From the SAA forum, that is.

Here's a link to my thread over there, not that it's too important at this point.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2313483#Post2313483

The short story, D-day was on Jan. 24, 2010. My wife had been spending more and more time away from the house, at the gym, at friends' houses, going out to bars with friends until all hours of the night. That night she came home at 4:00 in the morning and I checked her cell phone. The messages were a kick in the gut. She admitted to it when confronted and said that it had been going on for 6 months. Of course, I got the "I haven't loved you for years" speech.

I found MB in the next week, but could never get her to buy in or even read the books. I was able to get her to go to a MC. I got weak NC promises on several different occasions, but they never stuck.

Nor did she ever give up her mid-life crisis, party girl lifestyle. Never worked on the things the MC said we need to do.

I have been on the edge of pulling the plug for several weeks now, but found the final straw yesterday. She started up a hot and heavy facebook affair with some young predator she met a wedding last weekend, complete with cybersex and nude photos.

I told her we were done at our final MC meeting yesterday. The counselor asked what she felt about this, and she replied very matter-of-factly that she agreed and that this was a huge relief.

Doing this with the MC was very helpful. He counseled us on what the children will be feeling and going through, what to expect from the divorce process, and how to try to separate the business of divorce from the pain and anger we both feel.

He admitted that with the level of betrayal I have experienced, and as withdrawn as she was, that splitting was the right thing to do (and he was VERY pro-marriage).

So, I have a meeting set up with a lawyer on Monday where I will put down a sizeable retainer. The retainer is large because he knows that I will want residential custody of the boys and child support, and that we will likely not settle easily.

Just one more in a string of "worst days of my life" from this damn woman.

Today, I do feel a sense of relief that it will soon be over and am looking forward to starting my new life. It will be a welcome relief to emotionally detach from this alien that has cause me so much hurt over the last year.

schtoop, I am so sorry that your marriage did not survive. At least you know that you tried and did your best.

My petition has been filed. I waited until I was emotionally divorced before starting the paperwork but it was easier for me because WS and I haven't lived together for 2 years now.

I hope that you will continue to come to MB for any support or advice you may need on your next journey, even if it is just as a lurker, like me.

TM

Hi schtoop, I've read much of your original thread. I'm sorry you are here. I think you've made the right decision; your wife seems to be one of those waywards who has slipped beyond redemption.

Right now you're understandably angry. It's a natural part of the grieving process. Your personal healing will begin once you've passed that stage into the acceptance phase.

You have children, so the first focus should be on them, and you have already indicated your desire to do so. Good for you.

You will be fine. Stick around here and let us help you heal as you help others find their way to recovery.

I am quite satisfied that I did everything I could do to revive this marriage. I KNOW I did my best and that there was nothing I could do in the end to bring it back anyway.

Time for a little venting.

I believe that the MB's program is based on sound concepts and one of the best programs out there, especially when an affair is involved. I find Dr. Harley's books extremely insightful. I believe it can work wonders when both partners are fully invested.

I also know that no program can work when one is not interested in recovery.

**edit**

That being said, I will keep lurking and posting as it is helpful being in a community that is experiencing similar problems to mine where we can share and learn from each others common experiences.

Good job, schtoop.

I haven't made the transition over here yet, but my predicament clearly warrants setting up shop here. It's definitely on my to-do list......

Regardless, the learning process continues.....

TBC

Thanks for checking in, TBC.

Just for an update, it was Thursday afternoon in our MC session that I let it be known that I knew about her new FB romance and that it was officially over. Her reaction was a stoic "I agree".

I had already set up an appointment with a lawyer for Monday morning, but somehow she beat me to the punch and met with hers Friday afternoon. She must have had something set up already, perhaps on retainer?

Anyway, her lawyer is more of lamb who likes to settle before trial it turns out. Me, I shopped around for recommendations and this one name kept coming up as one of the best in town. If one of us is going to have a bulldog, it might as well be me, right?

My lawyer thinks I have a great case for 50%+ custody and we hope that I get to stay in the house. That's my goal.

I have a feeling my WW is going to sh@t a brick when she learns who I've hired. Up to this point I have been very cordial and cooperative, like I want this to go as easy as possible (which is partly right). At the same time, I have avoided any talk of specifics or tipping my hand.

What's really bizaar is that I would have expected her lawyer to advise her to scale way back on the partying and time away from the kids. However, I intercepted a FB message from her new FB lover/predator where they are making plans to meet, possibly with him driving to our town, in the next month or so.

If she spends another weekend away from the kids and hooking up with strange men, she is basically handing me custody on a silver platter.

The strange journey continues....

Stay strong and don't lay down. You might THINK you are smoothing the road, however, all you are doing is laying under her wheels so she doesn't feel the bumps as she drives over you.

I laid down and was ran over. I did it to get the 50% custody. I got it, so I won, however, if I was to do it again, I would have simply fought it out in court. I would probably have still gotten custody and would have paid a WHOLE LOT LESS.

Just fight it out... don't bicker about crap, but don't let her pull the inevitable "I'm the mom" kind of crap. It really doesn't matter nearly as much any more.

Don't worry, I'm not laying down.

I'm ACTING nice and cooperative right now, but am also busy laying all the groundwork for an anticipated slugfest. The more I play dumb and nice, the more I let her carry on as she will, the more element of surprise I'll have when it's time to take the gloves off.

Update...

She filed first and gave me the petition of dissolution personally Monday night.

I will sign my counter-petition this morning (Friday).

Neither of us will leave the house, so we are going to coexist as room mates until it is settled. Life has been kind of surreal right now, we live in the same house and even talk to each other about day to day matters. The kids are away at camp this week, so its just the two of us and we don't need to put on an act for them.

The night before last we even worked together to assemble all the financial documents the court is asking for. Last night she got crab legs from the grocery store and we shared them for dinner.

We talked about time with the kids, and agreed to kind of split weekends. I will take them to the coast for fishing and boating on father's day weekend and on July 4th weekend. She has an activity planned for them this saturday and there's a cub scout event two weeks from Saturday that she wants them to go to (I plan to tag along as well).

I know this is all a plan to scale back her partying and time away from the kids until things are settled. If she didn't receive this advice from her lawyer than he should be fired.

I'm starting to detach from her emotionally. We can be in the same house, talking normally or watching TV and I'm not pining away for her, nor am I as angry as I once was. She's just there and I don't care, and I hope that is healthy.

From what I've read, schtoop, your Love Bank is overdrawn and you have now mentally and emotionally left the relationship. Feeling detached then, is a good thing. Just make sure that it's truly detachment you feel, and not resentment.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

Yup, I know that feeling. It's like I've already gone through the pain, now I just want to acknowledge that she's still around but will soon enough be in my rearview mirror. Don't be surprised if the pain and resentment resurface at some point though, that's natural. She essentially walked away from you and your family and that's a hard thing to just overlook.

My only concern with the trying to play "nicey nice" was the message being sent to my kids, and I still wrestle with it. I really really don't want them to look at divorce as a viable option "in case the whole marriage thing doesn't work out." I don't want them to have the same sense of comfort that my wife obviously did with dissolving the marriage without putting any effort into making it better. I certainly never saw it as an option, but here I am. It's like the conversation Scot had with some of her off-base family members "Nobody ever really takes their marriage vows seriously." I wonder now if my wife did. I know I did (even if I was f-d up in the head for doing so at the time, I really thought of it as a commitment; especially when taking the kids into consideration.)

