it), I just made lunch, getting ready to bill pay for the month and make the meal plan. Tomorrow a good friend of mine is coming over with her 2 kids and on Thursday I am visiting with a friend who jusst had a baby and then hitting Costco. I am thankful it is a short week, because H will be working until 9ish every night this week.

I have yet to talk to him today, and I am fine.

This Pacific NW weather is killing me! Wettest May since 1940. Projected 12 more soggy days. In freaking June. Gahhhhhhhhhh - I just want to get outside! My kids and I are going crazy being cooped up! Not to mention, more puppy accidents because she hates the wet grass.

Things going ok. H was expected to work til after 9 last night, but managed to wrap it up early, usher the parents out and get home before 9. He still had scheduling to do once he got home, but it was nice to have him near me. He is really, really, REALLY stressed right now. Our state just had 6 million MORE in budget cuts come down the pipeline 5 days ago. After he had already completely changed the curriculum for this next school year. Now 2 more teachers have to go and back to the drawing board for scheduling. I think it would be easier on him if he only had to schedule the typical classes like the three R's, but he has 10x more offerings than any other school. It is just insane. The stress spilled over to our interaction this morning.

On M, W & Fri, I do not *have* to get up early like he does, as he gets up and in the shower before the kids wake up. Each morning, since he HAS to be up, he takes the puppy out to pee. This morning he slept in about 30 minutes later than usual (at least that is what he said, I was not sure what time it was). He gets up and goes straight into the shower, ignoring the whining puppy for her morning pee. Once she sees him in the shower, she starts going nuts in her crate. I get up, walk to the shower and ask "do you need me to take the puppy outside to pee". He replies "I TOLD you I was running late. You were too comfortable to snuggle up on for me to get out of bed on time". Ok, he did not ask me to take her out, he did not do anything but ignore her and get in the shower. He did not communicate anything to me about it. His way of "telling me" I needed to take her out was by announcing he was running late and that it was MY doing. So I said "what I hear you saying is that you need me to take out the puppy, but you did not actually SAY that. Is that correct"? Reply "I TOLD you I was running late and I was so cozy in bed". Ok, same answer. My reply "so you want me to get up and not be cozy to take the dog out in the rain, when really, I do not NEED to be up right now". This interaction was half joking between us, but this "communication" happens a lot around here.

So I stood out in the rain with the puppy to do her business when really, I just wanted to be in bed. Slightly peeved, but not a battle I am going to pick.

Here is where I take issue. He constantly refers to "natural consequences" to my kids. I used just such a reference with my 12 yr old this morning. She wanted H to take her to school because it was raining outside. He could not because he was running late. She has an umbrella. One that she took to school once and never brought back. Natural consequence of not bringing back the umbrella = standing out for the bus in the rain.

When it comes to choices/decisions HE makes, there is no such thing as natural consequences. Him getting up late (which he put on me because I am too cozy) = natural consequence for ME, not him. I took out the puppy in the rain because he did not get up. Also, many mornings he does not get up on time, he will wake me up and ask me to iron his clothes (forget suggesting he set out clothes the night before - he does that every once in a while, but the habit never sticks). When I tell him I prefer to stay in bed (my mornings are dealing with myself and 4 kids and a puppy, not just myself), he will guilt trip me until I do it for him.

Yes, I suppose I could just always do it for him. I don't want to. I take care of a LOT as it is and I do not feel it is asking too much that he dress himself.

I dunno. I know he is stressed. Give an inch, take a mile - that is how I would describe it when I do things for him.

I think I need some sunshine!!!

and here we have another evening close to dinner time and I have not heard from H (though he did call at 10 a.m. about something unrelated). Yesterday evening he went to the grocery store to buy items for a specific meal he said he wanted to try tonight. And I have no idea when he is coming home. Again.

I really feel sorry for the poor puppy. He was really hurting and trying not to pee in his cage. Your husband's coldness with the puppy makes me question his heart as a human being.

He figures that you care more so you will not be able to resist a crying puppy. I am upset at your selfish and cold husband. How would he like it if he had to "hold it" for a day or two? It is torture.

What is his thing? Does he feel more valuable than you are as a person?.

His priority list appears to be:

1. Himself
2. His work
3. His fun and drinking with friends
4. His kids
5. The dog
6. You
7. Your other kids

Do you feel worthy enough for him? After all he is a principle and all.....how is your self esteem?

When you had the kids and the pup you did not consider his selfishness..did you?

Maybe you could try something: 'DH, I wanted to talk to you about what happened with the dog this morning. I know it was so nice snuggling in bed this morning. But then you kind of blamed me for you getting up late...and then I think you were resentful that I didn't have to get up and then left the taking out the dog for me. Now I know you are busy these days and can help out with your chores, but I would like you to ask me. Like "Honey, I snuggled too long in your deliciousness and now I am running late. Do you think you could walk the dog this morning?"

Also he may be jealous that you get to "sleep in", but are there things you do that he forgets about? Like do you stay up a little later getting stuff ready for the next day?

ITA. Reading about your H doing that and then the way he justified the behavior of ignoring the dog when you questioned him really really doesn't sit well with me, not at all.

I am trying to think of how to best handle a manipulative selfish cold hearted husband but I cannot come up with anything now...maybe later.

Do you guys have any type of formal agreement in regards to the dog? Or was it just a joint family venture to go get a puppy? I ask because I had talked in a previous thread about how I was totally against getting a dog. The wife ends up getting me to go to the pound and I'm guilt tripped into getting the dog. I get the dog under the precept that I do not have to walk, bathe, feed, water, pet, clean up after, take care of in any way shape or form the dog. I also said when I have to start doing these things, I will be more than happy to bring the dog back where we got it.

So occassionally (it's getting more frequently) I'm having to walk the dog. My wife will remind me how little I have to do it though. And then I have to remind her htat the agreement was I wouldn't have to do it at all. Now if I had agreed that I was enthusiastic to have any animal and I wanted one as equally then I would be equally responsible.

Sometimes Stella, I agree with your assessment above, minus the part of him being cold. He is far from cold. Yes, I have self esteem issues (I did not have them prior to meeting him) and no, I did not consider his selfishness. You paint a much harsher image than it need be, however.

We go to bed at the same time each evening, and I do not sleep in - I just stay under the covers while he showers, but by the time he is out, I have 1 or 2 or 3 kids in my room asking me for something, or wanting to climb in and snuggle.

Thanks for the suggestion, I did pose it this way later on and it actually lightened my mood.

KT, I got him this puppy as his 35th birthday gift. She is a purebred German Shepherd, which he had when we met and she later passed away a year after we got married. She was incredibly important to him and a terrific caregiver. She was such an amazing, well-cared for dog and he spoiled her. She adored my kids and they adored her. My son, who was 7 at the time, was really afraid of dogs to the point he would have a panic attack anytime one came near him. His dog cured him of his fear and ever since her passing, my kids have been BEGGING for another dog - and not just any dog, another GS. I waited until I felt my youngest would not be knocked over by the sheer size of a large dog, and the affectionate and restrained way he is with our cat, I knew we were all ready to take the plunge, as a family, to get another dog. She is incredibly loved and spoiled and contrary to this ONE incident of H ignoring her in her crate, he is great with her. We all are. She is well loved.

As soon as school is out, my H and the older 2 kids are doing obedience training with her (she has chosen me as her master and listens to my commands, but no one elses yet).

Oh boy. Just got a call from my H. I cannot go into detail, but the state was just dealt yet ANOTHER huge blow for school funding. He has already had to cut way more teachers than should be allowed... all of that hard work completely rehauling the entire school's curriculum and now back to the drawing board. Oh. My. Gaaaaaaah! He is already out of time to do the work he has NOW, let alone MORE.

Oy.

Sorry girl. Our principal is in the midist of doing the same thing. I work at a gifted and talented school that is ranked in the top 15 of the nation. She just got the message in the last week of school that the school had to cut back. So as some of the teachers were coming in to turn in their paperwork for summer leave, they were being let go.

What sucks is we have a ton of specialty program (think almost like the show FAME) and it's not good to let go of teachers in a school ranked like this (or anywhere).

Thanks for chiming in, KT. The emotion that came over me was pretty intense when he told me today. I instantly felt this overwhelming need to cry - but not because of MY feelings about it, but because of how HE is going to feel about this. He is so very, very good at what he does, takes every ounce of it to heart. He is no robot. He was destined to take this path - it is in his make-up.

Can I just say right now, how many, MANY parents I want to punch in the throat for their narrow-minded, petty, annoying a$$ bullsh*t they keep bugging him about? Today I just got so mad when he was telling about this one awful parent, knit-picking and being horridly petty that I said "give me her number, I will give her a call and tell her she is freaking LUCKY as all hell to have her kid attend this school and she should be THANKFUL her kid is getting the amazing education she is getting in the midst of these horrible budget cuts. Maybe that will put it in perspective for her"!!! He just smiled.

But, you see, a lot of people are selfish. They think their issues are significant. They do not realize that there are hundreds to thousands of parents that all want to talk to the principal. You have tons of people all fighting for their time. It sucks about your husband having to cut teachers. No principal wants to do this and no teacher wants to hear this. While it's still not cool that he's not keeping in touch with you during the game, he'll need reassurance that he's a good person. He's forced to do a terrible thing and I'm sure it's breaking his heart.

Blech. This morning just suuuuucks.

He is beside himself about what is going to take place today. He is sad, withdrawn and downright grouchy. I made sure he had his coffee (which he barked at me because I put sugar in it - I always put sugar in it) and his lunch as he headed out the door. I gave him a hug, put his hands in my face and told him to hang in there today and asked if was ok. He is not ok and its breaking my heart.

In a separate situation, last night when he came back from the night event (which he took 3 of the 4 kids to, so I was SUPER appreciative about that). He casually mentioned that his best friend (the one I cannot stand) asked him to go to their old college town, about 4-5 hours away for an overnight to "hang out old school and get drunk" (insert giant eye roll - the dude is 40). He told me he had no interest in going. This is going to sound like a DJ, but this means he is bring it up because he is feeling me out to see what I will say. If I act favorably, he will pursue it and if I balk, he won't push it. This is how his IBs have always been since the inception of our M.

I did not respond.

So this morning, knowing in my mind how THEIR conversation went, I checked his phone for their text exchange. Sure as [censored], not only did his loser friend ask him to go for the overnight, my H suggested that because it was such a long drive, that he would be more interested in TWO nights. His friend told him to LIE TO ME and tell me they were going camping (which he has asked me if they could go camping several times over the years, which leads me to believe they never actually did). My H's response was "lying to my wife has worked so well in the past, lol".

AYFKM?

Yeah. I am pretty hurt right now. But given that what he is about to face today is as intense as this profession gets, I ain't bringing it up. Not sure if I ever will. I am so sick of the games.

oh, and last night I found out that my 13 yr son had been viewing porn on his iTouch. The one that his dad bought him and I promptly took away when I found out he was viewing porn. I password protected it and turned OFF the internet so he could not access it. His father insisted that he needed the passcode in case he needed to change a setting, so I gave it to him. He also insisted that I give him back the iTouch on HIS time with the kids, as he was the one who purchased it.

Well, it appears my X used the passcode to allow our son to have full access on the damn thing again.

This morning when he asked if he could have his iTouch back (I grabbed it from his room last night to spot check to make sure he did not download any apps). I told him no, and he asked why. I told him he very well knew why he could not have it back and I gave him my "I know, and you know I know" look. He insisted he had no idea what I was talking about. Just like LAST TIME.

I have yet to decide how I am going to approach him when he gets home from school today, but I do know the iTouch is now MINE and although my ex H purchased it, he is NOT getting it back. If he gets upset about it, he can dock my child support check for the cost, I really do not care.

Gdar,

You asked me to chime in on this, but I am not sure what to say. When I read it, I actually gasped. This is clear and blatant lying.

That friend of your husband's is no friend to your marriage, that's for sure.

I'm going to read a bit more about your story and see if there's anything I can come up with to be helpful.

Thanks, Chris. I really LOATHE his best friend. I have never once asked him NOT to be friends with him (his mom has begged me for years to get the guy out of my H's life), because it just is not something I want him to resent me for - but NO, he is no friend to my marriage.

His lying is something he learned from a young age and I believe enabled by his mother. His mother stashed money away for years that his father knows nothing about. He lies to his mom all of the time, because he just does not want to deal with her (she is incredibly overbearing and very judgmental and intruding). I have seen him lie to get his way many times over the course of our M. he has lied to me more times than I could ever count.

He lied about the EA, even when I showed him proof. Still to this day insists it was not any kind of A, even when our MC told him it was an EA. He chalks it up to a few inappropriate emails and nothing more, but he is sorry it hurt me and he swore he would never engage in something like that ever again. I DO believe he will not, even though I have many reasons not to trust him.

Oh, and I will need a way to tell him he cannot go on this trip without TELLING him he cannot go. I am 100% UNenthusiastic about that. I do not trust him OR his friend enough. I do not feel it is ok for him to go back to his college town to go drinking. At all. He has had way too many uncomfortable situations that involved being away from me and drinking AND this stupid friend.

Gdar,

I'm still catching up on your story...But please anser this: Are you guys working with a MC who uses Marriagebuilders Concepts?

