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If they are still seeing each other more then likely it is STILL a PA  Sorry but it's true.
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Sapphire, I am afraid you are right.  Found a little humor today, from one of the friends at OW's workplace (WH started new job in June so no longer works with her. Step one to NC if he ever chooses that route). OW's co-worker (and friend of mine and WH's) sent me this: somehow OW put bread on our table the other night and ____ and ___ (other friends who know at work) flipped out when she left..."we are NOT eating homewrecker bread!!" I am thankful for their support in the exposure. YAY. No indication from WH at this point that he really cares. But Rome wasn't built in a day. I just keep working on me & on Plan A and let my lawyer deal with any D discussion when it comes up.
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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Another question about exposure. Since he says they are back to being "only friends" and only talking, this still counts as EA and therefore A is still ongoing, even if no continued PA, right? I know that sounds stupid ... but I get a lot of babble and want to make sure I am weeding through it correctly. Yes,it is a full blown affair. That would be like a drunk going to the bar every day and drinking but changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks." That is really cute, but it is still a drink. Contact is still contact. Exposure to her parents? (Her H is already across the country and their D is pending). Oh yes, exposure to her parents might be very effective. Are you in touch with her H? Does he know all about the affair? Is work still relevant since WH does not work there anymore? WH's parents know. WHO told his parents? And what were they told?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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morning, all. Found the plan A /plan B info -- thank you. Unknowingly, I've been in plan A since Sept 2009. At least my instincts aren't all wrong.
Still praying and believing. faithful, Plan A should only last about THREE WEEKS. You are beyond 3 weeks. When you go much longer than that, you essentially enable the affair at the expense of your mental health. My suggestion to you would be to draw up a Plan B letter and go into Plan B. Once you go dark, then file for divorce in order to protect yourself legally. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? Also, have you spoken to the OW's H yourself?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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morning, all. Found the plan A /plan B info -- thank you. Unknowingly, I've been in plan A since Sept 2009. At least my instincts aren't all wrong.
Still praying and believing. faithful, Plan A should only last about THREE WEEKS. You are beyond 3 weeks. When you go much longer than that, you essentially enable the affair at the expense of your mental health. My suggestion to you would be to draw up a Plan B letter and go into Plan B. Once you go dark, then file for divorce in order to protect yourself legally. I cannot file for divorce currently. Laws in this state prevent it based on the circumstances surrounding our current state. But we already have separation papers signed and notarized, that he needs to legally adhere to (covers child support, alimony, custody, splitting property, etc. My lawyer's been through them and they are solid, so I am protected there. Thanks!Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? ordered it; it is on the way
Also, have you spoken to the OW's H yourself? He called me in Sept 2009; when I was still unaware of ANYTHING. I have not spoken to him directly. Could dig out the phone #, though, and confirm he's across the country, though. I think where you are going with this is that WH may be lying about OW's divorce being pending? OW's H called me to tell me about OW & WH but I was so in the dark then. Blindly trusting WH and believing all the fogbabble about why he wanted to leave me. Do you think I need to call him? What am I looking to find out?
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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ML, WHO told his parents? And what were they told? I told his parents. They know all of it. Their world has been rocked by this. They've been great to me and so supportive. Helping with the kids when they can, and also praying for us. They're also talking to him, from what they tell me (and the snide comments he makes) a bit at a time, pressing about the issue. Increasing pressure as time goes on, it seems.
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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I cannot file for divorce currently. Laws in this state prevent it based on the circumstances surrounding our current state. But we already have separation papers signed and notarized, that he needs to legally adhere to (covers child support, alimony, custody, splitting property, etc. My lawyer's been through them and they are solid, so I am protected there. Thanks! That is a good start! Did you read my comments about Plan B? He called me in Sept 2009; when I was still unaware of ANYTHING. I have not spoken to him directly. Could dig out the phone #, though, and confirm he's across the country, though. I think where you are going with this is that WH may be lying about OW's divorce being pending? OW's H called me to tell me about OW & WH but I was so in the dark then. Blindly trusting WH and believing all the fogbabble about why he wanted to leave me. Do you think I need to call him? What am I looking to find out? Yes, absolutely! And tell him the affairees are still in touch. If they are getting a divorce, you can help him file on grounds of adultery. Are you familiar with Plan B?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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faithful, the next step would be a complete and total DARK separation where you have no contact with him at all. Any essential communications would be handled via a designated intermediary.
It would be predicated by a Plan B letter which outlines your conditions for his return. Your conditions should be complete, verifiable no contact with the OW and a committment to recovering your marriage. We have a template letter from the book SAA I will post below.
Also, do you reside in a fault state where you can file on grounds of adultery? In some states you have a clear legal advantage when there has been adultery.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My Dear Sue,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Greg possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Greg once and for all.
Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Greg, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Greg and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing Greg.
With my love,
Jon
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, Oh yes, exposure to her parents might be very effective. Are you in touch with her H? Does he know all about the affair? OK, let me see if I can find info for OWH. And checking into her parents. Will let you know what I come up with. Thanks!
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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ML, Thanks so much for your attention to all the little details about this. I have much to learn, I am seeing. I am reading and processing as much as I can each day. That is a good start! Did you read my comments about Plan B? Yes, reading now about Plan B. Will have to spend some time there, as trying to work that out with the kiddos seems challenging. Not that I am not up for a challenge...  Will read more this weekend. Oh, you asked about if we live in a fault state. We do. BUT the specific circumstances of our current situation won't allow me to file for fault at this point. The separation papers adequately provide for me and the children, though, so it's not really an issue.