I've resolved to continue to take opportunities when they arise and in age-appropriate ways to let my kids know that this was the best I could do. I regrettably couldn't keep the marriage together and am really trying hard to learn from my mistakes. Ultimately I'll try to teach them the principles of a good marriage through example and essentially how I treat them and how I expect them to treat each other. The D is the ultimate "do as I say, not as I do," but the recovery and the response to a bad situation can, with perseverance on my part be "this is how to overcome adversity and develop strong sense of self, which is where good relationships start."

good luck schtoop, she's leaving a good man.

opt

Is the fantasy starting to crumble???

Sunday evenings we have always grilled steaks, and enjoyed a bottle or two of wine and conversation with and after dinner. This Sunday was no different.

The conversation drifted to the kids and upcoming summer/school/soccer plans. From there it lead into a little talk of co-parenting after the divorce. She still remembers me clearly say that we wouldn't be friends, and that I wouldn't cooperate with her "fantasy" divorce.

You know the fantasy; where I move out (but not too far away), get one day a week and every other weekend, yet am at her beckon call for after school duties and whatever other free nanny services she wants me to provide. Oh, and pay child support on top of that even though she makes nearly twice my salary. All this with a smile on my face and a facade of "friendship". Never mind that she was the one who stepped outside of our marriage with adultery, spends night after night partying instead of being with the kids, and sleeping the day away when she is here.

Anyway, I assured her that we can co-parent without any open hostilities and will always do what is best for the boys. I pointed how we are doing exactly that under the same roof right now and even getting along OK now that the emotional bond is out of the way.

She then said "see, I'm not such a evil and horrible person." I had to respond to that one, and I simply stated "Yet, you sure acted mean and horrible to me."

Monday morning I gave her copies of my counter-petition to her initial filing as she left for work. The big bomb was asking for majority custody. Last night she was not in a very good mood and retired to the bedroom as soon as the kids went to bed.

This morning we talked a little and told her how I would like to take the kids to the coast for Father's day weekend. She said that was OK, but she's not comfortable with me "whisking the boys away" all the time on the weekends. She asked if I was trying to make her look like a bad mother (like she needs my help there).

I think she might be starting to figure out that I am not going to roll over for her anymore, and she might be starting to worry. I still don't think she will have a clue as to how well prepared I am to fight for the boys. We'll see how it plays out.

schtoop, I think I would have died after my parents' divorce were it not for the lovely vacations my father took us on. Too bad she's not "comfortable" with that, but thank God it doesn't matter what she's "comfortable" with, as you are their father and have the right to take your boys on a vacation any time you want during the time you have custody of them.

I would be wary of attempts by her to suppress this, and I think I would build up a track record now of being trustworthy as far as taking them and bringing them back according to agreement/decree. Consult with your attorney, of course.

Wow, schtoop...we have almost identical D-Days however I can't imagine still living under the same roof like you are! Sounds like you are doing things right and you can look back on this knowing you did everything you could to try to fight for your M.

I'm glad you have a good attorney and I'm sure your atty. has told you to document everything...whenever your WW goes out, when she gets home, when she sleeps all day, what you do with the boys, etc.

Interesting that, despite everything she's done, your WW is now concerned with looking like a 'bad mother', isn't it?

Don't worry, I have a track record of weekends with the boys.

My mom lives down at the coast and we visit her house often. There have also been a number of scouting weekend campouts, camping by ourselves, and visits to other relatives that I have taken them on. I counted a dozen such trips in the last year.

Me and the boys getting away every now and then on weekends is nothing new.

She is only objecting now because she's starting to realize how it will reflect on the upcoming custody fight.

My story is similiar to yours. I tried to save the marriage after infidelity but my ex was not willing to buy into the recovery. I remained in the same house with my ex until we signed the divorce papers. Everyone here told me that it was foolish and destructive. They advised me to go to a dark plan B for my own sanity. It was hard at times but the the time did pass. I'm glad that I stayed in the same house. It made keeping an eye on him much easier. I would advise you to try to agree to as much as possible with you stbxw. It has been my experience that the lawyers (even bulldogs - I had one) don't really care about your well-being. It is a job to them. The longer they drag it out, the more money they make. Try to work with your ex as much as possible. It will save you time, grief, and money. It will also result in a better settlement agreement if she is reasonable. The courts will not award either party a much better arrangement- and it could end up being much worse. Many cases that end up in court have surprisingly unfair outcomes. The courts will do what is best for the children - which they usually think involves both parents fairly equally.

I was able to negotiate with my ex-husband and we decided how to split everything. I didn't ask for the moon and he was fair. He wanted to be single and free. It made for a lightning-fast divorce. It was also a very fair settlement. This was my second divorce. There were no children involved in this marriage.

My first marriage involved two small children and no infidelity. I negotiated my first divorce also with similiar results. My only concern during my first divorce was my children. I got joint-custody. My ex was a good father and my children needed his influence. We raised the children together. My children are now 19 and 21 and have a good relationship with both parents.

Good luck. This time will not last forever. Things do get better.

That is all good advice stillstanding2!

I would love to come to an agreement, but it needs to be fair. And, the only way I can ensure it is fair is to come from a position of power.

Right now I am being very cooperative and we are working together to get all the financial information put together. I am not going to fight or disagree until there is something to disagree about.

Good! It sounded like you were putting everything in your "bulldog" attorney's hands. That would be an expensive mistake IMHO. Knowledge is power. Know your state's laws. Ask your divorced friends about the judges. Know what is likely to happen in your state with regard to custody. In some states, infidelity matters not at all. In other states, it still matters. Know what kind of state you live in. Find out what the courts care about. Find out what your wife wants most out of the divorce. What do you want most from the divorce? The more you know, the better you can negotiate your future. Don't haggle over the unimportant stuff just to piss each other off (it doesn't sound like you are doing that but it is common). Give a little to get a little.

Again, good luck! Divorce sucks!

Weekly update.....

I took the boys and my boat and spent Father's day weekend at our little place on the coast. My good friend and neighbor was also down there with other friends and his kids (who are best friends with my boy). We spent two days fishing, hanging out at the beach, swimming at the pool, cooking seafood and hanging out. Really a nice time!

Sunday morning I asked my oldest if he knew what day it was. After few minutes he remembered it was father's day and gave me an awkward little hug in his own unique way (he thinks he's too old for hugs and kisses, especially with a "man"). Made me melt inside. The boys said they didn't have anything to give me, and I told them that just spending the weekend with me like this was the best gift I could have.

WW stayed at the house all weekend with big party plans. I managed to check her text messages this morning while she was in the shower and she spent all night Saturday screwing yet another man that a friend set her up with.

She can do what she wants now that we are officially splitting, but she's making my bid for majority custody look more and more like the right thing to do.

Also saw one text message about looking at a couple of houses. Is she seeing the writing on the wall that she will have to be the one to move out? I hope so.

About to go meet with my lawyer to file my financial affidavit. Mediation is going to be scheduled August 2nd or 3rd.

