Just checking in with a few new developments...

We have mandatory mediation scheduled on August 2 and the WW is acting like everything is going to be settled on that date.

She know I will accept nothing less than 50% custody and staying in our house. In my state, there is no such thing as "primary" custody, but me keeping the house and school zone priority is an actual advantage.

I found text messages and lists where she has been looking at some houses for sale in the area, then she has made a comment or two that leads me to believe she is going to capitulate on the 50% custody and the house.

We're still living together in De' tante (Spelling?), but she has curbed her drinking and partying with friends. I assume this is at her lawyer's advice.

She did drop a bomb on me that she had scheduled a family counselor for August 8, to help the kids work through the separation. I said something about her being so optimistic it would be over after mediation, but she didn't respond. Anyway, I told her I would like to meet this counselor first and that maybe she could give some good advice on how we tell the children. The WW reluctantly agreed to this.

I dropped both boys off at our neighbors church this morning for bus ride to a summer camp they will spend all week at. The neighbor's kids go along to this camp and they all have a lot of fun, so it will be good for the boys.

Me, I'm off to Lake Tahoe this morning for a three-day work conference. It will be good to get away and not have to endure the WW in the same house without the kids. We are fine there together when the kids are around to interact with, but it would be very awkward being just the two of us there.

I am having our neighbor watch the driveway for any strange cars or visitors. I will blow a gasket if she brings her filth into my house!

Hey schtoop,

Best of luck getting a deal that works for you....

The word is actually 'detente', but there are probably higher priorities than spelling at the moment.......

Do you own due-diligence regarding your assets and liabilities -- more than just the house and custody. Know what you want to keep, know what you can do without, and know what you might like to trade with her.....

You're going into a phase with a different mindset, so just be cognizant of that.....

You sound pretty good....

TBC

You told her that bringing her affair partners into your home was unacceptable, right?


She wants to spin her story and make adultery seem like no big deal, just an acceptable way to deal with her inability to participate in a legitimate relationship fairly and equally. To bring in a counsellor who is on board with this twisted sick thinking (and many are), will legitimize her position. It will also destroy your childrens' sense of right and wrong and make them potential cheaters in their relationships.
---sorry if I'm not clear or if I'm missing something. I'm very tired but I'm also very upset. You know how I am about ICs. And I know what your WW is up to: absolutely no good. She's screened this guy and she knows what she's getting. I am very concerned for your kids on this one Schtoop. Very concerned.

opt

Schtoop, I double-ditto opt's concern. An active wayward independently seeking counseling is up to no good. There is absolutely NO CHANCE she's looking for anything but some form of acceptance and reinforcement for her abhorrent behavior. Or worse.

I agree. I don't think a "family" counselor is appropriate during divorce proceedings. She could also use it against you in court. I would steer clear. I would not agree to any counselling at this point.

OK, here's the deal.

This counselor was recommended by our old MC. At my request, my wife scheduled another meeting with just the two of us. The purpose is to give us some guidance on what and how to tell the kids and how to help them to adjust afterwards.

With 50/50 custody being the (very) likely outcome, it is in the BEST INTEREST of the children for us to work together as effectively as possible, both during and after the divorce. The professional counselor might just have some education and experience on guiding the children through this. I know that I don't.

Since we are 100% splitting now, I could give a rat's rear about her affair anymore.

I also don't care about if what I am doing is MB's or not, and I don't care about the bias against other counselors that I see on these boards. There are a ton of professional, competent counselors out there that can and do help with family problems.

I will be careful in what I say, but demonstrating the ability and inclination to work WITH the wife during and after the divorce process can only work in my favor in court.

Schtoop, I know you'll use good judgement. And I realize you want to be careful what you say, and believe me I understand what's at stake have just been through it.

To be more specific about my concern, it is this:
Your WW is most likely going to want to glaze over the whole adultery part of this, so as not to take any blame or responsibility for the current situation. If your IC/MC/counselor is like most, he/she will also take this approach with the philosophy that it's best not to damage the mother/child relationship. They will point to the very close association kids have with their parents regarding taking on their feelings of guilt and responsibility (i.e. if Mommy's bad, then I must be bad too, because I'm part of her).