No, there are none in our area.

ETA:

Our MC believes in the trade-off thing for IBs. Like he gets Brovernight with his lame-[censored] friend (and I was instructed by our MC to never bad-mouth his friend to my H because male bonding/friendships are important), then I get to go see my friends. Taking turns, but coming up with a schedule that we are both enthusiastic about, whether it is every other week or once every 4 months.

GDar,

I am not sure what to say about this becasue you are not doing MB in your Marriage Counseling.

Because of that some of the things you get from your counselor will directly contradict MB. For example, your MC's stance on IB trade-offs seems to violate the POJA and enable the continuation of behavior which both of you don't like in the other.

Didn't he already tell you that he wasn't going to go?
This is classic Passive Agressive behavior and the best way to deal with it is take him at his word.

"Honey, I am glad you told me about Friend asking you to go on a weekend and I am also really glad you told me you turned him down. That really helps build the trust between us and helps me know that you know you need to spend time with me and the family right now. When you get this budget stuff figured out, we will try to find out a way to get you and me some down time together."

You don't need to fall for the "be a martyr" thing because you are not enthusiastic about him going. Just give him some brownie points for turning the guy down.

Oh, and I will need a way to tell him he cannot go on this trip without TELLING him he cannot go. I am 100% UNenthusiastic about that.

This sounds like you are trying to find a way to manipulate him to not go on the trip. While I agree that if you start confronting him about his lying, he may go underground to party with the friend and then he may start going underground with affairs too....

I do not know what to say. Your husband likes that lying friend of his and you know that "birds of a feather stick together".

I fault YOUR HUSBAND for choosing and keeping a friend like that. I can predict it will end up hurting him and hurting the family in the future.

Sounds like your husband knows how to "playact" for a while giving you a few good days to soften you up and then he manipulates to get his way to drink, party, and flirt with other women hoping you will not mind.

Does your husband have all the power in your marriage? If so, he does not care if he lies or cheats on you since he has all the power and you will do basically nothing about it. What power do you have to put your marriage on track?

"On track" may look like this:

1. No lying to each other
2. No doing things with liar friends
3. Loves to be around the family/your children
4. Likes to get home from work early
5. Cares about you more than anything else
6. Cares to communicate with you
7. Diciplines the kids along with you/same page.
8. Takes care of the puppy
9. Other things______________ and __________ and _______.

I find that agreed upon "rules" are best so everyone knows what is expected. For example, my DH is Catholic and I am Protestant. There is only so much Catholic service I can put up with (as they don't let Protestants take communion!) so we mostly go to a local Methodist church. But every once in a while we would go to the Catholic church. But it got to be every Sunday I would feel nervous asking about what church we would go to or him just saying we should go to the Catholic Church this week. After a while this bothered me so we worked out a POJA that we would go to the Catholic Church on the last Sunday of the month (Donut day!) and on any major religious holidays and the Methodist Church the rest of the time.

Similarly with my kids, if I asked them to help clean up after dinner, one would put the food away and one would wash a couple of things, but nobody was in charge. If there was a possiblility that someone else could be responsible for the work they would try to get out of it. I got tired of this so I made rules so that one of them helped with dinner on odd days (the other was in charge of the dishes) and visa versa on even days. No more whining because everyone knows what is expected.

Maybe spell it out for your DH.

Yes, this. Exactly. I have the book Living with the Passive Aggressive Man and I HAD made some changes to how I react to this. Last night, though, I chose not to address it because right now (with his work) he has bigger issues and I was trying to avoid andy and all conflict because he was in a bad space.

I agree. Problem is, we make agreements like this all of the time and they never stick. Ever. This is where I am powerless because I do feel I have tried every approach, many of them I learned here, and nothing lasts. All the way down to the Post It Notes (I believe EARS or Stella suggested) a couple of years ago. Problem with that is, if you look at something X amount of times, it no longer stays visual. Like piles of laundry that just get stepped over. Once you step over it X amount of times, you lose sight of it and it becomes a habit.

I agree. I am. If we were MBers and we had POJAs and whatnot, I would have a different stance. There is no way in hell he is going on this trip. If I tell you WHY this is a no-go, you are just going to hate him more, Stella. And that isnt good for you, me OR my marriage.

Gdar....wow...I am not sure how you can handle this....In the LB book it deals with this issue of "friends/relatives" and your H's buddy is a poster child for that chp! In my case it's my BIL who is the terminally single party prono king...so he's never going away...at least friends you may have a chance of getting him out of your life at some point.

The fact that he is single is a huge issue IMO...single men are on the prowl everywhere they go....and they like to go to bars and strip clubs and so on....I suspect this is what your H is planning with his single buddy....there's noway my H would be going on something like that.

If you have to....tell him straight up that YOU and the kids will be going on this 2 day vacation with him....that is what I would say....no seperate vacations...I can't believe your MC is saying that's a good idea....I think you need to dump that MC...and shop around for someone willing to do it the MB way instead or at least be open to read the materials and apply them...good grief...I feel for you.

GDar,

IMO, the larger issue isn't the trip..it's the lying and the destructive friendships. On your side of the street is the pasive-aggressive manipulation thingy.

Have you considered picking one program and sticking to it?

What I mean is - I am not seeing how your MC is helping.

This MC is an enemy of your marriage. BTDT. I like how ML says that your money is better spent on a pedicure. At least that isn't slashing your marriage to shreds the way this person is. I have thought about calling the folks that I paid good time and effort and money to, and letting them know how their bad advice affected us, but I haven't gotten the courage yet. It makes me cry inside when I hear my friends whose MCs saved their marriage, by advocating MB concepts like POJA and Rule of Care and Rule of Protection. MCs in my area. Because I could have acted and ditched the substandard MC for a better one, but I didn't, until it was too late for us. We could have had the same lasting marriages my friends have earned, had we just invested our time more in line with our values. Another part of my half of the breakdown of my marriage.

ITA the LYING is terrible....should she tell him she read those texts? if she does he will just make sure to erase them right away next time and she won't know anything that way....just thinking out loud here....and yes that friend is toxic...just like my H's brother can be....barf.

gem,

I believe that gDar needs to stop concerning herself with micro issues (individual incidents) which are merely symptoms of the larger issues.

I also think that she's going to continue to go around in circles because she's working with a MC who is giving them marriage advice which appears to be opposite from what she's learning and talking about here @ Marriage builders.

I believe that as long as this is the case, she'll always be dissatisfied ...being caught between what the MC says (which her H will be able to use against her to maintain the status quo) and what she knows is the right way to have a marriage via MB.

I see that too Chris....that's why I haven't even suggested MC for my H & I here locally....if it's not MB then it won't "fix" the issues we have....so I get what your saying...doing what Gdar's MC is telling her to do is using the giver/taker situation....I get one party vacation then you get your party vacation....and I can see where her H is gonna just LOVE this MC and hate MB concepts like POJA and so on LOL....anyone that is heavy into lying/IB isn't gonna be happy about POJA....that's why my H says it doesn't work...says POJA still causes someone to "lose" it is not a win/win....he doesnt understand it or the value of it but that is the key "understanding" why these concepts are so important.

Sorry I got carried away.....no more t/j Gdar!

Some MCs can hasten your way to the big D with extra helpings of pain and suffering along the way

No, this idiot is married with a child and broke as a joke (but always has money for beer).


I need to get that LB book, at least for myself. I have 3 other Harley books.

He knows I check from time to time. It was an agreement we made after the EA - that he be transparent with me. Thing is, now he feels enough time has passed and he should be trusted and does not like me looking at his phone. Not so much as what I see, but because he feels untrusted. But yes, after I have told him I checked his phone in the past, he just started deleting the texts, but usually for a few days. He still deletes his emails pretty regularly, though. But I do have full access to his email, as well.

He reminds me of a kid with his lying. He feels I treat him like his mom, whom he has always lied to, so he lies to me so he doesn't have to listen to my "wrath". It is not an everyday.non-stop lying issue, but when it is about things I am not comfortable, like this loser friend, he lies by omission because he knows I cannot stand the guy.

Chris, I do believe you are correct on all counts. I feel like I cannot micromanage the small things, but they are indicitive of a bigger issue. We have not been to MC together for a while now because of his work schedule, but during and after the EA, I did find it very helpful, but simply because my H saw the hurt he caused me and was proactive in putting more care into our M.

I would love to find something and have it stick. I unfortunately do not have the faith in my H it will stick. That saddens me.

I need to do a MUCH better job of cleaning up my side of the street. It has been a long process and I have made many changes, most unnoticed by him, but I can feel them. I have learned ways to pick and choose battles because of his passive aggressiveness, but things like this situation, where I am having a BAD reaction to even the THOUGHT of him going on this trip, I fail. I honestly have no idea how to handle it. Being what he is dealing with right now with work, I feel I cannot bring it up right now, but the weekend is fast approaching (end of June).

No apology needed, this is exactly how I feel about it. This is why I bought the books, why we do the HNHR questionnaires (3 times so far in 2 yrs), he has the books on his nightstand. Why I am super hesitant about bringing him HERE (because we cannot afford an MB weekend, though I know those have ceased) is because there is no way POJA is going to happen here. We discussed it a couple of years ago when he skimmed the book and he did not think that was doable.

But you're working 2 noncongruent programs with your H, Gdar...

He said he wasn't going, so leave it at that. You sound like you need to clarify that with him, and I think that would be a fine thing to do. "I just want to be clear, honey, that I understood you correctly...you are NOT going on that overnight with d-bag, right?"

Hopefully he will ease your fears about it. If he hems and haws and gives you the IDK, just tell him how it would make you feel if he were to go. Perhaps offer an enticing alternative.

He told ME he was not interested in going, did not say he was NOT going and did not say what his response was to his friend other than "not interested in the overnight", but what he actually told his friend was "not interested in an overnight for that length of a drive, it would make more sense for TWO nights" or something along those lines.

I will seek clarification this weekend, because today is going to be a horrid, horrid day for him.

I am still in the "try anything" place. I do not believe he will be on board with MB at all. It is too disciplined. History has shown me he cannot stick to even the most basic of marital agreements.

But that is the crux of the matter....making a commitment....your H and mine love to fence sit!

I also call it putting ones head in the sand....if I ignor it long enough it will just go away.

I have to have it the MB way....as any other way won't work....all the other programs I have read do not deal with IB...they actually encourage it and call the opposing spouse controlling or jealous or just a insecure nutcase.

Did you happen to listen to the MB radio show today? a man called up upset that his W is saying she's gonna D him...come to find out he has been neglecting her for yrs and this isn't the 1st time she has threatened D...and each time the H perks up some and tries to pay some attention to his marriage but after a short while goes right back to his old habit of neglect...he even said he thinks "hey I a married...why do I have to do anything more"....and this time the W is really wanting nothing to do with him....his presence makes her physically feel ill! Geez I could so relate....I went thru that for 5mo's recently and it took shear will power to force myself out from that place....it won't take much to shove me right back in there....the next 4days will be the truth time in my marriage....the agreement we had for him to decide if he will do the MB program or not is up....we will finish the next 2 chp's of the IB section and then I will expect his decision....good or bad I am prepared....I am taking Dr.H's advice to me....either way....I won't be in this place of fence sitting much longer....he's in or he's not....and then I go to Dr.H's plan and forget about the rest...it is much to stressful to remain in the place of trying to plan A someone (which is what they told the guy on the show today to do) and stay there too long...I will move on.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I do agree that addressing micro issues is a waste of time when you haven't implemented the foundation of this program. Fix the macro and the micro will take care of itself.

Focusing on micro issues is a needless distraction in a marriage that has not implemented the basic concepts.

I wish I felt he would be on board with this. I also wish I could call his best friend and tell him to take a flying leap. LOL

Ok, I just bought LB and the 5 Steps. Now I think I have all the books! LOL

So, how do approach this without making him ... want to run away? The last 2 times I brought books to him, his response was "great, what did I do now"...

You know what, Eff this whole freaking thing.

OMG.

H has been deleting all of his emails today, including every one that has been sent. I opened up one that was sent from someone at his old school and found out why.

Ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Now I have to freaking tell him I looked today and I do not even want to deal.

Well, *she* is scheduled to be at his school today for a brief overview of a program that kids leaving his school and going to her school. I did not see any direct correspondence between the two of them, but when he replied to this other person about setting up a space for her to come and do the intro, she was CCd on it.

He PROMISED me there would never, EVER again be ANY contact with her whatsoever. He lied to me by omission BY NOT telling me she would be there today. Luckily HE is not there, because he is at a meeting at another location, but this was an emergency meeting that just came about last night - so if that would not have happened, they would have been TOGETHER at his school today!

Ok, I just looked at the email again. Since I had to pick up my son today from school at the same times her deal was scheduled, I am just going to tell him I saw her at his school. Yes, I am going to lie - because I have the distinct feeling he is going to turn this around and make it about ME checking his email.

OMG I am so livid right now I cannot even think right.

Crap, that will not work. I just saw he got a brand new email that changed it from today to June 11th. Should I bring it up and see if he is truthful?

I have a better idea. I am showing up at his school next Friday and then I will SEE her and we can go from there.