Oh, Friday was my anniversary and tomorrow is my birthday.

I have mixed emotions responding to your post, Schtoop. I am delighted you got to spend Father's Day with your kids. My daughter took me out for dinner and we had a great time.

She gave me a card. The cover had two images on it: "Before kids," showing a dapper, handsome young man. "After kids," with a balding, grizzled older dude. Open the card and it says, "I was worth it, wasn't I, Dad? Dad?"

"You were absolutely worth it," I told her. I gave her a hug and a kiss when I dropped her off at her home.

On the other hand, the hair on the back of my neck stood on end when I read "she spent all night Saturday screwing yet another man that a friend set her up with."

Who has friends like that? What sort of devilish people do this stuff? How do they live with themselves (no need to answer, I know these are rhetorical questions)?

Today is/was my anniversary. I "celebrated" by taking the last vestiges of our marriage -- the wedding album -- to the curb. In the trash bin.

I have mixed emotions about anniversaries and other reminders of our wedding.

If my wedding day wasn't among the happiest days in my life (it was), then it certainly was a milestone that signified me growing up, taking responsibility for someone other than myself, and beginning step to having a family of my own. I am immensely proud of what I have become and the family I am raising.

We also had some very good years together (even though my wife won't admit it). I am not going to throw them out or try to purge them from my memory just because she decided she wants to be single again.

I actually didn't feel much on our anniversary, and I think I will hang on to photos and other memories of our wedding. It may be something I want to look back on with the kids at some point.

Hey schtoop,

A couple points....

One, that must be VERY difficult to keep up the surveillance thing. I guess if you need it for building your case, then I guess it makes sense. If the motivation is purely (or heck, even mostly) curiosity-driven, I'd give some serious thought to just leaving it alone. After all, at some point, it's just counter-productive to personal recovery.

Two, I understand your take on the photos. I guess I kinda lean towards Fred-O's opinion on the whole photo retention thing. They don't do much good for me right now, so not having them around works. You are being smart and at least recognizing that you may want to reference them for the kids down the road -- when you are in a better place emotionally.

Sounds like you had a very nice weekend with the kids. That's the important stuff.

TBC

I lived with my ex after divorce papers were filed too. I absolutely kept a close eye on him until we separated. I don't blame you one bit. I think it is completely normal and possibly even helpful to the divorce - although not fun at all. I kept my wedding pics also for the same reasons that you mentioned. I have them tucked away for a future date when the pain has subsided more. I may throw them away then. Who knows? Your weekend sounds great! Happy Birthday!

Thanks, stillstanding!

I don't really need to do any more surveillance, my state is a no-fault state so all the proof in the world of adultery doesn't amount to much in court. I make a much better case just by proving what a good father I am, how I am the primary care giver, and how much time she spends away from the kids with her partying and carousing.

I still check up on her out of habit, and to be sure she doesn't bring any of her filth around the kids or in my house. TBC is probably right, though, it would be better for me to just not know.

I am amazed at her brazeness, however.

The Leopard and I had no kids together, so there is no historical reason for me to keep them.

My daughter says she doesn't like the way she looked in the wedding photos, so that ends that.

The snooping is really counter productive to recovering however I am just as guilty. Most of mine though was because of head games she would play on me and snooping was the only way to find out the truth. She would always tell me one thing to keep my stringing along and tell them the marriage is horrible and she just wants out.

As painfull as it is at times it sadly is my only means for me to let it go.

As crazy as this sounds there are going to be times when you second guess yourself. Did I do enough, Maybe she wasn't that bad, maybe this, maybe that. So, the snooping is a source of reality and truth. My feeling is that it will help you stay on track, that you're doing the right thing. As sad as it is.
Of course you can curtail the recon ops any time, I'm just pointing out one of the positives.

You'd think she could put the party on hold for a little while; at least until one mediation session, sheesh.

BTW, are you trying to streamline the D process? It has worked for me to just get through it as quickly as possible; at the advice of my lawyer.

You're a good Father, Schtoop.

opt

I think that the truth that you find in snooping helps you know that the divorce is the right choice. The truth is what it is. I am glad that I snooped and had the truth - even though it was ugly. Otherwise, I would have only had the words of a liar. Without snooping, I would have wondered if I was doing the right thing. I may have regretted my choices. Without the snooping, nothing would have made any sense. My ex NEVER admitted anything - never ever! The last week that we lived together, I stopped snooping because I just didn't care anymore. You will get to the point that you just don't want to know anymore. You will get there.

Just when I thought things couldn't get more any more bazaar....

I checked up on this guy she was banging this past weekend. Guess what?

He is a registered sex offender in my state! Convicted in military court of forced sodomy.

Should I confront her about it? Should I be the one to tell her that she is banging a convicted rapist? I don't think she would bring this around the kids, but other's experience has shown you can't trust a wayward.

Or should I keep this info in my hip pocket for ammo in the divorce proceedings?

Thanks for the kind words, Opt. Yeah, we both want to get this over as soon as possible and we've been cooperating on getting all of our financial information together. We have a mediation date set for August 2, and I know she want nothing more than to come to an agreement at that time.

I would love the same, but I am not going to take a bad deal just to get it over with. I am looking for no less than 50% custody and I stay in our house. Anything less and I will take it to court.

Schtoop, I don't know what to say to you other than I am so sorry you're going through this. It's horrible enough when a spouse goes wayward, but yours seems to have vaulted the bar with plenty of room to spare. I know this sucks. I don't think I have any words of comfort for you, but know that I'm praying for you (and your kids).

This guy sounds dangerous. I'm sure you don't want the mother of your children getting hurt. I would alert her.
"I heard you were with so-and-so. Do you realize he is...., just an FYI"
This goes beyond ammo for a custody case; besides, you already have your info - she's used supremely bad judgment exposing herself and indirectly her family to some low-life convict.

And a FRIEND introduced her to this creep? With freinds like that who needs rattlesnakes hiding under their pillow?

OMG!!! I can't imagine that she did the background check and would still see this criminal. If it were me, I would mention the facts to WS and your lawyer. Do not let this person near your children. I would also hold out for the best deal or take it to court. I would do whatever necessary to protect the children from this predator FIRST.

I agree whole heartedly with ss2. You can't trust this person around your kids. I had issue with OM3 being convicted of DUI and driving my kids around. I don't see the bad side to telling your WW. Not only would I tell her but I would add a warning as well. Mean while I'd try to find out more about this conviction. Was it with a minor?

Everyone was right.

Last night after the kids went to bed I told my STXW that we needed to talk. I told her that I know we have decided to split and that she can do whatever she wants, but that I still worry about her.

Then I handed her a printout of the sexual offender information on her new boyfriend. She looked at it for a few seconds and replied with a stoic, "I didn't know".

Then she starts in with her crap like "What are you doing, stalking me?" I said no, not stalking, but staying aware of what's happening and protecting my boys.

I told her that this scares the hell out of me, for her safety and certainly for the safety of the children.

She again said something about "I didn't know".

I also said that she could show me a little respect and wait until things are official before running around all over town, but that's apparently not happening.

We ended with me once again demanding that she keep her liaisons out of the house and never, ever around the kids, to which she enthusiastically agreed.

