Hi all. I haven't posted in almost a year, when MB imploded. My husband had an affair four years ago and left me for the OW (a 19-year-old he'd met online and who lived halfway across the country), then returned when it was over three months later. At the time, I had no idea what was going on... I was 27, devastated, and he kept telling me it was because I was fat and annoying, wasn't considerate enough of him, didn't fulfill his sexual needs, etc. At the time, I didn't realize there was anyone else, I thought it was totally my fault, and I was soooo grateful when he gave me another chance.

Last summer, I searched the house after some other behavior red flags and discovered evidence of the affair. Plane tickets. Hotel receipts. MapQuest directions to her house. Blog posts of his where he described their dates and mused about whether he was in love. Photographs. Etc. I confronted him with it and he denied it all, told me I was snooping, and that if I asked any more questions, he'd divorce me. He blamed everything on me and was very insistent that this was all my fault, that he wasn't going to stand for this, that he would divorce me if I wouldn't "look forward, and not into the past." For awhile that scared me into silence. I thought constantly about divorce and started individual counseling. He refused to do marriage counseling, and he does not want me to see my IC. I started looking for the credit card records (which he had never let me see, and pre-affair, I had never thought too much of) and found that for the entire 7 years of our marriage, and through all our engagement and dating, he had been buying porn. A lot of porn--$200 a month, sometimes up to $600. This suddenly explained to me why he never would let me use his laptop, why he had everything tightly passworded, etc. (He is a data security professional and previously claimed it was just because it was "good practice" because of his work.) Needless to say, I am much less naive now.

We argued for months and he was never willing to talk about it... he would threaten to divorce me anytime I brought it up. I almost left in November when he smashed an alarm clock against the wall several times because he said I woke him up late and wasn't considerate enough. He left for a business trip at the beginning of January, and we had another fight before he left where he said (for the umpteenth time) that our problems were 100% my fault, that I needed to change and he didn't, and (for the first time) that I had to beg him to stay married to him. He actually demanded that I get on my knees and beg. To my eternal shame, I did, sobbing the whole time. Then he left on the trip and I thought, I just can't take this anymore. While he was gone, I packed up the house and moved into my parents' house. I picked him up from the airport when he returned, took him back to the empty house, and told him that I wanted a divorce. That I wasn't going to beg anyone to stay married to me. That I wasn't okay with privacy and secrecy any more. He swore that he would change and admitted (for the first time ever) that some of the problems were his fault. He agreed to start the MB program and set up an appointment with Jennifer. But he insisted that the "past has to stay in the past. We only talk about moving forward." I.e., any discussion of the affair is off-limits.

So, for the last seven months, we have been living apart and supposedly working on the MB program. It has not been a smooth ride. Some things have changed--he has been more patient (he used to snap at any little thing) and has been more willing to accept responsibility. He has agreed that he needs to work on things too, and has worked on some of them. I now am allowed to see the credit card statements, though I have only seen two months' worth (April and May), and he gave me several of his passwords to his laptop, etc. He claims he is not looking at porn anymore, and I know for sure that the OW has been gone for at least 3.5 years now. However, I also know he is a data security professional and it would not be difficult for him to hide anything he wanted from me. (He has actually pointed that out to me several times.) He says I need to trust him and take him at his word. He refuses to talk about "the past," saying that "the past is in the past, and we need to move forward," and we haven't had an appointment with Jennifer since April.

He pressed me about moving back in this weekend so we could continue moving forward. I said that I wanted to have a plan in place before I moved back in, and he agreed, but said that it had been over six months, and I had to move back in this weekend or he was going to move on, file for divorce, and find someone else. Because he was insisting we move back in together, last night I told him that I wanted to make sure it was really going to be different this time, that he wasn't looking at porn anymore because it hurt me and made me feel inadequate. I worried, of course, that he had found better ways to conceal it. He said that it's "not an issue anymore," that it was only an issue because I wasn't meeting his need for SF (and had never met that need), and that I needed to trust him. That I shouldn't even be asking about this anymore. That he had told me three months ago (in the ONLY conversation we have ever had about it, in which the ONLY thing he told me was that he wasn't going to do it anymore) that I didn't need to worry, and that was that. Then he got very angry that I had brought it up at all.

It became a huge argument, with him demanding an apology and telling me that I am too obsessed with this and that there's something wrong with the way I think, because I can't just let things go; that my question was offensive and failed to consider his feelings, and that he wasn't going to jump through any more hoops for me; and that I had to stop "demanding" openness and honest from him because the way to achieve honesty is to create closeness and intimacy, and the way to kill honesty is to "demand" joint credit cards and passwords. I tried to explain that I am feeling fearful and want to know, before we move back in together, that things are really going to be different. That what I wanted was reassurance that he has changed, but wasn't demanding anything. That I just wanted to know he had really changed. He was very angry and told me to "get out." He said I made him hate me. He wanted a divorce. He wasn't going to put up with this. I never change. He wanted an apology. I apologized and started to explain why I felt the way I did, but he repeatedly said he did not want any explanations because it was the same thing as a justification. I said I wanted him to understand my feelings. He said that was me changing the issue. He said I needed to convince him to stay married and try again, and that I wasn't being very convincing. He essentially said that the ONLY thing I should say was "I am sorry for bringing up the issue at all. I will never do it again" and nothing else. That anything else didn't matter and only made the situation worse. I kept saying that we needed to slow down, change the dynamic, and try to have a caring conversation where we created understanding between us. He repeatedly said he wanted a divorce and that I should leave. After some crying (less than in the past--he has threatened divorce probably 50 times in our marriage), I said goodbye, told him again that I was sorry and wanted to talk about things, and left. He kept saying "too bad, you had your shot" and kept saying that if I didn't leave, he would leave. So I left, at his insistence, after about four hours of this. I told him that I loved him and, if he had a change of heart, I was willing to talk. He said he wouldn't have a change of heart and that I should get out.

And about an hour after I came home (I am living at my parents'), he started texting me. Here is our text conversation:

Him: If it matters, I still love you. I wish this could have worked.
Me: Of course it matters. It always matters to me. I still love you too. I also wish we could have worked.

Then at 2:00 the next day:

Him: Quick question: do you have regrets about yesterday?
Him: (15 minutes later) Guess not. Goodbye.
Me: Sorry, I was outside with my mom and just saw this. I do wish things had gone differently. I wish we could have treated each other with more care. I wish this hadn't happened at all.
Him: So yes or no?
Me: Yes. Do you have any regrets?
Him: No regrets. I stand by my feelings from yesterday.
Me: You stand by all of them? Even that you hate me?
Him: Doesn't matter now.
Him: Anyway I was wondering if you had anything to say. Guess not.
Me: I wish things had gone differently. I'm sorry.
Him: What would change if we were to try again?
Me: I would not have brought it up the way I did, and I would make sure you felt more cared for. I think we need to treat each other with more care and consideration in general. We need to be more protective of each other's feelings and work to understand each other. I wish we understood each other's perspectives better.
Him: And as usual, you say something that screws things up. Goodbye.
Me: Wait, how does saying that we need to show each other more care and consideration screw things up?
Him: No, you once again chose to talk about yourself and say that I need to be understanding when it was you who was in the wrong yesterday.
Me: I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said what I did [yesterday]. I wish things had gone differently.
Him:[/b] I'm still not convinced.
Me: I really am sorry. I have been sad all day about us. I don't want this to end.
Him: I'm not convinced this will work is what I mean. Don't squander this as you did last night.
Me: I think it will work if we follow the MB principles we've been studying. We need to change the dynamic between us. We need to be more caring toward each other and show more empathy for each other. We need to make sure we are protecting each others' feelings. Conversations like this shouldn't happen at all. We should be talking in a way that is emotionally safe. We should be working to find solutions that are mutually agreeable.
Him: Still waiting. The next text is your LAST shot. No more after that.
Me: I am sorry. I wish things hadn't happened last night. I shouldn't have brought it up.
Him: You still didn't answer my question.
Me: In the future, I don't want this to happen again. If a similar situation were to happen, I wouldn't bring it up.
Him: [45 minutes later] I was thinking we could have had dinner and talked but I guess not.
Me: Oh... I am already at dinner with my parents. I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted to have dinner. I wish I had.
Him: Okay then.
Me: I'm sorry, I didn't know. You told me yesterday that you didn't want to see me. I am already at the restaurant. I had no way of knowing. I'm sorry.
Him: [2 hours later] So? I'm losing patience.
Him: Sigh. I give up. I guess it's just better to end it.
Me: What? Why? I'm not sure what you want. If you want to talk, we can. Just tell me. I think it's a little late tonight [it's now 8:30], but we could do tomorrow. I had been waiting to hear back from you. I am not sure what to say.
Him: Again with your priorities. I think we're done.
Me: Does that mean you want to talk right now? I feel like I am walking on eggshells... you are my priority, but you are also telling me it's over in every message... I feel like we would have a better conversation if we were both calm.
Him: I merely asked you this question originally at 5:15. You still haven't answered it.
Me: Yes. I would be willing to talk. But I think it would help if we were calmer first... I feel kind of pressured right now. We should talk when we are both calm and able to be caring. It is an important conversation. And I'm sorry it took so long, I didn't get the original text.
Him: I don't get you. If given a chance, you don't get that this is it (meaning: you're still emphasizing the "you" even still). Call me at 9 or don't call at all.

I called him at 9. He started off the conversation by saying, "You have ONE shot. If I don't like what you say, I'm hanging up." I apologized, but he didn't like the way I apologized and said it wasn't the "right" way, that I was still not taking full responsibility for being wrong and not convincing him that it wouldn't happen again, and he hung up. I called him back and tried again. It still wasn't "right." I asked him what he wanted me to say, and he told me. I said it. It still wasn't "right" or "convincing." He told me that I had to change my emotional needs list (that Jennifer had asked us to create and we had been working on) so that it didn't have the item about needing his passwords. I said we could talk about that. He said he wasn't going to deal with any more demands. I said, "they aren't demands, that's not what the list is." He hung up, then texted me.

Him: You blew your last chance. We're done.
Me: I love you and want to resolve this. I agree that demands are wrong. They only breed resentment. I am willing to look at the [emotional needs] list and make sure there are no demands, only requests... I really wish this conversation was less heated. Dr. Harley says we should table conversations so that we can guarantee a safe environment and make progress... I'd like to do that. I do want to make progress. I'm willing to make the changes necessary.
Him: Sigh. Last chance - call me at 10:30. I suggest making some sort of bullet points/outline before you do.
Me: Can we table this until tomorrow? I think Dr. H is right about waiting to discuss problems until we are able to guarantee the environment. These conversations are too important to do them the wrong way...
Him: No. 10:30.
Him: It's now 10:33. Not good.

I called and said I was sorry, I agreed that demands only hurt our marriage and created resentment, and that I would reread the chapter on Selfish Demands and make sure there were no demands. (There are no demands on the list. Jennifer helped me write all of the statements he is against.) I said I wanted to work on our marriage and that I loved him.