I have no idea how I am going to maintain my composure. I really don't know.

this could not be happening at a worse time, either. Today damn near sent him over the edge with work stress, and me saying anything is going to make it so much worse. Effffffffffffffffffff.

*HUGS* ((((( Gdar )))))

Ok, what would calmer minds recommend? I think they would say don't assume... maybe, not sure. Give him time to tell you the truth? But don't "test" him?

I wouldn't qualify as a calmer mind, myself, just trying to guess what one might say.

Or would they say that you need to be as H&O as possible, short of revealing your source?

(((Gdar)))

I can't imagine how you must feel. I felt very uneasy back when you posted about your H wanting to go to the conference w/OW...and then some other things you have said raised bug redflags.

PLEASE please post about this in the SAA forum. I think your H is still foggy and they will be better equipped to help you over there. Hang in there.

Susie, he was not going to go to that conference without me, period. We established that. Since I cannot go, he canceled.

I KNOW there is nothing going on between the two of them, and he is trying to be professional, but I still cannot shake that he has yet to share this information with me. As SOON as it was learned she was going to attend that conference, he told me THAT day. There has been no contact between them and the only contact was she was CCd on an email regarding her doing the meet n greet at his school. Problem is, he has not told me.

Should I just show up Friday?

Right, I got that...but to be honest, I was very worried for you, as a FBS, that he even tried to make the trip happen (regardless of whether you would be there or not).

Now my feelings have been solidified with your post about your H CC'ing OW on an email...and she's going to be at his school???

This is a very clear, black-and-white violation/disregard for NC and your feelings and boundaries. I am sorry, but your H is still wayward and ripe for reigniting his A or starting a new one. I am not sure why you are hesitant to post over in SAA but again I would encourage you to do so.

He is the one who implemented this entire program for a very large school district. He did not know she was going until it was already planned and he got the list of all teachers going from all of the area schools... so I am not concerned about that.

But yes, this is in direct "violation" of the NC and my feelings AND boundaries FOR SURE.

I am not worried about him picking up where he left off with her. I am upset yes, but not because I think they are just going to gaze into each others eyes are run off into the sunset.

#1. In your case, you have a RIGHT to snoop, so you better get over the guilty thing, asap. You are doing this for your M. period.

#2. I do not know about a face to face in the school where your son attends. Are you in that much control? I wouldn't be.
There has to be another way-- (if you do not want to let on about the email) --For example, can you have a conversation with another staff member- who, incidentally btw- happens to mention OW presence in the school?

Then you can check his story.

Calm, calm head. This is an opportunity-- and a pain in the butt.

Thanks, Barbie.

I am feeling less guilty. I checked again this morning. So far he did not actually CC her in the email, he did a "reply all" to which she was originally in the CC line. That is as far as any contact I can find. I looked at the documents for this prgram on the computer and I can find zero reference to her. From what I can glean from what I have seen, she is taking her students that were in the program (she is at the highschool, my H is middle school now) and going around to area middle schools (all of them) to talk about how much the program helped the kids (now that it is being implemented at the middle school level for this upcoming year).

My son is not part of this program, but a lot of his friends are.

Yes, I can have a conversation and find out that way. I am also going to suggest I stop by Friday to p/u our son, and if he says he will do it (knowing Fridays are busy and I have picked him up for the last 2), then I will... ask?

I am calm, I am not freaking out. I am not going to turn into a suspicious person, but just find out what I can. It was hard enough to be lovey dovey all weekend when I just wanted him to tell me. Maybe he will, but I doubt it.

I had my next IC appt last night. I did not make another appt. He is a nice guy, but I am just not getting much out of, and he is as far from MB as you can get. He keeps asking me to get together with my friends outside of the house - take a weekend, thinking that is what I need.

Still no word from H about OW being at his school this Fri and another reference to spending time away to see his POS friend and another friend (whom I like, but still isn't the most trustworthy), so when I asked him if he had made any plans, he said no - they were just "talking about it".

So, should I verbally talk with him, or email him, or ?? about OW coming to his school this Friday? I do not want him to turn this into me getting into his email and checking up on him (which he has done the last two times), because 2 years ago that was the agreement. I need to have something in my head that can steer the conversation back to the point...

This is what I just emailed him.

I feel so terrible for the tremendous pressure you are in at work. Several times throughout the day I wonder and feel for you, hoping you are not taking on too much that is going to stress you to the max. I know how hard you work and how much it means to you to get this just right.

I have appreciated the affection you have shown me when you come home, even when I know your mind is elsewhere. It shows me you care, that even though you are runover at work, you have arms to wrap around you and you like it.

You have been so busy lately and I have been feeling like I am getting less and less information and it gets my mind going places I do not want it to go. I cannot help but feel triggered to my bad feelings when I see your face in your phone or computer and most times wish I had that interest and time spent for us. I know you have work to do and I cannot have you all to myself when I want, but I am trying my best to be patient, as the year is almost over.

This time of year is very stressful for me, because of where we have been this time of year in the past. This time, especially, I really need full disclosure and transparency from you in order to feel emotionally solid. I feel horrible even needing anything from you right now, because you are over extended. Then I feel horrible for feeling horrible - because after all, my feelings matter, too. I keep trying to convince myself to just hang in there and it is almost over and then I get you to myself.

I feel like you are ready to run off with your friends the moment school is over. I wish I felt that you wanted to run off with me the moment it was over. We have been put on the backburner for such a time now, that I do feel disheartened that I feel like I am not the person you want to be with the moment you have that time. I am not comfortable with you leaving with Tom and [censored], to be totally honest. They lie to their wives, they behave poorly when they are not around and they encourage you to do the same and lie to me. It is really not a good feeling and I wish I felt more comfortable, but I do not. I do not feel they are friends of our marriage, but just you independently. But you are a we now - have been for 6 years. I believe enough has transpired in the past that my trust, as much as I want it to be there, is just not there. I do not want you to feel you have to lie to me because you do not want my negative reaction. I am trying really hard on my end, to work on my reactions to things I do not enjoy. It is hard, but I am trying. Have you noticed?

I feel like as time goes on and we are further into recovering over the past two years, that the transparency has become less and less. With everything going on with your work, I feel more left out and that causes me to become insecure. Do you remember when you promised me total transparency? Do you still feel that way, or did you ever? I feel like they are things that are being ommitted, but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish that I could, because I am sure that would make you trust me more, as well.

I was hoping that you would tell me that you have arranged for Slubtbag to come to your school. I waited and waited, hoping, NEEDING, you to be honest with me. You promised me that you would never have contact with her again. Even with these programs (that you also promised me you would delegate to someone else to reduce the possibility of you two coming in contact) you are both a part of. I am really disappointed right now. Do you feel what I asked from you and what you promised to give me is unrealistic? Do we need to readdress these and establish a different agreement? I am desperately looking for an agreement between you and I to stick. This is where my trust issues come into play. I so want to trust you because we both deserve to have this in our marriage. These ommissions put me back at square one, and I do not want it to undo all of the other progresses we have made.

I would not want to do something to hurt you, and I would do anything to keep you from hurt if I could. I was hoping I could get the same from you. Is there a way we can come to an agreement together?

Ok, can I get some feed back over here? Hello?

He just responded with a lie.

Hi Gdar,

I think that asking for feedback might have been more helpful BEFORE you sent the e-mail.

It's hard for me to invest in thinking it through with you when it's already done.

At this point, you said what you wanted to say. Hopefully his reaction is good.

Unfortunately, your letter was SO HEAVY it did not give him much room.

Your very last line is laden with pressure and judgment, do you see that?


How is he supposed to respond to that?

In fact, what kind of response are you expecting here at all?

I think you should post in SAA, gdar. They have far more experience. Frankly, I would think he is completely in the dark about what you want from this letter.

What was the lie? That he's had no contact with her?

I agree. I am not very good at communicating with out that, and to be honest, that was the best I have done in a while. I am just SO upset about the lying and the cycle it creates.

The lie is in regards to the trip with his friends. He does not know that I saw the text conversation between he and his friend (the liar).

His friend asked him to go back to their college town, 4 hours away, for an overnight to get drunk and hang "old school". My H mentioned this to me, but said "X wants to head back to College Town overnight to hang old school, but I am NOT interested at all". What he actually said to his friend was he was not interested in going for ONE night, but for TWO, because it is such a long drive for just a one-nighter. Then his friend told him to lie to me and say they were going camping.

His reply in reference to my email on this subject was:

I need a release from all the stressors and I miss my friends. Going CAMPING with them is not trying to cheat, it is just me trying to get away from the stress".

In reference to the OW, I believe him. He said he would not even be in the building and all he did was fascilitate an area for the Meet N Greet, but that someone else will be in charge. I checked his schedule, he is not lying. He will be offsite at a meeting.

His reply

I appreciate you letting me know how you feel. These are really hard for me to read at work though. As you know, X is out all day and I am absolutely in over my head. Then I get your email and my heart sinks and I know I'm going to be depressed and need to spend time working this out with you when I can't give it the time it deserves because school is chaos, especially with X out.

I would love to go away with you when school is out, but how? We have no one to watch our kids. It is not possible and I need a release from school. Going camping with Y is not an attempt to cheat or be dishonest but to get away from the stressors. I would much rather do it with you or all of us going to together would be fun too. I miss my friends.

If you read the email, which obviously you have, Z invited A and her class to visit the invitees from both schools. I am not going to be there for that. I will facilitate it to happen but will not be a part of the welcome wagon. I have a professional obligation to send out notes to the students. I will have X send the notes to students if that makes you feel more comfortable. Again, I am not "attending" the meeting only help set up the space and get the students there. I have no involvement in the program.

I am trying to be transparent. I know you have access to my email, I leave my laptop for you to look at, I am trying my best to be transparent. I have no reason to not be. Honestly.

I do appreciate you trying to trust me. I just miss hanging out with my friends. I miss hanging out with you. Hopefully we can find a resolution that you will be satisfied with.
I wish I had more time to write you but I have to deal with work right now.

and his next email. Now he is upset.

I get depressed because it so much to deal with at school, it is a bomb. I wish we could talk when I get home instead of emails. And the OW - ommitted thing, I didn't consider it omitted because I did not plan on seeeing her nor did I have any email communication with her. Any time I am with 500 yards, I will let you know. I'm not being funny.

Texts are incomplete messages to each other. Going to College Town is not an overnight option. If we were to go, two is more like it. Duh. I know and he knows that is not going to happen. YOu talk about doing outings with your girlfriends all the time that will never come to fruition.

Why do you go through my messages and then stew? I'm tired of the I"m gonna getcha mode you have. I'm sure you could twist most any text I have into something negative.
X is off the cuff, "lie to her" is being taken to the extreme. He was not serious or at least I did not take it that way. He does not encourage me to lie to you, cheat on you or disrespect you. I realize I made a huge mistake two years ago. Absolutely. I'm sorry it hurts you so much still. I really am.

Not allowing me to see my friends is only builds up my resentment toward you. We can't have opposite weekends cuz your friends are impossible, that is not my problem and should not be held against me. I want to see my friends more and you want to see them less. I wish we could have them over at our house but you don't want them. What does that leave me with? Nothing, except it being a pain in the [censored] anytime I go there or they come here.

I'm sorry I sound bitter. When we first met we talked about how important our friends were to each other. My friends were my family. We promised to not get in the way of that. I know situations change and we must adapt. But not being allowed or feeling as though I'm not allowed sucks.

What are my parameters for seeing my friends? If it is only at our house, then fine, but let them come over. If it is not going out to bars or road trips. Fine. But not seeing them is not an option I'm willing to accept.

I would love to get away with you as i said in my previous email. However, how? $$ we don't have, Sitter we don't have. Let me know how to make it happen because you are my first choice.

I'm sorry this is unedited and rushed but I just don't have time right now

That was a response to this that I sent in between, sorry:

I know you are busy, so you do not have to reply. We can talk about it later. Thank you for taking the time out of your hectic work schedule to address my feelings.

Then he just sent me this, after the reply above:

The problem is not that I don't want to. I just can't adequately. I know my last email is to the point and that is not what you need but I feel I must respond. Not by you, but because I love you. Then I send off something without tact and it makes the situation worse. Ughh. kwim?
I don't mean to attack. I want us to have balance. Right now is not the time for me to find it.

So, I am not sure where to go from here. He has promised me so many things and not followed through. He quit drinking for 6 months and I was so proud of him, but the stress of his job and now the nicer weather showing up - he is back to it. His friends make it almost impossible for him to stay away from beer.

He promised me he would try and achieve balance between work and our family life, and the entire school year is over in a week and it never happened. Then, up above, he says he WANTS to have balance, but right now is not the time?

I have no idea how to help him hold himself accountable. I have no idea what the hell the consequences even are at this point. I am unhappy, he knows it, I have told him over and over what would make me happy and he just wants to run off with his friends, say spending time with me is impossible and that he does not have the time right now to find balance?

This just suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

Wow, Gdar, I had such a pit in my stomach when I saw your thread had been moved.

I look forward to when the vets come by, but in the meantime, I encourage you to look at the Plan B threads, see what those letters look like. They are so specific as to what they are looking for in a plan of meaningful action.

What's wrong with a family trip to celebrate being done? Do you two consider your kids "easy" or "difficult"?