There were a flurry of text messages and calls on the phone logs this morning to the "friend" who set them up. Wonder how those conversations went?

I also wonder if she will break things off with this slime, or is she so whacked out that she doesn't care he's a sex offender?

Schtoop - still with ya buddy. I haven't been on much to post, but I've caught up with your sitch.

There's no doubt you made the right choice to go with the D Plan. Your STBXW is out of control. You and the boys deserve better. I just hope you get total custody. She's dangerous, Schtoop.

Also, thanks for your support in my sitch. We're still doing well.

God bless,
Linus

Thanks for checking in, Linus!

Glad things are going well on your front and I'm certainly pulling for you guys. It's good to see the good guys win every once in a while.

Life has stabilized to some degree over here in bizarro land. My WW has been at home all week playing the perfect mom. No partying with friends, not much drinking, and she's actually getting up for work on time.

She has changed her passwords on her email and facebook accounts, and the cell phone is in her name so she changed the password to that account as well. In short, I have lost nearly all my intel. She now now keeps her cell phone glued to her at all times, along with her ipod touch that she uses to chat with. She doesn't so much as go to the bathroom without taking them with her.

However, I did manage to grab her cell last night and check a few messages. One interesting text to her friend talks about how she's quit taking the antidepressants that she's been on for years. Said she's tired of being "numb." (I've been telling her this for years.)

I also found a handwritten list of houses for sale in her purse, along with the printout of her sex offender boyfriend (that I gave her) folded up with her lawyer's card inside.

I'm thinking she went to her lawyer with this information and he told her she better get her sh@t together if she doesn't want to lose her kids. What I'm hoping is that with his advice she will capitulate in mediation to 50% custody, leaving the house, and paying me some degree of child support. If she won't agree to that (which is a generous deal from my standpoint), then I will take it to court and ask for an even great share of custody.

We are still in an uneasy truce, acting relatively normal around the kids, but separating in different rooms as soon as they go to bed.

Like I said, she's behaving on her best P's and Q's right now, but I'm going to be taking the kids to my mom's house on the coast for an extended July 4th weekend. I think I'm going to have a neighbor keep an eye on the house for any strange vehicles while we're gone.

Not much to update....

Still coexisting in the same house with WW and keeping up the facade for the kids.

On Saturday I took my oldest son to a cub scout outdoors day while she took the younger one to a birthday pool party for a girl his age at a mutual friends' house. Me and the older one stopped by after the scout thing and we all swam, drank beer, cooked out, and enjoyed the company for the rest of the day. It was like old times and a nice escape of sorts. I was able to coexist around the WW without stirring up any feelings of longing and only a twinge here and there of resentment/anger.

Since then we have been coexisting around the house, I kind of treat the WW as a roomate that you don't really care for, but can live around. We will talk about the logistics of day to day life, but I'm not interested in any deeper conversation than that. Last night she started to complain about work and about some health issues she's been having lately, but I seemed pretty disinterested and she dropped it.

I think she is starting to get a feel for what our post-divorce relationship will be like, can't tell if it is bothering her or not.

She did make a pretty big Freudian slip last night. We were discussion a week-long summer camp the kids are going to next month and how it coincides with a 4-day work trip I have to go on. I commented on how that works out well, and she replied "yeah, it's party time!" (with everyone out of the house).

Of course, I had to roll my eyes and responded with a gruff "Yeah, nice."

She backtracked quickly and said she was just joking and had to work the whole time.

I'm thankful that I have been able to detach from her so quickly (unless I'm just fooling myself). The decision to divorce is 100% irrevocable, so now I'm putting all the energy that was going into reconciliation now into the divorce process and my children. It's all business and I will treat the whole divorce process as such.

I cannot imagine going through it with lingering feelings for your WW or hopes for reconciliation. That could tear someone apart.

Are the kids buying it? My guess is they know more than they're letting on.

...

I suspect everyone (at least everyone who comes to MB) goes through a period like this. It's painful and frustrating, but I can't imagine anyone just "flipping a switch" and going from "in love" to "out of love."

Well, that is with the exception of the truly disordered -- "flipping" is very consistent with Cluster B personality disorders. It's one reason they're considered disordered...

I agree with Fred. Are you explaining everything to the kids or are they going to have to piece it all together months and years later? "Facade" sounds too much like dishonesty to me Schtoop; kids don't do well with that.

Also, not sure if you're "fooling yourself" or not, but we have a good habit of protecting ourselves emotionally; effectively but for the short term. I'm struggling with the apathy concept myself. I doubt if you're truly that apathetic: one week ago you told her yourself you were "worried" about her; and being at a cookout together without paying attention to her is not really apathy. Again, I'm no pro, but I would expect to yo-yo on that one some.


Did the room-mate thing an awful lot during my marriage. Way too much.

opt


PS. I meant to say, i think the apathy thing comes with time and decreased (or NO) contact (as in Plan B)

Here is the situation with the kids...

We have two boys, ages 9 and 6. After D-day I did not expose the affair to them, as much as I wanted to and was advised to by this board.

Ethical reasons:

I did an awful lot of reading and spoke to people I really trust and the overwhelming consensus was that it was wrong for one parent alone to give them this kind of news. No matter how fair or impartial I may have tried to be, they would only be getting my side of the story and it could be seen as trying to turn the kids against the mother. Then there was the issue of their ages and just what is appropriate for them to know.

Once we started going to a MC, it was also his opinion to keep things as normal as possible for the kids at home (provide we weren't openly hostile to each other, which we weren't) while we try to reconcile.

Once we made the decision to divorce, I again wanted to let the boys know what was going on. Again, the overwhelming majority of literature and common sense dictates that the two parents decide before hand what will be told, then do it together as a united front. The MC stressed that uncertainty about the future is what would be the most upsetting to the kids. He said it wasn't a good idea to tell them we are splitting until the new living arrangements are worked out and we can tell them more precisely how their lives will change. He also stressed that the kids may ask "why", but they are just looking for some way to use it against us to argue against the change. What they really need to hear is "what will happen to me." Since neither of us will move out until the settlement is decided, we are stuck waiting to tell the children. How much we tell them will be decided together, and age appropriateness and parenting plan will dictate just how much is disclosed.

Legal considerations:

In my state, there is a list of factors for evaluating a parents fitness for custody. The very first item on the list reads:


In other words, if I were to have gone to the kids alone and told them how bad their mother was, it would have definitely been used against me in custody proceedings.

Aside... there are several things that MB's advocate that will NOT help you once you decide to divorce. Another is moving out to achieve a plan B.

As to what they know, I'm sure the 9 year old knows that things aren't great and has even overheard a snip or two of our conversations. He deserves to know what's going on and I can't wait until we can tell him, even though it's going to be one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life.

Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving. I have broken the record for "worst day of my life" about five or six times now in the last 6 months.

Just checking in with a few new developments...

We have mandatory mediation scheduled on August 2 and the WW is acting like everything is going to be settled on that date.

She know I will accept nothing less than 50% custody and staying in our house. In my state, there is no such thing as "primary" custody, but me keeping the house and school zone priority is an actual advantage.

I found text messages and lists where she has been looking at some houses for sale in the area, then she has made a comment or two that leads me to believe she is going to capitulate on the 50% custody and the house.

