Hi all. I haven't posted in almost a year, when MB imploded. My husband had an affair four years ago and left me for the OW (a 19-year-old he'd met online and who lived halfway across the country), then returned when it was over three months later. At the time, I had no idea what was going on... I was 27, devastated, and he kept telling me it was because I was fat and annoying, wasn't considerate enough of him, didn't fulfill his sexual needs, etc. At the time, I didn't realize there was anyone else, I thought it was totally my fault, and I was soooo grateful when he gave me another chance.

Last summer, I searched the house after some other behavior red flags and discovered evidence of the affair. Plane tickets. Hotel receipts. MapQuest directions to her house. Blog posts of his where he described their dates and mused about whether he was in love. Photographs. Etc. I confronted him with it and he denied it all, told me I was snooping, and that if I asked any more questions, he'd divorce me. He blamed everything on me and was very insistent that this was all my fault, that he wasn't going to stand for this, that he would divorce me if I wouldn't "look forward, and not into the past." For awhile that scared me into silence. I thought constantly about divorce and started individual counseling. He refused to do marriage counseling, and he does not want me to see my IC. I started looking for the credit card records (which he had never let me see, and pre-affair, I had never thought too much of) and found that for the entire 7 years of our marriage, and through all our engagement and dating, he had been buying porn. A lot of porn--$200 a month, sometimes up to $600. This suddenly explained to me why he never would let me use his laptop, why he had everything tightly passworded, etc. (He is a data security professional and previously claimed it was just because it was "good practice" because of his work.) Needless to say, I am much less naive now.

We argued for months and he was never willing to talk about it... he would threaten to divorce me anytime I brought it up. I almost left in November when he smashed an alarm clock against the wall several times because he said I woke him up late and wasn't considerate enough. He left for a business trip at the beginning of January, and we had another fight before he left where he said (for the umpteenth time) that our problems were 100% my fault, that I needed to change and he didn't, and (for the first time) that I had to beg him to stay married to him. He actually demanded that I get on my knees and beg. To my eternal shame, I did, sobbing the whole time. Then he left on the trip and I thought, I just can't take this anymore. While he was gone, I packed up the house and moved into my parents' house. I picked him up from the airport when he returned, took him back to the empty house, and told him that I wanted a divorce. That I wasn't going to beg anyone to stay married to me. That I wasn't okay with privacy and secrecy any more. He swore that he would change and admitted (for the first time ever) that some of the problems were his fault. He agreed to start the MB program and set up an appointment with Jennifer. But he insisted that the "past has to stay in the past. We only talk about moving forward." I.e., any discussion of the affair is off-limits.

So, for the last seven months, we have been living apart and supposedly working on the MB program. It has not been a smooth ride. Some things have changed--he has been more patient (he used to snap at any little thing) and has been more willing to accept responsibility. He has agreed that he needs to work on things too, and has worked on some of them. I now am allowed to see the credit card statements, though I have only seen two months' worth (April and May), and he gave me several of his passwords to his laptop, etc. He claims he is not looking at porn anymore, and I know for sure that the OW has been gone for at least 3.5 years now. However, I also know he is a data security professional and it would not be difficult for him to hide anything he wanted from me. (He has actually pointed that out to me several times.) He says I need to trust him and take him at his word. He refuses to talk about "the past," saying that "the past is in the past, and we need to move forward," and we haven't had an appointment with Jennifer since April.

He pressed me about moving back in this weekend so we could continue moving forward. I said that I wanted to have a plan in place before I moved back in, and he agreed, but said that it had been over six months, and I had to move back in this weekend or he was going to move on, file for divorce, and find someone else. Because he was insisting we move back in together, last night I told him that I wanted to make sure it was really going to be different this time, that he wasn't looking at porn anymore because it hurt me and made me feel inadequate. I worried, of course, that he had found better ways to conceal it. He said that it's "not an issue anymore," that it was only an issue because I wasn't meeting his need for SF (and had never met that need), and that I needed to trust him. That I shouldn't even be asking about this anymore. That he had told me three months ago (in the ONLY conversation we have ever had about it, in which the ONLY thing he told me was that he wasn't going to do it anymore) that I didn't need to worry, and that was that. Then he got very angry that I had brought it up at all.