Who could watch the kids so you two could go away at some point? If you have specific plans, would he be more enthusiastic about spending this weekend doing fun stuff with the kids?

What about meeting them at a restaurant for a few hours instead of a days-long visit?

He has not put any effort at all into an actual trip with all of us this summer, though it gets talked about. One of my biggest issues is that nothing ever sticks. I get a LOT of lip service. A LOT. Every single Christmas Break, Spring Break and summer break over the past few years - the first thing he does is head right to his friend's house for an overnight visit. Very first thing.

Our kids are easy. We have 4, but the older are a big help - we are very much a helpful family.

I made arrangements over a month ago for he and I to go to WA for our 5th wedding anniversary mid-July. We have nothing else planned for the family or just the two of us, no.

His parents are not speaking to us, my dad has never been much involved and my mom was unemployed for a year and just got a new job and is really busy with that. I am hoping that one of our 4 sitters will be more available now that school is out, however.

We have been round and round. His friend is totally broke and cannot afford dinners out. I have already suggested this over the years. We agreed when they came here, no overnights, but they end up staying over anyway - and then if I state my boundaries, I wind up the big [censored] who doesnt believe in fun.

Glad to see you over here, Gdar. I only have a second but...

if I could recommend something else ~ changing your thread name to something like "H recently broke NC" and then give a summary of where you are at in R so folks here can get a better idea of what is going on, I don't think most will go back and read the whole thing.

Gdar-I am sorry that I am not familiar with your story. I was trying to read some of your backstory. I know that it is A LOT of stuff, so I am sure that I would miss something.

From the posts that I have read, it seems like you two don't follow POJA. Is your FWH on board with MB? It seems that a lot of your resentment comes from the IBs that your FWH seems to exhibit. Was it like this before his A as well? Does it seem like you two are going back to your M BEFORE the A?

Sorry not to be of more help. Lots to read.

Scotland, thank you for chiming in. I have read your story and find you incredibly strong!

Our courtship was whirlwind. During this time, I learned that I could not stand his best friend, but tolerated him, as he is important to my H. Things have transpired since we have been married where the friend is a part of, that I am not ok with. Once our child was born, I tried to set healthy boundaries about what was ok and what was not (no reason to have overnights, in my opinion - he thinks that is totally unfair). Then child #2 and my H's drinking got out of hand (also, with this friend) and a couple of incidences in our home that were NOT ok and H agreed to no more overnights. That lasted a handful of months. He has always felt (since we had kids) that I make him choose between his friend and me. I do not feel I do so. I expect respect and his friend has proven to me he does not give respect. He is NOT a friend to our marriage at all. He encourages my H to drink on a daily basis. I understand my H is a grown man, but sometimes I feel that the two of them will never grow up and they fuel each other to act like they are still carefree, college drunks.

Oh, this friend is 40, has a wife and a 2 yr old (and talking about having another child when he can barely afford food).

I am sorry, I did not answer this before.

I came across this site before I found out about the EA. It was because of this site that I found out he was having one. I bought the books, we have done the questionnaire (HNHN) 3x. The last time we did it, he met my needs for about 3 days, then it was back to same ol, same ol. He says I meet all of his needs. He has skimmed through HNHR (for parents), but that is the extent of it.

We are awful at LBing each other with DJs and SDs. Thankfully, no AOs. That would be a deal breaker for me.

I believe that LB is just as important, and sometimes more important than HNHN in most cases. As I have seen posted to others, it doesn't matter how many LB deposits you make if you are making MORE withdrawals. Obviously he commits IB in GREAT abundance and it is draining your LB big time.

Do you blame this friend for your FWH's actions? Or is it just that when your FWH is with this friend, you feel like he becomes a different person? I am just trying to get a "feel" for the sitch.

Did the two of you(your FWH and yourself) have a solid plan for recovery? Were there requirements that you had for your FWH? Did you do a Plan B?

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can reply in a healthy manner? I am sure I sound like a bowl in a china shop when I communicate sometimes, but I have come a long, long, long way in the past two years.

I am sure in his response you can see the score sheet about my friends vs his friends, which I used to engage in. I stopped doing that 2 years ago. I am sure I have slipped up from time to time, but nothing is standing out in my mind right now.

His comment about how my friends are impossible and that I cannot blame him for that (I do not) is frustrating to me. My friends aer all single mothers with demanding jobs and 2 of them live 2 hours away. The way H and I work (and it is NOT working) is these ideas to go see friends is always rather last minute. In MC he agreed that once every 3 or 4 months, he would go see his friend overnight. He agreed. Then, when he made plans to see his friend outside of the agreement, he then tells me he did not think our agreement was fair and he did not intent to stick with it and "sorry, but that is just how it is going to have to be" . His friend is available almost any time because he does not put his wife and child first. H disagrees with me, but at the very same time, H will say that his friend is better than my friends because he makes the time to see him. My friends, like I said, are single moms and cannot just drop their plans or change their schedule with 1-4 days notice. They are EVERYTHING to their family and it is just not in the cards for them to run off and "hang" whenever they feel like it. For my H and his friends, this is very much how it is. The child care gets delegated to the wives and they make it happen. The stars and planets do not have to align perfectly like it does for us.

I am too hurt by his last response to respond in a way that is good for either of us. I am still waiting for my LB book to be delivered, and I hope to learn a lot from it and incorporate it into our marriage.

There was no plan B. I was 9 months pregnant with our 2nd child when this was all going on.

My H agreed to:

-No contact with OW
-If there was a program or situation where they could cross paths, he would delegate it to someone else
-No lunch/coffee with women
-No alone time with women
-No intimate conversation with women
-No going out to bars/strip clubs EVER
-Total transparency with his emails/phone calls/text messages

Now these (following)were more for the good of the family, because during the EA and the birth of our son, he started drinking heavily and having parties at the house while I just had a newborn.
-Cutting way back on the drinking
-Limiting his overnights and arranging them to be once every 4 months
-Said friend I can not stand (and another total moocher 40+ yr old friend) to NOT stay the night at our house any more.
-If said friend comes to visit with wife and child, he needs to bring his own beverages and a contribute to the food in some way
-Spending more time focused on my needs
-Less time texting/emailing, and only on agreed upon hours

there are more, but this is all I can come with at the moment. These were put in place 2 years ago

Come to find out, he did not.

She was CCd in an email sent to him.

And were they followed to your liking? Have there been times when you felt resentment over any of them not being followed?

I know that you mentioned the drinking has increased. If he is not supposed to go to bars, where does he drink?

I really hope that Schoolbus comes on here to de-code what your FWH was saying. In his response, he mentions the opposite weekend thing. What is that? I am thinking that it is where you go out one weekend, and he goes out the other weekend. My WH and I had that agreement too. It was a BAD idea. Are the two of you spending ANY UA time together? I know it is hard to accomplish time alone when you have a family to raise and jobs to work. It is definitely a must.

I don't know if you should respond to his response, yet. I think you want to get it right.

As far as this friend he has, I don't know how you are going to negotiate that one.

I feel bad that you didn't enjoy the day that celebrates your job as a mom and your beautiful children.....
Feel proud of yourself and your abilitiy to be a great mom, the work is hard but worth more than you will know.
We all want to be appreciated and I'm sorry your husband doesn't get that......
Be the best mom you can be and your children will surprise you many times through out the years.....
Tell your husband that it hurts you that he doesn't seem to appreciate your job as a mom......

I know you are looking for advice on how to respond to your H's letter, but I am stuck on the above.

If your H can't acknowledge that he had an EA...then I can see why he would have trouble honoring NC & EPs...and that needs to be addressed.

Have you considered calling Steve Harley? He has really gotten my H on board. He made us go back to step one, as he explained it, because he finds most couples do not do well "connecting" (meeting ENs & avoiding LB) if they don't have a good "protection" plan in place (NC, EPs, O&H/transparency).

Your EPs need to be more concrete and in writing...for example, some things that should be on there:
~ If an email comes to him with any mention of OW, he tells you
~ no erasing emails and texts
~ no conferences where OW will be
~ spend 15 hrs UA together weekly

And Steve will be a good accountability partner since it sounds like your H doesn't follow through with things.

I have to say the think about the texting with his friend...you are making a DJ buy assuming what he texted abouta possible is what he really thought. You are assuming that what he told you is false, but what he texted was true. It could be the other way around...he didn't want to say NO right away with his friend...he was just throwing around ideas but really didn't want to do it.

That's a great point. Mr W once posted about getting into a bit of an argument with Mrs. W because a friend (male) stopped by his office and suggested going out for a quick drink. Mr. W called home to tell his wife and that violated their prior agreement of POJA about such things. But yet, Mr W like most men, did not want to be put into a position of "losing face" by saying he had to check in with the wife to make sure it was ok before going.

I can't remember exactly how they resolved it, but I think it was that Mr. W would excuse himself to make the call home and if Mrs. W didn't want him to go for whatever reason, that he would tell his friend that a pressing issue came up at home and take a raincheck.

Maybe he'll be by to elaborate more. The bottom line is that WPM made a very valid point. Your H could have been trying to preserve his 'man card' and he could have easily been lying to his friend.

POJAing situations like this beforehand, so you are both in agreement about the script, is helpful.

Thank you for your questions.

1) No, they have not been followed to my liking. I hate to blame this on my H, but he rarely holds up his end of an agreement. I cannot even think of one right now that has been followed through. Yes, it causes much resentment. I get paid a lot of lip service. A lot.

2)He drinks at home, or when he goes to see his friends. A few times he will go to a bar with this friend I do not like, but it is a total wasteland area he lives in - remote and not much other than scroungy old dudes. LOL

3)Not EVERY weekend, but if I get to do something outside of the house, then he gets his turn when he wants it. Our agreement with the MC was that we could arrange these ahead of time. Since I go see my friends out of town once, possibly twice a year, he was seeing his friend that is 45 minutes away every 6 weeks for an overnight.

4)We are nowhere near 15 hours of UA time. He is a school principal and his job is over the top demanding. We also have 4 kids. I do believe it is a must. I have to say, we have both tried to get more time (he gave up trying, but was doing well there for a while by asking our sitters), but all 4 of our sitters are in high school and really busy with homework, part-time jobs, sports, boyfriends, etc... I can think of 5 times recently where we asked each of them to sit and all 4 were busy. His parents live an hour away and are not speaking to us, my mom just got back to work after being laid off for a year, and my dad is not much involved with people. We live 15 minutes apart and will go 9 months before he even lays an eyeball on the kids - and that is because it is Christmas or something.

I agree about the reply. I would like to craft something that is less heavy, and something that he would read and feel compelled to bring more to the table to help us. He tells me all of the time he will do whatever it takes, but when I tell him what I need, nothing happens.

Last night I left the older 2 kids in charge and the moment H walked in the door from work, I announced we were going on a date. We went to dinner. I was hoping to talk a bit, but he seemed too spent, so we just talked about his work, and that was about it. Not much affection or attention from him. He is just too busy.

BTW, Gdar, one of the huge sticking issues in my craw about my husband's EA is that he also balked at admitting it was an affair. He threw out all the right platitudes; he was wrong, he felt awful, he hurt me, yadda yadda. But everytime I would use the "A" word, he would say "it wasn't an affair, it was just words on a computer".

And with that attitude, I will never rest completely easy that proper EPs are in place to prevent some kind of recurrence..with the old girlfriend or someone else.

I think SH could have helped us with this situation but money and my anger intervened. We had a 3rd counseling session set w/ Steve and I cancelled it in a fit of anger. And since then because my husband's UI ran out, money has been too tight to reconsider.

Yes, that is very possible and what he told me. It is our history that tells me otherwise.

OH, we have 4 kids, my H has had to agree to many furlough days because of budget cuts and we just do not have the $ to call the Harley's.

We have POJAd these situations. They don't stick.

Can I get some pointers on how to respond to his last email?

After reading through a bunch of these posts, I feel like I am not sure where my post belongs. The EA was 2 years ago and nothing has taken place since then in regards to an A.

bump

I just did the Shirley Glass relationship vulnerability map quiz and scored a 29 - one point shy of Rough Waters. Ouch.

Gdar, if he will not stop the silly slumber parties with his friends, I'd go plan B. He's a grown man with a family, not some 20-year-old college kid. If YOU can't go with him to party all night because of the kids, then guess what? HE can't go out and party all night BECAUSE HE HAS KIDS.

Why, oh why would you agree to never get between him and his friends? He told you right from the start that you'd never come first. The kids will never come first, either. His sacred party time with his friends comes first. He said it...THEY'RE his FAMILY.

The "I'll resent you if you don't let me hang out with my friends" is a THREAT. A juvenile one at that. That's right out of the eighth grade handbook of WAAAAA.

What I would say...now I can't even remember what you're responding to...I'll go read his last email.

CWMI, can we clarify that he is not partying. He goes to his friend's house (his wife and child are there) an they hang out and sit in chairs in the garage and drink beer, then go to bed, he gets up in the morning and comes home. Not exactly a party. LOL

When we got married, it would have never occurred to me to come between him and anyone. Before I found this site, I found that very controlling and unfair.

LMAO @ out of the handbook of Waaaaa. I needed that laugh, thank you.

Please go read and HELP ME. I am sitting here, letting my kids watch too much TV because I am so on edge and need to get this done!