We're still living together in De' tante (Spelling?), but she has curbed her drinking and partying with friends. I assume this is at her lawyer's advice.

She did drop a bomb on me that she had scheduled a family counselor for August 8, to help the kids work through the separation. I said something about her being so optimistic it would be over after mediation, but she didn't respond. Anyway, I told her I would like to meet this counselor first and that maybe she could give some good advice on how we tell the children. The WW reluctantly agreed to this.

I dropped both boys off at our neighbors church this morning for bus ride to a summer camp they will spend all week at. The neighbor's kids go along to this camp and they all have a lot of fun, so it will be good for the boys.

Me, I'm off to Lake Tahoe this morning for a three-day work conference. It will be good to get away and not have to endure the WW in the same house without the kids. We are fine there together when the kids are around to interact with, but it would be very awkward being just the two of us there.

I am having our neighbor watch the driveway for any strange cars or visitors. I will blow a gasket if she brings her filth into my house!

Hey schtoop,

Best of luck getting a deal that works for you....

The word is actually 'detente', but there are probably higher priorities than spelling at the moment.......

Do you own due-diligence regarding your assets and liabilities -- more than just the house and custody. Know what you want to keep, know what you can do without, and know what you might like to trade with her.....

You're going into a phase with a different mindset, so just be cognizant of that.....

You sound pretty good....

TBC

You told her that bringing her affair partners into your home was unacceptable, right?


She wants to spin her story and make adultery seem like no big deal, just an acceptable way to deal with her inability to participate in a legitimate relationship fairly and equally. To bring in a counsellor who is on board with this twisted sick thinking (and many are), will legitimize her position. It will also destroy your childrens' sense of right and wrong and make them potential cheaters in their relationships.
---sorry if I'm not clear or if I'm missing something. I'm very tired but I'm also very upset. You know how I am about ICs. And I know what your WW is up to: absolutely no good. She's screened this guy and she knows what she's getting. I am very concerned for your kids on this one Schtoop. Very concerned.

opt

Schtoop, I double-ditto opt's concern. An active wayward independently seeking counseling is up to no good. There is absolutely NO CHANCE she's looking for anything but some form of acceptance and reinforcement for her abhorrent behavior. Or worse.

I agree. I don't think a "family" counselor is appropriate during divorce proceedings. She could also use it against you in court. I would steer clear. I would not agree to any counselling at this point.

OK, here's the deal.

This counselor was recommended by our old MC. At my request, my wife scheduled another meeting with just the two of us. The purpose is to give us some guidance on what and how to tell the kids and how to help them to adjust afterwards.

With 50/50 custody being the (very) likely outcome, it is in the BEST INTEREST of the children for us to work together as effectively as possible, both during and after the divorce. The professional counselor might just have some education and experience on guiding the children through this. I know that I don't.

Since we are 100% splitting now, I could give a rat's rear about her affair anymore.

I also don't care about if what I am doing is MB's or not, and I don't care about the bias against other counselors that I see on these boards. There are a ton of professional, competent counselors out there that can and do help with family problems.

I will be careful in what I say, but demonstrating the ability and inclination to work WITH the wife during and after the divorce process can only work in my favor in court.

Schtoop, I know you'll use good judgement. And I realize you want to be careful what you say, and believe me I understand what's at stake have just been through it.

To be more specific about my concern, it is this:
Your WW is most likely going to want to glaze over the whole adultery part of this, so as not to take any blame or responsibility for the current situation. If your IC/MC/counselor is like most, he/she will also take this approach with the philosophy that it's best not to damage the mother/child relationship. They will point to the very close association kids have with their parents regarding taking on their feelings of guilt and responsibility (i.e. if Mommy's bad, then I must be bad too, because I'm part of her).

Here's the rub: there are tactful, age appropriate, and responsible ways to teach kids that adultery (and other things) are wrong. Sometimes parents are wrong. Teaching them to glaze over mistakes makes it MORE wrong, not less. But when a child has three adults telling them "mommy and daddy just couldn't get along anymore, that's why they're getting divorced" you leave them very confused about that OTHER part (where mommy had a boyfriend and was staying out all night). They're left confused about if that part had anything to do with it. Confusing lines between right and wrong is never a good thing for a child.

I also believe that purposefully neglecting to address important aspects of a situation teaches them dishonesty. They pick up that as long as we don't talk about it, it's okay, or it didn't happen, or nobody will get hurt. They learn to lie by omission.


If you can work out that piece between you and your children, I personally feel you'll be much better off. The rest of what your counsellor (and WW) are likely to teach the kids is worthwhile: it wasn't their fault, they did nothing wrong, it's okay to express their feelings, it's okay to be sad about the divorce, it's VERY okay to love mommy and daddy very much even though they might be sad/angry/upset, mom and dad love them very very much no matter what, they'll always be protected and safe through all of this, they can still see all the grandmas and grampas and cousins, they'll still see both mom and dad a lot, they'll still have all the things they need, and most important: it wasn't their fault.

I'm really glad to hear the issue of the affair is not bothering you anymore - sounds like you're moving on and that's a very good thing, schtoop.

I hope you get 50/50. That's what I have and it's working out very well. I've heard it can be a bad deal as no one parent has a final say on anything (like moving to a school district, etc) and forces you to really work things out with the ex, even down the road when they may turn crazy or get involved with someone who wants certain things. I didn't know any of that before I made my deal, so I'm pointing it out to you just in case. you might want to try for 51/49.

Opt

Hey Opt,

Thanks for chiming in. I had a pretty detailed reply typed up, but it got lost in the ether with a bad wireless connection at the airport yesterday.

Bottom line, I'm going to do a lot of reading on the subject (have started already) and go in with an open mind to what the counselor may say, and also make the very arguments you have here on why the children should be told. After that, we will make a decision, together.

I have read arguments on both sides about how much to tell the children when infidelity is involved. Where there is agreement, however, is in not placing the "blame" for the divorce on any one parent. So it really is a tight line to walk. If it turns out that not telling the kids is the right thing to do, I'm OK with that. And, I would never do it just for retribution or my pound of flesh.

How and what to tell the kids has a lot to do with how much of the OW/OM they've been exposed to. Considering that, you may be able to use that to influence your WW to keep the kids clear of OM and out of his life for at least a year. Otherwise, the discussions with the children may need to acknowledge and include the affair to some degree.

I would have done anything to keep my kids away from the OW. Instead, he moved them in with her immediately and set up his "replacement family" in another town. As a result, my counselor advised me to tell the children that daddy broke the rules of being married, so we can't stay married any more. It worked for them considering their age.

Your WW may not want to be considered that responsible in her children's eyes. So you might be able to use that sentiment to keep OM away from kids.

Great point, fellspointmom.

No, to this point she has not mixed the kids with (any of) the OM at all. Other than her being away from the house a bunch of evenings, their day to day life hasn't been influenced much at all by her affair. That is the only reason I would consider not telling them all the details.

You do have a great point about using it for leverage to keep the OM away from the kids.