He said that I wasn't convincing him. That I needed to "make the sale." That if I were getting fired from a job, I wouldn't say, "I'll take a look at that and make changes," I would say, "I'll do anything" and I'd do it right then. I tried to say that our marriage isn't a job, it's a relationship, but he kept insisting. He insisted I reapologize several times because each one was not "good enough" or "convincing enough." I said that I didn't know what he wanted me to say, and that it shouldn't be about whether I said exactly the "right" thing but about creating a relationship, and that this conversation was destroying love. He said that there were six things that he had written down and that he had told himself that he would only try again if I said those six things. I asked what they were--he didn't want to tell me. Then he did. I wrote them down. They are (almost word for word):

1. If there is an issue where you caused the problem, don't make it difficult. (i.e., don't try to explain, just apologize immediately)
2. Change your EN list. Remove the demands ["I would love it if you gave me the passwords to your laptop, e-mail, and credit card accounts" is the one he's after]. There will be no passwords. Replace that whole section on honesty and openness with something to establish intimacy instead, because intimacy is the way to establish H&O, not demands.
3. You need to keep your selfish attitude in check. [He thinks I am too focused on my needs and not enough on his.] You need to keep your priorities in check.
4. You need to keep my mindset in check. If I tell you I feel like I'm #10 on your list of priorities, you need to be aware of that and act accordingly.
5. You need to stop being so obsessive [about the porn] and let things be. The question should never come up.
6. You need to give me ballpark dates for the milestones [i.e., when we will have kids, which I have previously said would happen after we had established trust and stability again, but he says is too vague].

He wanted me to come over with a new list and a date to have a baby the next day [it was now 11:30]. I said that I could do these things, but that I wanted time to look over the list and think through what I needed to do and how best to respond. His response (which I wrote down) was: "What the hell? The gall of you to do so [ask for a day]. You have some nerve. The hell with you."

He repeatedly said that I had to convince him and that I needed to show more remorse and more urgency about it. He told me I better get a lawyer, then hung up on me. He then unfriended me on Facebook and wrote me the following:

"I removed you as a Facebook friend - I think making a clean break (or as clean as possible) is the best way to go.

Anyway, since you'll be at work tomorrow, I want to remind you that you'll probably need to transfer your insurance to yourself [I am on his insurance and he wants me off because he doesn't want me in IC anymore]. So it might be a good time to do so.

With the next person you meet, I have this piece of advice: if you do that person wrong for any reason, please consider having a sense of urgency and/or remorse. Please don't assert your own views, since it's inappropriate. Please treat him like you don't want to lose him. After all, you lost me that way."

At this moment, I have no desire to even contact him again, and I'm feeling like I took way too much. I made an appointment with my IC to talk about this all tomorrow as well. But I guess I want some objective opinions on the conversations above--what you see in him, and what, if anything, I should have done differently.

Any thoughts, comments, or 2x4s would be welcome. This whole situation makes me feel crazy.

ann, hey girl. I am sorry you are here again. I am new to MB and the forum, so I am still learning all the MB principles. I would definitely say, though, that you are not asking him for anything he shouldn't be willing to give you. If he loves you & wants the marriage, it should not be a problem to reassure you and be an open book. Instead, he is turning it around and making you feel like you are the one being insensitive and controlling--and frankly you let him do it. You seem to be a smart woman, why do you let him beat your emotions down? Let him go and do not take him back when he crawls back begging--which he will.

All I see in your WH is a very immature bully and control freak.

He is fiercely protecting his secrecy and wants you to condone his future transgressions. Don't consider this for a second.

I do not see somebody that understands the impact of what they have done to you. I do not see someone that has even the slightest consideration for protecting you in the future.

You would be better off without this man in your life. He offers you nothing but pain in the future.

You know what to do. Time to treat Anna with some respect. Time to move on.

Oh my heck, what a JERK!!! You are so much better off! You need to show remorse, you need to not ask for things that make you feel safe??? So basically he just wants to do what he wants with NO regard for you and what you need???

HE had the affair- HE looks at the porn? You're the bad guy here? You are selfish and obsessive? Really? He needs a complete crainial-rectal extraction!

Ditch this loser, you deserve so much more.

Anna, I am in no way qualified to deal with everything you just posted. I hope some vets will come along soon. (KaylaAndy? I'm always particularly impressed with how KA handles this kind of subject matter.)

IMVHO, this is abuse. It goes beyond "mere" gaslighting, blameshifting, and manipulation. Please try to objectively read your post, and view what your H has done to you and who you have become as a result of it. I think you know he is in the wrong.

I don't have anything to offer other than urging you to formulate a plan to protect yourself from your H and his abuse. It may be a Plan B (DARK), or it may be a Plan D. What does/did Jennifer have to say about all of this?

She or he who cares the least about a relationship has the most power.

He likes you groveling. He likes control. He does not share power in this relationship.

I suggest you stay right where you are. Your next response to his bullying should only be:

I'm Not Hearing or Seeing from You What I Need to See in Order to Return to This Relationship.

Then silence. He will threaten. He may even file. Is that the worst thing that could happen to you?

Absolutely not. The worst thing that could happen is that you give in and grovel to this bully. Nothing has changed.

He's still using porn. He's still cheating on you. He wants to be God in your life, unquestioned, all knowing. This is not a man who is marriage material. Period.

He has a lot of changing to do before he is. You are in the way of the changes he needs to make. As long as you are weak, you enable him Not Changing. Therefore, you need to get out of the way. All of the way out of his way. Not just physically out of the house. Change your cell phone. Warn your parents to change their cell phone #s. Do not receive emails from him. Block him. Let him fall - all the way. He has Jennifer's #. I'd also make sure that when you write your Plan B letter, you include a phone number or web address for a s*x addiction recovery program.

Does he have a s*x addiction? It's likely. Because he demands so much of you to enable him. His demanding behavior is telling. His secrecy is telling.

Get out of his way. You may have to divorce him because he may be so sick that he can't see his way out of a wet paper bag if it's lined with porn pictures.

I agree with KA 100% on this. Read this quote again and again.

Also agree that he is not even close to husband/marriage material right now.

Here is a quote from you back in November.....

WHY didn't you run back then? LEAVE NOW before you have any children.

Here is something else you posted.
I think you should go back and read your posts from November and see how much worse things have gotten.

Agree with everyone above. The guy has big problems. Making you get on your knees and grovel is so wrong on so many levels, it makes me sick. The constant threat of divorce when he doesn't get his way is unconscionable. With a guy this toxic, you might consider running and never look back. This guy makes Mel Gibson look like a saint.

How is separation = MB?

anna,

I could do an analysis, but after looking at your interchange of texts, I do not need to do a blow-by-blow to explain what has happened in your relationship.


This man is an emotional abuser, who has you under the impression that you OWE him something.

He has you believing that he is superior to him, and that you are at fault in the degradation of this relationship. You apologized to him over and over - when there is NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR.

He revels in his power over you, and bullies you. He gives you repeated "last chances". There are at least four "last chances" that he gives you over the course of your posts.

Why should YOU have a last chance? You have done nothing wrong.

HE HAS HAD THE AFFAIR.

YOU HAVE NOT.

Your question to him was a fair and logical one - how can asking for mutual consideration and care for each other's feelings and points of view be a controversial thing?

It isn't.

What it is - to him - is a LOSS OF POWER AND CONTROL OVER YOU.

He is a control freak, and you have dared to attempt to usurp that power and control, by questioning him, by leaving him, by actually telling him that


HE WAS WRONG.

I am willing to be he has difficulty accepting failure, accepting that he can make a mistake, accepting correction on the job, and that when he was in counseling he berated the sessions and counseling because it meant he might have to change because he was WRONG in his behavior.

He doesn't like to be WRONG.

His bullying of you shows that he has a very weak ego, and he needs to hurt someone in order to feel strong.


My advice to you is not to go back into this marriage. He is not willing to relinquish what he sees as "the upper hand", when in fact he has no inner strength. I see this as going downhill, and fast, if you go back into this house. He will see you as a doormat


and all of your apologies to him

make that case a very strong one


you need to immediately stop apologizing


stop now.


You make demands, and then apologize. This weakens you, and he knows that you are willing to do what he wants. There is no backbone in your words if you take them away with an apology and begging to be heard - over and over in your texts you do that.


You need to move to a Plan B, very dark, and make your demands stick. He needs serious intervention in counseling to stop the abuse he dishes out to you, or your marriage will not succeed. He has to understand that he has issues.

Plan B. Now.

Write your letter, MEAN IT, and go very dark.

If you have even a remote hope of saving this marriage, would be your only hope, IMHO.

SB

I just want to add, that *I* would not attempt to save this marriage. Plan B is if YOU want to save it.

Sb

We had perhaps five or six MB sessions, and he was being more agreeable at the time. Jennifer said that it was possible he would get fully on board after a few sessions, and that it was up to me if I wanted to give him that opportunity or do Plan B. I said I was willing to give him a few sessions. She said that I should not move back in until he had given me the passwords, but that once he did, I should so that we could work on the MB program better. In the meantime, we were supposed to spend at least 15 hours a week meeting each others' ENs.

WH stopped making the appointments in April. He just sort of never scheduled another one, but kept saying he would.


This was a point I pressed back in April... the previous conversation about porn I was referring to. I told him that he had to prove that he wasn't looking at children or I was leaving and turning him in. (To drive home this point, I did not speak to him for two weeks.) He then did prove it--there is a long story there, but basically, there are other sites associated with that biller that I was unaware of and he showed me some evidence of which site he had been looking at. I am quite computer-savvy myself, and I do think he cleared himself of at least that.

Leave the man. His intentions are that the marriage is to continue under

HIS TERMS ONLY.


That marriage includes you being subservient

His being allowed to have porn and affairs

and you being unhappy and emotionally abused.


If you return to this marriage, go into it knowing that THESE ARE THE CONDITIONS.

There are no other conditions for your husband.


SB

Schoolbus, she was contemplating plan B or D back in November. See post called "Thinking about Plan B/D"

PLEASE READ and DO THIS...

Sometimes saving a M is giving G-d time to work out the defects in OTHER people. When we are in situations where we are being hurt emotionally we can't always see the road straight and we learn to respond and accept things that aren't healthy for us without even knowing it.

Not only does Plan B give you the chance to recover your M, but it gives you a chance to be in a different environment, and create the ability for you to grown and learn about yourself and better handle these situations which are not good for you or a healthy M.

Just so you know that I speak from knowledge and possible similar feelings, my husband had an A for almost 5 years and walked out the day it was exposed. We were separated for over 2 years. I worked a poor Plan A, then got the most amazing advice from people on here, then against what I wanted to do, went into a VERY DARK Plan B for almost a year.

Being in a situation where I was "abused" or badly treated undermined me inside without realizing it. It was only AFTER I went into Plan B that I was able to rest, gain strength and walk the journey I needed to walk so that when G-ds timing of recovering my M was happening I was ready, emotionally and mentally, so that I wasn't walking back into that same bad marriage.

You are getting some incredible advice from very knowledgeable and strong people who understand what to do. Please love yourself enough to listen to them.

YOUR life can depend on it.

I completely agree this is a case of emotional abuse. I once dated a guy that behaved in a similar fashion. He always wanted me to apologize and see that he was right, ESP when he was wrong. Later it turned violent.

I remember my last conversation with him.... (I was a teenager at this point)

Him: If you leave me I am going to kill myself
Me: Good! I hope to God you Do! Then I won' t have to deal with you ever again!

The next year I heard through the grapevine that he was in Jail.


My point with this story is that these personalities say exactly what they expect you to fear; in your case the end of your marriage, but they end up groveling at the end. Even then, IMHO it would not be a relationship worth saving. There are better men out there, who will love and care for you. Go ahead and get away from him. You will be much happier in the end. I know I was.

Wow, schoolbus, I am happy to be getting advice from you. I always read your analyses of other people's posts. Thank you.

You are saying essentially what my IC is saying. She has been telling me that I am being emotionally abused for a year now. It did improve for awhile, but obviously is back full force. She also tells me that my own point of view is so skewed by years of this that I no longer see things for what they are. Anything you point out to me is helpful... I often feel like I am crazy or making too much of things.

I have no plans to return at this point. I think I am done--as in, Plan D done. I am just afraid that I will get emotional and "forget" all the things that have happened, or afraid that I will never have children. (I woke up this morning thinking, "maybe I should..." then came here and read all everyone's, and now I am angry at him again, so THANK YOU.)