I believe he would get more of what he wants (time with friends) if he put the time in with ME. His reply says he is too busy to reach the balance between work and home. He is CHOOSING work. The moment work is over for his 3 week break, he is CHOOSING to put in the time to his friends before me and using the "we have no sitter" as an excuse to say since he cannot get that free time with me, he is going to see his friends instead.

Now, if we were in the right place and my Love Bank was filled (hell, I would take half filled), I would not have a problem with him going overnight to see his stupid friend. I prefer he do it at their house with the wife and child there, than them go off camping someplace (he is not the most resourceful guy around) to get drunk and eaten by bears. LOL He has asked me to go with him, and I did once. I do not like the way they live (2 giant, stinky dogs and 2 flea-ridden cats) in a dingy little house with a mud driveway. That one overnight, when we climbed into bed, it was FULL of sand (from whomever must have slept there before us, as they live near the beach). Gross. I do not even like sitting on their furniture, which is all hand me downs from 1950. I saw how he lived BEFORE he met his wife, and I refused to even sit down. It was just disgusting. So no, I do NOT want to go there and I do NOT want my children there. Their socks are black after time spent there. Blech.

lol, drinking beer in someone's garage is a party to me...I feel so lame...

Okay, I read the last two emails, is that what you want to respond to? I'd say that he is very correct, that situations change and you need to adapt, and you're finding yourself increasingly resentful of being left behind to care for his children while he goes out drinking beer in garages. That you had children together, but it leaves you feeling like a single mother. You feel like you're the only one who adapted to the changing situation of having babies in the house again. (yours are teens, right? 'ours' are quite young?)

Ugh, I'm just so frustrated for you, I really just want you to load up all his clothes, kiss him goodbye, and hand him your lawyer's business card on his way out to buddy's garage. This is not a man who has extraordinary precautions in place, he's living like he's single.

Grown, responsible, RESPECTABLE husbands and fathers do not leave their wives and kids at home to have sleepovers with their drinking buddies. Especially FWH, or FWW.

I agree. But I do now want to leave him. I love him. I want a happy marriage and I want CARE in my marriage. I know I have to clean up my side of the street, but it is hard because when we do the HNHR stuff, he says I am meeting all of his needs.

He does not go often. Well, he used to, but his work schedule has left him with hardly any free time, so he has not seen his friend in about a month, maybe more. The last time his friend came to town, it was to let my H use his truck and help him move a fridge from our rental to our garage here at our house. He did not talk to me beforehand, but asked his friend to come back later and stay over. His friend could not, because he had his dad with him. Thank freaking God. I would have went through the roof had he come back and my H would have made ME feel bad if I was upset. Again, we made an agreement to have these planned out and many times he asks without discussing it with me first. How we came to the agreement in the first place was because he was making plans with him, THEN asking me, and if I said I was not interested, he would get mad at me and blame ME that he could not see his friend - that I was keeping him from him. After we had our first child, no, I did not think it was at all fair he got to go every 3 weeks to stay overnight. Then, when he had the EA during my pregnancy with my son, I did not want him going ANYWHERE overnight AT ALL, period. But our MC still insisted that I needed to allow it, but that we just needed to come up with an agreement about how often. Then my H told me that he only agreed to the MC, but that he had no intention of seeing his friend the way we agreed and I was just going to have to accept it.

He is jonesing to go because it was been a while. I get that. I have not gone to see my friends 2 hours away in 8 months. My friend is about to have a baby and I have yet to see her pregnant and her baby is going to be born with a physical disability. I AM attending her baby shower, however, and I have already talked to my H about it. This is a DJ, but I am fairly certain he will remind me that I "got my time" with my friend and that it is his turn.

Oh, and yes. I would like some help so I can respond! Even though he pretty much told me in the email that he is too busy at work to "deal" with my emails.

Thing is, we cannot seem to talk about it at home. He is too tired.

Can I ask why the two of you have no joint friends in town where you live?

I just received this email:

Thank you for going out to dinner last night and enjoying a mellow evening of Glee I'm sorry for not being as supportive as I should have been yesterday over email. I love you and I hate the fact that you don't always feel it.

He is from a coastal town, and his friend is still there.

Three of my closest friends moved 2 hours away (when I was married before, I followed and lived there for 4 years and I actually have a LOT of friends in that city). We live in a town people like to get away from when they grow up, I guess.

He went to college 4 hours away and a few of his close friends also went to this college, but none of them live in our city. He has a friend I like a lot, they live about an hour north and also have a daughter the same age as our son, but they are always really busy. When he starts telling me I keep him from his (loser) friend, I remind him that I am more than open to inviting the friend down that I do like, as I get along great with his wife.

He has a friend here in town that I also like, and like his wife, but this guy is SUPER devoted to his wife and they are real homebodies and he turns down our many invitations almost always. They are just not that social. It is a shame, because I bet my H would stop needing loser friend if his good friends would come around more often.

We are great friends with our neighbors, who also have 4 kids - all the same age as ours, but they had to short sale their home and moved to the other side of town. She went back to school to become a teacher and her H is trying to get his business off the ground. 3 of their 4 kids are on a LOT of sports teams. Since they no longer live 2 doors down, we have only seen them once socially. We both miss them.

Ha! Guess who I am going to call to get us all together as soon as school is out! Thank you for asking me this question, as it gave me a great idea.

My best friend lives here in town, but we do not like her BF at ALL, although we are really nice to him when we do see them. We pretty much shut down our house as the social hub (we host many football viewings here because we have a 120" projection TV system and a media room) when my H was having aa hard time with his drinking.

Gdar - do you see what he is doing here? He is placing the responsibility for you being in love with him on YOU, instead of taking it upon himself. It is not your responsibility to be in love with him, it is your responsibility to get him to feel in love with you.

You fill his Love Bank and he feels in love with you and so life is ok for him and he'll just sit back and splash around in his love feelings for you and expect that just because he's feeling love for you, that's enough for you to feel it back. He's confusing the FEELING of Love with the VERB/ACTION of Love. He can feel love for you all day - you're not going to know he loves you unless he ACTs from love and shows you care.

Doesn't work that way.

HE is responsible for the way you feel about him.

Perhaps you can respond to him in that vein. Something like:

"I hate that I don't feel your love for me, too. Maybe we can talk about what you could DO to help me feel that."

I wonder if he was the one feeling what I went through... he never had to endure the feelings I went through because of his EA.

Sometimes I fantasize about having one so he could FEEL what it is like and it would wake him the hell up about what is really important. Not friends, not work, not beer, but US. Marriage. The foundation that makes everything else possible. I have a feeling the entitlement of what he deserves and his assumption that I keep him from HIS family - his friends - would be small beans in comparison to what it feels like to have your spouse start to fall in love with someone else.

Yes - this! Thank you for articulating what I could not.

I have tried that approach before, and I honestly cannot recall what the outcome was (but it obviously did not work, as here we are).

If he is sorry that I do not feel his love, and I FLAT OUT TELL HIM what he can do for me to feel it, why isn't it happening? If he says he wants to know, says he will do what I need, WHY is not taking place? I just DONT UNDERSTAND.

about his love bank being full - and he says I meet his needs, then what about how he is telling me he is resentful that I "keep" him from his friends? I do NOT keep him from doing anything. If he is going to do something that will make me unhappy, I tell him and remind him that I am NOT telling what to do or not to do.

If he is so happy and in love with me, then why he is pushing so hard to blame me for not getting to do what he really wants to do? And if I am meeting his needs, why isnt he meeting mine?

I plan A'd the heck out of him after the EA. Had a ton of SF. Then, the night before our wedding anniversary (which was 2 months after D-Day), he hosted a Bachelor Party that I was not happy about (because it started at our house and I had a newborn) and they went to a strip club, where his loser friend who could not put food on the table for his wife and just born daughter, bought my H a lap dance. This was after he promised me he would not go to the strip joints in the first place. So, our entire anniversary was ruined, right after the birth of our son was ruined (by the EA). My point is, I was meeting his needs like crazy and he STILL got a freaking lapdance. Stuff like this. Not that he has done ANYTHING like this since - because I made it very clear I WILL NOT be married to "that guy" and he agreed.

then what about how he is telling me he is resentful that I "keep" him from his friends?

Would it be honest to say that you're resentful about how he is allowing his friends to keep him from you?

This:
You HAVE to ditch the 'marriage at all costs' attitude. He does this because he can get away with it. What were his consequences? Gdar, you're too scared of raining holy hell, and that's your problem. Your H has no consequences.

I'm not talking punishment consequences. Maybe banishment consequences, but those would be natural. "You have some woman rub her nasties in your face, you no longer have a wife, you have a legal financial obligation, buddy."

You aren't that important to him. Or put it another way - there is nothing to motivate him to put you first. You won't leave him, you'll meet his ENs and fill his LB. He just puts up with you nagging and unhappy with him every so often because for the most part life is pretty good. He gets someone that will take care of his kids, he gets to go out and live it up with his buddies when he wants to, he gets his ENs met. If there's a problem, it's your fault. You need to 'just deal' or 'get over it' because his life is great.

I just don't think your feelings mean very much to him. He wants you to feel loved but he doesn't want to do anything to do that. That's why he doesn't consider his EA an A.

What was he like when you were courting?

I understand that his job is very stressful. He's put you on the backburner. You'll always be there so he doesn't have to worry about you, so everything else has a higher priority. A friend of mine in high school once left a pot of water boiling on the stove, then fell asleep. All the water boiled out and eventually ruined the pot and set the kitchen on fire. You're that pot - on the back burner while he's busy making a souffl�. Pretty soon you're gonna be out of water, you're gonna break and the kitchen (marriage) is going to be on fire, ruined.

I find it very telling that when he wants to destress and relax, he feels he has to do it without you. He equates you with more work - work he doesn't want to do. He wants you to love him without having to do anything to EARN it. Maybe that's how you have to put it to him.

"I will feel your love for me when you show it to me. Right now I don't believe you love me because you aren't doing ANYTHING to cause those feelings in me."

Identify SPECIFICALLY what you need to feel in love. Precisely what it is he can do to fill your Love Bank. 15 hours of time, meeting xxx ENs in yyy way. The say "if you want me to feel loved do THIS for the rest of our lives" ....though I'm not sure how to do that so that it's not a SD...

Basically I don't think you've established strong healthy boundaries and a high enough bar for your marriage to survive. That needs to change.

I know you understand this, but you need to be associated with destressing and sanctuary from the world. DH and I have worked HARD to cultivate that attitude. When life is rough, we seek out each other, not someone else. The key to achieving that, I believe is UA time. I think you've said you're not getting anywhere near 15 hours. You will not be able to make ANY progress until you can get that time.

He won't give you that time, because you're still on that back burner.

Have you worked on eliminating your LBs?

You need to make your side of the street pristine.

There need to be consequences for him. I'm not sure what those consequences are. Sorry this post is pretty stream of consciousness and it may not be very helpful.... have you considered calling in to the radio program, to ask them what you should do?

ETA: TL;DR version: He has had NO consequences for the way he treats you, so there is no motivation for him to treat you well. Let him know you WANT to be in love with him, but it is his responsibility to get you to feel that way and you're not going to be responsible for it anymore. Clean up your side of the street and let him know you will only stay in a happy, fulfilling marriage based on MB- he can't keep phoning it in.

Dr. Harley discussed this on the radio show, either yesterday or the day before. You would think that if his Love Bank is full and his ENs are being met, he'd be falling all over himself to reciprocate. DR.H said that that usually isn't the case. I can't remember EXACTLY what he said but what I think is that he feels entitled to feeling in love with you. He feels great, and so he's projecting his feelings of being in love and good onto you, thinking if all is good for him it should be for you too. He doesn't realize that it doesn't work that way.

When people commit to 'love you for the rest of your life' at the alter, they often think they are committing to FEELING in love for the rest of their life. In his mind he's holding up his end of the bargain. He doesn't realize that the commitment he made was really to commit acts of 'love' for you for the rest of your life. Love the VERB not love the NOUN.

He doesn't see the difference.

I also get the impression that he feels overwhelmed by his level of responsibility. He resents it. He resents that he can't live it up as a single guy anymore. He has a wife and children and a stressful job but wants the lack of responsibility that comes with the single life. He and his friendships with those guys you don't like, have romanticized that life into something wonderful. He wants to get away from the responsibility that you have come to symbolize. He made the choices in his life to get this job, have the kids and marry you, but the fantasy single life is filling his head. So he resents you - for being the symbol of all the responsibilities he doesn't want to bear.

He wants the perks of the family, the good job, the kids... but he doesn't want the work that goes along with them. So you've become his scapegoat.

Gdar, I get the feeling you're in much the same situation I've been in, where you ARE in love, but it's unrequited. Notice he didn't say anything about you not feeling love TOWARDS him, but you not feeling love FROM him. You can't get a signal from a dead station.

If he's not broadcasting the message, how are you supposed to hear it?

Maybe you guys could try this, if he'd be willing: each of you take a sheet of paper and make two columns.

THINGS YOU DO THAT MAKE ME FEEL LOVED

THINGS I DO TO SHOW YOU LOVE

It would kind of be like filling out the ENQ, only with this you could compare and contrast...do the things you do to show love match the ways he feels loved? And vice-versa, of course. With this kind of list, you could at least let him know that 'this or that' doesn't really do anything for you, but in a nicer way, like, "I never knew you did that to show your love. I really never got that message from it."

