"Gack, if you are eating those things, you must stop instantly -- and I mean no contact of any sort. Go through your pantry and refrigerator, put it all in a trash bag and take it to the dump. Avoid situations where you might be tempted -- if you have to change your driving routes so you don't pass McDonalds, do it. Have someone else go to the grocery store for you. When I say No Contact, I mean none whatsoever.

I know you will probably go through withdrawal and will do things to justify your bad behavior like deciding that an unpronouncable chemical name on the ingredients list is an actual nutrient. Recognize that you are experiencing foggy thinking and come here instead. There are people here to help you -- you may not like what they have to say at times but we won't hold back because we want you to live."

Something I have noticed both in my H's A and from reading here for 2+ years is that when newly WSes post with a euphoric and giddy tone, there has nearly always been a recent contact "fix". Hope that does not apply in this case.

AM

SW:
I have read your entire thread. I'm imporessed with the way you hung in here even though you felt like you we're getting beat up and said twice that you were done with this forum. I have no real advice to give other than to keep it up and work hard at following the advice being given to you by the vets on this site (and yes, this includes Mel). These folks have helped you crack your shell of justification. I believe from your most recent posts that you are beginning to see this. You remind me of my WW in many ways. I only wish she had the courage to do what you are doing.

If you keep it up, and can convince your BS to take this path along with you, in the not too distant future you will look back at this thread, maybe review it and wonder how on earth you ever felt justified to say this in your third post:

"I said no to the other man right up until the time I said yes"

At some point you may even cut and paste it on the "things waywards say" thread.

Keep it up

Blessings
L4S

Nope, no fix. Even better is that I just got a text message from my daughter and the chime didn't make my heart rate go up wondering if if was from the OM, nor did I feel the need to race to the phone to check and delete for fear my H would catch me. I don't expect my H to see it the same way, but the lack of emotional entanglement with the OM is a very good thing -- I don't miss him, I miss the A process.

I like living this way much better than the other.

And this post is another text message not sent.....

SW:

If nothing else, THIS WAS FUNNY. Change a couple words and it can be what the folks here have been telling you what to do.

Your moving in the right direction. You seem pretty bright. You just might "get this MB stuff" and become a regular poster, and MB vet.... Feel up to that?

LG

SW;

One of the things that helped my BW recover from my 4.5 year A was that I called HER all those times that I used to call OW...

It made a huge difference. You can post here, but you should call your husband...MORE.

LG

Melodylane, please forgive me. I was WAY out of line. I took out the rage I am feeling at myself on you. Please come back and knock me upside of the head as hard as you can when necessary. You clearly know the right buttons to push. If I act like an idiot again, put it down to the fog....

And while I am at it, let me clear up the record on my H. I conveniently failed to mention the good stuff in an effort to get sympathy and justify my behavior. My H is incredibly loyal. He has enormous integrity. He is standing by me and working on the small things that deposit units in the LB -- like he helped me clean the floors yesterday. He is a good man who is willing to take responsibility for his conduct in our M. He is visibly working at changing his behavior. Hey -- he puts up with me -- how bad could he really be?

Believe it or not, I do try to be scrupulously honest with myself and others and step up to the plate when I am wrong. My H and I talked last night about how we have failed to bring our best qualities into the M. I wonder why that is.

My H works at home so we talk all the time.

I'm getting my head around the telling all the gory details thing -- that's a biggie.

I think most wayward spouses tend to focus on the negative aspects of their marriage when they are still in the fog of the affair. It helps to justify the behavior. It's not remotely helpful in recovering the marriage, but it is very common. I never characterized my H as controlling or criticizing (he is neither of those things) but I was very focused on other negative aspects of our relationship. For me, it was all about how my H didn't understand me and how we didn't have anything at all in common. But it was still the same thing.

As far as the gory details go, I think you should let your H take the lead on this one. Let him decide what he wants to know. Some BS's want to know everything and some do not. My H really didn't want a play-by-play of everything that happened with the OM, so I didn't give him one. I did answer all of his questions completely and honestly. After my H's affair, I wanted to know everything. I'm a very detail-oriented person, so I had to know every last little thing that happened and every word that was ever said. Everyone is different in this respect. I think your H will let you know what he needs to know in order to heal.

Saddest, please read this link.
It links to Joseph's letter

Usually we share this letter with the BS when their WS is reluctant to share the details of the A .... Usually claiming that the truth will hurt the BS too much.

I recommend you share Joseph's letter with your H.

The thing is, you've known all about your A from day one.
Everything is all brand new to your H.
We cannot process what we do not know.

I hope this helps.

Saddest,

You said Let me offer some advice that has worked for many folks over the years. When you are really ready to answer any of your H's questions, sit him down and tell him the following.

