Saddest, I've noticed that you throw the word "boundary" around a lot.

That seems uncharacteristic for you, since boundary is essentially a touchy-feely psychobabbly word. I rarely see it used by the Marriage Builders staff, if ever, although many on this forum are fond of it.

"Boundaries" between you and your husband are not the problem you think they are. I suggest you pitch that issue and work the program that CAN fix the marriage you and your husband share: Marriage Builders.

The only "boundaries" that I've seen you have a problem with are boundaries between you and other people. Those are the boundaries you need to work on.

Your husband needs you to throw up less walls between the two of you, not more.

I am not suggesting you tolerate any form of abuse, nor does the Marriage Builders program.

But I am suggesting you put away your psychobabble. It is not helping you, and you claim you don't like it.

These two statements are contradictory.

Then talk about something else.

Correct

As for your depression, ask yourself a serious question. Are you depressed because you feel bad about what you have done, or because you miss your affair.

And you have not answered any of the questions I posted earlier today.

Or because you're feeling overwhelmed with how much work is really involved to get to a healthy marriage?

They say recovery isn't for the weak. That's a fact.

I agree - and as I asked a day or 2 ago

X2

and since you seem to be very passive agressive... x4. You are going to have to face A LOT of things that are going to make you uncomfortable in R. No doubt. Your wanting to be alone I think is your PA coming out. Not for the reasons you stated...IMO...

"Now she says she would rather spend time alone. She can obsess easier about the OM by herself. When she has to interact with her BH, it shows how little she has done."

Lousy golfer, I want to get beaten up here -- it's why I keep coming back. But that is unfair. I'm not obsessing about OM -- when I said it was over, I meant that part too.

Squirmy feeling inside now = PAY ATTENTION TO THIS BECAUSE IT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I know OM first and last name and the city he says he is from in another country but the name is so common, it is like looking up John Smith in NYC. And I know where he works -- or at least where he says he works.

To me, the is a difference between wanting to be alone and feeling lonely. When I say I want to be alone, I mean by myself in a place where I won't be interrupted or distracted by the needs of others. H and I are so tuned into each other that it is hard to recharge in the face of his pain. I did take a break this afternoon and went without cell phone and computer to another room to read a book for a couple of hours which helped -- picked the History of World Religions instead of my favorite legal thrillers to give us something to talk about. What I have been reading has historically driven a lot of our conversations and I haven't been reading much in the last several months what with having to deal with OM and all.... The ways my A has hurt us continues to unfold.....

Boundary, self respect, limits on what you will tolerate -- the concept is all the same -- define it as all the stuff that the Giver on steroids gives up. I don't even set limits with what my DOG can demand of me -- he stands there and barks at me until I give him a treat.

What am I doing? I'm thinking. I have read the EN questionnaire so many times I could recite it. The first time I read it it might has well have been in Greek. Now it is starting to make sense. I have read every word written by Dr. Harley on this website, as well as pouring over other websites. SAA should come tomorrow -- they didn't have it in the bookstore where I am and I left my copy at home (???). I have requested a phone appointment with Dr. Harley. I am complimenting him when he is considerate, and giving him as good of real time feed back as I can -- "hear the tone of voice your used then? Lose it, permanantly." Or, conversely, when I did something today which headed off a potential problem for him he said "thank you for doing that. It was very thoughtful." and I said "more of that."

Understand this: left to his own devises, my H would sweep this under the rug and we would continue to limp along like we were before. I am going to have to take the lead on this, and I need to get it exactly right. Failure is not an option. If I don't get it right, we will go through a bunch more c*** which will cause him unnecessary pain for no good reason. There is a lot of information out there on this subject, and I want to know everything there is to know before I start the process. For every moment's pain that we endure in the process, there must be a purpose to it. For example, when I started out it was "you must tell him all the gory details" which sounded cruel to me. Then Justlearning posted that beautiful introduction to the conversation, and I read the letter to _____? (sorry -- if I go back on my browser I will lose all this) and I am comfortable now that I can do it in a loving, empathic way.