Here's the rub: there are tactful, age appropriate, and responsible ways to teach kids that adultery (and other things) are wrong. Sometimes parents are wrong. Teaching them to glaze over mistakes makes it MORE wrong, not less. But when a child has three adults telling them "mommy and daddy just couldn't get along anymore, that's why they're getting divorced" you leave them very confused about that OTHER part (where mommy had a boyfriend and was staying out all night). They're left confused about if that part had anything to do with it. Confusing lines between right and wrong is never a good thing for a child.

I also believe that purposefully neglecting to address important aspects of a situation teaches them dishonesty. They pick up that as long as we don't talk about it, it's okay, or it didn't happen, or nobody will get hurt. They learn to lie by omission.


If you can work out that piece between you and your children, I personally feel you'll be much better off. The rest of what your counsellor (and WW) are likely to teach the kids is worthwhile: it wasn't their fault, they did nothing wrong, it's okay to express their feelings, it's okay to be sad about the divorce, it's VERY okay to love mommy and daddy very much even though they might be sad/angry/upset, mom and dad love them very very much no matter what, they'll always be protected and safe through all of this, they can still see all the grandmas and grampas and cousins, they'll still see both mom and dad a lot, they'll still have all the things they need, and most important: it wasn't their fault.

I'm really glad to hear the issue of the affair is not bothering you anymore - sounds like you're moving on and that's a very good thing, schtoop.

I hope you get 50/50. That's what I have and it's working out very well. I've heard it can be a bad deal as no one parent has a final say on anything (like moving to a school district, etc) and forces you to really work things out with the ex, even down the road when they may turn crazy or get involved with someone who wants certain things. I didn't know any of that before I made my deal, so I'm pointing it out to you just in case. you might want to try for 51/49.

Opt

Hey Opt,

Thanks for chiming in. I had a pretty detailed reply typed up, but it got lost in the ether with a bad wireless connection at the airport yesterday.

Bottom line, I'm going to do a lot of reading on the subject (have started already) and go in with an open mind to what the counselor may say, and also make the very arguments you have here on why the children should be told. After that, we will make a decision, together.

I have read arguments on both sides about how much to tell the children when infidelity is involved. Where there is agreement, however, is in not placing the "blame" for the divorce on any one parent. So it really is a tight line to walk. If it turns out that not telling the kids is the right thing to do, I'm OK with that. And, I would never do it just for retribution or my pound of flesh.

How and what to tell the kids has a lot to do with how much of the OW/OM they've been exposed to. Considering that, you may be able to use that to influence your WW to keep the kids clear of OM and out of his life for at least a year. Otherwise, the discussions with the children may need to acknowledge and include the affair to some degree.

I would have done anything to keep my kids away from the OW. Instead, he moved them in with her immediately and set up his "replacement family" in another town. As a result, my counselor advised me to tell the children that daddy broke the rules of being married, so we can't stay married any more. It worked for them considering their age.

Your WW may not want to be considered that responsible in her children's eyes. So you might be able to use that sentiment to keep OM away from kids.

Great point, fellspointmom.

No, to this point she has not mixed the kids with (any of) the OM at all. Other than her being away from the house a bunch of evenings, their day to day life hasn't been influenced much at all by her affair. That is the only reason I would consider not telling them all the details.

You do have a great point about using it for leverage to keep the OM away from the kids.

From everything I have gathered and from conversations with WW, the relationship with OM is not that deep. She says they are not "in love" and don't say ILY. Also, from my one conversation with him and from contact patterns, I believe she is chasing after him more than he is reciprocating. Throw in recent tryst with other OM, it doesn't point to her shacking up with him as soon as she moves out, which is certainly desirable from protecting the kids standpoint.

I even asked her point blank a little bit ago if she was going to resume things with OM#1 now that we are splitting, or is she just going to play the field. Her response was that she needs to "find myself first", whatever that means.

I hope it means that she carries on in private when I have the kids, and leaves it alone when she has them. If by not telling the kids I can leverage that situation, it might be a good plan.