It became a huge argument, with him demanding an apology and telling me that I am too obsessed with this and that there's something wrong with the way I think, because I can't just let things go; that my question was offensive and failed to consider his feelings, and that he wasn't going to jump through any more hoops for me; and that I had to stop "demanding" openness and honest from him because the way to achieve honesty is to create closeness and intimacy, and the way to kill honesty is to "demand" joint credit cards and passwords. I tried to explain that I am feeling fearful and want to know, before we move back in together, that things are really going to be different. That what I wanted was reassurance that he has changed, but wasn't demanding anything. That I just wanted to know he had really changed. He was very angry and told me to "get out." He said I made him hate me. He wanted a divorce. He wasn't going to put up with this. I never change. He wanted an apology. I apologized and started to explain why I felt the way I did, but he repeatedly said he did not want any explanations because it was the same thing as a justification. I said I wanted him to understand my feelings. He said that was me changing the issue. He said I needed to convince him to stay married and try again, and that I wasn't being very convincing. He essentially said that the ONLY thing I should say was "I am sorry for bringing up the issue at all. I will never do it again" and nothing else. That anything else didn't matter and only made the situation worse. I kept saying that we needed to slow down, change the dynamic, and try to have a caring conversation where we created understanding between us. He repeatedly said he wanted a divorce and that I should leave. After some crying (less than in the past--he has threatened divorce probably 50 times in our marriage), I said goodbye, told him again that I was sorry and wanted to talk about things, and left. He kept saying "too bad, you had your shot" and kept saying that if I didn't leave, he would leave. So I left, at his insistence, after about four hours of this. I told him that I loved him and, if he had a change of heart, I was willing to talk. He said he wouldn't have a change of heart and that I should get out.

And about an hour after I came home (I am living at my parents'), he started texting me. Here is our text conversation:

Him: If it matters, I still love you. I wish this could have worked.
Me: Of course it matters. It always matters to me. I still love you too. I also wish we could have worked.

Then at 2:00 the next day:

Him: Quick question: do you have regrets about yesterday?
Him: (15 minutes later) Guess not. Goodbye.
Me: Sorry, I was outside with my mom and just saw this. I do wish things had gone differently. I wish we could have treated each other with more care. I wish this hadn't happened at all.
Him: So yes or no?
Me: Yes. Do you have any regrets?
Him: No regrets. I stand by my feelings from yesterday.
Me: You stand by all of them? Even that you hate me?
Him: Doesn't matter now.
Him: Anyway I was wondering if you had anything to say. Guess not.
Me: I wish things had gone differently. I'm sorry.
Him: What would change if we were to try again?
Me: I would not have brought it up the way I did, and I would make sure you felt more cared for. I think we need to treat each other with more care and consideration in general. We need to be more protective of each other's feelings and work to understand each other. I wish we understood each other's perspectives better.
Him: And as usual, you say something that screws things up. Goodbye.
Me: Wait, how does saying that we need to show each other more care and consideration screw things up?
Him: No, you once again chose to talk about yourself and say that I need to be understanding when it was you who was in the wrong yesterday.
Me: I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said what I did [yesterday]. I wish things had gone differently.
Him:[/b] I'm still not convinced.
Me: I really am sorry. I have been sad all day about us. I don't want this to end.
Him: I'm not convinced this will work is what I mean. Don't squander this as you did last night.
Me: I think it will work if we follow the MB principles we've been studying. We need to change the dynamic between us. We need to be more caring toward each other and show more empathy for each other. We need to make sure we are protecting each others' feelings. Conversations like this shouldn't happen at all. We should be talking in a way that is emotionally safe. We should be working to find solutions that are mutually agreeable.
Him: Still waiting. The next text is your LAST shot. No more after that.
Me: I am sorry. I wish things hadn't happened last night. I shouldn't have brought it up.
Him: You still didn't answer my question.
Me: In the future, I don't want this to happen again. If a similar situation were to happen, I wouldn't bring it up.
Him: [45 minutes later] I was thinking we could have had dinner and talked but I guess not.
Me: Oh... I am already at dinner with my parents. I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted to have dinner. I wish I had.
Him: Okay then.
Me: I'm sorry, I didn't know. You told me yesterday that you didn't want to see me. I am already at the restaurant. I had no way of knowing. I'm sorry.
Him: [2 hours later] So? I'm losing patience.
Him: Sigh. I give up. I guess it's just better to end it.
Me: What? Why? I'm not sure what you want. If you want to talk, we can. Just tell me. I think it's a little late tonight [it's now 8:30], but we could do tomorrow. I had been waiting to hear back from you. I am not sure what to say.
Him: Again with your priorities. I think we're done.
Me: Does that mean you want to talk right now? I feel like I am walking on eggshells... you are my priority, but you are also telling me it's over in every message... I feel like we would have a better conversation if we were both calm.
Him: I merely asked you this question originally at 5:15. You still haven't answered it.
Me: Yes. I would be willing to talk. But I think it would help if we were calmer first... I feel kind of pressured right now. We should talk when we are both calm and able to be caring. It is an important conversation. And I'm sorry it took so long, I didn't get the original text.
Him: I don't get you. If given a chance, you don't get that this is it (meaning: you're still emphasizing the "you" even still). Call me at 9 or don't call at all.