So gloveoil is right in a way -- but it's not so much that looking for excuses to not talk to my H -- we had a nice chat this afternoon, filled with awkward silences but that is going to happen -- it's that when it comes to this stuff I want to do it in the exact right way. And I have my own issues to deal with -- there isn't a thread on this website that addresses the Walk Away Wife syndrome but that's me -- to but it in MB terms, I have been in withdrawal mode for a very, very long time.

Which is an issue -- the best course of action CANNOT be self serving. I am going to have to be rigid with myself. And I am going to need you good folks to whack me around when I'm not.

Why do I want to save my M? I don't. It was sick -- a mutually assured destruction zone. I want a new one. So does he. I have been with this man for 35 years. We had something really special. We didn't take care of our M. We know it. I had an A to hurt him back, and withdrew all of my LU's and then some from the bank. He has been seriously overdrawn for years.

I want my H back. I want my best friend back. Good lord, I just started crying again -- I don't cry. Sign of weakness. But all of the sudden I miss that man I married so much.

Depression isn't the issue -- it is normal and appropriate to feel all the stuff I am feeling. I just can't let that slip into clinical depression -- that does no one any good.

D21 -- yes, she knows of the A -- I looked her in the eye today and said "you see how your dad has suffered and the pain I am in because of what I did? Sear that in your memory honey. You don't ever want to have to be a part of something like this." It resonated.

I use this forum as a substitute for my text messaging addiction to OM -- like methadone -- the fact that the advice I get is so excellent is an added benefit. I am feeling my obsessive need to FIX THIS NOW dying down, so I think my posts will become less frequent and I get more comfortable talking to H, less still (I'm sure you will all be heartbroken). I'm going to hang around this forum for a LONG time to come to give back as I get to a healthier place.

So -- a reminder -- in addition to a call for help, every post here is another text message not sent (ATMNS). It is a lovely feeling to know there are people out there I don't know who would rather me bug them than text the OM.

Fair enough, Saddest. Keep reading. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good in staying engaged with BH.

Letting the truth get to you is a sign of strength.

Withdrawal is a *itch. It's probably been recommended to you already in this 23pp. thread, but in case not, look up Mark1952's post on Managing Memories & Dealing with Triggers. It's not light reading, but there's some stuff that's applicable to the early-withdrawal phase as well as afterwards, valid for WSs as well as BSs.

I know how it feels to want to be anyplace else except where you are. It's hard, and knowing that we ourselves are to blame for where we find ourselves is hard on top of that. Just be sure to define how you're progressing in terms of how well your betrayed spouse is progressing. Many days, that won't be as fast as you'd like. But when you think that, remind yourself that it's not as fast as he'd like to be healing, either. Have each other's backs covered. (And remember, lady-in-withdrawal: OM never had your back covered... you were an optional diversion for him.)

You have been together, longer than I have been alive.

I do hope you can save your marriage.

saddest,

You want to read an interesting book? Try reading "Men made Easy", by a lady named "Oh". It is sort of a 12 step way to deal with men. I ran across this book years ago on a trip. The title sort of ticked me off, so I decided to read it. It was an easy read and took about an hour. Actually, she has some very good points and insights.

One of them I'll share with you now. She claims that women talk about their feelings from the time they are little. They talk about their emotions in great detail with friends, thus they build up phrases and vocabulary to express what they feel and think. Men on the other hand are trained to never admit they are in emotional pain or that someone has gotten to them. They just don't talk about feelings and emotions.

So when asked how they are feeling the usual answer is "fine". If you had boys you know what I am saying. One thing men do well is enjoy silence. They are not intimidated by silence women are and usually try to fill the void.