He sent me another Facebook message this morning:

"It's time to move on. I gave you enough chances in the past couple days to convince me that this would work - all you had to do was apologize, tell me it wasn't going to happen again, be apologetic, and at least act like this was the last chance to make things better. That's it. Instead what you did was assert yourself and disregard how I felt (which basically reflects the heart of the problem).

I gave you ten billion chances. It's done. I mean, the very least you could have done was send some sort of convincing email or whatever after the fact, but you couldn't even do that. Please look into switching your insurance - you may have an HR rep at the school during the summer."

Anna,

I am glad you are getting some good advice. I agree the others that this goes beyond "wayward" issues.

My 2cents: I would go straight to Plan D ~ I am scared for any children you could possibly bring in to the home.

Additionally, does your IC know about things like this:

Have you gotten the "Boundaries" book by Townsend & Cloud (? I think) that has been recommended here?

Hang in there!

Yes, my IC knows about everything. I have been in counseling for over a year. She has been very firm the whole time about me needing to get stronger and leave... she was part of what helped me move out in January. (I was already in counseling for seven months at the time that happened.)


Yes, I got the boundaries book and read it (twice) last summer. I was doing better with them for awhile (in January-May) but I am not doing so well with them now.

The more you stand up for yourself, the more you STOP allowing his spitful spew to get in, the more he will push and hurt you.

You can't stop him, or control what he does or say. BUT you can take care of yourself and protect yourself. You can block him from facebook, you can do so much.

Protecting yourself and stopping the insanity will help you recover YOU...

My best advice anna, for whatever it is worth, is get to an attorney and file. File first and see what he thinks of that. I think he still thinks you are coming back or he would have dropped it by now. He keeps coming back either so he can feel big by abusing you or because he honestly does not know what he will do without you (maybe because he needs someone to be master over) and maybe he does love you but is just an abusive creep.

I do not mean this for spite, I think it would do the both of you a world of good for you to stand up in the ultimate moment and take the control of the situation. You will feel better about yourself and he will be upset and he deserves to be after what he has put you through.

I have had my share and about 20 others share of abuse in my life but I have to say, your H is probably the most controlling person I have seen.

This is all up to you of course and my advice is probably not good advice but it is what I thought as soon as I read this. You need to be first and best(in his eyes) once in this relationship. It may make him think when he sees the control in your hands and you will feel so much better about yourself, at least I hope so. You do deserve to feel much better about yourself. I don't think he is going to do that for you.

anna - you are married to a monster of a sex addict. That's why he behaves the way he does and treats you so horribly.

MB programs do not work when there is addiction to a behaviour or a substance.

There is nothing you can do to change an addict. They have to hit bottom and decide to change on their own - and they never do unless and until it becomes more painful to be an addict than it is to change.

This might help you understand the nature of addiction a little better:

Three Characteristics of an Addict
(by Mulan, compiled from multiple professional sources)

1) Lies. Addicts lie and lie and lie and lie some more. They lie and they hide things and they keep secrets, and they do this to protect their drug.

2) Escalation. Whether the addiction is chemical (like alcohol or heroin) or behavioural (like gambling or sex), the addict always needs more and more and more of the substance or behaviour over time to get the same high. They are literally burning out the receptors in the brain and it always takes a bigger hit to get a response.

If it's a substance, they need more of it and they need stronger doses. Alcoholics don't just drink a glass of wine at dinner - they progress to heavy doses of Jack Daniels. Heroin users progress to adding cocaine to the heroin to get a "speedball" - incidentally, speedballing is what killed both John Belushi and Chris Farley. And neither of them were speedballing on their first day of drug use.

If it's a behaviour, things get weirder and more extreme. Gamblers start making enourmous bets in order to get that same rush of excitement. Sex addicts need more partners, more porn and more extreme behaviour to get their same rush.

3) Selfishness. Addicts care about absolutely nothing and no one but their drug. They don't care about their spouses or their children or anyone else in their family. They don't even care about themselves, as they will readily destroy themselves if it means keeping their drug for one more minute. Selfishness and complete self-centeredness are the hallmarks of the addict.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Please get help for yourself. You may want to look up a group called "Recovery Nation", which specializes in dealing with sex addicts and their families.

You must protect yourself. You cannot help this man, but you can stop him from destroying you.

Mulan, how do you know for sure he is a sex addict? And not just a jerk and a liar?


I will think about filing first; I think it would be a good thing for me. I'll talk about it with my IC this afternoon.

I don't think he will take any action right away--he told me that I have to find a lawyer for us (he wants to do mediation) and get back to him about it. I know... right?

anna,

Check out what is available for you in your state. Does the fact that he had an affair make any difference? In my state my H could have buried me and dug me up and had sex with me before they would have ever considered anything his fault. See what your laws are. I would not do this for him, in fact I would not do anything for him. This should be for you.

You need to respect yourself and I say this with all the caring I can. I was you in many ways, my H was a bully and did whatever he pleased. He did not engage me to make himself feel good, he used me to cheat on to make himself feel good. If I had had any respect for myself or actually known what was going on (not enough respect for myself to find out) I would have been out of my marriage before I had children and I would not have to sit here wondering what I could have done with the 26 years of my young adulthood that I essentially let get pissed away by a rotten H. How sad to lose that much of your life to a lie. Don't do that, please.

If he won't work on this then there is nothing you can do except put yourself in the best, happiest place you can be.

anna, you already know what to do. You knew it when you posted that first post. Jennifer even told you what to do. Have you been in Plan A all of this time? Because you know that isn't healthy for you.

When I was reading your first post on this thread all I could see was an abused wife. I don't know if it is physical(although the alarm clock thing is scary) but it is most definitely emotional. Your WH is an abuser and most definitely a sex addict. To spend $200-$600 a month on porn is definitely a sex addict.

Here is something I found off of google. There are a lot more. Just google, "Signs you're a sex addict."


Does this sound like your husband? It does to me.

There is a lot to think about but I think the best course for you right now would be to go into a pitch black Plan B. Not just for your marriage but for YOU. You can do this. We will be here to help.

Does the answer to this question matter Anna? Personally, I think he is both. Go back to KA's post and re-read it. You need to stop enabling his bullying and his controlling abuse by cutting him off completely. Get into Plan B and block all means of communication.

Do it yesterday.

I usually just lurk and have no posts, so it's ok if you don't lend me much credibility but as someone who was in an emotionally, verbally, financially, and sexually abusive relationship, I was floored reading your post. It is very triggering to me, he sounds so much like my ex.

Please, please know that this is abuse and it is not ok. Just from what little you have posted, he is vile and manipulative and will likely go out his way to hurt you through the divorce. You are a thing to him, not a person. And though he spouts threats of divorce to manipulate you, he is likely in no hurry to actually file. He wants you in his control, not out of it, and prolonging the divorce process is a great way to do that.

Please do file first and get things started, and I also recommend going completely no contact. I know it's a part of plan B, and it's usually prescribed for trying to fix the marriage, but if I understand it right, it's also supposed to help you with your own recovery. Getting completely away from his hatred by going no contact would be a good start. Freedom is a long hard process sometimes, but it is a very worthy destination.

Finally, if I may, I really recommend Lundy Bancroft's book 'Why Does He Do That?' It's a very insightful book on the dynamics of abusive relationships. (I hope it's not a no-no to post recommendations for other books than the MB ones, I did glance through the rules, so I apologize if I've made a mistake!) It sounds like you have a very good IC. I bet she's heard of it, you might ask her if she thinks you might get anything out of it. I know a lot of women (and men) who have.

Great advice from a newbie, anoni_mouse! You should post more often. What's your story?

Good opening post anoni_mouse! You should post more!

And, it's perfectly ok to recommend books to people. It happens all of the time here.

Thanks for the feedback! I don't want to thread-jack so I'll try and keep it short. I originally actually found this place a few years back through the abuse support forum I still sometimes visit. I started reading here again when a good friend of mine discovered his wife's affair. They are currently legally separated. I did send him here, but he went back and forth on how hard he wanted to try and get the marriage to work. He seems to have called it quits now, but for the future of my own (currently wonderful) relationship, I've found the MB philosophy very insightful so I'm sticking around, reading, and learning

Anna, I think your husband may be a psychopath. Please read what I have posted below and see if it sounds like your husband.

A psychopath will use people for excitement, entertainment, to build their self-esteem and they invariably value people in terms of their material value (e.g. money, property, comfort, etc..). They can involve and get other people into trouble quickly and they seem to have no regret for their actions. To date there is no checklist of behavior and symptoms that will tell you with certainty whether or not a person is a psychopath. But there are warning signs.

Characteristics of a Psychopath
superficial charm
self-centered & self-important
need for stimulation & prone to boredom
deceptive behavior & lying
conning & manipulative
little remorse or guilt
shallow emotional response
callous with a lack of empathy
living off others or predatory attitude
poor self-control
promiscuous sexual behavior
early behavioral problems
lack of realistic long term goals
impulsive lifestyle
irresponsible behavior
blaming others for their actions
short term relationships
juvenile delinquency
breaking parole or probation
varied criminal activity

The idea that psychopaths eat people is a myth. In reality, a person with a psychopathic personality can lead what appears to be an ordinary life. They can have jobs, get married and they can break the law like anyone else. But their jobs and marriages usually don't last and their life is usually on the verge of personal chaos. They are almost always in some kind of trouble or they are not far from it.

A psychopath is usually a subtle manipulator. They do this by playing to the emotions of others. They typically have high verbal intelligence, but they lack what is commonly referred to as "emotional intelligence". There is always a shallow quality to the emotional aspect of their stories. In particular they have difficulty describing how they felt, why they felt that way, or how others may feel and why. In many cases you almost have to explain it to them. Close friends and parents will often end up explaining to the psychopath how they feel and how others feel who have been hurt by him or her. They can do this over and over with no significant change in the person's choices and behavior. They don't understand or appreciate the impact that their behavior has on others. They do appreciate what it means when they are caught breaking rules or the law even though they seem to end up in trouble again. They desperately avoid incarceration and loss of freedom but continue to act as if they can get away with breaking the rules. They don't learn from these consequences. They seem to react with feelings and regret when they are caught. But their regret is not so much for other people as it is for the consequences that their behavior has had on them, their freedom, their resources and their so called "friends." They can be very sad for their self. A psychopath is always in it for their self even when it seems like they are caring for and helping others. The definition of their "friends" are people who support the psychopath and protect them from the consequence of their own antisocial behavior. Shallow friendships, low emotional intelligence, using people, antisocial attitudes and failure to learn from the repeated consequences of their choices and actions help identify the psychopath.

Psychopaths with low intelligence or a poor education seem to end up in jail more than ones with a higher education. The lack of emotional insight is the first good sign you may be involved with a psychopath. The second best sign is a history of criminal behavior in which a person does not seem to learn from their experience, but merely thinks about ways to not get caught.

There is a growing discussion among researchers to suggest there may be a genetic influence that creates a psychopathic personality. The psychopath may lack the ability to physically feel what others identify as the physical sensation of guilt. They can feel fear, anger, sadness in the moment but not guilt for what they did or what they are about to do. Some sociologists believe that a sexually promiscuous psychopath who can live off others is a survivor and may represent one of many genes for survival in the human species. Even more surprising has been the observation that many adult psychopaths do not seem to benefit from support, counseling or therapy and may in fact commit crimes again and sooner because of it. Research using brain scanning technology has revealed that the brain of a psychopath functions and processes information differently. One famous brain imaging study showed that psychopaths can remain calm looking photos of dead bodies in automobile accidents where as other people were clearly upset. They don't use their brain they way others do. This suggests that they may be physically different from normal people.