From everything I have gathered and from conversations with WW, the relationship with OM is not that deep. She says they are not "in love" and don't say ILY. Also, from my one conversation with him and from contact patterns, I believe she is chasing after him more than he is reciprocating. Throw in recent tryst with other OM, it doesn't point to her shacking up with him as soon as she moves out, which is certainly desirable from protecting the kids standpoint.

I even asked her point blank a little bit ago if she was going to resume things with OM#1 now that we are splitting, or is she just going to play the field. Her response was that she needs to "find myself first", whatever that means.

I hope it means that she carries on in private when I have the kids, and leaves it alone when she has them. If by not telling the kids I can leverage that situation, it might be a good plan.

That's right schtoop. You have good info from FPM and it sounds like you have the right approach to protect your kids without damaging them or their relationship with their mother, even if she is wrong as he77 (she's still their mom).

If the exposure is minimal, then down the road (and I forget your kids ages, sorry), might be okay to give the the "real" story. Like when they start getting into serious LTR's (or before).

I really feel that us BS's (and especially us FWS/BS's like me ) have a huge responsibility to do everything we can to stop the perpetuation of infidelity in the next generation. My STBXww's father was a notorious cheater and is now engaged to a woman he rekindled with while his wife at the time was dying of lung disease. My grandfather was a philanderer and I often think stories of that influenced me when I was wayward.

good luck schtoop.

opt

About time for a weekly update....

We are still coexisting in the house just waiting for our mediation day on August 2.

I have been keeping what I call "radio silence" this whole time, being cordial around the WW without discussing any specifics of the divorce proceedings or plans.

That all changed on Saturday, as we were home alone with the kids at a summer camp. She started the conversation wanting to know what we could agree on ourselves before hand so that mediation could go quickly and smoothly, and I kind of got sucked into the conversation.

Turns out to be a pretty good thing from my end. It looks like we are going to agree on 50/50 legal and physical custody. She also agreed to let me buy her out of the house and to move out as soon as an agreement is reached. She justified it by saying she has no emotional attachment to this house and that the kids would be just fine and excited about finding a new house. I didn't go into my reasons for wanting to stay, but needless to say they need the stability of staying in the only house they've ever known, even if it is only half the time. And, I want to be the one who provides that stability. This also means that my residence establishes school zones.

I also like how she justified ripping the family apart with the "they will be just fine" comment, but I bit my tongue and didn't take the bait there.

Other than those two major concessions, the rest of the process of dividing assets and debts is pretty cut and dried at 50/50 split. She hasn't said anything about this yet, but she will also have to pay me a modest amount of child support as she makes a good bit more money than I do.

The WW is still very wayward and it looks like she is back pursuing OM #1 hard. She spent some time with him while I had the boys away on the 4th of July weekend and on other occasions since then. She denied it when I asked if she was "hot and heavy" with him now and said she's not looking for a serious relationship with anybody.

I then asked her if the boys had ever been exposed to him, which she vehemently denied. She says that she is very serious about keeping her "business" away from the boys unless a relationship was to really progress somewhere down the line. I got her to agree to have the courtesy to tell me before she ever introduces the boys to a new man, and that I would return the same consideration if I ever did. She can do and see who she wants, but bringing it into the boys' life is something totally different. At least tell me first so I don't have to hear about some other man from the kids.

There were some other points of the division of property that we did not agree on, but I won't go into that here and think they can be worked out.

The whole long conversation did get me worked up and I was keyed up most of the next two days. I don't know if it is because the finality of divorce is almost upon me and this conversation hammered that home (maybe)? or did the conversation stir up my feelings of resentment, betrayal, and abandoment (without a doubt)? Or is it just the uncertainty of the future? Probably all of that and more is still festering under the surface.

At any rate, it's looking more and more like it will all be over soon. Then I get follow Optimism's road, trying to set boundaries and establish a cooperative, yet distant relationship with the STBXW as we "co-parent" our children. The thought makes me want to barf just typing it.

Schtoop, this sounds just like my deal. So far so good, although you've already heard the advantage of trying to get 51/49. I'm banking on being able to come to some agreement with the ex long-term, I guess we'll see. I didn't know the 50/50 could be a problem when I got on this train. The last part about school zones is really important for down the road. If you can get that, then good going.

Ask for more than you want in at least a few cases, and let the mediating lawyer "put you in your place" a couple times. She'll feel like she's getting something. Nothing wrong with a little strategy.

You kids will be fine, as long as you continue to make them a priority in your life.

Let me know how this goes. I could use all the pointers I can get!

opt

Those boundaries become even more important once she moves out of the house. They will help establish a basis long term. The first one I had to set that was really hard was he wasn't allowed in the house period. I wavered on that at first and it caused a lot of problems.

Make them clear and business like. A lot of stuff is spelled out in the parenting plan, such as drop off and pick up times and by whom. Stick to these like glue.
These will also include NOT communicating through the kids, talk only about kid related stuff nothing else. When you drop or she picks up no coming in the house, she can wait at the door. This will help keep you sane.

Worthy

Wow, those are good. I have not established these very well and I can attest to the discomfort one gets without these boundaries. Schtoop, you're better off just making it clear from the get-go how things are going to be. I have trouble with the boundaries (I hate to hurt her feelings even if she is spawn of the devil), so I have resorted to "in order for me to recover" and "I'm trying to move on."

I hope you do this better than I did.

opt

Um, I find this statement so sad. You must be a great guy cause she certainly didn't spare your feelings or your children by having the affair. Like you said just say, I have to set these boundaries in order to recover and move on, and she needs to respect that period!

Worthy

Hey Schtoop I never got around to addressing this comment above before I left for the weekend. The finality of the divorce is definitely not upon you. Each step is just that, a step. You have to go through the mediation process, that could be 4-6 weeks. Then the lawyer you had for that files and you wait to get a court date (3-6 weeks). She has to move out (who knows when....), but that's another step in the process. Then you'll have your court hearing (maybe a couple months from the filing). Then the judge will give a 90 to 120 day waiting period for it all to be final.

This was my timeline and it seemed like an eternity (and I still have 53 days left (well...52 days and 4.5 hours ). You'll have all kinds of different outlooks through all of it, so expect to be "keyed up" for a few days about whatever, then depressed about something for a few days, then lonely for a week or so, then confused. It's all good, kid, all good. Just keep coming back to the kids and you'll have your priorities right there.

This is how it's been for me so far. I hope that gives you some perspective. Of course this is all assuming similar legal circumstances and a lot of other things, but it gives you a general sense.

Opt

Opt,

You're right about it not being "over" for a long time. Even after all the legal maneuverings are done, I will still have to deal with her on a nearly daily basis as we work out our "co-parenting" (I hate that term and the whole idea of it).

Another great weekend with the boys. We went to the coast again to visit my mother and my oldest sister's family. Spent saturday towing the kids behind the boat on inner tubes and kneeboard, then spent Sunday at the beach playing in the surf and snorkeling. The boys love to get together with their cousins and it's nice for me to be around family now.

WW did her quarterly kid's show at church (first one we've missed) on Saturday, but she didn't have a problem with the boys not being there. I notice from the state of the house, bedroom, and bathroom that she had not stayed there this weekend. I also checked her text messages and she couldn't wait to finish the church show so that she could go out to the bar with OM and her enabling friends. So nice, one big happy group (gag).

