Sorry to hear about your painful situation. YOu mentioned your husband has childhood issues. Go to **edit** it sounds to me like you may be able to get some answers there. Good luck.

Hi 77.

You're right--it isn't fair. Most of what shows up on this menu isn't fair at all, and you got a supersized meal. It's really damaging that you KNOW what he's doing day to day. AND that you are giving him full power to come back, knowing that if he does, it will be--as always--on his hurtful terms.

I really get that at our age, rebuilding a life from scratch feels impossible. I do. Facing that at 58, I had NO idea how to do it. I wanted to believe my H wasn't the cold-hearted monster he appeared to be. It took a couple of years of pure hell, but he came around. From all you've said of your H, it just doesn't seem he wants to be "redeemed." And that makes all the difference.

He continues to hurt you, to show no regard for anything but himself. What makes you think if he deigns to "come back" on May 17th that your life with him would be any different? Has he shown ANY signs of caring? Of remorse?

If not, I'd say your only hope is a solid, dark Plan B. Have nothing to do with him and spare yourself the additional pain of hearing about all the "fun" he's having. It only adds to your misery and keeps you chained.

But most of all, it keeps you believing that you are defective and unworthy. NOT TRUE! It is his behavior and attitudes that are defective and unworthy. Do NOT let the actions of a sadistic, selfish, broken man define you. Pray for him, but do not let him destroy your soul.

And for God's sake, do not let him back into your home in his present state (which may indeed be his permanent state).

You, YOU 77, are a wonderful creation of God. Good, and beautiful, precious and worthy. Trust HIM to lead you to a new life, to TRUTH, not an acceptance of the lies your H has made of your life.

That is what I pray for you.

((((77))))

RHW

Yes, it is hard to know what he's doing.

Last night I was checking a friend on Facebook. She was jubilating that she had a new garden box and wondered what to plant.

As I was getting ready to make suggestions, I noticed pictures and more comments by her celebrating how her "Papa" made it for her, how wonderful he is because he loves her, etc.

That "papa" turned out to be my husband.

She and her husband have been our friends for years. They are the ones who encouraged us to attend the weeklong marriage seminar that changed their marriage. They want to see our marriage restored,

BUT - why does she call him her papa- trigger - that's what he started out as for the OW.

Will he always be doing "rescue" work and good deeds for other, younger women? Is that the only way he can feel good about himself because I am so toxic for him?

Gosh, I hate how IT always flies up in my face, especially when I am feeling "OK" for a bit.

As for going completely dark, not possible as he still pays the bills and wants things kept as normal as possible because nothing has been decided.

Plus, I have two adult children who do mention him and their doings with him occasionally .

As far as "coming back", I actually worked with my counselor on a list of questions to ask him that will determine what he has decided or wants to do.

No way would he come back and live without a gradual courting, if you will. NOT that I expect him to want to "court" or "woo" me. But if he were interested in attempting a relationship with me , it would be gradual and in public for awhile. We would not be living together while this took place. Enough fakery. He would have to WANT to live with me for no other reason that to be with me ( not to save face, keep the family together, spare the kids, etc.)

I don't expect him to be able to say anything definite in May, just not his modus operandi . Usually it's, I can't decide, need more time, haven't gotten to "it" yet, etc.

If anything, he will decide he likes freedom from me and the independent behavior of doing what he wants when he wants.

It is hard not to feel so little about myself since anyone else is more attractive to him - even a dysfunctional, melancholy, huge hipped, sexually messed up girl!

It is hard not to feel like an old dishrag when younger women are where my husband looks for his kicks.

My counselor is working to lead me into TRUTH about who I am, but, I feel, gets discouraged with me because I can't bounce back from the feelings he has created in me with his life and actions that my whole life with him has been a lie, that I am completely undesirable and a second class citizen. I feel like he and OW have this laughing secret about how pathetic I am.

