I would suggest that you put him on 'ignore.' He is of little help when it comes to killing and A.

Huhhh?

I find Helpthelostdads one of the most straightforward and level-headed posters on here.

You are 29 and with no kids.

I would expose and then go Plan B.

Orb,

How are things going today? Did you deliver the exposure letters to her work?

Helllooooo Orbbbbb? How goes it?

Thanks schtoop.

I can come off as abrasive, but it's not my intent. The greatest gift a BS can give him/herself is the realization that they certainly deserve better and that they must not tolerate one bit of their WS's behavior. Getting to that point is liberating.

It is also what ironically makes the BS more attractive.

I don't have an inconsistent philosophy:

No kids + cheating = no loss. Bail. Leave the cheater and find someone better.

Kids alter the equation.

Orb, you're a young man. This woman sounds immature. You CAN do better.

I respect your feelings and desire to save things. I'm offering the advice as a man who has been in your shoes.

Marriage + cheating = loss. That, gentlemen, is the bottom line. Kids are NOT currency in this! The loss is no worse if a BS didn't have children with their WS! This is why I say to ignore htld! Your M is NOT incumbent on having spawn! OMG, htld, chill OUT!

You didn't trade your Holy Vows depending on whether or not you would have children!

htld - you aren't in his shoes! OY VEY!

schoopt, what are you THINKING???

I fully recovered my marriage and I am quite happy. However, I had been married for 30 years and had five children.

As a BH I initially wanted a divorce, but realized it is difficult to throw away 30 years. Furthermore, we had a good marriage.

I see the point of not trying to recover a marriage with no children when the BS is quite young. I understand the vows are the same, but at a young age and with no children there is ample opportunity to find happiness with someone else.

Stop it, Stan-ley. The vows aren't worth more with age.

While I can agree that vows are not worth more with age, the potential of bringing children into this already dysfunctional marriage is of paramount concern. OP is at an age where he can find a women who would be a much better mother material than his current wife. Those of us who have kids know that a marriage goes through orders of magnitude of stress when those bundles of joy are brought in. If op's wife is not faithful in the easy times, what is to say what she would do in the difficult child rearing years. My opinion is that OP should weight these future considerations and the potential harm it could inflict if he wants children and his current wife is a serial adulterer.

I'm sorry for the long delay. Therapy caught me off guard and I'm likely very depressed right now.

The Short Update
Last Tuesday morning we had a counseling session through my employee benefits program. It was an hour and went much like I'd imagined counseling would go; largely uneventful.

One and a half hours later we had a 2 hour session with Lynn from Marriage Matters. She asked, listened, and by then end told me that I'm a sex addict and my wife is probably a full-blown relationship addict. (She was incredibly kind and insightful throughout the entire session). Also that we are both from very dysfunctional families; which once she described it, was the truest thing I'd ever heard and pinpointed a lot of things I'd only partly discovered in recent years. I'm not going into that part though.

So I'm a Sex Addict
I responded immediately with a positive sounding "OK". As revealed to her, I've looked at porno. In fact, depending on my wife being in town, her willingness to help out, or if I've had a bad day I've turned to porno quiet often. It varies greatly. Probably averaging once a week or two in recent months. The primary issue being that I use that to self medicate and it will escalate. Despite the de-escalation from my early single days. I fully appreciate her analysis in this area, have stopped, and I don't believe it will be difficult to never seek porno again (unless I'm being naive).
Oh, I'm likely also be depressed, but I sort of knew that at the time.

She's a Relationship Addict
Not surprising. Since age 15, she's barely gone 2 weeks without dating someone. She gets hugely upset when our own dates don't go down like she works up in her mind. She used to get really mad if I tried to plan an evening or guy's trip without her. Co-dependency issues and so on.

The Full Update
After the session we were a little shook up from everything, including the dry drunk families conclusion. I did get a moment to ask what to do about exposure at work. She said to do what I must, but I may want to give my wife a chance to take the correct action herself. Then with a hard look, the kind that makes you feel naked, she told me, "if my wife can't get over her affair/emotions, you don't need this; and that it's not because you don't love her." That struck hard, since loving her has been so difficult and the guilt I seem to inevitably feel.

The rest of the week was spent in marriage classes by night. I took no exposure actions. By that Friday I was talking to my real wife again at times. I've been careful not to spill any sensitive info, but my emotions slip some days. She has continued to cry, mostly in the mornings, and speak of dispair. She's also more socially active than she's ever been before; with friends from work that aren't connected to the OM. I've been a part of a few activities over this 4th of July weekend.

We did talk one morning when she was crying again. She told me that she's often fantasized about me dying. <--- That was awesome to listen to. She also hit her period during this time. Otherwise it was a decent weekend.

Today
Today was the first day back at work from the 4th of July weekend. Her mood was enormously better today before work. Today after work my intuition is that something happened. She was distant, quiet, avoiding eye contact, etc. Now obviously I'm paranoid and everyday she's at work with him, possibly seeing him in the halls, or emailing him, I'm paniked a bit. Maybe I'm wrong, but tonight didn't feel right.