Please stick to one thread. Let me backup everything that has been said.

You�re in an abusive relationship. My impression is that you�re a woman who has very little self esteem. Well, buck up!

You deserve better than this. Look at how he reacted when YOU took charge and said you had enough. He stopped bullying and started working with you until you went back to your old patterns of letting him bully you.

NEVER beg on your knees again. Not a single person on this planet deserves that. Kneel to God and no one else.

I say that as someone who did so when I was threatened by someone who was manipulative as well.

Feelings will follow your actions. Take the actions. File first, leave this loser, and consider yourself lucky to do so before he hurt you physically. You can do better.

There�s good men out there of all shapes and sizes and temperaments who are massive upgrades over what you have now.

Wow, just wow...

What is easy for others to see, and hard for you to see is the way he pulls you back in and pushes you away. He has learned he can keep hooking you back in by threatening D, and can manipulate you to live with his addiction by making demands. And he can push you away by saying it is your fault and he is not changing.

SA, like so many addictions, is an intimacy problem. He will NEVER be a good H while he has an active addiction. Can you live with that? Not at the rate you are going...you are in survival mode.

You need a break. And no matter WHAT you do, nothing is going to change your M. He is putting the blame on YOU which is a huge lie. If he truly wanted a better M, he would do it... He doesn't. He wants to live in this chaos and addiction.

So what are you going to do? Check and see if you have a Co-Sex Addicts meeting near you, called COSA. Or check into Al-Anon. You will hear some VERY similar stories. Start looking at what healthy behavior is like.

It is hard for you to be a good judge of what is right or wrong in your M because you've been told for so long that a turd smells like a rose... Sorry for the horrible euphemism, but he has you very well trained. He will not leave you, but will try like the dickens to get you back, under his control. why would he want you to leave, he has you trained to beg for the M?

You will NEVER be able to please him. His addiction and behavior has made him a VERY unhappy person and he has looked for everyone and everything to fill it, except himself. And until he starts looking at himself, he is a very dangerous person. Do NOT bring a child into this environment...

How has addiction played a role in you childhood? I'd be willing to bet you have lived with it before.

I consulted with a lawyer about that in April. It makes no difference whether he had an affair, in the eyes of the court. And now that we have been separated for six months (as of late June), it's possible to file for irreconcilable differences, which he can't contest as easily.

My IC said today that she thinks he is going to put up a lot of resistance to getting divorced--basically, that WH getting divorced will be like WH on steroids. I think I just don't care much anymore. It felt good today not to talk to him at all and to just have some peace. Hopefully it keeps feeling like that.


I agree. I am already feeling like I lost my entire 20s. I don't want to waste anymore time... I just want to be happy and have kids with someone who, you know, isn't a jerk.


I think if he actually wanted a divorce, he'd find a lawyer. He wouldn't wait for me to find one for "us." That in itself is kind of ridiculous. I think do think he thinks I'm coming back. But nothing's changed. I've been in Plan A for way too long. I do think it's time for Plan D. And yeah, my IC is great. Maybe it doesn't sound like it, but I have made a lot of progress internally.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check my local B&N for it today or tomorrow. I am a teacher and off for the summer, so I have plenty of time to just read and do whatever I need to do. (Tonight, I am reading up on selecting a lawyer. And also looking at moving companies. It's probably smart to move all my stuff out--furniture and etc., I only took my clothes and things--before filing anything.)



This is all very true.


You know, the really weird thing is that I had a pretty good childhood. My parents are both great people, with no addictions or crazy drama, and they are still happily married after 37 years. They weren't always happy, but they worked through their problems, none of which involved other people. I was unpopular as a little kid--bullied a lot for being different and smart--and my brother died of brain cancer when I was in high school, but I wasn't abused or surrounded by people with poor boundaries. I was kind of the outgoing, leadership type through high school and college. Then I met WH. And, uh.... yeah. I changed, and not for the better.

Thanks everyone.

Anna,

I was in an abusive relationship when I was a teenager and young adult.

My BF would berate me and control me. It ultimately became a physically abusive situation.

I would apologize for HIS beating ME. Yep. I did that. On my knees.

He also gave me last chances to redeem myself. Told me that I was lucky that he was there for me, because nobody else would have me. At the time, I knew that he was right - he had put me in an emotional and mental position to believe this was true.

Then I began to understand that he was wrong, and that he was weak. I broke away from the relationship once, only to return again after he had "changed".

It got worse after that, after a sort of honeymoon phase where he was really good at making me believe he was better. He wasn't. He was just marking time.


I only found the courage to leave the final time after meeting my husband. I met my H on a Wednesday, (I didn't talk to him, just met him very briefly) and knew he was a terrific guy. I thought that this was the kind of man I needed in my life, that this was the kind of person who a woman should be around, that would be a man to have a true relationship with.

True to form, Friday night arrived, and my BF beat me up - again. This time he was vicious, and he beat me in public. The police put me in protective custody, as he took off out of town. I spent the night in the jail. When I called home from the jail to let my family know what happened, my DAD asked me, "What did you do that made him beat you up?" Yeah, that was some support, huh?

Anyway.

The next day, I went over to BF's house. I APOLOGIZED TO HIM FOR THE FACT THAT HE 'HAD' TO BEAT ME UP IN PUBLIC.

Yes, I did that. On my knees.

That was Saturday morning. Later that day, I went home. My brother and SIL were there, with my now-H. We talked all day, all night, and all day Sunday. Somewhere in there, he asked me to marry him. I said YES.

I called my BF on Monday, and told him that I was never going to see him again, that I was breaking up with him.

My BF was stunned. Of course.

He then asked, "Are you breaking up with me because I hit you?"

And I said, "Oddly enough, I SHOULD be. But no. I have found another man. I don't want to see you again."


My BF and I met and talked, several times, and he was like a little child. He was hurt, and tried to explain that he would change.

I was indifferent to him. I had the "love" beaten out of me, torn from me over the years of abuse.

All I had left for him was a grain of pity - because of his brokenness. I had found my own strength in knowing how weak he really was.


And how strong I really was in walking away.

Would I have left had I not found my H? I believe I would have, because the seed of thought had been planted, just in meeting him. I knew that feeling of meeting someone, and getting the feeling that there were relationships out there that did not include abuse, drama, hatred, cycles of rage, and all the rest that I was experiencing. Just meeting my H and hearing him talk with my brother and SIL made me see this.



Anna, you can - and should - divorce this man. Do not waste another day of your life chained to someone who values himself above all else, and who gets that value by stomping on YOUR emotion.

Because the next power play he gets is a physical one. Guaranteed.


SB

Anna,

Your story is heartbreaking. There can be, however, a happy ending to your story if you can find the strength to walk away and never look back. When I was your age, I was just beginning a career I loved. I had another year to go before I met my H and another four years to go before I had my first child.

Don't spend another moment worrying about whether you WH is a sex addict, a psychopath or just an abusive jerk. Don't spend any time thinking about him at all. Put your energy into getting the divorce done quickly and planning what the rest of your life will be like. Travel, reconnect with friends, move, go back to school, change your hair color, learn a new language, give your time to a good cause . . . A whole world of possibilities is there for you.

You mentioned moving your furniture and other things out of your house. If you do, please be safe. Check with a lawyer and the police to see what your options are.

Bea

Wow. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

I am not worried that things will become physical--after 10 years and the level of frustration he has experienced already, I think it would have already.

But I am planning on moving on.

He is posting things to his Twitter account. Things like "Time to make a drastic change" and how he's "done with inconsideration," etc. I am wondering if he is posting them to send me a "message" without actually contacting me... essentially, whether it's intended for me or whether it's not intended for me specifically, but just what he's really feeling. I am quite surprised. Usually he never shares anything personal with anyone... he is a very intensely private person. (His family does not even know that we have been separated for seven months.) I suppose no one he really knows follows his Twitter account, for the most part.

I think I am going to just stop using Twitter. I only signed up for it anyway to follow his account, and I guess I shouldn't be doing that anymore.

It only takes one time for it to become physical, and it could end badly.

You should stop using Twitter. It is just making you question things further. Hope on the Plan B bandwagon and take it to the next stop.

You CAN and SHOULD go into PLan B ASAP.

Now that you have made that decision, can I recommend that you go dark? Change your cell no, email, get an intermediary, and STOP looking at his FB or Twitter. This will help you in moving forward and focusing on your personal recovery...


ETA: oops, posted this and then saw Scotty posted something similar!

NP, sometimes it's the voice of MANY that is heard. Sometimes a reluctant BS needs to see that it is a majority that feels a certain way to know what is right, when they themselves are confused. This is a HARD step to take as a BS, and even harder when it is done as a personal recovery moment more than for marital recovery.

anna, I need to "3rd" this--no more twitter, FB, myspace, whatever. He is a deadly tumor that needs to be completely excised from your life.

I know this is hard--even without your years of emotional abuse. It is hard to look at this person you love and have built your life around and no longer recognize who they are. You question your own judgement in choosing that person to begin with. You question yourself as a spouse--if I had done this, or not done that, been more like this, etc. You fear you will never find another person who will love you. Better the devil you know than one you don't. You think of the years you have invested and you hate to see that go to waste. Could you make it for 30 more years like this?

I think many of us KNOW we deserve a true partner, but what we KNOW and what we FEEL do not always coincide, KWIM? We always think we can change that person if we just loved a little more, was more patient, etc--WRONG. And we all KNOW this mentally, yet for some dumb reason, most of us still try anyway. I think most understand that YOU can't change someone. THEY have to change themselves. Again, this idea is a also a mental quagmire because while we might KNOW something, it doesn't mean we always act accordingly. A dear friend I have been close to since HS is currently working on her master's in counseling. She learned that change almost always will only occur when a traumatic event has forced it (i.e.-divorce, health issues, accident, etc. In the case of MB principles, it would be like the Plan B letter slapping the WS back into reality). It makes complete sense to me.

Look at your marriage as if it were your friend's. What would you advise her to do? If you think you would tell her to get the hell out (and I think you would), why on earth then would you yourself stay? (I use this analogy because I am finding it helpful for myself). You need to RECOVER yourself and start to love yourself again.

In the end, you must decide, who is more worthy of your love--him or you? And lord help you if you say it's him.

No, I can't live like this forever. I know that it is the fear that's paralyzing me, and that I can't let it drive decisions. I know that I can't get security from a liar.

But dang, the fear is terrible. I woke up feeling sick to my stomach this morning...

Yeah, I can't see anything in my childhood either that would lead me to falling for an abusive partner. My H abuses me with neglect...he is withdrawn and unemotional, making jokes and small talk.

I am in personal recovery, been going to COSA meetings, and they are helpful.

The worst part of dealing with my relationship and recovery is realizing what part I have played in all this...not to blame me...but there is a reason I stay. There is something I get out of it.

For me, I realize that I am so craving love I would accept it from ANYONE. And the chaos of my M enables me to keep the focus off my own internal thoughts. This was and is a very tough pill to swallow, that although I am not responsible for my H's neglect and attitude towards me, I am signed on...everyday I stay it is like telling him "OK, abuse me some more, I am here to take it..."

I have had to start on a journey of soul searching and finding out about me. By having the chaos and anger in my life has kept the focus off of me and my wants and needs. I don't have to look at my part in this.

It is only through removing myself from the situation, not allowing myself to take responsibility for his actions, but by taking responsibility for myself I have begun to understand my own feelings and motives. When you are caught in the crisis and survival you don't have time to think of yourself...

Consider a recovery program. IC is great, but meetings help in between times, to have people to reach out to, people who have been there before, and to begin a healthier lifestyle.

I had plenty to point to in my childhood to explain choosing an abusive man.

None of that matters.


What matters is leaving him. Freeing yourself.