That's right schtoop. You have good info from FPM and it sounds like you have the right approach to protect your kids without damaging them or their relationship with their mother, even if she is wrong as he77 (she's still their mom).

If the exposure is minimal, then down the road (and I forget your kids ages, sorry), might be okay to give the the "real" story. Like when they start getting into serious LTR's (or before).

I really feel that us BS's (and especially us FWS/BS's like me ) have a huge responsibility to do everything we can to stop the perpetuation of infidelity in the next generation. My STBXww's father was a notorious cheater and is now engaged to a woman he rekindled with while his wife at the time was dying of lung disease. My grandfather was a philanderer and I often think stories of that influenced me when I was wayward.

good luck schtoop.

opt

About time for a weekly update....

We are still coexisting in the house just waiting for our mediation day on August 2.

I have been keeping what I call "radio silence" this whole time, being cordial around the WW without discussing any specifics of the divorce proceedings or plans.

That all changed on Saturday, as we were home alone with the kids at a summer camp. She started the conversation wanting to know what we could agree on ourselves before hand so that mediation could go quickly and smoothly, and I kind of got sucked into the conversation.

Turns out to be a pretty good thing from my end. It looks like we are going to agree on 50/50 legal and physical custody. She also agreed to let me buy her out of the house and to move out as soon as an agreement is reached. She justified it by saying she has no emotional attachment to this house and that the kids would be just fine and excited about finding a new house. I didn't go into my reasons for wanting to stay, but needless to say they need the stability of staying in the only house they've ever known, even if it is only half the time. And, I want to be the one who provides that stability. This also means that my residence establishes school zones.

I also like how she justified ripping the family apart with the "they will be just fine" comment, but I bit my tongue and didn't take the bait there.

Other than those two major concessions, the rest of the process of dividing assets and debts is pretty cut and dried at 50/50 split. She hasn't said anything about this yet, but she will also have to pay me a modest amount of child support as she makes a good bit more money than I do.

The WW is still very wayward and it looks like she is back pursuing OM #1 hard. She spent some time with him while I had the boys away on the 4th of July weekend and on other occasions since then. She denied it when I asked if she was "hot and heavy" with him now and said she's not looking for a serious relationship with anybody.

I then asked her if the boys had ever been exposed to him, which she vehemently denied. She says that she is very serious about keeping her "business" away from the boys unless a relationship was to really progress somewhere down the line. I got her to agree to have the courtesy to tell me before she ever introduces the boys to a new man, and that I would return the same consideration if I ever did. She can do and see who she wants, but bringing it into the boys' life is something totally different. At least tell me first so I don't have to hear about some other man from the kids.

There were some other points of the division of property that we did not agree on, but I won't go into that here and think they can be worked out.

The whole long conversation did get me worked up and I was keyed up most of the next two days. I don't know if it is because the finality of divorce is almost upon me and this conversation hammered that home (maybe)? or did the conversation stir up my feelings of resentment, betrayal, and abandoment (without a doubt)? Or is it just the uncertainty of the future? Probably all of that and more is still festering under the surface.

At any rate, it's looking more and more like it will all be over soon. Then I get follow Optimism's road, trying to set boundaries and establish a cooperative, yet distant relationship with the STBXW as we "co-parent" our children. The thought makes me want to barf just typing it.

Schtoop, this sounds just like my deal. So far so good, although you've already heard the advantage of trying to get 51/49. I'm banking on being able to come to some agreement with the ex long-term, I guess we'll see. I didn't know the 50/50 could be a problem when I got on this train. The last part about school zones is really important for down the road. If you can get that, then good going.

Ask for more than you want in at least a few cases, and let the mediating lawyer "put you in your place" a couple times. She'll feel like she's getting something. Nothing wrong with a little strategy.

You kids will be fine, as long as you continue to make them a priority in your life.

Let me know how this goes. I could use all the pointers I can get!

opt

Those boundaries become even more important once she moves out of the house. They will help establish a basis long term. The first one I had to set that was really hard was he wasn't allowed in the house period. I wavered on that at first and it caused a lot of problems.