And that he is only able to engage young fit women who can "play" with him. Sometimes I think his obsession with appearing fit and strong is a boyish immature desire to try to keep his youth. He wants to prove he is just as strong, fit and has the stamina of men half his age. I guess if you are trying to catch the attention of a younger woman, that would be a motivation.

I am trying and dealing with myself and my messed up image all day, everyday.j

I feel people will get tired and worn out with my state- enough, already! - but those things can't change overnight - after a 33 year marriage.

This is harder than a death - because he's still alive, therefore, still a relationship that must be addressed.

Thanks for your encouragement, I get more people telling me all the good things you say, but why do all those encouragements not matter if they're not from the one important person in my life - my husband?

I wish someone had a fairydust wand to zap me with and change my brain!

Myname11, I will check your website, thanks. But, he has to want to change or at least investigate things himself.

77, I have always wondered what this meant, in your signature:


"OW - "daughter" added to family 1/05 for "Fathering healing" - 25 years younger"

I was trying to figure out what fathering healing entailed. And now, reading this in your post, I wonder even more:

A couple of things could be going on with him. He could have the Knight in Shining Armor syndrome, where he feels power and satisfaction in rescuing someone. And the aggravating thing about living with the Knight is that he can only get that satisfaction when helping others; doing good and noble deeds for his family is just sort of expected, and he doesn't get the applause and admiration that he gets from outside the family.

Another thought is that he may orient as a Daddy; in the BDSM world, this is someone who gets pleasure being in the father or benefactor role to an adult who holds the role as dependent and helpless daughter. A lot of these Daddy/daughter lifestyles (not to be confused with incest, which is a whole different kettle of fish) don't involve sex, they just cater to the needs of the ones involved. He would probably be flabbergasted to have his feelings and actions likened to a BDSM lifestyle, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.

In either situation, it is usually to the detriment of his real family when his attention and concern are focused on others.

I hope you won't find my questions offensive, I was just wondering if any of this seems likely to you.

Ellen, I believe you are correct. Knight in Shining Armour.

My husband has feels he cannot please me and doesn't get the affirmation he needs. Mostly this is because of his passive aggressive behavior towards me ( "I'll do it", then "I forgot", or nothing ever happens), so of course he does not get alot of praise from me for messing up, forgetting, etc.

He started with "rescuing" his secretary after her suicide attempt (father wanted her to marry her cousin and live in the family compound.) He gave her away at her wedding instead of her real father.

Moved on to interest in other women under wraps (which I learned about after DDay.)

The ultimate was bringing the OW into our home as a "daughter" wanting to help her, but having attraction towards her and believing he could keep it under control.

He couldn't.

He has worked harder to regain the trust of the other "daughters" in our life (two are married) after his A was exposed than he has cared about his marriage.

Yes, it seems he feels good helping/rescuing other needy women -- anyone outside of his family.

We have an adopted daughter with rejection issues about her birth father who really needed affirmation, love and interaction. My husband abandoned her, her sister and myself in order to "help" this young woman he brought into our home.

He felt like it would be fun having her here and a vacation from having to be married to me.

It was.

Until it blew up in his face.

But, seems he continues in the same pattern.

These are the things I would like to see him discover and address in therapy. But, who knows what he is doing right now.

Hands off.

Just hard to continue to see it, even when I am not looking.

I believe you are right. I will read up on BDSM.

Thanks, 77

Yes, he will always be doing "rescue work" with dumsels in distress, but NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOXIC. I don't know anything about what Ellen suggested, but if I had to guess what's toxic, I'd say it's his narcissism that's stripping YOU of your self esteem, happiness and health. Ask your IC how narcissists operate, and what happens to the people who love them.

This absolutely blows me away: your going dark is "not possible as he still pays the bills and wants things kept as normal as possible because nothing has been decided."

What? He wants things as "normal as possible?" For WHOM????? This "normalcy" serves him, but is destroying you. Even as he is romancing yet another woman!

And you think you have no say in the matter. Any judge in the world would disagree. Why have you not seen a lawyer? Even a legal separation would require that he continue to pay the bills.