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr. I've got a FANTASTIC network, plus the forum, plus IC, so mentally, I am in pretty good shape all things considered. If I had found this forum in October, I'd have been in plan B a long time ago. The Lord is really good in giving us strength for each day. WH is being careful to keep this from DDs and engaging them pretty well -- he only comes here to see them; no overnights away from me, etc. So, I'll read some more on Plan B. I would not say my Plan A has been full on with the carrot part since Sept. More work for me on avoiding LBs, and figuring out his ENs with no info from him. Lots of room for self-examination here. I know that makes it sound like I am avoiding Plan B. I am giving it consideration as I read about it. SAA should be here any day and I'll give that a read, too, and we'll go from there. Thanks, ML!
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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I've got a FANTASTIC network, plus the forum, plus IC, so mentally, I am in pretty good shape all things considered. If I had found this forum in October, I'd have been in plan B a long time ago. faithful, the problem with a prolonged Plan A is that you train your WS to be abusive and diminish the chances of EVER recovering your marriage. See, he has been getting his needs met in TWO places for a very long time. So you are training him to expect this. On the other hand if you go into Plan B, only the OW is there to meet his needs. She only meets 1-2 top needs at best, so when you are removed, the affair quickly crumbles. Essentially, staying in Plan A too long as you have, props up the affair and increases your chance of divorce. Dr Harley DOES NOT reccommend that at all. Plan A is not meant to be a way of life, but a VERY SHORT phase that precedes Plan B. Plan A is very attractive to conflict avoiders who are afraid of action. Unfortunately, they usually end up in divorce or horribly abusive marriages.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML:
OH. OH DEAR. HMMMMMM. I see how this makes sense. OH DEAR. OH DEAR. Just when you think you know what you are doing...
OK. Must think on Plan B. And must get some sleep...
Will be back online sometime this weekend. Is Plan B laid out in SAA? I'm hunting through the forum for reading, too.
Thanks again, ML. Looking toward Plan B...
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Scotty & ML,
Thanks for the info on Plan B. My SAA book did not arrive yet, so as I am starting to piece plan B together, I have some questions. Can someone point me in a good direction?
(1) read on a post about intermediaries that letting WH come to the marital home for children visitation is not a good idea as it gives a "home fix". Thoughts on this? My kids are too young (ages 5 & 2) to be out and I don't want them to have to leave their home every time they see Daddy. WH does not have an acceptable place to take them per our separation agreement, so there are not any overnights allowed at this point. WH comes 2x per week from 5pm til 7:30pm (bedtime) when he puts kids to bed unless I am home, in which case he leaves & I put them to bed. Do I leave as soon as he gets there, come back as he puts kids to bed, no talking? Or just hang out in another room? Or some combination?
(2) I don't have any good thoughts on who an intermediary would be. Can Plan B involve emailing directly with me, ONLY to schedule time with DDs, and the occasional financial (I need to send him once a month the details and dollars of the things he has to pay for above & beyond the child support). Or is that way out of line with what works in Plan B?
(3) I read some postings in a few threads the other day, which I can't find again yet, but I am looking, from some Christians. Not saying you are, or aren't b/c I don't know. But I am looking for some Biblical support of how Plan B is appropriate? I am not saying it isn't - just wondered if someone has some stuff researched that would be able to help while I wrestle through it?
*** have confirmed that WH is back to lying about the PA. Just not lying well right now. So, Sapphire, you were right. Still talking led to seeing again led to ______. WH is still W.
Positive note from that: at least I am not allowing myself to be deceived by his attempts to cover it up. Plus 1 for me tonight.
Last edited by faithful2theend; 07/16/10 10:29 PM. Reason: added clarification to question 2 about emailing directly to me, not through intermediary
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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No dear, there is no allowing your WH in your home PERIOD. Also NO CONTACT with you AT ALL. You need to get an intermediary that will have your interests and those of your children at the TOP.
When you go into Plan B, your WH WILL try to break you. He will try to get to you by phone, email and text. He may even try to come to see you.
Your WH will have to figure out where he takes the kiddos. Even if he takes them to the park or a McDonalds. You need to get this all figured out BEFORE you go into PLan B. Your finances has to be figured out too because even though you have an IM, you want limited contact even through them.
For my IM, I use a couple who are close family friends(my kids call them grandma and grandpa IM). I try not to send messages through them but it is necessary sometimes.
Plan Aing coming along well? Do you have any questions? I will toss you out a line that I used to use during my PLan A. "I will not accept a marriage where you have a girlfriend, thanx for making dinner." Just change the last part to suit your sitch, like, "Want a cookie?" Have you read my thread? It's about page 43 that I entered into PLan B. You can see what was advised to me.
I am sorry, I don't have any of the biblical support you are looking for. I know that Mark does a lot of posts about the bible. There are a lot of people on these boards who are Christian, so it would be hard to narrow that down.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Scotty, Thanks. Brought up your thread in a new tab. Will start there next. So much to read and process. Plan A is going OK, but I am thinking Plan B is coming sooner rather than later. Found out tonight that WH picked up OW from the airport after her week away. After he told me he had to work. Niiiiice. But not surprising. Especially since he moved out again and said I was controlling him by wanting to watch his cell phone for contact with OW. Will focus on a good weekend this weekend. No LBs. Away for today & tomorrow, visit with WH on Sunday afternoon. We will see what new fog babble I get. Always an adventure Thanks for keeping up with me. More plan B studying ensues.
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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Thought of another question. Found out about a whopper lie yesterday. Can you bring that up in an email? Or is that better addressed in person (still in Plan A right now). As in ... "WH, I know how much you prefer direct answers to direct questions when you ask me something. Why did you tell me maybe when I asked if you had been to the airport? Would you like a cookie"?
Or do you have to phrase it like a statement. Would that be a LB the way I asked above?
me: BS 33
WH 35
DD 5
DD 2
married 11 years
currently separated but on my knees daily praying for recovery
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