The other problem I'm having is caring. I've spent hours and hours reading Harley's books and am currently on the Surviving an Affair one. My love bank for her is low. Too low at times. I've found myself stop caring more and more. I think about having kids one day and then the fear of this happening again.

I don't want to walk on eggshells forever and feel like I'm constantly competing with every dog that would hit on a married woman. I'm tired and my head hurts. Tomorrow I'm going to the doctor and hoping to get on antidepressants, however long that will take to work. I've started researching divorce a bit. I'm back and forth on my decision to work on this marriage.

I miss loving my wife. I enjoyed loving her. Her mood is so disorienting for me. Perhaps my own is all over the place.

Gotta run. Sorry for any typos.

How long have you been in plan A?

Where to even begin? Maybe with some 2x4s?

You are a cake-eater's dream come true, which is perfect for your WW ~ bad news for you & your M. You are allowing yourself to become distracted with all types of psycobabble and therapy that does nothing...NOTHING...to address the root problem here -----> THE AFFAIR!!!!

Do you understand that an A is an addiction? Can you reason with a crack addict who is still taking hits off the crackpipe? You are in a BS fog & Plan Confusion so even though we have been hammering this point home to you it is unclear to me if you "get" this yet. NOTHING will change until you get NC into place. How do you get NC into place you ask? EXPOSURE. Talk and therapy do not "get through" to a wayward. Exposure does.

I would do the exposure and then get your Plan B lined up if she won't leave the job. BUT I don't think your WW's A is going to last long once you stop enabling her. It sounded earlier like with some pressure (by this I mean exposure!! not more seminars and therapy), she would leave the workplace.

And btw, I'm sorry, if my H told me he fantasized about me dying, I would pack his bags and tell him to go...wayward or not.

HUH? What is this counselor's credentials? She is saying you are both addicts, but that the A is something your wife will just "Get over"

Ok seriously! If you want a good understanding of sexual addiction read this site. Patrick Carnes is the leading author of sexual addiction information and has created this site. He even has a test of whether you are a sex addict or not. http://www.sexhelp.com/
Patrick Carnes is the author I found that helped me understand the levels of sexual addiction and what it is.


The reason I am pointing this out is because my H has a borderline addiction (they can't say yes or no for sure.) And he was way more into porn than you are currently claiming.

Even though the DRs can not give a clear yes or no, we are treating it as if he has an addiction.

Ok Threadjack over.


I am sorry but I highly disagree with the counselor about exposure. I briefly looked at MM website and they are looking to resolve conflict. That is not the issue here. To resolve the A, you need to EXPOSE IT! Playing nice is going to leave you sitting on the sidelines while WW runs off with OM! Listen to those in recovery. Expose the A. Every day she sees OM, her attraction is growing, the fog is growing.

That is why you were able to talk to "your wife" and not the alien of the weekend. OM was out of the picture during that time. The longer OM was out of the picture, the more WW became W again. And why after being back at work with him for one day, she has now withdrawn back into the WW.

YOU MUST GET OM OUT OF THE PICTURE. Expose!!!!!

obr,

I agree with (almost) all the advice you have received but you don't seem willing to take it. I've been there, man! What I thought was an EA was actually physical for more than 3 years! It was only when we finally separated that I got out of my own fog (denial) and realized the truth. I'm back here after a long "vacation" but, trust me, I've been right in your shoes (but I did have kids at the time)

You don't seem to be ready to follow up on the principles presented here so I will give you another option - go straight to Plan B. I completely disagree with the notion that the lack of children means just walk away. Love is a precious and rare thing and giving up simply because there are no children involved would be sad indeed.

So here is what I would do. Pack what you need and move out. Tell your W that you love her dearly and desperately want your marriage to survive, but not at the expense of losing yourself. Tell her you need time alone to think and reflect on how you both got here and you need to get away from the situation for your own mental health. Ask that she not contact you in any way while you are gone. Be loving, but BE STRONG.

Find a place to live, be it a hotel, friend's or family, etc. but have NO CONTACT with your W. Let her experience life without you. Right now she has you and the OM and doesn't see a need to give either up. Give her a chance to miss you and what you have together. This could very well drive her into the OM's arms, but if that happens, it would have happened anyway.

Like I said, I have been in your shoes and I am a man so I may understand you a little better than the ladies here (no offence, ladies - we're just wired a little different). Get out, clear your head, work on you, be all you can be, and then make your decision about where you go from here. I won't lie - it will be tough but you can do it and you have a great support group here to help you out.

Stay Strong.

Sorry if my opinion about kids offends someone, but the vows don't say anything about tolerating adultery.

Yes, we're commanded to forgive. Orb is trying to do that. But it doesn't condemn us to live in a marriage where cheating is a constant problem.

The issues with your wife are DEEP. The fact is that she has fantasy images of what love is and doesn't have any real ideas that are grounded in reality about what love and relationships are.