You could indeed go dark, and simply ask your daughters not to convey information about what Dad is doing--tell them it is your attempt to protect yourself for now. They'd probably be relieved to get out of the middle.

I absolutely agree that what you're living is worse than death, because he's still alive--AND calling ALL the shots. And you are not addressing it in any way except to go along with whatever he wants. Why?

What will it take, I wonder, for you to handle YOUR side differently and break this stranglehold? Might be a good idea to Ask your IC that.

It is so painful to watch you permit this eternal suffering. It really breaks my heart.

Been moving daughters home from college.

Saw the friend put her arms around my H's waist and hug.
Heard him ask if the 20 something daughter was going running with him.

All the same behavior as before. I'm sure neither he nor them recognizes the lack of boundaries and feels nothing is untoward -- but why not?

Awash in boxes, piles and rock music and feeling discombobulated.

When yesterday my 19 year old-just-completed- freshman-year-of-college daughter told me she had gone with some friends to a party to drink with guys she didn't know.

Told them she was not interested in sex as she was a virgin.
One guy plied her with drink until no resistance, then he raped her.

She was afraid to tell us as we might pull her from school.

Her sister found out 3 days later (the "friends" she was with didn't want her to talk to people so they wouldn't get in trouble for drinking (underage and forbidden at her University) and pushed her to talk to her RA, go to the clinic and campus police.

My victim daughter did the typical, didn't want the rape test kit or city police report because she wanted it to be "over" so the jerk (whose last name she doesn't even know) can continue to prey on virgins.

I'm a pissed and grieving mom.

Her dad doesn't know yet.

He told me last week we need to get together to decide what to do next (our 3 month trial separation expires on Mon.)

So now I get to face the "talk" and have to decide if it gets derailed to discuss our daughter's situation or wait until I know better how to handle it with my H.

I would like to speak with my therapist and possibly my daughter's therapist before I have to tell my H.

Somehow I get the picture in my mind of him just sitting there without comment, as usual.

What would have to happen for him to show any concern over anything with his family - ever?

Yes, I know I am being negative. When is it OK to be justified?

Ugh. How awful. For DD, and for you. I am so sorry. I do hope her therapist can help her work through this. She will need your love and support so much in the months ahead.

Have you (or she) told your H about yet? How did he react? I'm sure this complicated the talk about whether to stay with the marriage or give it up. I'm guessing that if this news broke, you have delayed the decision about the marriage and focused on your DD. That might be for the best--how many big nightmares can anyone deal with at once?

How are things going at the moment?

To avoid some harsh decision in married life, every one should try out couple Counseling if your are moving towards getting separate.

And this link applies to this poster's situation HOW?

Took my daughters away for a week. Everything was just too much.

Hesitant to start posting. Alot to describe.

I got blasted alot on another site when I freely expressed my frustration about my daughter's CHOICES which put her in the position for the possibility of rape.

Had a meeting with H on May 17 to discuss our next step with the marriage, but knew I would have to tell him about the rape, which would put the marriage on the back burner.

Marriage: he admitted that he did not know he had been committing adultery all through our marriage with his fantasies of other women during sex.

I was surprised. After going to Every Man's Battle, counseling with Steve Harley and the pastor, he didn't before now know that?

He told me he DID know the entire time he was committing adultery with the OW, this despite telling me he was "fathering" and felt he could keep some "conflicted" feelings under control earlier.

He said I had said not to stay married just for the sake of the kids, therefore the same argument should apply to not staying married for the sake of the Lord.

The only reason to stay married was if he "cherished" me which he never has.

(So what was his reason for staying married during the 33 years of "not cherishing" me before the A?)

BUT, he could not say out loud that we should get a divorce. I kept trying different ways to get a decision out of him:

What do you want to do?
I don't know.

Do you want to write a new separation agreement?
I don't know.

Do you want to make a decision?
I don't know.

Finally, another approach:

How or where do you see yourself one year from now?
Adjusted to single life.

