What are your helpful suggestions toward that goal, SS2?

Mrs. W

I honestly don't know what ST should do. I am divorced. I have never allowed anyone to abuse my children in anyway. I would not have put up with half as much as ST already has. I am hoping that someone with more qualification will chime in and help ST.

If it were me, I would not POJA when it comes to my children's emotional health. I would defend it with everything I had. I would make that very clear to my spouse. I would not stay with someone that hurt my children.

I agree with you, SS2 - That is not an issue that I have ever dealt with in my marriage...

Mrs. W

Thanks SS2 for getting me back on track.

I was feeling more upbeat after band and managed summons the motivation to talk to J.

I gave him a condition and that is that he has to bring this w/e up at his next perp course to discuss. My safety officer is going to make sure he has the opportunity to do so.

I told him - no R talk, heated discussions in front of the children - he had got very good at this, but with me having withdrawn he is baiting me in front of them.

I have told him that if the children's saftety (physical or emotional) is at risk I will step in and it is not something that needs POJA.

And I have spoken to him about finding a way to escape from DD before he gets too het up - because she knows how and when to press his butons (like she does with me and like thay all do with all of us).

We had further discussion on this and agreed that in order to prevent her getting to that state we will make sure she is adequately rested and work harder to head off any anxiety she may have before she gets twitchy.

With her it is a very very fine line between plenty of sleep and not enough sleep. In a school week/weekend only one night after 8 max. She is usually awake before 6 and won't/can't go back to sleep even if she goes to be regularly later.

He gets one more chance with the children like I gave him one with me last year. Only this time it will be curtains and not just separation.

Edited because it somehow got posted before it was done and I didn't see it till it was and...

stay... I've been thinking about how to deal with the issue of trying to work on the marriage and protect your children at the same time. I honestly have no advice to give, but perhaps explain your situation in an email to Joyce and call into the radio show. Get some help from Dr. Harley.

This is the LAST week they'll be doing the radio show for a while so there's a time factor. But hey - it's free advice from Dr. Harley.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Sounds like a lot of pressure to me...

I so wish that you guys could work with a MB savvy counselor; one that could help you work out the daily communicative stuff to prevent build-up and explosive release of emotional pressure.

I think your situation is far above my pay grade. The best I can do is keep coming back to the basics. The problem is that you know the basics. The trick now is to learn to both apply them to your relationship.

Any time our Taker steps in to right a wrong (as we see it) or correct an imbalance of some sort, we have to be very careful that we don't allow that part of us to utilize the typical tools that are at its disposal. Those things of course are AOs, SDs and DJs and once those fail to get what we want or expect from each other, we resort to IB, usually "softened" by hiding it from each other (lying). This is even true of our emotional stuff in that we we attempt to moderate the conflict we are having by withholding things we think are likely to upset our spouse.

The problem with this strategy is that it just can't ever get us what we need and want and the conflict only really ends when we walk away from it by slipping into withdrawal. So now we want nothing from each other and don't care at all. Of course as soon as one of us does something nice or something that begins to meet a need or anything happens that causes us to enjoy our time together, we find ourselves in conflict. The road to intimacy always goes through conflict to get there.

Once in intimacy our problem will be that our Giver will want to run things and we will have to fight the urge to give away too much and end up with a mountain of resentment, but until then, the problem we have is over ruling our Taker and making sure that it isn't throwing about demands, disrespectful judgments or having a temper tantrum.

Kids are going to be an ongoing issue. Once they learn what buttons to push, they push them every chance they get. They even push them just for the sake of seeing the reaction some times and not even as a way to manipulate parents. They just want to see if those buttons still work, I guess. The older they get (till about 25 or so) the more they try to wrestle control from their parents. If Mom sees the kids lining Dad up for trouble, then Mom needs to solve the problem before Dad's button gets punched.

Of course this means you and J have to talk about what to do ahead of time so that he doesn't think it is you interfering with his authority or lessening the power of fatherhood.

I've been actively attempting to eliminate AOs for 4 years. A month ago we did the LBQ as part of our training for the class we are doing this fall. Guess what the top of my wife's list of LBs was...

So how can I stop all AOs, I wonder, and never lose my temper or raise my voice in anger ever again?