What matters is HOW to get past the fear.


Your fears include wondering how you will make it without him, but I am willing to be you have fears...........

about what HE will do without YOU.

You are worried about HIM, aren't you?


He is a big boy. He can handle this, and he will get over it. You do not need to prop him up. He will survive the blow to his ego.

In fact, this episode in his life could teach hime something. I say "could" - because that is the correct word. Chances are, it WON'T. This man is highly unlikely to make any changes, because he is staunchly opposed to believing he is wrong in anything.

You cannot change him, you cannot protect him, and your presence in his life does nothing to help him or prevent his eventual implosion.


Your fears for him - and your presence in his life - do not protect him from ANYTHING.


The fact is that your presence in his life, and his presence in yours, is toxic

to you

and you must shake loose your fears for him, of him, and of the future


for the sake of yourself and your future.



It is the only logical and safe thing for you to do. While this all seems easy for me to say


I have done it.


I do know how hard this is.


I have done it.

Fear and all.


Fear and all.



What I found was


I was amazingly strong


as soon as I walked away


and rid myself of the toxin.




SB

Actually, I am not worried about him at all. I am not sure I care how this affects him, at this point.

I am worried about me--not about whether I can survive without him, because I know that I can, but about whether I will ever have kids or remarry (or, if I remarry, whether it will really be much better). I am afraid of being lonely. But I already am, I guess, and I never will be less lonely until I get past this.

I am looking at lawyers online right now. But still feeling kind of queasy.

Your fears are no different then anybody else leaving a marriage. Nobody wants to be alone.

However, ask yourself, do you want this man to be the father of your children? Is he a 'safe' father? How will you feel when he starts to abuse and control your children? Because you can bet that he will. He is not husband or father material.

If you want a happy life and children then get the divorce done as quickly as you can so you can move on and find that happiness with somebody else! It's out there! He's out there!! The only thing keeping you from obtaining it is your fear that it isn't out there. But, believe me, it is and it's waiting for you..... You just have to have the courage to chase after it!

Question: he keeps threatening to take me off of his health insurance. Is it possible for him to just drop me? Or does he need to have proof of divorce and/or that I have obtained other insurance?

Sounds like you need to get to a lawyer ASAP and work out what he can and can't do right now until the D is final...

I suppose he could DO anything he wanted, he could tell anyone anything and probably will. He will drag a D out as long as he can because he knows by keeping the chaos going he's got an active participant in his game.

What are your options for healthcare? Talk with a lawyer about all the things he has threatened and they can make sure all the bases are covered in an interim separation/divorce decree...

He will continue to threaten. Do you have an IM in place? Do you have someone who will filter out all the anger and nonsense?

May I suggest you look at the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker?

Great book and a very good suggestion.

Now he's calling me and leaving me messages about how he doesn't want to get divorced, how he wants to work it out, etc. He said that we can go to lawyers if I want--we agreed to do mediation, which costs only $1500 total and takes only two months, instead of court, which will take a year--or the other "option" is that if I apologize, then we can discuss my concerns separately, afterward, and he's willing to address them.

I know that according to MB advice I shouldn't be taking his call at all. But I want to do mediation instead of litigation divorce because it's supposed to be cheaper and faster, so I think I have to talk to him. If it's Plan D instead of Plan B, does it really matter?

When I talked to him, I told him that I won't be treated this way anymore and that I am not going to be under his thumb. That when he was telling me I needed to "convince" him to stay married to me, he was unconvincing me. That he was more concerned about winning the battle than he was with the "war" to stay in love. That all he had done was prove he hadn't changed at all since January, and that telling me I had to "convince" him or apologize the "right" way was was not any different than telling me I needed to beg him, and that I was never going to do that. That his insistence on my apologizing first was just more control and his obsession with being "right" and my being "wrong." That I wasn't going to take his "option" and was going to make the appointment with a lawyer.

I know there are different options for divorce... mediation, collaborative divorce, and litigated divorce. Which ones have you guys done? What did you think of them?

I am thinking I want to do mediation or collaborative and stay out of court. I just want to be done quickly and inexpensively, with the least amount of stress possible. (I mean, I know it's divorce and therefore stressful. I just want to minimize it.)

I decided to make the appointment with the lawyer by myself, so I could look at the different options alone and decide myself.

Jesus, I'm afraid of being alone and never having kids. I'm not afraid of being raped or beaten. What am I supposed to get out of this book?

Now that's a line for stand up comedy - a bit of humor to spice up the pain.

You need to read that and go "really?" "Seriously?"

You're very young. You might feel a biological clock ticking but think woman think! Surely there's a more qualified father out there for your babies!

Work on your man picker and your standards of what you'll tolerate!

I had to read that at least three times before I saw what was funny about it... just goes to show where my head is. Thanks!

I hear you on this one, anna. My H and I are the the exact opposite in your basic scenario--he is 30 and I am going to be 37 in 3 months. We have been together almost 9 yrs and today is our 7th wedding anniversary. No kids--I am terrified I will never have any now, but you know what, so be it then. I am not gonna worry about that right now.

You are 30--you still have plenty of time to find the right husband and father for you and your future children. Do you have TONS of time, no. I mean, let's be honest, neither of us are in our 20's anymore, but don't let this fear cripple you.

I don't mind being alone, but at the same time, I get lonely. Does that make any sense? My preference is to have a man to share my life with, but I don't NEED a man.

You have been with your H for so long, and you were so young when you got together, I think you may have forgotten who are you at this point. After my first divorce, I was heartbroken for 6 months. It is strange, but one day I just woke up and the pain was no longer there. I realized that XH leaving me was the best thing that could have happened to me. He and I were not meant for each other and I spent the next couple of years really finding out who I was as an individual.

I think the steps you are taking with finding a lawyer is a good sign that you are learning your own strength and independence again. Hold fast to that strength and let it conintue to guide you to a better you.

Anna and Invincible, I was a late bloomer and I was a Big Beautiful Woman. When I was 38, I met the most amazing man. We fell in love and we have a beautiful little girl. Don't give up.

You might wonder why I am here. I am here to improve my marriage. We have been togather for 15 years and things are a little stale and we are taking each other for granted.

Anna do you want to make a plan B? Either Plan B or D do not tolerate his emotional abuse.

I got this e-mail from him tonight. I have not replied. What do you all think?

"Hey,

I just wanted to tell you that no matter what happens, I still love you. I *always* will. You are the person I care about most in my life. You are the reason I have for living. When we end things, I don't intend on actually moving on. My life would be over as I know it. When we see the lawyer, honestly I don't really care about what to settle. I only really wanted your things here until that happens because I feel like part of you is here.

I don't know what to say anymore. All I wanted was for you to love me back. All I wanted was for you to be affectionate and considerate towards me. That's all I really wanted.

I was looking forward to live together again.
I was looking forward to visiting Barcelona together.
I was looking forward to having children together.
I was looking forward to being a family and being the stereotypical happy family.
I was looking forward to moving to our new permanent home.

I realize that the past few days haven't been good for either of us. I'm sorry I got upset at you. I think we got lax with the book again - we haven't built it up as a habit, which we should have done. But still, I'm telling you that I'm sorry. I'm telling you that I'll be considerate towards your feelings and try to understand you, particularly during times of conflict. Even when we end things, I'll try the best I can.

I think you've made your decision already and maybe it's for the best. Maybe we have issues that can't be fixed. Still, I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry and that I'll always love you. Please let me know when the appointment will be.

Love, WH"

My response. I didn't send it, I know it's not an appropriate Plan B/D letter, I just wrote it because it made me feel better...

"Dear WH,

You say that I am the reason you have for living. What do you need me for? You have a relationship with porn and your computer, and apparently one that's more fulfilling than the one you have with me, because you were willing to sacrifice everything with me, lie to me, keep passwords and credit cards from me, in order to continue that "relationship." So go ahead. Take your laptop into the bathroom and make love to it. Have kids with it. Live the rest of your life with it. I mean, it doesn't have any feelings for you to worry about or any relationship you have to worry about maintaining. And you can control it completely.

All I wanted was someone who loved and respected me, and who was kind, faithful, and honest with me. I deserved them, because I was always loving, honest, and faithful to you, but I didn't get them. You tell me all you wanted was consideration and love? You had those things. You had them, but you didn't deserve them because you threw them away like trash when you had your affair with N------, when you lied to me for seven years, when you threatened over and over again to divorce me, and when you tried to control me and blame me for your behavior.

You're sorry you got upset? What does that even mean? You told me that my fears about your adultery and porn use were insulting and obsessive. No--they are reasonable and based on seven years of HARD experience. I would be an idiot not to have fears about that, especially when you flatly refuse to be open and honest with me. We can't have joint credit cards. I can't see what you're doing on the computer. I can't ask for any more passwords. I can't ask any questions about your affair or your porn use. "What's in the past is in the past," you say. WTF is that? I have no way of knowing what's in the past or not, because you are a liar and you refuse to provide me with the evidence. You say I am snooping. No. I am protecting myself. I am trying to understand whether what you tell me about our life and our marriage is reality or whether it's just more lies.

And what you don't say is this: My behavior is wrong and I repent from it. I am willing to be honest and open. I am willing to have the conversations you want to have, for as long as you want to have them, as many times as you want to have them, and I will not force you into silence. I will be humble because I am wrong. I am willing to address all your fears, because I know that they are reasonable and that I created them. I am sorry that I have traumatized you so much. I am sorry that I was so weak that I brought this crap into our lives. I am sorry that I betrayed you. I am a low-down, vile adulterer who doesn't deserve to be loved by you, but I will work tirelessly to become a person who does deserve it.

You say I should just "trust" you. But I did--for years--and look what it got me: a lying, perverted, abusive, adulterous a---ole. So, no, I'm not just going to "trust" you. You want trust? Then start by taking a lie detector test. And putting me on all your credit cards. And getting a complete evaluation by a neuropsychiatrist. And logging me in as the administrator on your computer, so I can install a keylogger, and so I can change the administrative password so that you can't turn it off. And giving me your laptop to hold onto, so that you can't use a computer unless you are at work or in my direct line of sight. And switching phones with me so that you have the Razr and I have the smart phone, so that I can see the records of everything you do, instead of it just being "data usage." And confessing to your parents and my parents who you really are and what you have done.

You say I am obsessive and just won't let go. Well, you're right, I'm not going to let it go. No one in their right mind or with any self-respect would let it go, and you're a fool for thinking that I should. Moreover, you have not shown that you have changed in anything but the most superficial ways.

The appointment with the lawyer is on Thursday. F--k you."

Okay. So. Someone with a cooler head than me, help me turn this into an appropriate response.

Anna, yeah...that letter...you are right. It is NOT a good Plan B letter.

OTH...

it is a simply fabulous letter to help you boost your own sense of self-worth--which you DESERVE!

Frankly, if you are positive, no doubt, no way in h**l you will change your mind, gonna divorce him, then I wld say to h**l with it and send it anyway. (I stipulate of course this is not MB and I am a total novice at MB and am still flying by the seat of my pants)

however...

if you feel you might still want this marriage, yeah, best to just keep it to read to yourself :o)

ETA: I LOVE your closing line

Anna,

His email to you was the other side of the vicious circle. He has been intimidating and abusive to try to get what he wants and you have resisted. Now, he is trying to put some sugar and spice on the turd to get you accept it. At the end of the day it's all about manipulation. He just wants to get what he wants and he will use any means to do so. It's the old carrot and stick but it's being used by the abuser on you instead. You do realize this right? You do realize that even if he agreed to be O&H and give all passwords, etc. that it would be short lived? My guess is that he will agree to virtually anything right now because he feels you slipping away. He is losing ocntrol and it's making him crazy. Don't fall for this manipulation. Remain strong.