Nothing happened so I moved on to the rape.

No facial or body expressions.
He said, "I'm sorry. What should I do? Would she talk to me?"

Called the next morning with "We need to decide how to parent over the rape." and wanted to meet with me right then.

Seems this moved him out of passivity.

So now we have 2 issues on the plate about the rape:

1. the rape itself and our daughter's and family's recovery.

H wants her to pursue charging the rapist so she doesn't become a people pleaser like him and make poor choices to negatively affect her life like he did. (implied: stayed in relationship with me, who he didn't want and who has made his life miserable.)

2. the broken agreement and trust we set up in order to finance her college education: grades, law abiding, managing her money, church attendance, respect for parents.

She has broken all of them except grades and tried to keep the violations hidden.

Now we have to discuss what we are willing or unwilling to do for her next year given the broken trust.

None of this has to do with the rape. The trust/agreement was broken before the rape. The rape just brought it all to light.

But, we have been counseled to not address the rape and the violations together. They must be kept separate, preferably discussed on different days. Survivors will believe they are being "punished" for the rape when anything is put in place that they don't like.

We have to reduce her access to $$ and let her carry more of the load to learn to budget the "too generous" gift from her grandfather which she has fittered away on frivolities.

Despite breaking her agreement with us, she is continuing along in the behaviors that violate the agreement, believing we will bankroll and enable such to continue.

This is what we must deal with and she will have a rude awakening.

To avoid causing further hurt to her, we decided to see about having the discussion with her in the presence of her counselor so she could feel safe and have an advocate.

We called the counselor to see if this was possible or recommended. The counselor called our daughter to ask if she was willing to do so. She came raging into my room demanding to know why we didn't ask her and why we had to involve a "middleman" and what did we want to talk about, and did I tell Dad to call the counselor? (because she knows from the past that Dad doesn't act on his own)

Very mad at me, wanting to know WHAT we wanted to talk about.

I had to explain over and over that it was an attempt to talk in a safe environment for her, but we could do it without her counselor if she wanted.

I understand her feeling disrespected by asking the counselor first - but we were counseled to do so and see if the counselor would meet with us before suggesting it to our daughter.

We spent 2 hours with a family counselor and 2 hours with a rape crisis family support counselor yesterday all in an attempt to do the right thing by our daughter.

I was exhausted at the end of the day. Yet, it appears we did it wrong.

She called her dad to vent about how angry she was at me (He placed the call, but remember, to her thinking and past experience, I made it happen.)

He apologized and asked if meeting was still a possibility. She said yes. But, we have still not heard from the counselor.

My frustration is that after all the counsel we received yesterday about keeping the rape and the broken trust issues separate, my H started to write out what he wanted to say to our daughter (he feels more comfortable reading and speaking).
He started with how sorry, etc.,etc. about the rape, a crime was committed against you, you are not at fault, you are love, etc. and then began the "however" because you violated the behavior standards you agreed to, you got raped.

I tried to point out how that was EXACTLY what the 2 counselors said NOT to do. Don't link them. He didn't get it. He said the rape talk was to segue into the broken trust talk. I said, again, they are NOT to be discussed at the same time.

Where is his brain? All the frustrations of working with him to decide anything came flooding back and I hated being, once again, in the "teacher, mother," role of trying to explain to him what he'd just spend 4 hours paying people to tell him.

I left at the end of that night feeling like I have no way to relate to this guy.

Reinforced was the short talk we had yesterday about our marriage wherein he said nothing had changed for him since the separation began.

He didn't remember saying to me what he said on May 17 that I took as a basis for how to assess my marriage now.

I'm making decisions in my heart based on what he said to me that night and now he doesn't remember any of it.

Today the OW got married.

My husband was not "the love of her life".

He was crushed to hear she was getting married even tho she had broken it off and had NC (one slip) since Jan. 08, and said he knew he couldn't hope for a life with her.

It was hard for me today.

While you will all jump in and tell me to move on, he's not worth it, feeling this way won't help you or your girls, etc.....