And if he has nothing to put under what he does, well, then, there's another talking point.

Vibrissa, thank you so much for your insight. I agree 100% to everything you said.

I feel helpless to change it. I feel I have tried. I feel like no matter what I try to change, to make better, it makes no difference. I acknowledge the small things he does in hopes they will continue, but nothing ever continues.

I agree he does not see the difference.

I have no idea how to help him see it. I am losing faith he ever will. Fast.

I also believe he is totally overwhelmed by his level of responsibility and that he sees me as more work. I am always upset about something, so I get a lot of "what did I do NOWs". I cannot fake happiness. I AM NOT HAPPY. I will not pretend to be happy so he can stop feeling like I am work.

I have no idea to make him want what he already has. No idea at all. Fresh out. We have struggled with this since we had our first child. He feels he is Mr. Wonderful because after all, as his mother put it, he married someone used (being I was married and had 2 kids). He is raising someone else's kids - isn't he selfless? He works his tail off to provide for a family of 6 - isn't he selfless? He has EARNED his right to drinking in the garage of a buddy! He shows me love by a roof over my head, food on the table and a slap on the [censored]. Why on earth is that wife of his, just not happy?

I am going to totally DJ here, blech.

I have a pretty good feeling what he would put under that list (not all, but some).

I support you financially
I help raise your kids
I keep you dry, fed
I call you and tell you I love you
I share about my days with you
I cook for you on the weekends

and about the consequences? I have no idea how to enforce a boundary because everyone I have set, has been sailed right over. I am out of ideas here. If it looks at all like boundary setting, he feels trapped and like I am telling him what he can and cannot do. I do not know how to set them without him feeling this way.

You would think that having unhappy wife for over 2 straight years would be some sort of consequence, but he just sees it as nothing he can ever do makes me happy. He says often, "damned if I do, damned if I don't".

Those are all good things. Right?

Yes, of course they are good things.

This alone will not sustain my love for him. There are way too many LBs happening that even though he id doing those things, they are not enough for me.

I am really hoping when my LB book gets here, I can get some more help.

Um, I may get smacked here, but this isn't MB101 so it's not as "It's all your fault!" that that board is, but I would suggest stop worrying about his feelings about being trapped (he isn't, btw, he's a grown man who CHOSE to get married, raise another man's children, and have children of his own with his bride) and start worrying about your failure to set boundaries.

There is no good reason why he should spend the night out with his buddies--given the 'trap' he walked into willingly--and there is no good reason why he can't take all of his stuff with him when he chooses to do that instead of doing what he signed up for.

You have every right to say, "I will no longer remain married to a man who stays out all night." Let him pout and Waaaa about it if he wants to; his choice. Your choice. He goes anyway, you know his choice.

Help him pack, so he doesn't come back.

I loaded up all my H's stuff and dropped it in the back of his truck, changed the locks and unplugged the garage. And I'm still married. To me, that's a boundary. I've actually said to him, "You want to stay out all night, go ahead, stay out all night every night, you know the address to send the checks for your kids." and I pulled away.

Girl, there ain't nothing wrong with a little calm-but-crazy.

HERE IS WHAT YOU E-MAILED HIM, IT IS OK. BUT SHOWED YOUR PERSONALITY AND YOUR LACK OF BOUNDARIES, DONT WORRY THIS IS JUST YOU. iI WILL TRY AND GO THRU IT YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOURSELF YOU MAY NOT. THERE IS A REASON HE IS WALKING ALL OVER YOU.

YOU SAID: This is what I just emailed him.

I feel so terrible for the tremendous pressure you are in at work. Several times throughout the day I wonder and feel for you, hoping you are not taking on too much that is going to stress you to the max. I know how hard you work and how much it means to you to get this just right.

THIS IS TRULY LACK OF BOUNDARIES. YOU ARE NOT SHOWING EMPATHY, YOU ARE ACTUALLY MERGING WITH HIM AT THIS POINT. THIS GIVES HIM FREE REIN TO WALK ALL OVER YOU. HE IS TAKING ON TOO MUCH BECAUSE HE WANTS TO, IT IS HIS CHOICE TO DO TOO MUCH WORK AND PUT YOU AT THE BOTTOM OF HIS PRIORITY LIST. TOO NICE, TOO MUCH SYMPATHY.

A PERSON WITH BOUNDARIES WOULD HAVE SAID: "I KNOW YOU ARE BUSY AND HAVE CHOSEN TO TAKE ON TOO MUCH WORK BUT......"

I have appreciated the affection you have shown me when you come home, even when I know your mind is elsewhere. It shows me you care, that even though you are runover at work, you have arms to wrap around you and you like it.

THIS IS SO SAD, HONEY YOU ARE BASICALLY ACCEPTING THAT HIS MIND IS ELSEWHERE. IT DOES NOT SHOW YOU HE CARES WHEN HE HAS HIS MIND ELSEWHERE YET YOU SAY IT SHOWED YOU HE CARED. HE IS NOT RUNOVER AT WORK, HE CHOOSES TO TAKE TOO MUCH ON AND NOT COME HOME TO THE FAMILY, HE CLEARLY PREFERS BEING AT WORK.
YOU ARE TRYING TO TELL HIM YOU ARE GLAD HE STILL LIKES HUGS FROM YOU. YOU ARE ACCPTING THAT YOU ARE LAST IN LINE FOR HIS AFFECTION.

You have been so busy lately and I have been feeling like I am getting less and less information and it gets my mind going places I do not want it to go. I cannot help but feel triggered to my bad feelings when I see your face in your phone or computer and most times wish I had that interest and time spent for us. I know you have work to do and I cannot have you all to myself when I want, but I am trying my best to be patient, as the year is almost over.

"I NEED YOUR TIME, NOT THE SCHOOL, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT LIMITS REGARDING YOUR WORK AND YOUR FRIENDSHIPS OR OUR MARRIAGE WILL NOT SURVIVE"

This time of year is very stressful for me, because of where we have been this time of year in the past. This time, especially, I really need full disclosure and transparency from you in order to feel emotionally solid. I feel horrible even needing anything from you right now, because you are over extended. Then I feel horrible for feeling horrible - because after all, my feelings matter, too. I keep trying to convince myself to just hang in there and it is almost over and then I get you to myself.

YOU SHOULD NOT FEEL HORRIBLE ABOUT NEEDING ANYTHING FROM HIM. THIS IS TELLING HIM THAT YOU ARE NOT WORTH HIS TIME, THAT YOU KNOW THAT "LITTLE OLE YOU" IS NOT VALUEABLE BUT PLEASE GIVE A CRUMB OF LOVE TO "LITTLE OLE YOU" HIS "OLD COMFY SHOW WAITING FOR HIM AT HOME". THIS IS WORDY AND HE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS SO HE WOULD NOT ABSORB OR BE AFFECTED BY THAT THAT YOU WROTE HERE.

I feel like you are ready to run off with your friends the moment school is over. I wish I felt that you wanted to run off with me the moment it was over. We have been put on the backburner for such a time now, that I do feel disheartened that I feel like I am not the person you want to be with the moment you have that time. I am not comfortable with you leaving with Tom and [censored], to be totally honest. They lie to their wives, they behave poorly when they are not around and they encourage you to do the same and lie to me. It is really not a good feeling and I wish I felt more comfortable, but I do not. I do not feel they are friends of our marriage, but just you independently. But you are a we now - have been for 6 years. I believe enough has transpired in the past that my trust, as much as I want it to be there, is just not there. I do not want you to feel you have to lie to me because you do not want my negative reaction. I am trying really hard on my end, to work on my reactions to things I do not enjoy. It is hard, but I am trying. Have you noticed?

"I WANT YOU TO SPEND ALL YOUR FREE TIME WITH ME. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS, BUT RATHER BE WITH YOUR FRIENDS, OR GENERATE MORE AND MORE WORK FOR YOURSELF BY DEVELOPING MORE SCHOOL PROGRAMS, THEN WE HAVE TO RECONSIDER HOW TO REDO THE DYMANICS OF OUR MARRIAGE."

I feel like as time goes on and we are further into recovering over the past two years, that the transparency has become less and less. With everything going on with your work, I feel more left out and that causes me to become insecure. Do you remember when you promised me total transparency? Do you still feel that way, or did you ever? I feel like they are things that are being ommitted, but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish that I could, because I am sure that would make you trust me more, as well.

"I NEED TOTAL TRANSPARANCY, ESPECIALLY AFTER WHAT HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO THAT SUMMER. I FEEL LIKE YOU ARE LYING TO ME AGAIN"

I was hoping that you would tell me that you have arranged for Slubtbag to come to your school. I waited and waited, hoping, NEEDING, you to be honest with me. You promised me that you would never have contact with her again. Even with these programs (that you also promised me you would delegate to someone else to reduce the possibility of you two coming in contact) you are both a part of. I am really disappointed right now. Do you feel what I asked from you and what you promised to give me is unrealistic? Do we need to readdress these and establish a different agreement? I am desperately looking for an agreement between you and I to stick. This is where my trust issues come into play. I so want to trust you because we both deserve to have this in our marriage. These ommissions put me back at square one, and I do not want it to undo all of the other progresses we have made.

"WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME ABOUT SLUTBAG (LOVE THAT NAME) COMING TO THE SCHOOL"


I would not want to do something to hurt you, and I would do anything to keep you from hurt if I could. I was hoping I could get the same from you. Is there a way we can come to an agreement together?

_________________________I WOULD NEVER HURT YOU, WHY WOULD YOU HURT ME BY LYING TO ME AND SEEING SLUTBAG AGAIN? WHY WOULD YOU LIE ABOUT VISITING YOUR FRIEND ? WHY ALL THESE LIES? Y

CWMI, you are awesome! Wow!

Um I cannot do that. I just cannot. And he knows I won't. Again, that is viewed as a "you can do this, but you better no, OR ELSE". This is how he will see it and then I again, to blame for his choice.

There is something pretty huge that happened last Nov that got him to quit drinking, but the stress of his job brought the drinking back into play after almost 6 months without it. I believe he thinks he can be good, when he has shown me so many times he cannot. No, I do not trust him. I wish I could, but I do not. I do not think he will meet someone at work and fall in love and ride off into the sunset, but without fail once a year since we have been married, he has made a very, very poor decision that just sends me deeper and deeper into... unhappiness.

Thanks, Stella. I appreciate your brutal honesty, usually.

He flat out told me he was not lying to me and gave me his reason why he did not tell me about Slutbag.

My question to this is: Now What? I really need help to form a response. I need change and I need it now. Problem is, he made it clear he does not have the time right now. Next week is going to be even worse than these past 2!!

What about that lie he told about staying a couple nights with the dirtbag friend? You know the friend that told him to lie to you?

I will defend him on some points, however.

My H took over this school this past school year. He was very motivated and determined to make it a great year, build morale (they had the same principal for many years and not well-liked) and let his staff feel like they were all on the same team. This is very important to him. This is one of the best schools in the state and the bar was already set high. Then these gigantic budget cuts came and many, many, crucial changes were made. I support him as best as I can. I still let him know my feelings, although it is really hard because I do not want him to feel even more overwhelmed. I have sympathy for his situation, because I empathize with my H. I feel this is a good thing. If I stop that, what good is that? I will not make that mistake in this M. I did that with my ex H and it allowed our M to fall apart.

He replied to that, as well, Stella. Did you read his second reply? He claims it was just chit chat and that he has no intention of going on the trip and that his friend KNOWS he will not go, so he was "jokingly" telling him to lie to me, knowing that he won't. Sometimes, I have to take things at face value.

I think you should do a little bit of research on boundaries and what they are. You are not setting boundaries if he can 'sail right over' them. You are letting him walk all over you and not giving him consequences. (Not punishment, but consequences, there's a difference).

I'll see if I can find some links on boundaries but it might not be till later tonight - got a full evening tonight....*sigh*

My mom emailed me a few times and I had no got back to her because I am in a funk, so she emailed again today asking me to PLEASE email her back (she misses us, she was unemployed for a year and recently got a new job). I let her know nothing has changed, H is still working a ton and that as soon as school is over, he wants to go see Loser Friend. Her reply:

I am thinkin when school is out.....he should be thinkin of spending the time with you guys...to make up for all quality time not spent....that should be his 1st priority......not havin to see Loser for Gawd's sake! Maybe Loser later down the road. Feel for ya! Dad worked alot too back then and his free time or vacation time was fishing with the guys! Just not family men!


I guess I did marry my father in a lot of aspects. Makes me want to puke on my shoes at that comparison. I do not think highly of my father. Rather indifferent.

Oh brother I simply couldn't pass up not posting a reply here today!

I have heard those EXACT same words....remember I have been married alot longer than you and the IB has been going on the full 20yrs in my case.

When your H tells you your his 1st choice he is not being truthful....I would point this right out to him....as he states his TRUE wishes which are not to be with you & the kids but to be with his friends....he associates stress free time with his buddies and more stress/work with you and the kids...it is his mind set and my H has said and done these exact things for 20yrs.....you can explain it and ask until the cows come home but that dog still won't hunt.