I called him at 9. He started off the conversation by saying, "You have ONE shot. If I don't like what you say, I'm hanging up." I apologized, but he didn't like the way I apologized and said it wasn't the "right" way, that I was still not taking full responsibility for being wrong and not convincing him that it wouldn't happen again, and he hung up. I called him back and tried again. It still wasn't "right." I asked him what he wanted me to say, and he told me. I said it. It still wasn't "right" or "convincing." He told me that I had to change my emotional needs list (that Jennifer had asked us to create and we had been working on) so that it didn't have the item about needing his passwords. I said we could talk about that. He said he wasn't going to deal with any more demands. I said, "they aren't demands, that's not what the list is." He hung up, then texted me.

Him: You blew your last chance. We're done.
Me: I love you and want to resolve this. I agree that demands are wrong. They only breed resentment. I am willing to look at the [emotional needs] list and make sure there are no demands, only requests... I really wish this conversation was less heated. Dr. Harley says we should table conversations so that we can guarantee a safe environment and make progress... I'd like to do that. I do want to make progress. I'm willing to make the changes necessary.
Him: Sigh. Last chance - call me at 10:30. I suggest making some sort of bullet points/outline before you do.
Me: Can we table this until tomorrow? I think Dr. H is right about waiting to discuss problems until we are able to guarantee the environment. These conversations are too important to do them the wrong way...
Him: No. 10:30.
Him: It's now 10:33. Not good.

I called and said I was sorry, I agreed that demands only hurt our marriage and created resentment, and that I would reread the chapter on Selfish Demands and make sure there were no demands. (There are no demands on the list. Jennifer helped me write all of the statements he is against.) I said I wanted to work on our marriage and that I loved him.

He said that I wasn't convincing him. That I needed to "make the sale." That if I were getting fired from a job, I wouldn't say, "I'll take a look at that and make changes," I would say, "I'll do anything" and I'd do it right then. I tried to say that our marriage isn't a job, it's a relationship, but he kept insisting. He insisted I reapologize several times because each one was not "good enough" or "convincing enough." I said that I didn't know what he wanted me to say, and that it shouldn't be about whether I said exactly the "right" thing but about creating a relationship, and that this conversation was destroying love. He said that there were six things that he had written down and that he had told himself that he would only try again if I said those six things. I asked what they were--he didn't want to tell me. Then he did. I wrote them down. They are (almost word for word):

1. If there is an issue where you caused the problem, don't make it difficult. (i.e., don't try to explain, just apologize immediately)
2. Change your EN list. Remove the demands ["I would love it if you gave me the passwords to your laptop, e-mail, and credit card accounts" is the one he's after]. There will be no passwords. Replace that whole section on honesty and openness with something to establish intimacy instead, because intimacy is the way to establish H&O, not demands.
3. You need to keep your selfish attitude in check. [He thinks I am too focused on my needs and not enough on his.] You need to keep your priorities in check.
4. You need to keep my mindset in check. If I tell you I feel like I'm #10 on your list of priorities, you need to be aware of that and act accordingly.
5. You need to stop being so obsessive [about the porn] and let things be. The question should never come up.
6. You need to give me ballpark dates for the milestones [i.e., when we will have kids, which I have previously said would happen after we had established trust and stability again, but he says is too vague].