At least she didn't bring it into my house.

schtoop that's just about what I did this w/e! Did you try the tubes? I had a great time doing that.

It's like we're living in a parallel universe, lol.

opt


I know, it really bothers you because you're still married! Unbelievable how the wayward is able to redefine concepts (like a little thing called "marriage") to suit their slimy behavior. I wish I could tell you how to deal with this but I just don't know. Just don't lower your own standards based on that insanity - I've been tempted. It would be easy to compare bad behavior with really bad behavior and come out smelling like a rose, but your ideals are higher.

[quote=optimism]Just don't lower your own standards based on that insanity - I've been tempted./quote]
Sorry for the t/j, but I hope this "speaks" to you as well.

My divorce has been final for almost seven weeks. This evening I spied a woman I've been attracted to for months. I've never spoken with her other than a passing greeting, since I was still married at the time.

Tonight, being a single man again, I had no such self-imposed limitations. I've wanted to ask her out.

But I didn't. The thought crossed my mind: "You've only been divorced a month and a half. You shouldn't rush into things."

Part of this is my own lack of confidence (I have never been a "dater") but part of it is recognition that I still have a ways to go before I am healthy enough to date a woman without me bringing a lot of baggage along.

With all the uncertainty in my life today -- and in the world in general, I've decided to not be in a hurry anymore. About ANYTHING.

You at least spoke to her, right?

You can't go from passing greeting to "Will you have dinner with me" with most women. A little flirting and information gathering is in order and acceptable.

And, here's the thing.... No one is ever completely baggage free. We have scars. It's okay.

The other thing I found when I started dating after my divorce is that some issues can not be addressed until you are in a relationship. Working through certain triggers seems to only happen when you are in a relationship.If you face these triggers from a position of strength you can take a breather and analyze whether it is the past or the present your body reacted to. You can respond approriately rather than inflicting the problems of the past on the present.

So by all means take your time, just don't be looking for perfection in yourself before you take the leap.

I've got a question about this "dating" thing.

You all seem to talk about it from the standpoint of looking for another serious relationship.

I may be ready to start interacting with the opposite sex fairly soon, but it's only going to be casual for the forseeable future. Is that OK, as long as I am up front from the beginning?

I totally think it's okay. After all, even if you were looking for a serious relationship, you have to start off slowly.

Just be honest, AND be cautious. Sometimes women will say they are okay with casual dating even though they are in search of a serious committment.

I personally cannot have more kids. So, when I've used online dating, I elminate anyone who says they want kids. It's not fair to the man to waste his time.

Yeah, uh, let's back up a step. Since Schtoop and I are now living in parallel universes, I have to chime in.

I've been advised against dating at this juncture (MUCH to my chagrin). But, now that I'm over my eagerness I think I understand a few of the points about why even "casual" dating described above might not be such a good idea. See if I have this right:

*Having just been through a very traumatic experience (being on the receiving end of betrayal), your defenses are understandably low. You are vulnerable. The tendency might be to be blind to any flaws and latch on; essentially tricking yourself into thinking something crazy like you just met your soulmate.

*I believe you come into the situation (a casual dinner/coffee "date"), with a definite perspective (and expectation) of how two opposite-sex people act and react to each other; the model is that of husband and wife. I feel like it probably takes a while for that to get out of your system. Dating with that picture in your head (& heart) could easily lead to a misrepresentation of what you're trying to accomplish (or should be trying to accomplish), which is essentially nothing except for some interesting conversation perhaps.

*For me, I really see the importance of keeping my kids at the top of my list right now. Since I have a new appreciation for total honesty (imagine that...), I would never be able to shade the truth about what I was doing if they asked (of course without sharing personal details). I believe my daughter would be crushed if she thought there was someone more important than her right now. This is all too new to them and they're emotional safety is nothing I'm ready to mess around with, even with the most mundane of intentions. ---I have to thank Vibrissa for pointing their vulnerability out to me (schtoop - read her posts on about pg 11/12 of my D thread).

*I don't even want to get into the concept of still being officially married. That seems to be a point not worth debating. For me it means more than I thought it would. I'm lucky I only have to wait 50 more days and 3 hours.

*I really liked one poster (sorry, can't remember who): something to the effect that once you establish yourself as your true self (which takes some time of being ALONE), you attract a whole different type of woman. I NEVER did that before, and I wound up marrying...well, let's just say the wrong girl.

Might not be what you wanna hear, schtoop. But I am sincerely grateful (at least today) for the folks that jumped in and pulled me back from dating too early. I really long for that high you get from all the good things a woman brings to the table, but I have to expect it will be just as sweet, if not moreso, when it's really the right time.

~opt

Let me clarify. I thought the question was whether or not casual dating was okay as opposed to looking for a relationship, not whether it was okay for Schoop personally.

I think people should have been living on their own for close to a year or so before dating. I think that time alone is more important to healthy dating than even a divorce degree because then you know who you are. That's important.

And I'd like to point out that you need to be ready to handle rejection... even when casually dating. Some people aren't going to want to go out with you. Some will go out once and then say no thanks.

But if everything is now in place, sure, date casually, not seriously if that's waht you want.

Don't worry, Opt, I read all the advice you were given and it makes sense.

And, I am no where near ready to date again right now, just trying to visualize what my single life will look like going forward.

Not a good day yesterday.

I had to drive 3 hours for a meeting in another town and then 3 hours back after it was done. When I got home the kids were cranky, I was cranky, and the WW was withdrawn as usual. I was really restless and felt anxious for some reason.

Part of it is the stress of everything coming together now. I know things move pretty quickly in my state, but it's been two months since we decided to divorce and I've spent a ton of time and energy assembling financial information, documenting everything I can think of showing me as a good parent (and her shortcomings as well), planning the division of property, planning my future finances.

Now things are quickly coming to a crescendo. This morning the WW and I meet with a counselor she picked out for the boys to see once we tell them of our split. In theory it is probably a good idea for them to have someone to help them through this, but I am wary that she set it up. Then Friday I meet with my lawyer to plan our mediation strategy, followed by the actual mediation on Monday.

My WW seems to think everything will be settled at mediation, but I am only cautiously optimistic. It is still a sobering thought that our whole world and lifestyle is going to change in the matter of just a few days, maybe that stress has me a little on edge. And, the kids are probably feeling it, too.

I'm sure it's needed to finally get things out in the open for them, but it is also the most painful thing I'm ever going to have to do.

I feel that I am stronger than ever and have a good plan for moving my life forward, but I guess bad days are still going to rear themselves every now and then. Been working and making some strides detaching from WW, but I know its a process, not a switch I can just turn on or off.

Ah, ha! Now, I get the picture.

My best friend made a great recommendation to me years ago. She said, don't start dating, but go where there are men. Go to the gym. Talk to men. Practice your social skills.

It was excellent advice, and I took it.

so, while I recommend you don't date until you've been alone for a year, that doesn't mean you can't talk to or smile at nice women.

The one thing you really need to avoid is the rebound. Rebound relationships feel really good because suddenly emtoinal needs are being met in ways they haven't been in a long time. But, they often have little to do with reality. Just read some of the stories over on the After Divorce board.

Also, the desire to date will ebb and flow. That's normal.