When I talked to Dr.H on the radio show he told me I had no leverage....it sounds like you have none either in your H's preception anyway....gaining leverage may be the key for you also.

Reading his reply to you and his "reasoning" is so familair to me....my H said the same things...they say it this way as it JUSTIFIES them running off and doing their IB activites and leaving you THE BABY SITTER stuck at home....it's really funny but sad at the same time...they think your stress free at home with the kids and that they are the only ones needing stress relief time! incredible! With me I was the only one 24/7 so H wasn't around period for weeks at a time for yrs....so that fuels more emotional detachment from the wife/kids and who ever your H spends stress free time with gets to make huge love bank deposits and I believe that includes friends or relatives (in my case H's brother).

The only way to stop this in my mind is to have a baby sitter no matter what....YOU are not his sitter so he can go play! You go play together or nobody gets to go play! and when you 2 go out to play it must be stress free and FUN....just like it is at that buddies place....no relationship talk...just fun times and relaxing....finding something to do that brings that about for both of you.

I am gonna be straight up with you he isn't gonna think it's possible to actually have FUN with you like he has with that buddy...he is comparing the time spent with you to that guy...it's the comparison effect your up against here...trust me on this I know as it's my BIL in my case....and yes men friends can actually pit their friends against their wives....he enjoys his time SO MUCH with that guy that he doesn't care how it is hurting you or missing out on being with his kids....that relationship needs to GO...once you get the LB book read the IB chp's FIRST....the Independent Behavior, Friends & Relatives then Careers/Time Management ones.

When dating my H he had 2 horrible friends I disliked on the spot...I thought they had to GO right away....they were drinking/drugs and so on...wild living no good for nothing kind of guys...fighting and all kinds of stuff...I couldn't believe they were his friends to be honest! I prayed for GOD to remove them from his life....yep that's what I did....and something happened...my H (still dating remember) got a DUI from hanging around with these bad influences....his brother was in the car with him also....lovely...and he couldn't drive anymore....so he had to move from home...away from these friends/brother to live clear accross town by his job....so he could walk to work....since they were all bums with no job or money they were upset he was unavailable to them....their cash cow was to far away and the relationship died...but the brother well he ain't going anywhere.....not his fault...that's my H's fault for putting this brother before me his wife time and time again....that's over with in my home...I WILL NEVER TOLERATE THAT AGAIN AS LONG AS I LIVE...I will flat out leave him in a nano second if he EVER DOES ANY OF THOSE AWFUL THINGS TO ME CONCERNING THAT BROTHER AGAIN EVER.....you'll come to this place one day also....I hope it's sooner than later....your H needs a wake up moment right away or you'll be like me at your 20yr anniversary....it's awful...please don't let that happen....you deserve better....I am rooting for you!!!

Thank you SO much for helping me.

I have researched and from what I have found, I believe my H will still view a consequence as a punishment (or threat) I am enforcing. Therein lies my problem. *Sigh*

You should not make excuses for him, and that is what this is, here. HE brought the drinking back in to his life. If he committed to quit and failed, the responsibility is HIS, NOT NOT NOT the stress. If the stress is too much he needs to change his environment. HE is responsible for picking up drinking, not the job. HIM.

This is you further enabling him. Allowing him to not take responsibilities for his choices. I like how Bubbles translated your letter. You are ALLOWING him to treat you the way he does. You are sending him signal after signal that it is ok, then you are upset with the results.

Boundaries G.... boundaries.

Thank you, Gem! I am happy for you and that you no longer have these situations in your life!

Hi resentment towards me for not liking his friend is pretty intense. He will tell me that he thinks I am not liking him ON PURPOSE just to have control over what he does. What a crock of crap! When the guy got married and then got a DUI, they would count down the clock for an entire year for when he could legally drink again. Really? That was not a wake up call AT ALL - now the guy just has a wife to drive his drunk a$$ around! I have no idea how this woman can not be totally miserable. I understand why she likes my H so much, because my H is 10 times easier than hers, if you can believe that! She ENJOYS it when my H comes over, because then at least she doesnt have to wake up their 2 yr old from sleep to go pick up her loser H at a bar. Well, actually, they moved within walking distance of a bar, so I suppose that sure helped (insert eye roll). Blech!

Again, I still have no idea how I am going to make these changes. My H is going to put the brakes on full speed if he feels I am trying to control him.

I agree, I really do. I have tried to talk to him about it, and he just ignores it.

Want to know why he quit drinking? Because he became THIS GUY and it freaked him out: he got drunk when we had friends over and fully made out with one of my friends, and then tried to initiate a 3some between us.

There. I said it.

The last time we went to MC, he begged me not to tell our MC, so I didn't.

and now I just ruined the possibility of ever bringing H to MB and these boards because he will only care that I told you what a jerk he is, and we will never get to the root of our issues.

I'd like you to see what you're doing here. You are saying that your feelings aren't as important as his job. If YOU feel that way, is it any wonder he does too?

G - I'm so so sorry. I don't want you to think I'm bashing you or anything. I really want things to be better for you. Look at gem, she is where you are headed. He is associating fun with other people, not you - and you're aiding that.

You need to sit down and have a come to Jebus meeting with him. He WILL NOT change unless he decides to. He won't even admit that his affair two years ago was an AFFAIR!!!!

That's why he's not sticking hard core to his EPs, he doesn't believe he needs them, he'll just stick to them to appease you.

Your marriage is no where near recovered.

You need to decide if this is a deal breaker for you, because the way you are living now, this is the best he will ever give you, unless he decides to change. Can you live that way? for the rest of your life? Can you raise your children with that?

The only thing I can think of is maybe a Plan B is in order. I would advise counsel with the Harleys though, if not the coaching center, then really consider calling in to the radio station.

WoW.... G - this guy is another affair waiting to happen. An EA, making out with a friend, resumption of drinking... and by not telling the MC, you've ENABLED him. You've spared him the consequences of his infidelity. You're keeping his dirty little secrets.

I'm thinking exposure.... he needs to feel the consequences of his actions...

wow... just wow...

I will consider calling in, certainly. I wish I could afford the $ for actual counseling with the Hs.

Can I live my life like this? Pfffffffffffffshhshshss, bah. I guess so. I do not want to be divorced again.

My deal breaker is if he cheats again, in ANY way.

I cannot Plan B him. Well, I am choosing not to. I am not strong enough. He will refuse to leave, even if I wanted him to. I know this with every fiber of my being. Funny thing is, I used to view myself as a very strong person.

I love him more than I love myself, which is pretty obvious.

All of my friends know, my mom knows. His mom could care less - she hates me anyway (because I took her from him, in her eyes). Do you really think his FRIENDS would care, one way or another? I am sure he would get a high five and a cheers with a beer can.

WTF! OMGoodness....WTH!......who cares if he ever comes here....don't worry about that....he has twisted it so much that he has you protecting his awful behavior!

You shouldn't have done this or agreed to this....you must explain to him you will no longer cover/lie or decieve for him in front of this counselor or anyone else about his EA or his 3some attempts.

You must also not think that your feelings/needs should come in last to his job....life/jobs will always have stress....always...there will never be a perfect time for you to tell him your feelings...if you wait for this perfect time it will NEVER come and he can run around neglecting you and the kids destroying all love & respect you have for him totally....as Dr.H says you will grow to hate your spouse...believe me he knows what he is talking about there...the longer stuff like this goes on the more resentment builds up and instead of love you feel hate....it's awful.

Oh, and he blames me because upon my acting like a complete insecure freak when I found out about the EA, I told him about a sex dream I had that involved another girl. He LOVED this, and we brought the idea of a 3some into our bed during SF. It was fun, it felt harmless, we knew we would know actually DO this, though he enjoyed it when I talked to my friend about it (the one I had the dream about - she lives in NY).

So, even though he was remorseful about his actions and he went into a deep funk for a couple of months following this incident (and quit drinking cold turkey and even got an AA sponsor), he still did say to me that I was the one that brought this "idea" about, so I was not blameless for what HE did. Yeah.

I had a BIG talk with my friend he kissed. She thought that he was trying to get something going between the 3 of us, and that excited her. She had recently had gastric bypass surgery and lost a TON of weight. She had never been thin, and being 32 was just coming into herself sexually because men never wanted her before. She is moving away, so we won't be seeing her again.

Can someone please help me form a response to his last email? I really would like to get that started. Please. Obviously you can see I need help here, and I have not yet received my LB or FILSIL books...

Gdar,

I have not read but the last couple pages of your thread but boy does a lot of what you wrote sound familiar. Your H is very immature in his thinking. He is a married man with children. He is an adult with responsibilites including a job he signed on for. His choice of friends speaks volumes about the way he thinks. He is on the fence about being an adult. My H spent most of our marriage being like that. I was that "single" mom while my H went out and I stayed home. Boy did I come to resent that.

What I read from your emails/conversations with him is he is used to using blameshifting, gaslighting, your fear of him leaving, and guilt to control you and keep you in your place. You need to take this power away from him.

One more thing, gdar. Boundaries are for you not him. If *you* set a boundary then it is up to *you* to enforce it. IOW, if you say you don't want him to go to strip clubs and then he does...you need to know ahead of time what the consequence will be. It could be you pack his bags and he has to leave. It could be that you ask him to move our of your bedroom for a week. Whatever works for you, you need to decide ahead of time what behavior is unacceptable and what the consequence will be and then follow through. If you don't follow through you lose your credibility.

Remember this...we can only control ourselves and our own behavior but we do not have to tolerate someone disrespecting us.

Gdar what does this other wife look like? With your H going over their home drinking.....I bet she has her eye on him....you better watch this also...unless shes seriously ugly or old and I mean seriously deformed or something...this is very very bad in my mind.

Stop worry about if he will feel like you're controlling him, and step up and take control of YOUR LIFE!

Stop it!

Your H made out with your friend in your home, and now you're supposed to be okay with him drinking away from home, too? No effing way.

No. Way.

STOP IT!

Girl, grow some grrl balls!

So that's two affairs exposed here, how many more are there?

My first instinctual response to this is... if that's the case, then buckle in for the long haul and quit complaining about it. There is no magic phrase or word you can say, now way you can reason, cajole, or compel him to be the kind of husband you want him to be. YOU CANNOT CONTROL HIM. Nothing you SAY will change him because of this right here, the action you are willing to take: you're willing to put up with it to avoid being divorced again.

He knows this. So he will do the bare minimum, because he knows you wont leave. He will continue to neglect, ignore and demean you because he can, it's easy and you don't matter. I bet he will cheat on you again, trusting that he'll be able to hide it and you'll never know.

This is NOT healthy G. Do you want your children to wind up in relationships like your own? If you have daughters, do you want their husbands to treat them like this? You said you felt sick when your mother compared your husband to your father, don't you see the truth of her assessment? He IS that man you don't like who fathered you. You are teaching your daughter that this is OK. So when she goes to find her future husband when he treats her like this, she will think that's how it's supposed to be. She will live the same pain you live every day. THAT is what you are teaching her.

You are focusing on little stuff when the real problem is you have a wayward, entitled husband. One EA, Making out with a friend, it WILL escalate.

Change can only come from within him. You clean up your side of the street, get rid of LBs and be the best wife you can, in order for your marriage to work HE will have to get on board at some point... or you'll just limp along forever like you have been. He won't do that. He doesn't have to. You'll never divorce him because you don't want to be divorced again.

You do have boundaries, your bar is just set so abysmally low... and he's meeting it...

What she looks like is gorgeous when she's got her legs open and he's wearing beer goggles.

NO WAY. EVER.

Stop this, G. He has no boundaries at all.

She is plain, very overweight and freckled. SUPER nice woman, whom I like. I am NOT worried. His friend would slice him in two if anything like that was to EVER happen. His friend was a 36 yr old virgin when he met her and they married 6 months later.

Also, he invites me most of the time he goes over there, so he can feel better that "at least he tried to include me", but I said no. He KNOWS I do not like going over there, at all.

Thank you very much for giving me a tangible example. I was looking for that. I can do that! Yes, I can do that!

That is all I know about. I have one other situation that sticks out in my mind, but he would never, ever cop up to it anyway.

She could be a dang GOAT (and that's not a metaphor) if she meets his ENs he WILL have an affair. Why? Because he has no boundaries, and neither do you.

Overnights MUST STOP. The drinking MUST STOP.

Or your marriage will never recover.

I know you say another incident of cheating is your deal breaker, but he's already done it TWICE with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. He doesn't believe it's a deal breaker for you. He's going to call your bluff one day.

Your frightening me even more here....I don't understand HOW his having a EA would make you feel open to even discussing a 3some in fun or in jest?? I think this would send a very confusing signal to your H....like maybe your open to this as your dreaming of it and telling him this....I am not saying this justifies his actions to kiss this so called friend of yours....but opening pandora's box is never a good idea....it's crowded enough in marriages with just 2 people let alone 3.....you aren't to blame but you must send a consistent message on all of this....your H will run with whatever he thinks he can right now IMO.

I could use some direction with this. If he is telling me his needs are met, and HE is happy, and I am doing things he likes and the way he likes it, then HOW ELSE can I be the best wife I can be? I Plan A'd him after the EA, we have done the HNHR questionnaires a few times, he claims I meet his needs. But the moment I say I have a concern about what he want to do or what he is planning, he gets defensive and resentful and blames me for trying to control him. I need to break this cycle, but I do not.know.how.