He wanted me to come over with a new list and a date to have a baby the next day [it was now 11:30]. I said that I could do these things, but that I wanted time to look over the list and think through what I needed to do and how best to respond. His response (which I wrote down) was: "What the hell? The gall of you to do so [ask for a day]. You have some nerve. The hell with you."

He repeatedly said that I had to convince him and that I needed to show more remorse and more urgency about it. He told me I better get a lawyer, then hung up on me. He then unfriended me on Facebook and wrote me the following:

"I removed you as a Facebook friend - I think making a clean break (or as clean as possible) is the best way to go.

Anyway, since you'll be at work tomorrow, I want to remind you that you'll probably need to transfer your insurance to yourself [I am on his insurance and he wants me off because he doesn't want me in IC anymore]. So it might be a good time to do so.

With the next person you meet, I have this piece of advice: if you do that person wrong for any reason, please consider having a sense of urgency and/or remorse. Please don't assert your own views, since it's inappropriate. Please treat him like you don't want to lose him. After all, you lost me that way."

At this moment, I have no desire to even contact him again, and I'm feeling like I took way too much. I made an appointment with my IC to talk about this all tomorrow as well. But I guess I want some objective opinions on the conversations above--what you see in him, and what, if anything, I should have done differently.

Any thoughts, comments, or 2x4s would be welcome. This whole situation makes me feel crazy.

ann, hey girl. I am sorry you are here again. I am new to MB and the forum, so I am still learning all the MB principles. I would definitely say, though, that you are not asking him for anything he shouldn't be willing to give you. If he loves you & wants the marriage, it should not be a problem to reassure you and be an open book. Instead, he is turning it around and making you feel like you are the one being insensitive and controlling--and frankly you let him do it. You seem to be a smart woman, why do you let him beat your emotions down? Let him go and do not take him back when he crawls back begging--which he will.

All I see in your WH is a very immature bully and control freak.

He is fiercely protecting his secrecy and wants you to condone his future transgressions. Don't consider this for a second.

I do not see somebody that understands the impact of what they have done to you. I do not see someone that has even the slightest consideration for protecting you in the future.

You would be better off without this man in your life. He offers you nothing but pain in the future.

You know what to do. Time to treat Anna with some respect. Time to move on.

Oh my heck, what a JERK!!! You are so much better off! You need to show remorse, you need to not ask for things that make you feel safe??? So basically he just wants to do what he wants with NO regard for you and what you need???

HE had the affair- HE looks at the porn? You're the bad guy here? You are selfish and obsessive? Really? He needs a complete crainial-rectal extraction!

Ditch this loser, you deserve so much more.

Anna, I am in no way qualified to deal with everything you just posted. I hope some vets will come along soon. (KaylaAndy? I'm always particularly impressed with how KA handles this kind of subject matter.)

IMVHO, this is abuse. It goes beyond "mere" gaslighting, blameshifting, and manipulation. Please try to objectively read your post, and view what your H has done to you and who you have become as a result of it. I think you know he is in the wrong.

I don't have anything to offer other than urging you to formulate a plan to protect yourself from your H and his abuse. It may be a Plan B (DARK), or it may be a Plan D. What does/did Jennifer have to say about all of this?

She or he who cares the least about a relationship has the most power.

He likes you groveling. He likes control. He does not share power in this relationship.

I suggest you stay right where you are. Your next response to his bullying should only be:

I'm Not Hearing or Seeing from You What I Need to See in Order to Return to This Relationship.

Then silence. He will threaten. He may even file. Is that the worst thing that could happen to you?

Absolutely not. The worst thing that could happen is that you give in and grovel to this bully. Nothing has changed.

He's still using porn. He's still cheating on you. He wants to be God in your life, unquestioned, all knowing. This is not a man who is marriage material. Period.

He has a lot of changing to do before he is. You are in the way of the changes he needs to make. As long as you are weak, you enable him Not Changing. Therefore, you need to get out of the way. All of the way out of his way. Not just physically out of the house. Change your cell phone. Warn your parents to change their cell phone #s. Do not receive emails from him. Block him. Let him fall - all the way. He has Jennifer's #. I'd also make sure that when you write your Plan B letter, you include a phone number or web address for a s*x addiction recovery program.

