My H and I have done reg MC and also phone counseling with the Harleys, both Jennifer and Steve. IMO, you can't even compare the two.

I don't know the statistics, but Mel has posted them before ~ traditional marriage counseling has a very high failure rate. It ends up doing more damage because you actually end up love bustering each other in the sessions.

When you do phone counseling with the Harleys, they will speak to you separately to prevent this.

If you want another analogy, your M is on life support right now. SW, no offense, but I noticed in your posts, you delve in distractions such as the past and your own analysis on why things happen an awful lot. In MC you will likely waste precious time on these distractions (at least my H and I did).

You need to focus on things like how to protecting the M, helping your H to heal, and the two of you need to learn how to meet each others EN's and avoid lovebusters. The Harleys know how to do this better than anyone and they will keep you two on track.

* ps, I also felt weird about counseling over the phone ~ but it was completely fine and it only took about 1 minute to get over it.

You NEED to talk to your husband. He should be the only friend you need.

WRONG!!

Try again.

Have you tried respectfully talking to him about these complaints?


No, your fogged out, cycling from one extreme to another, and your going through withdrawals. When was the last contact, including indirect conctACT with OM? (FaceBook, email, someone passed on a message from HIM)

No. You had an affair because you failed to protect the M and you allowed someone else to meet your Emotional Needs. Just like any other wayward.

Some thoughts on UA time:

Saddest, UA time is one of the MOST important things you can have right now to rebuild your relationship. You need to have a minimum of 25 hours right now and plan for 15 hours every week for the rest of your lives.

It will be awkward, as you say, but the more you do it, the better you will be at it.

UA should be spent filling the 4 Intimate Needs - as they cannot be met by anyone else outside the marriage:

Recreational Companionship,
Intimate Conversation,
Affection,
Sexual Fulfillment

Here are a couple of resources that may help:
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

Personal History Questionnaire - now you may already know a lot of this information on each other, but it may be nice and go back over this information, talk about how you feel NOW about your past, etc.

Think back to when your husband and you were dating - what did you do when you were courting. Why did you fall in love? You want to get back to that point again.

Doing the ENs and LBs questionnaire is also a great thing to do right now.

You mention several times giving up your friends for your DH. I know that may seem a big thing right now, but for so long I'm sure you associated your best and funnest times with your friends and kids and not your DH. That is backwards. DH time should be where your fondest and happiest thoughts and memories are. It is going to take work to create that but it can be done.

You will have time later to develop friendships outside your marriage and rebuild your relationship with your kids, but it must always come second to your scheduled UA time with your husband.

SW,

The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling / manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll

Sounds like me before I started reading this site, although I was not relentless, might be good if H reads some of the threads here.

When I realized after reading a single sentence on this site that her abuse of me did not justify my abuse of her, I found a way out of the cyclic attack attack relationship we had drifted into.

And you are right about the snap insights, there were a few posters here who I said that's my wife or that's me, and I felt like I could see myself as others saw me. Pretty good for a FREE website.

How does you H feel about OM, has he expressed a need to meet him.

If you affair was physical you need to get STD testing immediately, and monitor yourself/H for HPV related cancers long term.

God Bless
Gamma

Let me try this -- I was mad when I had the A and I'm still mad. I tried respectfully talking to him about the complaints for years. I begged him -- literally begged him on my hands and knees in tears to find a way to be nice to me or divorce me.

This gets back to my original post that got so many people so agitated. How do I set any boundaries in this context? I am unconvinced that continuing to be silent is helpful. But what I heard the forum say is that I have no other option. Although, the next time he calls me a c***, I may walk out of the room. Or maybe I should let him do it three more times. Or ten more times. I just feel like there should be some limit. But maybe I'm wrong about that too -- I've been wrong about a lot of stuff.

Now is obviously not the time to try to address the issues which have me so mad. But that doesn't stop me from having the feeling. Continuing to sit silently and endure is just making me madder. And don't you all yell at me too -- I can't help how I feel. I can only help what I do -- and I'm not doing ANYTHING. I see his pain -- I really do -- and I try to run towards him through his rage, but it is terrifying. I'm not sure how long I can tolerate this.