She leaves them to their "man time". Her H would not have it any other way. They retreat to the garage and she stays inside with the kid. Her H is the king of IBs and he lays down the law and she follows. There are no needs of my H's that she is meeting.

Boundaries

Post on Boundaries - From Pepperband's notable posts thread



ETA: Here's another post I read from LovingAnyway that describes Enforcing Boundries.

Oh, I agree. I felt that since he had an EA, that I needed to overcompensate and make things exciting. I do not dream about things like that, or at least I didnt, and I woke up thinking "wow" and told him about it. When I saw how excited it made him, I felt I was onto something and allowed the fantasy to be part of our SFs. I thought it would help in the SF department, his biggest need at the time. I realize now what a HUGE mistake this was on my part.

I am reading that as, I need to be away from my H to enforce a boundary. I want MORE time with him, not LESS. Ugh. This is all.so.hard and confusing!!!

If he goes on this overnight to see his friend next weekend, am I just supposed to not be here when he gets back? Pack up my 4 kids and do what, exactly? Get a hotel? For a day? A week?

I feel like this is going to make me go crazy!

Gdar - it seems like you're doing the best you can. You're nearly in Plan A. You know that Plan A is unsustainable for a long period of time right? What I meant by my statement is you can do that as much as you want, but at some point your husband HAS to get on board. You become the best wife you can because it is the right thing to do. However, you cannot put up with his neglect and abuse indefinitely or you will go insane. You cannot be the perfect wife against his abuse for long. You do the best you can, if he refuses to accompany you there, for your own health and sanity you MUST disengage.

You see how he manipulates you? You ARE doing pretty good (I think you have some LBs you need to work out - get the book and seriously work on it hardcore). But when responsibility begins to weigh on him the turns it in to your fault.

Going out with the guys - when your marriage is falling apart.... sorry you don't get to do that when you're married.

Kissing your wife's friend and suggesting a threesome .... sorry you don't get to do that when your married.

Emotional relationship with a woman not your wife .... sorry you don't get to do that when you're married.

Somehow he's managed to turn all these things and everything is your fault.

How do you break the cycle? By standing up for yourself and your marriage. You set your standards for your marriage sky high and you if he doesn't reach the bar, you let him know you will settle for no less, and you back that up with ACTION.

I agree with CWMI - you got to lose the marriage at all costs attitude, or you gotta accept that this is how it is, and settle for it, no more complaining... one or the other.

Thanks, Vib. I know you are busy and I appreciate all of your input SO much.

By encouraging him to be the best godly husband he can be. And not settling for less from him. That's how.

You are worthless as a wife if you muzzle yourself out of fear. There's a great post from way back about the roles of husbands and wives, taken from the bible, so I hope that's okay for you. Here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2176651&page=1

You don't pack up and leave with the kids- you just change the locks and set him an over night bag on the front porch. Tell him he can come back when he feels like acting like a married man.

When he comes back, lay out your boundaries for what it will take for you to stay in this marriage. Set the bar high.

Also, if I try and bring up examples of my trust issues and why I have them, he says that I am digging up the past and using to make my points NOW. I have read here to let the past go, but the past is what has formed our PRESENT.

We are not at all religious, but thank you. This is the link that ChrisNova just brought back from the dead with its disparities, I believe.

I'm pullin for you G - I've got to take off and probably won't be able to get on again for a while.

Please, please, please think about what we're saying. What do you want? What are you willing to do to get that? Will what you are willing to do get you what you want? If not, then what do you have to do to get what you want?

No! If he goes away with his friend next weekend, he takes all his stuff with him and doesn't come back unless and until he is ready to commit to no overnights, ever. You change the locks. You shut off the phone. You give him a plan B letter telling him exactly how he can come home, and who he can contact instead of you (a liason who will only allow pertinent information about the kids to get through).

Interestingly enough, he does not even have a key to the house. He loaned it to a neighbor and the guy lost it. It is my fault, however, that he does not have a replacement key, because I never went and made a copy FOR HIM. Ha! I have a boundary surrounding that! WAHOO! I told him if he wanted another key, then he was plenty capable of getting it taken care of. It has been over a year and he still does not have a key. I refuse to do it.

He will just bang on the doors and make a huge stink. Do I want my kids to see that? No. My kids will cry and try and open the door!!!

My mom used to lock my dad out of the house ALL OF THE TIME (now realizing she was enforcing a boundary, but as a kid I thought she was terribly cruel). My dad would come home and yell at the door for her to let him in and she would hold me back while I cried and begged her to let him in.

I just cannot do that to my children.

Well, if he knows this is what I will do, then he will not go on the overnight, I know that much. He has canceled them before because I was so UNHappy about it. But that is why he is so resentful of me, because he sees me not "letting him". He will not pack up his stuff and go to his friends house if he knows I won't let him back in when he comes home.

Then you tell him if he comes banging, you're calling the police. Put it in the letter. He's a principal, he won't risk a police report, will he?

You KNOW I will not do this, right? I am telling you as much.

Ok, again, I would really like help in crafting a reply. He wants to talk about this tonight when he comes home from work. Meaning, he wants me to agree to his overnight.

I would like to have some sort of talking points mapped out to help me through this.

Then he's made a choice! Congrats! Look at all this time you have together now.

I told you...straight from the book of Waaaa...he'll get over it. Make the weekend fun.

If he's still pouty a week or two later, remind him that you will not tolerate being treated poorly for HIS choices. If he chose to live with his wife and family instead of hanging out in a garage, it was his choice.

CWMI, but he won't feel like he made a choice, he will feel forced and will resent me more, however fun I make it or not. We just went though this 3 weeks ago when he wanted to go overnight while he had MONO. He was "too sick" to help out with anything family oriented, but wanted to see his friend. When I told him I would not feel comfortable with him going drinking with having mono, he ignored me most of the weekend and then told me he was cooking for me (He BBQs a lot and the meat is on the grill for several hours, but it is not like he has to BE standing over, watching it cook) me, "so sorry I am making you a nice dinner". He totally checked out and sulked and the weekend sucked.

Hour and a half til he gets home. I do want to effectively have this talk with him, but I am afraid I will fail. Pooo. I cannot believe what these past 2 years of turned me into! Gah!

Well, he came home, made 3 comments in a row how hungry he was, as again today, he did not take the time to eat lunch. Dinner was in the works, but only about half way done when he got home. Snipped at me and told me to "relax" when he jumped in and tried to get things going faster (but in a take over kind of way, not a helpful way, as he was clearly stressed out). I was in no way needed to relax, and was not acting like I needed to. So I said "I was not aware I needed to relax", when I should NOT have said anything at all. I was trying to get dinner ready for everyone and that put a damper on my efforts.

He dished himself up a plate first and sat down and started to eat. He looked up and saw me plating up dinner for the 4 kids, so he said "do you want me to get a plate for the baby", so I said yes and thanked him.

Sat through a completely silent dinner (from my H). He did not say a single word other than "I am so tired". Finished before the rest of us, got up and went into our bedroom, laid down on the bed and started texting a friend. Two HUGE HUGE HUGE LB for me. Both sitting through a dinner where he does not engage and stares down at his plate AND when he texts during our time - when the only family time he could have tonight short, as he had to return to work 45 minutes after he got home.

So, what I do when he texts and it upsets me, I leave the room he is in. I refuse to be around it, he knows it bothers me, yet he continues to do it. At least when I am not in the room watching him, I can focus on other things. He came back out while I was sitting at the dinner table while the 4 and 2 yr old were finishing up their dinner. He plops down in a chair and puts his head on the table and groans "I am so tired".

So that means during the 45 minutes he was home, I heard "I am so hungry" 3x and "I am so tired" twice. Not much else. Not how was your day, not how are the kids. The older 2 wanted to go back to school with him for the concert, and I welcomed that. So they left.

No time to "talk" obviously and I feel pretty set up with how tired he says he is, to avoid the discussion this evening, as well.

aaaand he just text me, asking me if I have silence (the younger 2s bed time and he took the older 2) and "I am so tired".

I feel he is asking for a thank you, so I will give him another one.

K, thanked him.

Texts that he is looking forward to this weekend (some sunshine in our forecast FINALLY), though it also stresses him out because he is that much closer to NEXT week, which he has already dubbed the week from hell. The last week of school. We do not have any plans, so I was not sure what he was referring to. Last weekend when we had our BBQ, one of my closest friends said she was fully expecting at least my presence, at her daughter's graduation get together this coming Saturday. I have known her since she was 4. My friend made a point of saying this in front of my H, that it was IMPORTANT to her that I (or we) attend. I know that H does not really want to go, so I asked if he was interested in going for an hour-ish. His reply "whatever you want". Since I cannot decipher tone via text (usually the comment above means he will do whatever I say, because he feels he cannot do what he wants anyway, so why bother - is it a DJ is this is how it has happened in the past?) I told him we could talk about it later. Then he text again, whatever you want to do is fine.

Ok.

I best make it enjoyable, then!

I just reread his email from before. He DID say that if I come up with perimeters in regards to the time with his friends, he will follow them. I think I missed that, and everyone else missed that. That help a bit. I need to come up with those. Again. I wonder how we can get it to stick?

Gdar, have you gone back and re-read this thread?

You have been in denial to varying degrees throughout about several serious issues...I think just this morning you were saying you didn't know if you should be posting here because the A was two years ago and there has been nothing since.

Huh?

He made out with your friend and asked you to have a 3some!!

He doesn't have EPs in place. He isn't transparent.

He wants overnight drinking outings and basically gaslights you when you ask him not to do this.

The one that really bothers me: he wants you to go with him to a conference where OW will be? She will be coming into his school and he withholds this info from you? This makes me sick to my stomach. If my H did this one thing to me (never mind all the other things), I would be Lovebustering all over the place and no book or advice on a message board would be able to help me.

He is still wayward, selfish and entitled.

Stop looking for a bandaid to put on the problem. Yes, you need to work on boundaries....but make just one for now ~ that your H coach with Steve and see if he can't get him onboard.

I feel sad for you. Sometimes we women fall in love with a man and gradually over the years he disrespects us more and more and more until in order to stay with him, we have to completely ignore our own needs and we basically have to stop respecting and loving our own selves.

How can you love this man who is treating you badly? How can you accept his behavior?

You have a dillema.

1. You dont want to lay the rules down LIKE HIS MOTHER because you do not want to have to step into that role.

2. You do not want to go along with everything he wants, his over night drinking parties with friends, being the babysitter while he travels, his flirting with other women and getting ego stroked by them every day, etc.

3. You have lost the ability to set and keep boundaries..

4. You have two young kids so you are committed even though he is disrespecting you daily and you are trying in vain to please him again and again. You are almost groveling for crumbs of his affection and some crumbs of respect.

I feel this way. He never wanted kids, you had some. He did not want your kids, you brought them. Maybe you feel you owe him for all this and for supporting all of you. You may not like what he does but if you feel you owe him then the imbalance will be there and will cause all kinds of problems.

For example if you had kids he did not want and brought stepkids he does not really want for him to support, then maybe him expecting you to take that puppy out to pee was normal, a normal act for the BIG BARGAIN you have made when you entered the marriage.

Look at who has the power in the relationship
Do you feel you have brought so much heavy baggage to the marriage that you have to put up with his bad behavior.>

Gdar, I agree with SusieQ. I don't understand why you are choosing to live like this. You have become a volunteer for all this by choosing to not have even the least of boundaries. It has been years and there is not the slightest hint of recovery. Nothing. You have lowered the bar so low that your H is simply living down to your expectations.

Talking a problem to death instead of focusing on implementing the program in its entirety is a distraction from the main problem.

It is waste of time to come here and ask people for talking points about some individual dilemma when the problem is that your marriage needs a drastic overhaul. You are discussing the peeling paint in the girls bathroom on the sinking Titanic. Pretty soon there won't be a girls bathroom to worry about if you don't right the ship.


Ever heard of Marriage Builders? Its a really good program that some of us here have used to recover our marriages. Why have you never used it?

Instead of fiddling around the edges, how about trying the program in its entirety?

Gdar, I was thinking something similar, but if I can't say something nice, why say it at all? I'm glad these folks did find a nice way to say it. That it would be nice if we all brainstormed words together that felt like nice words and felt like he would try to back off on the hurting you until it was back at the level you've become accustomed to again.

But that's not the fullness of what I want for you, to dial back the pain to a tolerable level again, like your first go-round here. I want for you the MB marriage, one where you two fall more and more back in love with each other, with all Four Rules for a Successful Marriage in place, Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty. Are these exactly what you're asking for, a list of guidelines that you can be excited to share with your H, something that is a freedom to become best friends with you in a way his buddy could never provide.

Your H may well respond as you posted yesterday. That's okay, it's a moment in time.


How would you feel about giving this a real shot, letting the MB plan heal your marriage, as it has so many others? What outside support would you be willing to get to help you and your H?

Well. Gdar, you wanted more input, you got it!
The advice is more blunt here, but it is honest!

Looks like you have a lot of thinking to do.

How is all this hitting ya?