Does he have a s*x addiction? It's likely. Because he demands so much of you to enable him. His demanding behavior is telling. His secrecy is telling.

Get out of his way. You may have to divorce him because he may be so sick that he can't see his way out of a wet paper bag if it's lined with porn pictures.

I agree with KA 100% on this. Read this quote again and again.

Also agree that he is not even close to husband/marriage material right now.

Here is a quote from you back in November.....

WHY didn't you run back then? LEAVE NOW before you have any children.

Here is something else you posted.
I think you should go back and read your posts from November and see how much worse things have gotten.

Agree with everyone above. The guy has big problems. Making you get on your knees and grovel is so wrong on so many levels, it makes me sick. The constant threat of divorce when he doesn't get his way is unconscionable. With a guy this toxic, you might consider running and never look back. This guy makes Mel Gibson look like a saint.

How is separation = MB?

anna,

I could do an analysis, but after looking at your interchange of texts, I do not need to do a blow-by-blow to explain what has happened in your relationship.


This man is an emotional abuser, who has you under the impression that you OWE him something.

He has you believing that he is superior to him, and that you are at fault in the degradation of this relationship. You apologized to him over and over - when there is NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR.

He revels in his power over you, and bullies you. He gives you repeated "last chances". There are at least four "last chances" that he gives you over the course of your posts.

Why should YOU have a last chance? You have done nothing wrong.

HE HAS HAD THE AFFAIR.

YOU HAVE NOT.

Your question to him was a fair and logical one - how can asking for mutual consideration and care for each other's feelings and points of view be a controversial thing?

It isn't.

What it is - to him - is a LOSS OF POWER AND CONTROL OVER YOU.

He is a control freak, and you have dared to attempt to usurp that power and control, by questioning him, by leaving him, by actually telling him that


HE WAS WRONG.

I am willing to be he has difficulty accepting failure, accepting that he can make a mistake, accepting correction on the job, and that when he was in counseling he berated the sessions and counseling because it meant he might have to change because he was WRONG in his behavior.

He doesn't like to be WRONG.

His bullying of you shows that he has a very weak ego, and he needs to hurt someone in order to feel strong.


My advice to you is not to go back into this marriage. He is not willing to relinquish what he sees as "the upper hand", when in fact he has no inner strength. I see this as going downhill, and fast, if you go back into this house. He will see you as a doormat


and all of your apologies to him

make that case a very strong one


you need to immediately stop apologizing


stop now.


You make demands, and then apologize. This weakens you, and he knows that you are willing to do what he wants. There is no backbone in your words if you take them away with an apology and begging to be heard - over and over in your texts you do that.


You need to move to a Plan B, very dark, and make your demands stick. He needs serious intervention in counseling to stop the abuse he dishes out to you, or your marriage will not succeed. He has to understand that he has issues.

Plan B. Now.

Write your letter, MEAN IT, and go very dark.

If you have even a remote hope of saving this marriage, would be your only hope, IMHO.

SB

I just want to add, that *I* would not attempt to save this marriage. Plan B is if YOU want to save it.

Sb

We had perhaps five or six MB sessions, and he was being more agreeable at the time. Jennifer said that it was possible he would get fully on board after a few sessions, and that it was up to me if I wanted to give him that opportunity or do Plan B. I said I was willing to give him a few sessions. She said that I should not move back in until he had given me the passwords, but that once he did, I should so that we could work on the MB program better. In the meantime, we were supposed to spend at least 15 hours a week meeting each others' ENs.

WH stopped making the appointments in April. He just sort of never scheduled another one, but kept saying he would.


This was a point I pressed back in April... the previous conversation about porn I was referring to. I told him that he had to prove that he wasn't looking at children or I was leaving and turning him in. (To drive home this point, I did not speak to him for two weeks.) He then did prove it--there is a long story there, but basically, there are other sites associated with that biller that I was unaware of and he showed me some evidence of which site he had been looking at. I am quite computer-savvy myself, and I do think he cleared himself of at least that.