I do try to talk to him, but I have to be so careful and I don't really have anything to say. I don't want to provoke him -- I'm here with him by myself and I am at times physically scared, but it's more that I don't want to set him off at me again. I can't sleep. Food is a joke. The fear of H is familiar territory -- I've been afraid of him for as long as I can remember -- this is just more intense. In time maybe I will adapt.

Maybe it would help to tell you all what I want to talk to a friend about. "I'm here with H, and I'm scared. His rage feels out of control to me. I am walking on eggshells and holding my breath at the same time I'm trying to fight through my own issues. I feel like throwing up and crying and running away all at the same time. I'm fried and so incredibly lonely and I think H likes seeing me this way. He's been beating me down with every tool at his disposal for years and I just handed him a precision weapon and I don't know for how long or in what way he is going to use it, but I know from history that my H never lets go of a good weapon. The future looks so bleak and I don't even know why I am here except I remember that I loved him at one time, and this is the morally right thing to do."

All of my friends know about the A -- I'm not a person who makes a lot of friends -- I have a few very close friendships that developed over many years -- as do my brother and sister with whom I am very close (I don't speak to my mother.) Am I to cut them all out of my life?

We have/had one couple friend. My H told me that if I would text them about the A and call myself a I wh***, he wouldn't tell the children about what a wh*** their mother is. So I drafted the text, H approved it, and I sent it. So they know too.

I am not about to engage on any level for any reason with the OM or his wife. I wouldn't even know where to send him a letter. He is part of my past.

The last time I saw OM was last week. I sent the NC email on Friday. I met him at a restaurant when I was out to dinner with a married friend.

I'm not sure what else I can do right now to help H heal. I'm doing everything he asks, I know his moods better than he does -- I know he is cycling through rage and suppression, I'm being considerate -- bringing him lunch, etc. I haven't left the house. I don't talk to anyone. I don't talk back to him when he is being ugly to me. I leave my cell phone out in the open. I send him funny text messages from other rooms in the house about how cute he is. I have sex whenever he wants. What else?

Put in an emergency call to the Harleys. No question.

If you are serious about saving your M, I would do this today.

But, you didn't get here overnight, sad. There is a lot of damage that has been done to your M, and I'm not just talking about the A. The two of you need to get to know each other all over again. I can't imagine how emasculating it was, for your H to hear his relatively low place on your emotional pecking order. He and your M should be the No. 1 Priority in your life, and you've told him in no uncertain terms that it isn't that way. You have some work to do, and I'd suggest beginning by elevating him to his proper place in your M.

I feel as though no one is addressing the issue of saddestwife's physical safety. If her H has been physically abusive in the past (I'm not sure if he has or not) and she is fearing for her physical safety, then she should leave and get herself to a safe place. I worry that she's being isolated from family and friends and that if her H goes off the deep end and gets violent, there will be no one to help her. Affair or no affair, she shouldn't put herself into a dangerous situation. I don't want to be reading about her on the news in a couple of days.

If you're really that afraid of your H, please get out and get some help. If you've been afraid of your H for as long as you can remember, why do you even want to save your M? That's no way to live. There is no excuse for having an affair, but just because you had one doesn't mean that you should be forced to put up with abuse and put your life and physical safety in jeopardy.

He was violent once when he found about the A. I'm not really all that worried about it, but it's on my radarscope. When I said I have been afraid of him for as long as I can remember, I meant emotionally.

I put my kids first because I thought I was supposed to. Certainly, that is the message our society sends to mothers. As long as my kids are safe, I don't have a problem putting H and the M first. I certainly didn't mean to emasculate him. He is a wonderful provider and an excellent father.

Your not getting me.

I did not ask if they know about your affair. I asked did they know before your husband and keep it a secrete from him. Anyone who did THAT is an enemy of your marriage. These people should be discarded immediately.