I'm just rambling and grasping at straws here...

Mark

Hey Mark...

You can't eliminate LBs forever, no once-and-for-all. Just had this discussion with DH recently.

You just come to realize that something you did weekly (daily), monthly, changed into quarterly, bi-annually...and now, once every three years...

it's how we get to forever...

Because once you get to years in between, your spouse no longer expects that once to mean "always" anymore. Really does become "wow, where'd that come back from?"



Mostly in life, what counts is what we do AFTER we screw up.

Yet we humans emphasize total prevention...

Teaching our children grace, forgiveness, ownership is only afforded after we screw up.

We get to know our parents don't like how they act sometimes...that they have a goal (to not act out)...that love doesn't mean no hurting, no conflict or smooth sailing.

We learn our parents need our forgiveness as much as we need theirs.

Which changes our lives...as we learn our choice to respond.

ST - Your H asked if DD could give him a signal...and you went to blame and responsibility. He was brainstorming...he doesn't want to take stuff out on his kids and his wife...HE has, does and WILL. Be realistic...teaching your children respectful communication, showing them their true power and limits, is the most important part of parenting...

Take the "he shouldn't have said/done that" and transform them into truth "I don't like it when he says/does that."

Kids are going to hurt. To be hurt. What we teach them in how to respond to their own hurt is really important.

And you're teaching them to make others not mistreat them. Which is why it's really hard for you--keeps you in that unclear, not true mindset.

Our response to abuse matters as much as the abuse.

We are as powerful. Even at 7, even at 4. J doesn't "always" do this, nor does he "never" do this. What he does after matters as much.

Same for you. Seems to me you drew the unacceptable line for his treatment of you and the kids. The ending line.

What about the boundary lines before that one?

We all have the "get away" from abusers line...doesn't teach children much about their power...sure teaches them they are victims, powerless, done to...and that choosing "right" is all that matters...

so they remain replacers...dependent on how others treat them instead of how they respond to mistreatment. Keeps the cycle going...is part of it.

Teaching by example, that if you make all the conditions right, then we won't be hurt isn't realistic, either. It's a great way to exert our control, do our best, acknowledge we need adequate food, sleep to operate optimally...and that doing our best does not ensure anything...

except healthy healthy esteem, self-love and self-respect. And when we fail ourselves, knowing the way back is priceless...for children and adults.

And J understanding his permission to beat his inner circle...if you love me, you'll allow me my worst behavior...

I was like this, ST. I treated those I loved most as entitlement dumps. Because I wasn't honest, didn't know how to respond, what my power and limitations were...I beat my inner circle, just as I beat up myself.

And they let me...and learned to beat those they love the most...which proves love to them.

And six years ago, I realized I treated the ones I loved the most with the least respect...I stopped. Now they are my guests, treated the best...and there's no tolerance in me for mistreatment of anyone...which includes myself.

J can get there...you can get there...understand what your children already believe...because the ages they are, are exactly when we formed these beliefs. You get a front row seat. Take it.

LA

You married this abuser
You had precious chuldren with him
You let him abuse the kids even blaming the kids for "pushing his buttons"

There is no way we can "help you stay with this perp"!!!!!

GEEZE!!!

This man needs to be arrested and put in prison. NOW.So he does not hurt the 7 years old and 4 year olds any more. These kids are NOT responsible for his abuse of them and of you!!!!!!

Why does this man have to go to PERP classes?

Thanks Vibrissa,

Thing is the website does say that advice will not be given where there is abuse. The abuse has to end first...

It is a lot of pressure - these kids only get one childhood and the time in their development is critical.

I wish there was one here.


Nightmare - it's very hard


This is dodgy ground Mark. In what way are the things J said right? How can I respectfully request that he doesn't torture my daughter? I don't. I comfort her, I tell him he is wrong - because he is. And then I have to make sure that if it happens one more time it never happens again after that. That has to involve a selfish demand.

Yes, of course. I do this. I don't let him know of the things I get invited to and some of the things I'd like to do. IN part because I know I should be wanting to spend this time with him instead but also because I know he'll say "do what you want". I don't know how to share that with him.



I keep rehashing the last few weeks with H and I can't see what I did wrong. But J says he misinterpreted me, by having these assumptions about me and IB.