She sounds like a person who needs constant, never ending attention. I was married to someone like that. It was a nightmare. You'll never meet her romantic expectations.

Is she jealous of the time you spend with family? Do your family visits boil down to you trying to entertain her since she doesn't interact well with your family?

Believe me, the best advice to take from your situation, married with no kids, is to let her go and find a mature woman after you take a hard look at yourself, your standards, and your patterns in meeting women.

Find independent ones that don't need you in any way. There is a balance. You want someone who looks forward to spending time with you, but not one who falls apart if you have plans elsewhere.

And you're not a porn addict or a sex addict. Once or twice a week hardly qualifies.

Actually, it's the opposite for most traditional vows. Those require the two people to affirm that they will forsake all others. That means no adultery.

What the vows don't reference are children. The vows stand alone and should be upheld, regardless of the birth of a child. Children don't make vows more or less sacred.

Agreed, but someone here has violated the vows in the worst way possible.

There's no kids. Why go through the absolute he77 of recovery with someone who is immature and likely to cheat again when there is a perfectly understandable, biblically justifiable reason to divorce?

Love is not enough. There has to be something worth saving and this woman has MASSIVE issues which will lead to huge problems down the road.

No kids + adultery + young marriage = disaster.

Children shouldn't be made a part of this.

Small Update
I missed a few small to big items in my last update.

• She applied to another job doing photography full time, though competition is rough for the company she's going for.
• She did tell, AFAIK, two other women at her office about the situation.
• My brother managed to leak some or most of the story to my parents, which he was supposed to keep to himself.
• I made a comment about her leaving her job again and she told me "Me leaving isn't going to make you feel as good as you think it will".

Most recently
She's been in a good mood for the most part. Though I haven't seen her since this morning. She said she was going to a friend's house to swim and chat after work. There were no plans for how long she'd be gone; I did ask. She's still out now, it's 11:00pm, and I've got to head to bed. I did call her at one point and heard another girl in the room, so I'm inclined to believe her. Still, her being gone all night bugs me. I suppose I feel like I'm putting a lot into reading, setting up counseling, etc and don't get much back.

According to "Surviving an Affair", I shouldn't expect anything. Actually, when you get down to it, the method of surviving an affair kind of sounds like, "Let someone you love trample your heart and trust to death. Hold on, expressing none of the emotions you go throw, and hope for the best. Treat your spouse like a saint during the entire thing. If it works out, try to forget about it for the next 50 or so years.".
Does it read like that for anyone else?

Other small updates

• I'm setting a time limit on this thing. I'm 3 weeks in right now with my feelings all over the board. I can go maybe 2 or 3 months. Perhaps a month for each year to make it more poetic.
• We are going out of town together this weekend. Though she's not helped do any packing... at all.
• I started anti-depressants and immediately stopped. The first dose made me ill. Copious amounts of Ex-lax and heavy drinking might be able to compete.
• I was able to focus and work some this week, which is great news.
• When asked she did tell me that she bumped into the OM in the hall at work and there was an awkward "hey" exchanged.
• One more undeniable instance of them being together and I will use exposure, likely back to back with Plan B. For the past week, I've found nothing definite.

On Divorce
Kind of hate to bring this one up, but I looked into it and it appears to be cheap. We have no kids, no home, one car, two motorcycles, and a small amount in student loan dept. The bigger issues are both our Christian families (esp her's) being of the no-divorce-without-confirmable-sexual-intercourse variety. Her's are especially rigid in this arena. So if it comes down to it, I'll likely be burning some bridges there. I know it won't matter in the end, but they are good people that I've gotten to know. I hate the trouble this would cause our families.


Finally
I want to keep updating for other's benefits. I see the advice here and I appreciate it all. I get advice other places too. In many ways I'm in my own deep fog right now. Some answers scare me. Some moments I quit caring all together. Some moments it feels like we're moving past this. Thanks for all the comments. I read and consider everything.

The advice on exposure is very clear. I'm stuck there and not sure why. At times I try to negate the affair since it supposedly didn't involve sex. Certainly it was headed that way, but at least up to D-Day, I believe they were caught before that happened. Second, I'm having a really hard time wanting this. At times it would be easier to find more hard evidence of them meeting. A future of always wondering what she's been doing bothers me. Also, she'll have to turn around and start helping work on our marriage. Her new social life and desire to be free is troublesome.

We used to walk together often. It was wonderful.

I think it is because you believe your WW when she says things like the below:


Why do I think this? Because you also said this:


But I am not a mind reader. The one thing I know for 100% sure is that the A is not over. You said this earlier this week:
This was exactly...EXACTLY...how my H acted when he saw OW at work. He swore on a stack of bibles they didn't talk to each other, felt awkward, etc. Later when he went left the workplace and defogged, he admitted they had been unable to stay away from each other and that they had continued the EA at work. He thanked me for exposure and for demanding that he leave the job.

Without exposure, you are just spinning your wheels.

But I feel like I am beating a dead horse so I will back off this thread for now. Good luck!!