Important people, with you H's agreement, should be told of the affair. This is called exposure, and these important people can help safeguard your marriage from a repeat affair.

This is wrong for two reasons.

1. You need to tell your childrene the truth about why there father is so upset at there mother.

2. Obviously, it goes without saying that your husbands actions here are not productive.

So you are unwilling to commit to NC, and you are willing to allow his wife to continue being abused by his adultery?

No, read below. He is part of last week.

No wonder your so foggy, your in the hardest part of withdrawals.


What?
Why in the world would you do that?
Does your husband know this?

Time..... It takes 1-5yrs


Please discribe exactly how your husband has gotten physical violent with YOU in the past. Details please.

You never answered this.

Sounds like an awful lot of excuses here to me and not actually any action.

YOU need to do something different saddestwife. Keep putting the same stuff in,you'll keep getting the same stuff out.

Have a good look at the program here and start thinking about the real life action you can take to turn things around instead of keep defending yourself.


Please make a list of what things you are going to do.

(this will help us get a gague on how much you are taking on board and whether you understand the concept of MB)

Actually, I believe this was addressed several times earlier in the thread and she indicated there is name calling going on but nothing that makes her fear her physical safety.

SW, it is very easy to come on here and outline grievances with our spouses, especially when we are being lovebuster'd... It is a lot harder to look at yourself and see how you contributed to the cycle ~ to identify what ENs you weren't meeting and what lovebusters YOU were committing. You have already admitted in so many words that you are a conflict avoider and you haven't even begun the process of understanding how damaging that has been to your M.

And, again, your BH just experienced the worst day of his life. I think all of us BSs committed major lovebusters following dday. I know I acted like a crazy person, screaming, threatening, crying, name calling, all of it, before I found this site. This is very normal. The best thing that you can do right now is continue trying to meet his needs and not commit any lovebusters yourself. I really do believe you are going to need help in this area.

So are you going to call the Harleys??

Having been around trial lawyers for the past 25 years...

This whole thread is a "debate" or at best an "argument"... oh never mind. I'll just go back to reading but the jury's still out. On second thought, I'd love for SB to give us her thoughts.

Saddest,

Ok now that we know that NC was only last Fri. your responses make a lot more sense. You are really still in the "fog". However, let's talk about your strategy for recovery and life.

One thing you will note on this site and in Harley's articles is that there MUST be a balance between ones giver and taker. This is true for you and for your H. The needs questionaire is a way to determine what and how people's needs are addressed. The four rules of a good marriage are really a guide for a good marriage and I strongly encourage you to read them. The tools for a good marriage are embodied in Harley's two main policies (the policy of radical honesty, you cannot negotiate win-win without good data) and the police of joint agreemente, POJA, (which is the tool for negotiating a win-win in any situation). You are not quite ready for this as your H is cycling between rage and deep pain for your affair, and you are cycling between wanting the marriage and withdrawal from OM.

You may say you are over him but, you also said My guess is that your affair was something you looked forward to. Not unusual.

You also said You right, it is not an excuse for the A but may I ask why you did not just divorce him? Clearly, he is of little value to you if this is how he treats you. In case you have not figured this out, this is not a marriage at all costs site.

So while you are reluctant to tell him how he has failed you, you have in fact shown him that you found others more attractive. He will need to hear from you what his treatment of you has done to you. You need to decide if you want to be married to him and under what conditions. There is no sense in just making the marriage what it used to be. Unfortunately, you took the cowards way of having an affair. If you had come here before this A we could have helped you address the issues of the marriage, which will have to be addressed but your A puts you at a huge disadvantage in negotiating a win-win.

Ultimately as you work through this stuff, you and your H will need to really address the issues in the marriage, not just the issues of your affair. You say you have been to MC. Where you seeing the MC while carrying on your affair? If so, I doubt it could or would do much good. If your MC is pro-marriage, you need to tell him/her the real situation.

Finally, you don't have to sit there and quietly take from him the same treatment that occured before the affair. You do need to speak up and set your boundaries. You can draw the line at name calling, you can draw the line at many things and still work on the marriage.