I know. I am fortunate that I am able to read them _ I spend all day with all sorts of kids and I can pull myself out of it. Yes, this is what the discussion we had was about - preventing those buttons being pressed.

If you took out that crap day, he is a truly great dad -being there for them whenever he can, rearranging work schedules, joining in with school projects, listening to reading several times a week and of course sat morning he was able to reassure E and help her with her anxiety.

I find it hard to believe but you have hinted at it before.

I'm not sure how possible this is and of course I AO - I do a lot of it here. I wish there was a way I could overcome my sensitivity to it, without losing the protection element that my sensitivity gives me

It's helpful rambling, it helps me work out my stance. Thank you

Thank you LA. I'm going to come back to this, later.

Thank you for posting Bubbles. I'm not ready just yet to give up on all of our work. This has totally thrown a spanner in the works. I think that the work he has done on the perpetrators of abuse course has helped enormously. I really believe that if we can work the MB prog we can be sure to eliminate it.

I am now concerned for my children's emotional health - not my chidren's. My daugher's.

2 poems by my 7yo daughter (of the 3 she worte before school this morning - the other was about moving up to Junior school in spetember)

My Mum

My mum is one in a millyon
I love her to bits
She cheers me up wen I am upset
My mum is great becouse
She lets me go to stay at Grandmas
For a sleep over
On a school nhtgi

(her spelling errors - not mine)



My Dad

My dad gets angry sometimes
But I still
Love him

She didn't show me these ones - she showed me the one about school - i found the others.

Stay - the reason I mentioned calling in, though it is an abuse issue, is that your question is how to utilize MB to strengthen the marriage WHILE the abuse issue is being addressed. (I'm assuming you're gonna address it, counselling, anger management, something - but I haven't caught up on your thread yet).

I know they have taken questions regarding abuse.

A couple of weeks ago a man called who had sexually abused one of his children and was separated from his wife and family. The family was in counselling and working towards reintegration. Dr. H told him he and his wife could work on his marriage, but he could not live with the family until all the children were grown and out of the house (and mentioned that he'd counseled with another couple where this wound up being the case).

Now I don't know if your situation is extreme enough to need that kind of treatment - which is why I recommended a call.

At worst they tell you they wont take your question.

Back at last.

J and I read this through a couple of times together. He kept saying that he didn't understand. I explained my interpretation to him and he still didn't understand.

LA, I agree with nearly everything you said and we have been working to incorporate but...

He definitely should not have, it's not even that I don't like it. He should not have done it/ said it.

Yes. I want to teach them both that just because they hurt they shouldn't make someone else hurt or hurt back.

I'm not sure what is unclear here.

The thing that I find unclear, is that I have to decide what is right or wrong for me and the children and sometimes I do have to make a judgement that J is doing something wrong and stop it. Don't I? If something bad is happening , I can't wait for it to run its course, I have to jump in.







It's hard when it goes form 0-60 when you're not there, or even when you are there.

He was playing with the kids on the sofa the other night and they were all giggling. I'd heard a "watch your feet" a couple of times and then all of a sudden he hit rage and started shouting. I was down the hall and a bit confused. He was becoming increasingly annoyed about the kids feet hitting him and each other as they were having their tickling bundle, but didn't actually let them know. A simple " this game stops if I get a foot in my face again" would have stopped frayed tempers and flying feet.

I want to do something different - i want to be the family that can survive INTACT - at that means intact as individuals as well. There has to be a way (but not at all costs).

this is a tricky lesson to teach, so hard to find that line

NO -that isn't realistic - but we have to do our best to make the circumstances work. ISn't that why we all have EPs in place to protect ourselves from As? We have to know that we have done as much as we can but be awake to the fact that there are still no guarantess

yep



Thank you for sharing this.

What do my children already believe?

Maybe I should have emailed/called, but time ran too short last week. J jas done anger management and counselling and his currently doing a 30 week perpetrators of abuse course (2hours a week).

30 weeks of perp of abuse classes?

He is a true monster. Those poor kids, one day he will haul off and kill one of them "by accident" in one of his rages.

Why do you continue to stay with this abuser, again?

What were you thinking bringing precious children into the world and raising them with this abuser?