Leave the man. His intentions are that the marriage is to continue under

HIS TERMS ONLY.


That marriage includes you being subservient

His being allowed to have porn and affairs

and you being unhappy and emotionally abused.


If you return to this marriage, go into it knowing that THESE ARE THE CONDITIONS.

There are no other conditions for your husband.


SB

Schoolbus, she was contemplating plan B or D back in November. See post called "Thinking about Plan B/D"

PLEASE READ and DO THIS...

Sometimes saving a M is giving G-d time to work out the defects in OTHER people. When we are in situations where we are being hurt emotionally we can't always see the road straight and we learn to respond and accept things that aren't healthy for us without even knowing it.

Not only does Plan B give you the chance to recover your M, but it gives you a chance to be in a different environment, and create the ability for you to grown and learn about yourself and better handle these situations which are not good for you or a healthy M.

Just so you know that I speak from knowledge and possible similar feelings, my husband had an A for almost 5 years and walked out the day it was exposed. We were separated for over 2 years. I worked a poor Plan A, then got the most amazing advice from people on here, then against what I wanted to do, went into a VERY DARK Plan B for almost a year.

Being in a situation where I was "abused" or badly treated undermined me inside without realizing it. It was only AFTER I went into Plan B that I was able to rest, gain strength and walk the journey I needed to walk so that when G-ds timing of recovering my M was happening I was ready, emotionally and mentally, so that I wasn't walking back into that same bad marriage.

You are getting some incredible advice from very knowledgeable and strong people who understand what to do. Please love yourself enough to listen to them.

YOUR life can depend on it.

I completely agree this is a case of emotional abuse. I once dated a guy that behaved in a similar fashion. He always wanted me to apologize and see that he was right, ESP when he was wrong. Later it turned violent.

I remember my last conversation with him.... (I was a teenager at this point)

Him: If you leave me I am going to kill myself
Me: Good! I hope to God you Do! Then I won' t have to deal with you ever again!

The next year I heard through the grapevine that he was in Jail.


My point with this story is that these personalities say exactly what they expect you to fear; in your case the end of your marriage, but they end up groveling at the end. Even then, IMHO it would not be a relationship worth saving. There are better men out there, who will love and care for you. Go ahead and get away from him. You will be much happier in the end. I know I was.

Wow, schoolbus, I am happy to be getting advice from you. I always read your analyses of other people's posts. Thank you.

You are saying essentially what my IC is saying. She has been telling me that I am being emotionally abused for a year now. It did improve for awhile, but obviously is back full force. She also tells me that my own point of view is so skewed by years of this that I no longer see things for what they are. Anything you point out to me is helpful... I often feel like I am crazy or making too much of things.

I have no plans to return at this point. I think I am done--as in, Plan D done. I am just afraid that I will get emotional and "forget" all the things that have happened, or afraid that I will never have children. (I woke up this morning thinking, "maybe I should..." then came here and read all everyone's, and now I am angry at him again, so THANK YOU.)

He sent me another Facebook message this morning:

"It's time to move on. I gave you enough chances in the past couple days to convince me that this would work - all you had to do was apologize, tell me it wasn't going to happen again, be apologetic, and at least act like this was the last chance to make things better. That's it. Instead what you did was assert yourself and disregard how I felt (which basically reflects the heart of the problem).

I gave you ten billion chances. It's done. I mean, the very least you could have done was send some sort of convincing email or whatever after the fact, but you couldn't even do that. Please look into switching your insurance - you may have an HR rep at the school during the summer."

Anna,

I am glad you are getting some good advice. I agree the others that this goes beyond "wayward" issues.

My 2cents: I would go straight to Plan D ~ I am scared for any children you could possibly bring in to the home.

Additionally, does your IC know about things like this:

Have you gotten the "Boundaries" book by Townsend & Cloud (? I think) that has been recommended here?

Hang in there!

Yes, my IC knows about everything. I have been in counseling for over a year. She has been very firm the whole time about me needing to get stronger and leave... she was part of what helped me move out in January. (I was already in counseling for seven months at the time that happened.)


Yes, I got the boundaries book and read it (twice) last summer. I was doing better with them for awhile (in January-May) but I am not doing so well with them now.