I still am jealous. Jealous that despite being a screwed up promiscuous, dysfunctional girl -- my husband preferred her over me.

Jealous that despite having a reputation for and history of sleeping with countless men -- she now gets to marry a man who loves her. She gets to start her married life with someone who wants her---I never did.

Jealous that she gets to look forward to a life with a lover, children and a loving family -- but she left me without a husband, broken children and a broken, hurting family.

She gets everything I should have.

I get nothing I should have --because of her.

Is it alright to feel this way today, the day she gets married?

Can you give me that?

You feel how you feel. I've never been one to believe that feelings are either right or wrong. They just are.

I can totally understand your feeling what you are feeling. Big hugs to you.

You feel jealous. It's a feeling, and I understand why you feel jealous. No one could tell you that you "shouldn't" feel that way.

I will, however, argue with some of your other statements.

"She gets everything I should have...I get nothing I should have--because of her."

I think you're missing something big here. If she is as you have described, her marriage will NOT be one to envy, believe me. She will mess it up, and hurt other people in the process. But that isn't the point.

The real point is that, even had she never entered your life, you would not have the marriage you wanted. Your H has proven lousy marriage material. He has treated you horribly for YEARS, for the whole marriage, if your earlier posts are truthful, and I believe they ARE. He has been sadistic, cruel, dismissive, and just plain selfish. He is still that way today. And in all this time, he has given you no reason to believe he will ever change. Why should he? He knows you want him back anyway!

I am sorry you have lost so many years to this emotional meat grinder.

I hope you are not so damaged as to remain unable to pull yourself away from him and never look back.

I pray you will find a way to bring life and goodness to your remaining years.

I fear my prayers will go unanswered.

I am sorry for all your pain...

Jealousy is an awful feeling. It's been a year since I found out about the OW and I'm still jealous, but it does get better. Hang in there. Because you ARE better off without him. You know that already, but like all of us, pepper those facts with thoughts of "Why couldn't he just do/feel/act that way with me instead of her?" or "If only he..." "Then we could have made it."

These feeling ARE natural. But they don't help. Changing your internal dialog is tough when you have a broken heart. But once you can, the world will be yours again.

Let him be crushed. He deserves it. Don't you dare look for more pain from the situation because he is crushed over OW. He destroyed his life on a smokescreen and deserves to suffer the consequences now that it has crashed and burned. It has nothing to do with you as a quality person.

I have been gone for several days to a conference.

I am struggling now with the fulltime job it is for me AND my daughter to maintain our property. I can't do alot of things that need more strength, or stamina than I have. Seasonal chores, maintenance chores, breakdowns, etc. My husband doesn't want me to spend too much money. I explained the needs and how even my daughter is seeing things that need doing that he deferred or never saw and so doesn't understand that $$ is needed to fix.

Then there is the house and cooking, laundry and cleaning.

Then I am suppose to be "moving on" and finding what I WANT to do, reinventing myself, so to speak, take classes, get a job, etc.

Just outside is full time work.

Just inside is full time work.

Grieving, managing the many moods and trying to look for what it is I am suppose to be doing, is full time work.

Seeking God and trying to find and stay in His Presence is full time work.

I succeed at none.

Rightthere: I do not necessarily "want him back". I want a marriage that honors God - he is not willing to have that with me.

I am sad, grieving and depressed that the enemy is winning and I am made to feel by my husband to be less than human, less than normal, dysfunctional, because I'm not willing to accept nothing as a marriage.

I depend on him to support me and should have been able to the rest of my life. I worked to build a home, family and 2 businesses with him.

I don't necessarily want HIM back, but I want to honor my marriage commitment. Doing that right now seems to mean I am hung out to dry indefinitely while he "can't decide what to do."

He's not with me, but he has absolute financial power over me.

Don't tell me to go get a job - there aren't any out there to support me. I have been advised NOT to try and make money and support myself NOW as it will diminish my ability to collect alimony as a long term wife and stay at home mom.