My suggestions would be to not respond to him at all. I have to admit that I like your letter and I think it did alot of good for your own self-esteem and strength to write it but I would not send it. No response is what is called for here. That is excruciating for a manipulator.

Let him wonder. He's left you in that position enough times hasn't he?

Anna, I'm no expert, but, I think he's just scared he's about to lose his favorite punching bag. You. He's trying to reel you back in and will say anything to do so. What has changed between now and his last communication? Nothing but you seeming more determined to leave him.

That's not enough.

I'd send the letter, but I'm impulsive like that - it may be best to just let it lie - and not respond.

Continue on with your proceedings.

You should not consider giving this relationship another chance until you have seen consistent, long term, behavioral changes in his ACTIONS. Ignore anything he may say.

SEND IT!

It will give him an awesome slap in the face!!

I disagree with sapphire.

Sending it will do nothing to change him or his behavior.

You cannot reason with a manipulator. He will use it to try to hone in on what is that you want and then offer that to you to try to get you back in the fold.

He will not feel a slap in the face. He will probably explode back at you as he moves to the other end of the spectrum of control and manipulation.

Sending the letter gets you nothing.

Not responding and leaving him to wonder is actually the ultimate torture for a abuser and a manipulator. He wants and needs the drama. Don't give it to him.

I agree with mindshare on this one. As great as the letter is, and as empowering as it feels, I think you come out more ahead if you ignore his latest missive and focus on your plan.

FWIW, I also can see your H being angry and lashing out if you send him the letter - and if you want a clean break, as quickly as possible, with your D, then you might be asking for trouble w/ the letter.

Also agree that your H will feel more by you completely ignoring him than by you entering back into the push-and-pull manipulation cycle he's got you on.

He needs to hit bottom. You need to protect yourself.


*Disclaimer: I don't have much experience with situations like this, but I will share my thoughts on the matter and hope some of it helps.

Actually it will, it will give her a chance to let him know exactly what she is feeling. I was not the only one that said send the letter as well if his next email is nasty and mean, then Ana that is your evidence that he will never change, and I would not respond to him anymore.

Who ever this man is Ana, he is very dangerous, and I agree with mindshare when he says...

"His email to you was the other side of the vicious circle. He has been intimidating and abusive to try to get what he wants and you have resisted."

Sapphire, why does he need to know what she is feeling? The fact that he's contacting her in the pseudo-contrite manner that he is suggests that he knows he might've gone too far with her. He knows she's not feeling all warm and fuzzy towards him right now.

I can see how sending the letter is a feel-good action, and how it does feel empowering. But I think a wiser course here is to disengage. Remove herself from the cycle.

Sorry, anna, talking about you like you're not here!

Again, I'm not experienced with this, these are only my impressions.

I said I'd send the letter - but I didn't say that was a good thing to do. I, rationally, agree with mindshare. She cannot allow herself to get sucked back into his abuse. More communication with her husband at this point allows him more opportunity to manipulate her emotions.



Proceeding with the divorce will leave him no doubt of how she is feeling.

She could craft another letter. A true Plan B letter to give him in the near future, laying out her needs for recovery. If she decides she may want to recover down the road.

But she needs to protect herself right now.

He needs to hit bottom.

He's drug her around and put her through too much already.

Anne,

Keep your email for yourself. Anytime you feel like you want to contact WH re-read that email you composed. It will help keep you focused on what you need to help yourself. It will continue to empower you each time you read it.

How do I know, I wrote a journal for myself when I was getting out of my abusive relationship. Years later, during a low point, I came across those writings again and boy did that rock my world. I was able to see how far I had come and was even more empowered by that.

So my advice is to print out the email you wrote and stick it in a favorite book. It will find its way back to you when you need it.

As far as your WH's email.... He is playing yo-yo with you. Since bullying you did not work, he is now trying to promise you the world. HE WILL NOT DELIVER THAT PROMISE. Nothing has changed. Ignore his email. If you feel like you need to respond, simply email him the time/date/location of the divorce proceeding. Nothing more.

Exactly my point Mrs. V!!! I agree 100%!

I think that writing the letter was very therapeutic and a good thing for Anna to do. I just see no value at all in sending it. I can pretty much guarantee that Anna has already said these things to him in the past and it hasn't mattered. It hasn't changed him before and it won't now. It just gives him his 'fix' of drama and it keeps him in the cycle of trying to push her buttons and manipulate. His response will certainly be hurtful and abusive. Why invite more of that?

I'll say it again. Not responding will be absolute torture for him. Let him squirm.

Anna -

Just a few comments from a newb.

- Reading your story I can't describe how sad I felt.

- Also felt so embarrassed for your husband. The fact that there are people in this world who can act like that - and think it's ok is absolutely dumbfounding

- I sense an awful lot of strength in your posts. I think in the coming months / years - you are really going to surprise yourself with how strong, competent, and together you become.

- I get that you're very much looking forward to having a family. I totally understand that. But go back and read your initial post here - and then picture what kind of a father this man would be. Picture how much worse he might get when there is a child in the mix - and he has a brand new tool for controlling you....the baby; the baby's future; the baby's happiness; etc; etc; etc.


You are getting some great advice from people - and you really seem to be considering it - so keep it up! you're doing great!

Good luck with the lawyer on Thursday!! Do you have someone coming with you for support? I have never been to a lawyer, but I would make sure I have all the paperwork that is needed.

Write the letter, but I don't see a need to send it. Maybe post it here if you want.

Just had a spat with saph's sister. Long story short; the focus was on how we were going to draw names for christmas this year. After trying to defend my wife and kids she began posting malicious things against us and the rest of saphs family, and saph's sister disowned her whole family over something so stupid.

The moral of the story? : When you wrestle with pigs, you get dirty (pigs like to roll in their own poop).

Good luck with the lawyer, spell out exataly what you want. Meaning I want to start the divorce but reserve the right to save my family, or whatever it is you think you want.

I don't think it's all as conscious and deliberate as that... I think he really doesn't fully understand what he is doing. My IC says that he lacks insight into his own behavior and is incapable of empathy... probably from the car accident he was in 14 years ago, where he suffered extensive brain damage and underwent a total personality change. He was also diagnosed as schizoaffective when he was 15, he comes from a background of a controlling and manipulative mother, and his culture is one that values face and privacy, not openness. So, I don't think he's calculating the way you all describe him--he just isn't. That doesn't mean that the behavior is tolerable. It just means that he's clueless.

I do think it would be short-lived, not because he is deliberately "trying" to suck me in and create control, but just because real change doesn't come without some sort of massive shift in perspective. He doesn't have that. It's all just temporary. He will make an honest effort and then fall back into the old patterns.


Ha. It does sort of feel poetic that way.

I strongly suggest you stop making excuses for his behavior or defending it. Ask yourself why you feel the need to defend his behavior or excuse it? It's called enablement.

There is no point in trying to blame it on a car accident, his upbringing, his culture, etc. An abuser is an abuser. He can end the cycle of abuse but he isn't doing it. You can argue whether his actions are intentional or not but it really doesn't matter. He is trying to manipulate you to get what he wants.

Why does society feel a need to always find an excuse or a condition or a label to explain bad behavior? Rhetorical question of course....

I agree 100%. I bet once it sinks in that he can't control her he will be seething with anger. Anna you have a rocky road ahead, stay strong.

That's bull. I'm not defending it. I'm saying that it's wrong to paint it as this deliberate and calculating, and there are real reasons why he has trouble seeing his own behavior for what it is. That doesn't mean the behavior is acceptable. Just because I'm fed up and leaving doesn't mean I'm going to create a false world and pretend that he is the devil or that he has motivations that I don't think he has. That's not honest or helpful either. The goal is to see reality for what it is, not create some caricature.

It isn't defending someone to say that false assumptions aren't helpful, both because it's not true and because it makes all the subsequent advice (because it's based on things that are not true) feel like it's bad advice that doesn't apply to me. Not every situation is identical.

This is not an apology letter. This is a letter about what HE wants.

Schoolbus, would you spell it out for me?

Good luck to you Anna!

Anna:

Regarding your letter, I don't know that it is Plan B or Plan D.


I do know it is


Plan FU.


If you send it, send it AFTER taking out any curse words. That is the only editing I would make.

It is not about "letting him know how you feel", and it is not about "revenge" and it is not about "venting".

It is about saying what you want to say, without holding anything back, and WITHOUT APOLOGY.

The fallout is that he will be angry.


You do have to understand one thing, however. He will not "get it". It will make no difference whatsoever in how he thinks, what he feels, or what he does with regard to other women.

It will only make him angrier.




His so-called apology letter is temporary at best. He will not stay in that frame of mind for long.

SB

SB I think Anna was asking for you to spell out for her why you don't think his letter was an apology letter.

Yeah, I was. Thanks suamico.

But I do agree he won't stay in this frame of mind for long.

I have a close friend who has been in an (emotionally) abusive relationship. Different than yours but I do see some similarities.

The thing is, as many times as she says it isn't what she wants and she has tried to end it, she seems to thrive off the push/pull dynamic. She wants to discuss/analyze things that he has said to her, texted her, why he behaves this way, etc, even when she says it's over.

I am not a professional and don't know what this is called, but it almost seems like an addiction.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is IMHO you need to go NC with him, the same way we advise waywards to go NC with their OP...in order to move on with your life. No discussing WHY he does this, his childhood, etc...this is going to keep you stuck...

Hey, In an apology letter, it is rare to open with a generic "Hey" and not a sincerity or endearment such as "My loving wife" or "Dearest Anna". "Hey" is quite ridiculously casual for an apology letter. It is insincere and distancing, also placing an almost humorous air to the letter.



I just wanted to tell you that no matter what happens This allows for a change of mind. , I still love you. I *always* will. The asterisks are meant to draw attention to the word "always", and to set it apart -in this case it has reduced the word, not enhanced it, removing the sincerity, and making the phrase's cliche notable. You are the person I care about most in my life. You are the reason I have for living. When we end things, I don't intend on actually moving on. Two things here: 1. He uses the term "when" we end things - which is HIS intention. 2. there is the veiled threat of stalking. My life would be over as I know it. An interesting turn of phrase - "as I know it. Not just..."My life would be over". He again reduces the phrase, and makes it insincere. When we see the lawyer, honestly I don't really care about what to settle. I only really wanted your things here until that happens because I feel like part of you is here. There are issues of control here - control over your things, and you. He states what HE wants, and the focus in this sentence is HIM. You need to see that.

I don't know what to say anymore. All I wanted was for you to love me back. All I wanted was for you to be affectionate and considerate towards me. He again states what he wants. But this is more about control over you, so that you meet his needs...it has nothing to do with his apologizing. That's all I really wanted.
again, what HE wants.



The third paragraph. Often the heart of the meaning of letters...let's see what he has to say:
I was looking forward to live together again.
I was looking forward to visiting Barcelona together.
I was looking forward to having children together.
I was looking forward to being a family and being the stereotypical happy family.
I was looking forward to moving to our new permanent home.

Wow. Looks to me like...manipulation, guilting you about some things that the two of you probably talked about once upon a time. Things you two probably "wanted" as a couple? Is this about an apology? Nope. It is about manipulating you back where HE WANTS YOU.

I realize that the past few days haven't been good for either of us. I'm sorry I got upset at you. I think we got lax with the book again - we haven't built it up as a habit, which we should have done. Did he take any blame here, or did he agree to hand over blame to you in some sort of 50/50 deal? But still, I'm telling you that I'm sorry. Ahhh, the "but". This sentence is what kills the apology! He says, "Ok, I said everything above, and now, look, I see that YOU have half the blame, and *I* will even take some of the blame and I will go ahead and apologize. EVEN THOUGH my belief is that YOU should be the one apologizing." The "but" removes his concession regarding the blame he has taken, his "seeing his half" of the blame that he appears to agree to in the 50/50 deal immediately preceeding this statement. I'm telling you that I'll be considerate towards your feelings and try I like that he offers to "try" to understand you. Again, he leaves himself an out, so that he can say that he "tried". to understand you, particularly during times of conflict. Even when we end things, I'll try the best I can.