Make them clear and business like. A lot of stuff is spelled out in the parenting plan, such as drop off and pick up times and by whom. Stick to these like glue.
These will also include NOT communicating through the kids, talk only about kid related stuff nothing else. When you drop or she picks up no coming in the house, she can wait at the door. This will help keep you sane.

Worthy

Wow, those are good. I have not established these very well and I can attest to the discomfort one gets without these boundaries. Schtoop, you're better off just making it clear from the get-go how things are going to be. I have trouble with the boundaries (I hate to hurt her feelings even if she is spawn of the devil), so I have resorted to "in order for me to recover" and "I'm trying to move on."

I hope you do this better than I did.

opt

Um, I find this statement so sad. You must be a great guy cause she certainly didn't spare your feelings or your children by having the affair. Like you said just say, I have to set these boundaries in order to recover and move on, and she needs to respect that period!

Worthy

Hey Schtoop I never got around to addressing this comment above before I left for the weekend. The finality of the divorce is definitely not upon you. Each step is just that, a step. You have to go through the mediation process, that could be 4-6 weeks. Then the lawyer you had for that files and you wait to get a court date (3-6 weeks). She has to move out (who knows when....), but that's another step in the process. Then you'll have your court hearing (maybe a couple months from the filing). Then the judge will give a 90 to 120 day waiting period for it all to be final.

This was my timeline and it seemed like an eternity (and I still have 53 days left (well...52 days and 4.5 hours ). You'll have all kinds of different outlooks through all of it, so expect to be "keyed up" for a few days about whatever, then depressed about something for a few days, then lonely for a week or so, then confused. It's all good, kid, all good. Just keep coming back to the kids and you'll have your priorities right there.

This is how it's been for me so far. I hope that gives you some perspective. Of course this is all assuming similar legal circumstances and a lot of other things, but it gives you a general sense.

Opt

Opt,

You're right about it not being "over" for a long time. Even after all the legal maneuverings are done, I will still have to deal with her on a nearly daily basis as we work out our "co-parenting" (I hate that term and the whole idea of it).

Another great weekend with the boys. We went to the coast again to visit my mother and my oldest sister's family. Spent saturday towing the kids behind the boat on inner tubes and kneeboard, then spent Sunday at the beach playing in the surf and snorkeling. The boys love to get together with their cousins and it's nice for me to be around family now.

WW did her quarterly kid's show at church (first one we've missed) on Saturday, but she didn't have a problem with the boys not being there. I notice from the state of the house, bedroom, and bathroom that she had not stayed there this weekend. I also checked her text messages and she couldn't wait to finish the church show so that she could go out to the bar with OM and her enabling friends. So nice, one big happy group (gag).

At least she didn't bring it into my house.

schtoop that's just about what I did this w/e! Did you try the tubes? I had a great time doing that.

It's like we're living in a parallel universe, lol.

opt


I know, it really bothers you because you're still married! Unbelievable how the wayward is able to redefine concepts (like a little thing called "marriage") to suit their slimy behavior. I wish I could tell you how to deal with this but I just don't know. Just don't lower your own standards based on that insanity - I've been tempted. It would be easy to compare bad behavior with really bad behavior and come out smelling like a rose, but your ideals are higher.

[quote=optimism]Just don't lower your own standards based on that insanity - I've been tempted./quote]
Sorry for the t/j, but I hope this "speaks" to you as well.

My divorce has been final for almost seven weeks. This evening I spied a woman I've been attracted to for months. I've never spoken with her other than a passing greeting, since I was still married at the time.

Tonight, being a single man again, I had no such self-imposed limitations. I've wanted to ask her out.

But I didn't. The thought crossed my mind: "You've only been divorced a month and a half. You shouldn't rush into things."

Part of this is my own lack of confidence (I have never been a "dater") but part of it is recognition that I still have a ways to go before I am healthy enough to date a woman without me bringing a lot of baggage along.

With all the uncertainty in my life today -- and in the world in general, I've decided to not be in a hurry anymore. About ANYTHING.