I am tired to being told platitudes.

I am tired of being told that expressing these feelings is "doing me no good."

I am tired of trying to rise above these feelings, look for distractions to keep me from dealing with the reality of my life.

Why in other situations do we encourage people to embrace the pain, let themselves feel it, seek help to process through it, but with adultery we are told to look for distractions?

Whenever I open up my depressed side, I tend to get blasted.

As far as the OW having a marriage she will mess up - I don't know. I know she got help for her sexual problem. I know all therapy was directed at helping her heal, not deal with the mess she created.

She is probably feeling like she is in a good spot right now. She will probably have a good marriage. She learned from seeing ours what not to do.

But, when it comes to us, she believes she was the victim of a predator (my H) and she did not have much to do with it, despite her initiation of sex with him.

I have learned that when people who warned her that she was being inappropriate with my husband ask her now how she is doing, they are told that they "gossip." Nothing said to reveal the truth is what she wants.

I'm trying, but I'm feeling held hostage by my husband because I place more importance on fidelity and commitment than he.

77,
I haven't been around for months. So, I can tell what I have noticed has changed. NOTHING. You are entitled to your feelings. But, you are drowning in them. You have been drowning in them for years. You refuse to swim to the shore. You make mention of your age often. Your body is aging. You don't have much time left (my grama is 89 years old and fit as a fiddle but that is another story).

Realistically, you probably have another 10-20 good years left if you are lucky. This depression will kill you.

So, now that you have felt your feelings and feel good and sorry for yourself, what are you going to DO?

What would you tell your daughter if she were married to a man that hated her and abused her for years? Don't blame this on religion either because my bible allows divorce in situations of infidelity.

What have you told your poor daughter that was raped? I hope you didn't tell her that it was her fault because she went to a party and drank. It wasn't a great choice but she did not deserve to lose her virginity that way.

I understand that this is hard. Bad things have happened. We all understand that things are not fun for you. Life is hard. You are giving up.

Your husband has left and controls the money. He sees himself adjusted to being single within a year. He has a great time without you. He vacations and travels. He flirts with his daughter's friends. He is quiet around you because he is happier away and probably feels guilty. He probably just wants to be somewhere else. You have your feelings and your ideals. You doggedly cling to your pain and self-pity.

Is this what you want? Will you spend the next 10 years wallowing? What are you teaching your daughters? Martyrdom?

I know that you feel blasted. I know that I am harsh and I am sorry if I cause you any additional pain. I am harsh because it is a waste. It doesn't have to be this hard. You make it harder than it needs to be. You can stay married until you die if you wish and still find joy in each day - without your cheating, unloving, abusive husband. People separate and live happy lives. It can be done. You can't make your husband do or be anything that he is unwilling to be.

OK, my two best counselors have responded.

What is the action you are encouraging me to take?

Are you saying I should file?

If you were here and shook me and said, "....." what would that be?

About my daughter's rape. I have told her what happened to her was wrong. A crime was committed against her. I am very sorry. I want to help her recover, etc. She says, "yeah, yeah." and dismisses me.

Thanks, 77

Thanks for the compliment, 77. I have tried to put myself in your place. I have felt your pain. It kills me to see you allowing it to continue. I don't know about Stillstanding, but what I'm saying is, yes, I think you should file. And I am 100% pro marriage. When marriage is unending and deliberate torture, I am 100% for breaking away from the abuse. So is Dr. Harley, a far better advisor than any of us here could be.

Since your husband has made it clear he doesn't want the marriage, of course he should be the one to file. But as you've seen in so many ways over the years, he has never been about taking difficult, responsible steps--he leaves that to you.


If I could be there, I would put my hands on your shoulders, look you in the eye, and say, "You are worth so much more than you have been offered in this marriage. Your husband has been abusing you for years. You are an abused wife. He has no motivation to stop the abuse. Only you can do it. PLEASE do it. File."

And stay here as you go through it. We will be here.