"Dear, I will honestly answer any questions you have at any level of detail you want. But, I have a few requests. One is that you write them down. and then write down why you want to know this information and how it will help you. Let it sit for a day or so, and then reread what you wrote. If you still want to know, then I will answer with all of the detail I can possibly give. I know my answers will hurt you, but I want my answers to also help you and I recover and build our marriage. That is why I asked you to consider how they will help you. If they won't help you and simply cause pain, you need to decide if that is worth it to you."

You see Saddest, there are very productive ways to address some of this and often it is the presentation. Another thing I would recommend to you is that you sit down and really reflect on what you have learned from your affair and what you are starting to learn now. It may seem odd, but your H is more likely to receive information from you if he knows that you are learning and growing from this as well.

You also said There is the dicotomy of recovery and why it is so anti-intuitive. He is trying to change because you failed him. Does that make sense? Not really until you realize that he does love you, but also knows he has failed. So he tries, BUT (and here is where MB can really help you) Harley knows that many marriages go down the tube not because of effort but because of ineffective effort. He needs to target his actions toward YOUR needs in a way that you recognize and YOU need to do the same.

Please see if he will fill out the needs questionaire that can be found here and in Harley's books. It doesn't matter if your needs are the same or not, what matters is that you each discuss your own needs and how best to meet them. By the way, most men don't have "needs", NAH! real men don't. Desires yes, but NEEDS "a real man isn't needy" My point, pay attention to his reactions to words. Put things in words that keep his defenses down. Touch him when you talk to him, put you hand on his, or his arm.

The idea here is both of you to change your perspectives on things, it is not a requirement that either of you change yourselves, but your perspectives. He wants certain things from you and he is not getting him. He needs to "see" that his approach has been ineffective and given approaches that are. Same for you, which is why we were on you at the beginning. Your perspectives need to change.

I'll leave you with the following quote Now men know this or at least most do. But does your H? Also do you appreciate that if your H isn't happy you won't be either. We are back to win-win again, aren't we?

God Bless,

JL

Or as I heard recently... "Happy wife, happy life."

Just Learning, I literally broke out in a cold sweat and teared up when I read your recommendation on how to tell my H the details. It so exactly reflects how I feel, and while I am of course not looking forward to it, having a framework in which to do it has lifted my dread a bit.

It will be some time before we have the conversation, but now I can start thinking about how to say what he needs to hear in the right way instead of trying to formulate a response to "tell me everything that happened." I want to be honest without being accidentally cruel.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am so incredibly grateful to you and the rest of the posters.

Oooooh....and she is funny too!

Saddest,

I am glad I could be of some help.

Could I make a recommendation? Thank you. Please now go back and reread this whole thread from beginning to end. I want you to see and feel how things are changing. I want you to reflect on how you saw things when you first posted and how you are seeing them now.

You have a very long way to go, but if the changes in your posting are reflecting the changes in your perceptions, then you will begin to see a path to communicating better with your H.

I will also tell you that there is pattern, or tide if you will to recovery. Your H will be and seems to be very happy to try and recover, but in approximately about 6 months give or take a little you can expect him to become angry. We see it here all of the time, it is speculated that this is caused by the marriage being on a path of recovery and the BS using primarily their giver. Once it seems like the marriage may make it all of the delayed pain/anger comes out.

One year anniversary of d-day is another point where things get dicey. My point expect ups and downs, anticipate and you will be able to handle it better than you imagine.

The patterns are always there in one form or another.

Please reread your thread.

God Bless,

JL

How does this work as a paradigm shift?

I am hyper-alert to his verbal and emotional abuse because it is a threat not only to me, but to our M.

He is hyper-alert to any indication that I am continuing my A because it is a threat not only to him, but to our M.

TOGETHER we will keep the M safe from those threats.

Am I getting closer?

Another issue -- he doesn't want to read a bunch of books and stuff to try to fix this because (1) he finds it so painful, and (2) he isn't that much of a reader. I am a voracious reader.

My response has been "that's my job", the idea being that I will cull through it all, figure out what has the greatest application to us (for example, chapters on how workplace relationships become affairs have no relevance), and give him what I think is most meaningful for us.

I made this mess, I need to fix it, but I am a little uncomfortable with this set up. On the other hand, I think asking him to plow through a bunch of irrelevant stuff is just mean.

I was certain I put SAA in my suitcase, but it isn't there so I ordered another copy -- all you armchair Freudian psychologists can have a big time with that (that is a joke.)

Please give me thoughts on the reading thing.