So consider how a conversation about feelings usually goes between a man and woman, especially if the man has been hurt. She asks how he feels? He says, "fine". She say "I know you don't feel fine I just ripped your heart out and stomped on it. So how do you feel." He just sits there.

Now here is Oh's advice. Just sit there realize you want to ask clarifying questions to "help" him, or provide answers for him, but just sit there. Why? Because it could take minutes or more for him to form the phrases and words that express how he feels, and he knows you won't wait so he doesn't have to. However, if you don't ask the next question, and you just sit there indicating that you will wait you are more likely to get the dialogue you want.

Your H has been abusive to you. Your comments indicate that he is rather passive agressive with you and you with him. Things are changing and one thing that has to change is him NOT conveying to you how he feels.

Here is my opinion. Anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as pain, frustration, fear, etc. If you can get him talking about what he fears what frustrates him, he is much less likely to be angry and much more likely to be successful in dealing with his anger. You are NOT his psych. nor am I, but it makes sense that if he can express what is bothering him in a constructive way you two can negotiate a solution that meets both of your needs. Remember you are very likely much better with words than he is. Also remember that the needs questionaire is NOT psycho babble. Harley is a very concrete and focussed man, you two need to be as well. The issue is do either of you know what to focus on?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Feelings are not a sign of weakness. I think this all the time, hiding my pain, guilt, anger, and even happiness and pride, what did I become? A completley uninteresting, boring person. My MC had a tough time reading me because I do not show emotion, Im like a freaking robot.

Feelings are expressed through body and facial expressions. What is it? 55% of communication is thfough facial and body cues. Another 30% is done by voice inflection, driven by emotion. The most interesting people are also some of the most emotional. Repressing feelings=BAD communication. No wonder you two are bored with each other....lol.

Also sharing feelings, I think, is a major part of O&H. How can he be O&H with you if he is not telling you how he is really feeling? How are you O&H with him if you are not sharing your feelings? I know this is a tough concept to consider. It sounds like touchy feely crap, but it is something that I think needs to be addressed. It will take a long time and lots of prctice to get in this type of habit. Drop the tough guy routine, and open up.

Just the other day I was walking out of the Gym at Hill AFB. I over heard a very large sergents conversation and he was talking about he broke down crying. (Yes I guess AF sergents cry). It just took me by suprise because he should be a hard calloused man who could beat me down if he is cross. I then realized that him expressing his feelings were probably taking a lot of weight of his shoulders, and releiving him of whatever was bothering him. He was still a tough guy, but he knew how to express himself, and I envied that a little.

I like to describe boundaries as limits and rules you impose on yourself to protect what you deem important in life. No one can impose boundaries on you, and you can't impose boundaries on others. They exist in your locus of control, your small little circle that you have control over, and it takes will power to uphold those boundaries.

A good analogy of enforcing a boundary is a diet. You have rules in your diet because you think losing weight is important in your life. No one else can force you to lose weight, and it is all up to you to ensure that it is followed. If you have no will power, and your baoundaries are lose your diet fails quickly.

The same goes with a marriage. There are rules to your marriage, you may even add a couple, because you find your marriage important. If you have weak boundaries, low willpower, then your marriage will fail.

Wow, I don't know if it's the written word that makes your terminology/communication with your H seem cold and harsh or what, but this really jumped out at me. It sounds like you're dictating what you want instead of making respecful requests. Could just be me or the style of communicating you and your H have always used, I dunno.

I don't think you have to be necessarily flowerly or syrupy but it seems like when you're speaking to your H (the one who is supposed to be the love of your life) you could tone it down a little. JMHO

BTW- we're celebrating 33 years this year.