I think you've made your decision already and maybe it's for the best. Maybe we have issues that can't be fixed. Still, I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry and that I'll always love you. Please let me know when the appointment will be. It is only here that he seems to realize that you are done, and that he knows his letter will not work. He probably knows because it is not written with any sincerity. He is somewhat resigned to a divorce in this letter, as though it ids a done deal for him. The overall tone of the letter is not an apology - it is a manipulation.

Love, WH"

Does that help, Anna?

That is what I saw SB.
Anna,
Even if you don't see what we see please keep an open mind to the idea that you are too close to the situation to see it for what it is.

Thanks, SB.

What should I actually send back to him? (A question not just for SB, but for everyone.)

My vote: nothing.

Meet the lawyers as planned.

If you are open to repairing the marriage begin drafting a Plan B letter to give him. Set the standards for recovery VERY high. Look at ACTION not words.

You need to protect yourself from his manipulation and abuse.

Anna,

Just send him the date and time of the appointment you need him at. Nothing more.

This will be your best bet as he can not twist anything you say to try to manipulate you.

Yes I agree with the others he is trying to manipulate you. If you would like some proof, look at the text msgs he sent you the other day and then re-read schoolbus' translation of his last email.

I agree, just send him the court date, time and location. NOTHING else. I am pretty sure he will e-mail or call you to find out what you thought of his apology letter. Ignore his attempts to engage you. You only have one day until the appointment.
I thought the text messages were way over the top. Anna, you know that sick feeling you get when he try's to manipulate you? When you get that feeling you have to realize you feel that way because you know it is wrong. The conversation can not continue to spiral out of control if you don't respond. Then he will just talking to himself.

Send only the date and time of the meeting. Get ready for some more anger. He is going to act like a child after you have taken away his favourite new toy.

I think I am willing to save my marriage. What do I say in my Plan B letter? It's not about ending an affair.

If you are truly willing to try to save your marriage, then you will need to have some conditions ready. What would your H have to do to make this marriage work?

Why don't you give it a go with a letter and we will edit it out. You should include some happy memories and how you have been hurt in these past few months(years?). What conditions you would need met before you would be willing to communicate with your WH again.

Abusers do not recover well, Anna. Manipulators simply take your list of conditions and put on the show to reel you back in and then everything goes back to what it was.

I hate to see you lose the advantage of youth to start over with someone who is not personality disordered/mentally ill.

Have you considered that your Plan B recovery conditions would need to include a full mental health diagnostic battery and intense therapy for him?

Plan A never works on an abuser. Plan B simply challenges them to break down your protective walls and can endanger you more.

I'm sorry Anna. I simply believe Plan D is the only way to insure your safety.

If he were to ask what he needs to do to get you back, and you said, a thorough and complete check up from the neck up, then serious treatment, I'm thinking he would not give your request a serious thought on the hope for the mildest reaction - his strongest reaction may be something on the abuse scale you've never seen before. Just saying.

And the only hope your marriage has is if he does just that. Get serious and long term behavioral modification therapy that gets down to the way he thinks about life. I don't think he has it in him. He'll move on to an easier target before he does.

It's kinda like this.....

Asking your WS go to MC, and they go JUST so you can be happy that they are "trying" to fix the marriage, but in reality all the WS is doing is buying them some more time to be married because they want both worlds, a wife, and a g/f.

When we were going to MC I only wanted to do is so wheels can see that I was "trying" to fix the marriage, but guess what? I didn't care for the MC, I lied to the MC TOO! MC doesn't work if the WS doesn't want it to work. And trust me we are all like that!

Your husband will look at the conditions, and say he will do them, but in his mind he is laughing because he knows it is buying him some more time with you.

Sweetie, actions speaks louder then words!

I personally believe that Anna should go straight to Plan D, thing is, SHE doesn't want to.

Maybe some time in Plan B will give her a clearer head and she will be able to determine what SHE really wants and needs. There is a lot of strength you get while in Plan B and I am helping her with what she wants to do.

Anna, I will say that I was SHOCKED to read that you wanted to give your marriage another shot. I am not SURPRISED, though. In that end, I will help you with what you have chosen, although it goes against what I would do. Throw your Plan B letter up here and we'll have a look at it for you. Just remember to remove real names and paces.

I agree with KA's requirements (among others) for recovery.

I also feel you should continue with the D. You can give him the Plan B letter after the D is finalized if you want. Let him know if he really is interested in keeping you so much, this is what it would take to get you back (no guarantee's you'll want to get back together whenever he shapes up though), but for now you must protect yourself and break free of him.

See, he has to change because he recognizes that these changes are good and necessary for a healthy relationship. He has to change because he WANTS to change, not out of fear of losing you. So, he has to lose you. The current dynamic is as not good for him as it is for you. He is not capable, now, of the true remorse needed to execute a change. You sticking around, letting him jerk you around, letting him slip that leash back around you - is just as detrimental to his personal development as it is to yours.

Let him go. Let him CHOSE to improve himself. If you want, crack a door open for him to come back if you WANT him to (a Plan B letter).

My money is on him not really ever changing. He said he'd never give you up, but that's just a manipulation to get you back.

Go through with the D. For both your goods.

I told myself I wouldn't post to you again because I don't think that you are getting real with yourself and you are enabling an abuser. The advice here from a wide range of people seems to be pretty consistent. There is very little chance he will change. Plan D is in order so you can get on to that life you want. Plan B is a waste of time here in my opinion and keeps you from where you really want to go.

Ok. I'm out. But, one last thing I just have to get off of my chest. PLEASE DO NOT GET PREGNANT AND HAVE CHILDREN WITH THIS ABUSER!!!!!!!!!!!! The only thing I hate to think of more then you getting abused (and I am on your side even though you don't see it) is some poor innocent children getting abused because you can bet your life that he will abuse them too.

Please read your original post again. Read the letter you wrote again. He IS "a lying, perverted, abusive, adulterous a---ole." What you are going through now is called a 'hoover.' He's pulling out all stops to suck you back in.

And as for starting a family? I know far too many women whose biggest regret is that they had children with a man like the one you are with. Because someday when you get finally fed up, even if it's for no other reason than to protect your children, because believe me he will turn his anger towards them, and then divorce from an abusive man with kids involved years from now? Custody? It's a nightmare. And then what happens when your children, who have learned by example, start abusing you too? Or abusing others? It happens, and it's so very hard.

Please consider reading here, maybe even copy your original post over?: http://www.our-place-online.net/

Whether you decide to stay "in" this relationship or not, there's a lot of women there who have been (or still are) where you are now and they do offer great support.

Did you have communications with your H that brought on this change of heart?

Please break this cycle. Go dark and stop letting yourself get sucked in to this dynamic. I am worried about you.

I went to a lawyer yesterday morning for the initial consult. She said I should get copies of records and etc. So I went over to the house and copied all the files on his laptop onto a remote hard drive. He is in data security, so he could tell from work that I had logged onto the network at the house. Apparently, he got really hopeful that this meant I would be waiting for him when he got home from work and we could talk.

I left around 4:30, since he gets home around 5. He called as soon as he got home: "You were here. What did you copy from my laptop, and where's the remote hard drive?" He eventually went on to say that he had been hoping I'd be there and we could talk. I said, "What is there to talk about? I'm not going to live like this anymore. I can't live with someone I can't trust, or someone who treats me the way you do."

It was a long conversation--five hours--but essentially, he said that he doesn't really want a divorce. I told him that he needed to be honest, and that he seemed to believe that there were "degrees" of honesty. That even though he was being more open since I left in January, he still wasn't being completely open. He said there was no point in talking about the past, and that he didn't think I was ever going to let things go, no matter how open he was. I said that his ongoing refusal to talk about it just continuously convinced me more that I needed to know, because people don't hide things unless there was something to hide.

He eventually told me--and I am taking this with enough salt to line a margarita--that he had met OW (a 19-year-old tarot card reader) in the summer of 2006 because she was the girlfriend of his friend A, a coworker from a company he worked at over 10 years ago. Talked to her on his blog site. Started IMing her. She made him "feel cared about" and said complimentary things to him. A was cheating on OW. He felt unfulfilled in our marriage, like we were just roommates and never talked (which we didn't, but he bit my head off if I interrupted his 6-7 hours nightly on the computer). He was unhappy with me, so he left me and flew out to NY to meet her. They went to a shopping area and wandered around. Talked. Hung out again the next day. He came back. They kept talking online, several nights a week. He claims that he was starting to miss me (but was not behaving like it), but thought it would be "better for me" if I found someone else and hated him. He flew out there a second time a month later. They hung out for a few hours. He knew it wasn't going to work out because they lived too far apart. Maybe she could've been his girlfriend if they lived closer, but not at this distance. So they just said goodbye. (This was Dec. 2006.) And he spent the rest of the weekend hanging out with his friend S instead. Then he came back and decided he wanted to get together with me. He'd been missing me the whole time. He claims: he never kissed her, never held her hand, never slept with her, etc. "It wasn't what you think."

Me: If it wasn't what I think, why did you delete your MySpace as soon as I tried to friend you?
Him: "Because I never used it."
Me: I don't believe that. You were friends with OW on MySpace. You deleted it because you didn't want me to see something.
Him: "I just wanted that part of my life to be over and gone."
Me: So then why did you delete your blog as soon as I asked you for the password to that? You were trying to delete the evidence there too.
Him: "I just wanted it to be over. It's like a diary. You don't need to see everything."
Me: I noticed on the credit card receipts a charge to rename a journal. What was that for?
Him: "I changed the name of the journal."
Me: What's your new name?
Him: "[URL]."
Me: You should put me on the friends list so I can see.
Him: "I can put you on the friends list, but all my posts are private now." (He adds me.)
Me: Then give me the password so I can see.
Him: "No. You don't need to see that."
Me: If you're willing to share those thoughts with strangers, you should be willing to share them with your wife.
Him: "You have a blog and you don't share that with me."
Me: You're right, I don't. If you want the password to it, you can have it right now. But I warn you that you won't like what you read. All the entries for the past four years are about how you made me miserable. And the difference between my blog and yours is that yours was the vehicle for your affair.
Him: "You just keep pushing and pushing. It never ends. It's never going to end. I'm putting my foot down here. I'm not giving you the password. I'm just going to delete it."
Me: If you delete it, you will be telling me that there's something to hide. I will be seriously offended by that.
Him: "I'm not giving you the password. I'm putting my foot down."
Me: And again, it's degrees of honesty with you--as if you think there's someplace between honest and not honest.
Him:"I just don't think this is going to work. Goodbye."
Me: Fine.
Him: "Let me know what you want to do."
Me: I have a lawyer.
Him: "Think about it and let me know tomorrow if I should get a lawyer."
Me: I'm not going to call you tomorrow.
Him: "Let me know tomorrow. Goodbye." And then he hung up on me.

I didn't call him today, as he wanted me to. He started texting me and calling me as soon as he got home from work. Here is what he texted me (or what he called/left voicemails about).