I find this las statement interesting given how your first few posts here came across. You said I find it hard to believe you did this, but if you did, then you need to start to really look inside and decide what made you do this instead of either leaving or negotiating a better situation.

I must go, but I hope you think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

Actually, I did shut up with H. Try to take this the right way: when people are emotionally abused over time they come to view it as normal and deserved. I stopped even trying to fight back because the abuse didn't register as such -- it became the norm. I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

Why didn't I divorce him is a good question. We were trying to resolve these very issues in 2003 - 4 time frame, and then the first crisis hit with my D's illness and then one crisis after another over the next several years. But when we are under assault from outside forces is when we are at our best as a couple. So there were some good, bonded times in there. There was also a lot more damage done to the M. When the stress was relieved and those matters resolved I was so relieved to have something looking like peace and so concerned that my two younger children have some stability for a while that I let things slide for a few years. I had several people point out to me after witnessing how H talked to me that he was being emotionally abusive and tried to address it with him, but he couldn't hear me. After a time, I gave up and went into "I can endure this for 4 more years until S is out of high school" mode. So these are longstanding issues.

Why not leave now: I think this could be a catalyst for real change. When we talk about the M calmly, he is saying all the right things, but those calm moments only come after an explosion, and those explosions do more damage. He acknowledges his abuse and wants to be a better husband. I know he is in a terrible state right now and can't help himself. So I'm trying to take the longer view and hold onto the possibility for change.

The whole MC thing is a red herring at this point -- we will be starting from scratch wherever we end up. Too much has happened in between. I'm not sure about the Harley's. When things are less tense, I need to talk to H about what he wants to do. I'm too scared to bring it up right now. He is getting ready to start a job where he will be traveling 2-3 weeks a month so we are going to have to be creative.

I met the OM at a bar at a restaurant where my girlfriend and I were having dinner. He was chatting with her and I wasn't really paying that much attention until I heard him say something that I disagreed with and I got into a debate with him. I didn't see him at all as a potential A partner. I was just chatting at first. He really liked my sparky side. Then when we left he walked with me and then we were kissing. I'll avoid putting myself in the situation in the future.

None of my friends or family members who knew about the A told my H, nor do I think it ever occurred to any of them to do so. All of them discouraged it and encouraged me to tell my H. I thought I could manage it -- while the last contact was last week, I have been fighting the battle to end it from the start and I thought I could manage it. Yes, I did look forward to it, but at the same time it was so filled with guilt and pain and fear that I don't miss it, at least not yet. Contact with OM was always very sporadic and intense. I expect that I'll have my moments, but I don't think they will be as bad as the guilt and pain and fear I experienced in the A. I need a strategy for when those times come up though.

If saying I'm not going to hire a private investigator in another country to find out who his wife is to not doing NC, then that's right, I'm not. I told my H what was in my email and he is fine with it.

I'm trying right now to get up the nerve to ask him to fill out the EN questionnaire which I am terrified to do for reasons I can't articulate. I'm hoping I will do it and not give into my conflict avoiding side. I've got to get a handle on my fear but I haven't the first idea how to do that.

You know what the best solution to blackmail is?

Reveal the truth yourself.

I think you should tell your children now, anyway. They need to know.


Of what gender?

Why did you mention the friend was married? Do married people not have affairs?

I believe that WWs have to feel resentment to the H to get the affair going. From your words i am not certain if you truly have an evil H or whether you are trying to justify and rationalize. If you are justifying welcome to the human race-------everybody does.

I suggest you compare your H to others and see what you get.

I can tell you that I am a pretty good type B personality H that does not control and my wife had a midlife crisis. In fact she sounded a bit like you.

Can you post specific examples of the controlling behavior?

Describe the criticism.

BTW, you continue to do quite well.

You started this affair right away. There was no prelude of friendship or EA. I have to assune you have done this before------is that correct?

You need to go hermetic NC and will only feel normal after several months.