Six days ago, I wrote my first post hours before flying up here to see my H, and I was loaded for bear. I was marshalling the defenses I collected over the last several months to keep the resentment I have been collecting over the last several years company, and if he DARED bring up the A to ME, he was going to hear every single one of them which would have been, shall we say, NOT HELPFUL. I got to the airport, checked the forum and thought �some people have a lot of nerve!� Checked the forum on the hour layover and thought wtf, they can�t ALL be wrong. On the drive from the airport I was weeping when I kissed his hand and thanked him for being willing to try. I had lost the war.. Continuing to fight with you all the first couple of days gave my brain a chance to process that I had lost the war. The days after that, you taught me that there shouldn�t be a war.

You saved my H and my M and me unending pain. I am truly humbled.

I blew up a little last night � thanks to the relief well and incredible wisdom of this forum, it was the good sort of blow. The dam is broken. We are rolling our eyes and giggling about the terms like Love Busters, but that�s ok. We are filling out the questionnaires and talking about them. Just starting I know, and I don�t relish the process, but we will get through it. We always do.

Will be coming back with questions as they arise, but not to vent � as much.

princessmeggy, I am not nearly as combative as I appear here. I'm actually pretty funny -- some of my dry humor hasn't been understood here which is to be expected in this context. I say that stuff only when I can make it funny. Thanks for the reminder to keep the tone right.

Saddest,

Yeah, I thought Love Busters and Love Bank were pretty lame when I found this site. A bit "touchy feely" if you know what I mean. BUT...over the years the terms develop meaning and they become shorthand for things much deeper.

As you and your H progress, I think the same will happen to you. As I mentioned to you earlier, this stuff offers you and your H a common lexicon to express what you feel, what you need, what you want, and what you want to give to your spouse. Hopefully, you both will learn it and communicate much better.

You know when you are really turning the corner when YOU bring up the affair and start talking about it to your H, about what you have learned and how your perspective has changed. You will know he has turned the corner when he can listen and only tighten up a little bit.

I will leave by simply stating the obvious. It isn't as important what happened in the past but what each of you have learned from it that will make your life better.

God Bless,

JL

Awesome!!

No need to come back with questions. I found that the best way to learn MB principles is by reading and replying to other peoples threads. Sapph and I will spend UA time reading and replying to threads together. I really enjoy her learning all these things, and she has learned a lot by commenting on others forums.

There are still tons of things on this website that you two can check out.

Did you end up counseling with the Harleys?

We have an appointment scheduled with the harleys. I am not sure what is going to happen on that front. If it turns out my H is not going to be traveling as much as he originally thought we will continue with the MC at home when we go back in a month, another problem. I REALLY don't want to do the phone thing for reasons too complex to go into here. I have an extremely hard time talking on the phone with people I know well about emotional matters - Im not sure I can do it with a total stranger. I think the deal killer on the harleys will likely be that I won't go the a mental health professional who takes written notes. I have excellent reasons for that too which are again too complicated to go into here. I don't know that the Harleys take notes, but most do. I guess I need to call on the phone to find out. The MC at home does not take notes, we both like him and he is face to face.

I'm not making excuses here - if it comes down to it, I'll try to work through my phone phobia. The note thing is a deal killer, period.

I'm going to have to decide whether to leave my H for a week to go to Boston to take care of my 83 year old dad while my 80 year old mother whom I despise has row major heart surgeries. Don't know the right thing to do - all other issues aside, I have x amount of emotional resources and contact with my mother leaves me emotionally depleted for days....

These were the questions I asked you about in the other thread that I thought you said you would answer. Maybe there was some confusion. Here they are:

I wrote OM an email startling similar to the one in SAA. My H is fine with it.

H & I are together in a different state 24/7, and will be for the next month plus, except for the week trip it looks like I am going to have to take to Boston to help out my dad.

The only avenue OM has is my cell phone. I haven't heard from him and don't think I will. If I do I will change the number, but I have a GREAT cell phone number.

EP's are steps taken to ensure no further contact, like moving, changing email and cell phone, changing jobs, etc.

I don't just want to skip this step -- I want to skip them all..... (that was a joke). Talking about my EN's with my H is about as palatable as talking about the A.