BTW Smilingwoman, I am sorry to hear how you ended up -- being emotionally abused is no picnic, no matter how the phrase gets bandied about. It is a hideous, soul destroying process because you never question the right of the abuser to say what they are saying or the truth of what they are saying so you put your head down and try even harder to be perfect. Obviously, you can't, and even if you could the standard keeps changing without notice and you find yourself blindsided one more time because you had no idea. Every single thing about you erodes because you can't be perfect which is bad enough, but you can't even know what that means on a day to day basis. You never have the slightest idea where the next shot is coming from, so every moment of every day is filled with enormous anxiety where your whole life force is dedicated to anticipating what is coming next and from where.


It is possible I could have gotten H's attention without the A, but I'm not so sure.

I got called down by my psychiatrist on leaving H, who shows that he really does want to change. I told my psychiatrist I didn't think my H could ever change, and he said "if you don't believe in the possibility of change, then what are you doing here?"

So ... here is to hope for change, in me and in him.

I

Correct. I'm appreciating day by day how fortunate I am to never have to try and deal with my XH again on this level. Watch the Mel Gibson 'tapes' and you will know what I lived through.

You are soooooooooo much better. Wow what a difference a week can make! You are doing great and learning a lot. Good for you.

saddest,

You asked The shift occurs when both of you see the wisdom in changing how you interact with one another. It changes when you both see that you are one, and when you hurt your spouse you hurt yourself. It changes when you start to see what this site is really about. You are starting to change some but there is more to come.

One thing that will interest you is that if you change, your H will have to change as well. If you won't tolerate his abuse, and he finds that treating you well works better, he might change. By the same token, you have to do a lot to regain his trust.

Are you seeing the symmetry in this? Now as for reading, may I suggest that you two just do the needs questionaire. It will provide you both a forum to discuss what you each expect and need from the other. He doesn't have to read the books yet, but eventually he does need to pick up the lexicon of recovery. I have always thought that one of the interesting aspects of couples that read some of this info if not all of it is that they develop a common language to discuss how they feel and respond to one another. This is particularly important for men, but since you have stated that you have surpressed your femine side, you might find this useful as well.

JL

"Another issue -- he doesn't want to read a bunch of books and stuff to try to fix this because (1) he finds it so painful, and (2) he isn't that much of a reader. I am a voracious reader.

My response has been "that's my job", the idea being that I will cull through it all, figure out what has the greatest application to us (for example, chapters on how workplace relationships become affairs have no relevance), and give him what I think is most meaningful for us.

I made this mess, I need to fix it, but I am a little uncomfortable with this set up."

You will never make a non reader want to read. So you have to do what you have to do. So don't feel bad just do it.

If BH was sick would you not bring his medicine to his bedside or would you make him get up on his own?

BW,

Please give me thoughts on the reading thing.

My wife appreciates what MB has done for our marriage, has mentioned it in her prayers a few times, but when I show her some of the postings that turned me around, she just does not get it. I think she just cannot feel empathy with stories that she reads, her empathy style is personal.

So yes sometimes the improvements have to be one sided while you wait for the other person to get it by example. In my case I just stopped my abuse of her COLD, and endured her carrying on as she had before for some time.

Awhile back you wrote.

OM is a nice enough guy but he's an admitted serial philanderer and never pretended to be otherwise.

NOT a nice guy, he disregarded your children when he had an affair with you, and likely has damaged the home environment of many other families with children, since men like him have a specific type of prey they attack.

NOT a nice guy, he left your life in flames and moved on to the next.

God Bless
Gamma

Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts DVD, $10: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_basicsdvd.html

Fall in Love, Stay in Love Unabridged Audio CD, $26.24:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6015_fall.html

His Needs, Her Needs Unabridged Audio CD: $29.99:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html

I have heard some people swear by taking your man on a car trip and listening to the audio books together.

And I'll swear by listening to FiLSiL in the car alone, more than once.

Hmm, I also just found out Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders has an audio book version, $29.99:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6080_buyer.html

There also used to be a His Needs, Her Needs, For Parents Seminar DVD, but I can no longer find it. We have it, so I know it exists. Maybe I am just missing it, or maybe it is no longer available. Don't be thrown by the "For Parents" emphasis; the book with this title is great even for those who will never be parents, and as I recall the seminar was as well.

The home study course + accountability program comes with the option for you to watch another Dr. Harley seminar online. But the course and program will involve reading. I think ultimately your husband is going to have to do some reading, but it is going to be your job to show him what is in it for him by your behavior. There are experts who can help you with this.

I am afraid that if you edit material and pass it to him that sets up a teacher/student relationship between you, which is not conducive to romantic love.

Another thing I suggest is the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook; at the very least trying to work through that might guide your husband to the important things to read in the other books.

But don't put the cart before the horse. Provide some healing for him, so he doesn't find it so painful.