5:21 p.m.: Hi. What did you decide?
5:38 p.m.: Hello?
5:40 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:42 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:45 p.m.: (Calls my phone from a disguised number. Leaves a message that basically says, "Hi... I don't know why you're not answering my calls. I just want to talk about this for a few minutes. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. Call me when you get this.)
5:50 p.m.: (Calls my parents' house, where I am living. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:53 p.m.: Do you want to resolve this or not? Please let me know.
6:00 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Leaves a message that basically says, "Hi... I don't know why you're not answering my calls. I thought we had an okay conversation yesterday. Please call me as soon as you get this.")
6:10 p.m.: I'll come over [to your parents' house] if you don't want to talk over the phone. Would that be okay?
6:26 p.m.: I'm not going to stop trying to contact you until I talk to you. Please give me a call as soon as you can.
6:50 p.m.: Sigh. I'm sorry for everything I did. Everything. I was willing to do it your way. I don't know why you are doing this. It's not helping. Please call.
7:05 p.m.: I know you checked my voicemails [he must have logged online to see my minutes usage] -- why won't you call?
7:09 p.m.: This is probably doing more harm than good. Please call me.
8:40 p.m.: Do you want the blog password? I'm prepared to have a calm and civil conversation with you. I just need you to call, text, or anything. Anything.

Okay. I have not said anything in response or answered my phone. What do you think?

I call BULL CHIT. You already know what we all think. You need to end contact with him my dear. This is going to continue to be your life forever. It gets way more complicated with a child. Please listen to the other posters on here.

I agree with Vibrissa and Scotland. Plan D is what is best for your own emotional and physical safety. Yes, if he one day makes the changes needed and can become a better person, who knows what the future might hold? Maybe you and he can then reconnect. The problem is, anna, YOU have to want better for yourself. YOU have to remember all the evidence he has shown in the last 10 years that have led you to this point.

I know it's hard to think of saying goodbye, despite everything that has transpired. Making the decision to let go--and then actually LETTING GO--are so easy to say and so hard to put into practice. Believe me, just about EVERYONE in this forum can empathize with that.

Re-read your letter that you posted and ask yourself again if you really want this man as your husband.

If he would change, so that he wasn't controlling during conflict and so that he was transparent, I would want to be married to him. It seems like now is the right time to give him a Plan B letter that lays out what I want from him. Maybe he'll do it. Maybe he won't. Isn't it worth a shot?

If you are going to go into PLan B, make sure you are DARK. By that I mean NO CONTACT. You may even need to go to someone else's house for a few days, since your WH has threatened to come see you. You will expect him to try very hard to see you. Make sure he can't find you or contact you. Who would you use as an IM? It would be strictly for finances.

I am a little afraid for you to be absolutely honest. PLease make sure you check in every few hours so we know how it is going.

Let me make myself clear, I DO NOT THINK YOU SHOULD GO TO PLAN B. I THINK YOU SHOULD GO TO PLAN D. But, since you want to do PLan B, I will help you with that.

Thank you, Scotland. I will go dark and see what happens. He will not really come to my parents'; he is kind of afraid of my mother. But I know where I can stay, if necessary.

I saw the sample letter MelodyLane posted on another thread. Mine will be different because I know OW has been gone for 3.5 years. My main question is, what do I need to ask for? I want to be reasonable, but also make sure it is a thorough/effective set of requests.

Unconditional surrender - how ever you word it - that's what you need. He needs to surrender all of his old stuff/beliefs, his rights to secrets, his power-over treatment of you.

I really don't know how to craft a Plan B letter for this situation. Because he needs to be asking what he needs to do then doing it without reservation, not telling you what you need to do or accept.

****edit****

He kept calling and texting me all Friday night and Saturday morning. I didn't answer anything and turned off my phone eventually. Then he showed up at my parents' house around 2:00.

This is what he said:

Him: Why won't you answer any of my calls or messages?
Me: I don't want to. I'm tired of this. I'm done.
Him: I thought we had a good conversation on Thursday.
Me: That conversation ended with you refusing to give me the blog password, telling me that we needed a lawyer, and hanging up on me. That's not a good conversation.
Him: I'm sorry. What do you want?
Me: Nothing. I am tired of being abused by you. I want to go find someone who will just be kind and honest toward me. I wish you would leave.
Him: I'm sorry I treated you the way I did. I don't want to be this person. I will do anything you want. You can set the terms.
Me: I don't want anything.
Him: I will go to counseling and sign a post-nuptial agreement saying that if I abuse you again, you get everything.
Me: You don't want to go to counseling. And those agreements frequently aren't enforceable. And anyway, I'm going to be 31 soon. All I want to do now is find someone nice to have kids with and have them. You'd just abuse kids too, and then I'd have to worry about custody.
Him: I don't want to be like this. I don't like what I've been doing. I want things to be different.
Me: For how long? A week? A month? A year? Until we have kids? I know how this works. You promise me everything just to get me back, there's a honeymoon period, and then it starts all over again. That's the cycle of abuse. I'm not starting this cycle again.
Him: It won't start again. I don't want to be this person. I'll stay in counseling as long as it takes. If we had kids, you could have 100% custody. No visitation for me. I would put it in the agreement.
Me: That's probably not enforceable. Plus, I'd have to prove that you were emotionally abusing me, and that would be almost impossible to do. And then I'd be raising kids by myself. Why would I want to do that?
Him: What do you want? I'll do anything.
Me: You would give me the passwords to everything?
Him: Yes.
Me: You would let me install a keylogger on your computer, and let me change the administrative password so you couldn't uninstall it?
Him: You can install a keylogger, but I need the administrative password so I can do things on my computer.
Me: No, you can just ask me to type it in if you need to make any changes.
Him: Okay.
Me: You would take a lie detector test?
Him: What? You can get those? How?
Me: There are people you can hire. You would take one?
Him: Yes.
Me: You would start a program for emotional abusers?
Him: That or anger management.
Me: A program for abusers.
Him: Yes. I'll put it all in writing.
Me: You would have only joint credit cards?
Him: Yes. I want you to trust me again.
Me: I only trust what I can verify.
Him: You can verify everything.
Me: You're just going to start claiming that I'm demanding. You don't want to be this open and honest. You've been saying that for seven years. Why the sudden change.
Him: I just realized... I guess. I realized that I didn't want to be this person. I think it's because my mother was so smothering. [She is Korean, and very smothering.] I just got in the habit of hiding whatever I did from her, so I wouldn't have to deal with it. And then I did the same thing with you.
Me: [silent]
Him: So what do you think?

I told him I would think about it. What do you think? Does it sound sincere? Does it sound like "total surrender"? What else should I ask for?

Great job on standing your ground.

Next step is action. Keylogger installed, you have password, and lie-detector test. Since lie detector tests are always yes or no questions, think of three or four where you know you haven't gotten the truth, and word them in a yes-no format.

Then have him call a shelter and ask them for a recommended recovery program for abusers. Make him take the necessary actions. You talk with a shelter counselor about what you need to be seeing from him on a consistent basis to be safe. Do not move back or go back to what it was two weeks ago even. Have him create a plan with the shelter counselor. Those women have seen men manipulate before and could see through him a mile away if it's just for show. Trust a 3rd party to verify recovery.

Give this some time. 32 is not that much older than 31. You have time where a year from now you will have worked through your own issues as well so that you know whether or not he's become a keeper.

He has to SHOW you that he has changed...

Set up a lie detector visit

make an appointment with SH

Tell him HE has to go to the shelter for the abusers on his own

Install the key logger on his computer, get all passwords, to everything

I would NOT move back home yet! I would wait at least 6 months to see if he is really wanting to change, if you move too fast on this, then guarantee you will be back here on MB with a bruised eye and filing for a divorce.

Take your TIME! The longer you wait, the better chance you will see his TRUE intentions.

I am working on finding the best local program for him to enroll in. I will tell him to call, but I want to make sure it is the best one.

I know there are some lawyers in this forum. Do any of you know whether it is possible to get a post-nup that gives me everything (house, savings, retirement funds, etc.) in case he reverts to his old behavior? How enforceable is it, and how do I get the most iron-clad one? I called my lawyer, but she is out of town this week.

Anna,

I am super proud of you! Standing up for yourself like that is not easy, but you pulled it off like a pro.

Also, how do I find someplace that gives lie detector tests?

Anna, I'm not a lawyer but I've been in the legal field for over 25 years. I don't think a post-nup would be enforceable in this context and it would definitely depend on your state statutes. Check with your attorney for sure.

As far as "nothing happening" on his trips to see OW. You don't really believe that do you?

He is still playin' you big-time. Get out now honey. If you were my daughter, I would hog-tie you and take you out of town to get away from this man. My own daughter was involved with your H (not him, lol, but someone exactly like him). Know how it ended? After two kids? She woke up (literally) after being choked nearly to death, unconcious, and ran for her life with nothing but the clothes on her back. He was charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon (his hands). He and she had the same kinds of back and forth that you and your H are having now. It didn't get better, it only escalated. Thank God she hasn't spoken to him since that day.

These kind of men DO NOT change quickly, if ever. Please don't ruin your life.

Please listen to PM.

Also it's pretty clear that your H has what Dr Harley calls "Secret Second Life". THis type of person has a very hard time following PORH and POJA (scary, right?). One thing Dr H said to me about men who have this is that they can overcome it BUT they have to believe being completely open and honest is important.

So it's one thing if they have a hard time revealing everything about themselves to their spouse because that's what they are accustomed to. It's entirely another if they DON'T really think it's a change they need to make...

Which description of those two do you think matches your H?

I talked to my lawyer about a postnup--hard to say how enforceable it will be, but it could be if he has his own lawyer present and we get a court reporter there to record that there is no duress. I also looked up phone numbers for a counseling program. Talked to the director myself. Gave him the number, and told him he needs to find a lawyer for the postnup. Guess we'll see today if he calls.

I mentioned the keylogger again and he said he would do it if I insisted, but that he'd probably just not use that computer much anymore and that it would make him feel spied upon and resentful. Said he wanted to put a keylogger on mine too because that would make it mutual. I said no--you only put the ankle bracelet on the sex offender, you don't put it on the innocent citizen.

What do you think?

You know what we think. Doesn't sound like he's really going to do what you need. What, 2 days later and he's balking at what your requirements are? After he swore up and down to do whatever you needed?????????

And he's defensive (you better do it too, etc).

You're so young! You deserve so much more.

Sometimes things are hard to do, but need to be done.

Seriously, does it matter what we think?

Did you read my last post?

He isn't going to change if HE DOESN"T BELIEVE HE REALLY NEEDS TO CHANGE. Please think about it.

Anna,

I�m completely and utterly baffled about why you feel you can�t do better than this? Is it a self esteem issue? Do you not deserve better? Is there something in your psyche that enjoys this drama?

I�m serious about that question. My own IC told me that women who like abusers find normal men boring. They have to shift their standards. Abusive men are exciting. The sex and drama and back and forth gets exciting for women like you and when a normal man comes along, who is stable and without massive drama, the women who like abusers feel they lack a certain �spark� between them.

Seriously, YOU are addicted to this drama. Cut it off. Go get your own deep and serious counseling and find out why you settled for a man like this and then do what you need to to avoid such a man in the future. Believe me, us �boring� guys are anything but.

I�m baffled that you�re wasting your time at such a young age and with no kids. Why do you continue to give this idiot the time of day? He�s an abuser. He�s not going to change. Say that over and over again. HE�S NOT GOING TO CHANGE. HE�S SAYING WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR SIMPLY TO BRING YOU BACK UNDER HIS CONTROL SO HE CAN RESUME CONTROLLING YOU.

End it. Put an end to the drama and walk away forever.

Get counseling. Get to the heart of why you settle for this sort of treatment. Then focus on your behavior. My IC told me that the �why� isn�t as important as the behavior. Your behavior is that you settle for being treated badly.

I�m proud that you�ve stood up for yourself, but you�re simply wasting your time. This dirtbag doesn�t deserve your attention. You�re better than this. Wake up and stop the cycle!