Attaboy. Sorry if I took you too literal. Well, I had fun writing my expose on not dating. Now I just hope I can follow my own advice, lol. Gg's right though, with this schedule the next Little Miss Wonderful is not going to find herself on the top of the priority list anytime soon no matter how hard I try; casual dating with full disclosure and honesty and constantly feathering the brakes is clearly the place to start.


See now I like this (genders reversed of course). Any ideas? A dad can only take their 9 yo daughter to so many cheerleading competitions...
[Do nail salons take volunteers?]

opt

This is definitely a hard part of the whole thing, schtoop. Just hold on tight and make the right choices as the opportunities present themselves. You have your lawyer, and you're grounded. WW, not so much. She is thinking short-sightedly right now and just wants it all over so she can go chase the dream; use that to your advantage (of course with the kids well-being top-most in your mind). I got away with a couple of quick "payoff" type deals that were way to my advantage in the long run, b/c she was just so intent with washing her hands of the whole thing - keep your eyes peeled for things like that.

The kids are definitely feeling it. Do your best with them. This is really a hard time filled with mammoth uncertainty for them (the worst thing for a kid). You'll have your opportunities to continue to show your integrity as you go along, so don't worry, just go day by day with them for now.

Right. Stay in the game for the legal and official stuff first. Focus, focus, focus. After that you can deal with the emotional crap. You'll have plenty of time to roll that stuff over in your mind.

good luck with everything, schtoop.

opt

I showed a house to a newly divorced dad the other night. His marriage blew up over his WW's adultery...and he was able to get half time with his two small children (boy 5, girl 6). He was telling me about painting his little girl's finger nails and even gluing on the little butterflies too...and how she showed a waitress her hand and said, 'see what my daddy did?'....LOL...and the little girl wants her daddy to ask this waitress out but he said, 'dd, she looks pretty young, I dont even know if she is 18!' So the little girl asked the waitress, 'how old are you?' LOL.....I thought it was a really cute story, but really wanted to point out how little girls can be chick magnets especially when their dads are involved fathers....such as the Betrayed Men on this board.

I'd also like to chime in about dating too early....I did it...and wow am I sorry. I got involved with a man who I had trouble breaking free of (and yes I am seeing a pattern). I hope I know next time if I'm really ready.

Well, it's done!

Everything was settled in mediation yesterday and things went pretty much as planned.

We agreed on 50/50 split custody, physical and legal.

I get the priveledge of buying her out of the house and I get to keep my truck, boat, all my belongings.

She has to pay me a few hundred dollars each month in child support.

The buyout was a few thousand dollars more than I anticipated, but a few thousand less than she was expecting so I guess that makes it pretty fair.

The whole process took all day long was pretty exhausting. I don't know how negotiators can do this kind of thing day in and day out.

She's supposed to move out this weekend, but I'm afraid the process of moving out is going to be long and excruciating.

All that's left now is to file the agreement in court and go before a judge, which should be coming up in a few weeks.

Wow, she must really have wanted her freedom. I think deep down, she must have some remorse/regret for the way she's treated you. She won't show it to you, but she doesn't show the entitlement of most wayward wives who think they deserve everything in the divorce because they are women. Now she's free to pursue her "happiness" or so she thinks. I bet she comes sniffing back around once she realizes the grass isn't greener and you appear to move on with someone else. I know you don't care about saving your marriage, but it's best if you just mostly plan B her anyway for your own sanity.

Sorry, WW isn't wired that way, even before she was wayward. Once she has her mind set, she is stubborn and vindictive as the day is long. Even if she might have some pangs of regret deep down, she will just rationalize or justify them to herself and never ever let me see even a hint of it. No, there will be no more "sniffing around".

She did remark when we got home last night that she had been "nice" by letting me stay in the house. I just had to roll my eyes at that one after all she has put us throuh.

Hi schtoop,

I wondered were you had gone. I didn't notice that you moved from the SAA forum to here. I am in the same boat. What's your feeling now after the process is all done?

-- ElCamino72

Sounds like my deal. More parallel universe stuff for us I guess.
Having been down this road to some extent I can offer a couple tips.
You'll want to be around when she moves (obviously) to see what she takes. You might be surprised at what she leaves. Don't chase her down with it, just plan to sell it - it's your house now, so it's your stuff. Hire movers for your own emotional well being. Consider anything of hers bad energy and try not to touch it. I had someone do an "energy clearing" once she left. Kinda corny, but it actually made me feel better. Be strong and cooperative, cry once she's gone. It's the end of an era and there's no shame in grieving it.

Did the house property deal actually go through with exchange of titles and all that? If not, refinancing could take a while - it's a pain and could give her time to reconsider. This is a sprint, so keep up the pace like you've been doing. You're taking advantage of her waywardness and desire to get out so she can go chase her sleazy dream. She may have a little guilt buried deep in there somewhere too, take advantage of that as well.

I don't know if these are good "strategies" (and probably not MBish) - they are kinda how I proceeded through it all and so far I feel as good as one can in this ugly nasty situation of D (war, essentially - one she started by dropping a nuke in the living room). I was probably nicer than I had to be through the beginning stages but now I'm really trying to detach and rediscover myself. You can be nice if you think it will be advantageous for you, but I really think she just wants to start eating that nice green grass on the other side of the fence, so you probably can't screw it up no matter what you do.

The filing and court stuff takes a long time as I've pointed out before. A "few weeks" will be the very least, I bet. But, the light is there at the end of the tunnel. You've endured enough and you'll soon be able to breathe again. Your personal recovery took a big step forward this morning schtoop. If you're like me in your parallel universe, you have a ways to go. If I can walk this path, you certainly can.

~optimism

PS: you'll have the kids more than 50% of the time. Single parenting is so hard, but also very gratifying. You get a better sense that your true influence is prominent.

Opt, we really have been in a parallel universe. The only difference is that my WW's affair(s) are definitely physical.

To follow up on some of your points, I will definitely be around when she moves. In our agreement, there is a short list of furniture items, appliances (large screen TV), and kitchen stuff that she wanted. Otherwise, the wording says I get EVERYTHING else (don't know how her lawyer could have approved that). So, it will be up to me to enforce the "everything else".

Will start on the refinancing as soon as possible. But, there is no reconsidering. The way my lawyer explained it, the signed agreement is now binding unless there was a significant change of circumstances, in which case a motion would have to be filed before a judge. Buyer's remorse is NOT a valid legal reason. I was also led to believe that I would go before a judge in the next couple of weeks and then it would be DONE. Things move pretty quickly in my state and county.

I did take a jab at her out of spite last night that really pissed her off. I've got to do a better job of avoiding these actions, things are done now and we have to get along for the sake of the kids. I need to think "business", and not let any need for retribution color my actions.

ElCamino -

I've been following your thread and hate it that you've come to this. You were a big help to me when I was trying to recover. However, everyone has their limit and no one can fault you for recognizing that you have reached yours.

I will checking on your new thread on the D board and help with what advice I can. I have had a crash course in the divorce process and learned some lessons.

I can see what opt says about the emotional part with the moving. When I was moving I had to throw away a lot of crap related to my previous company and at the same time that STBX was in an IB rampage. The other tough one was dismantling what was left of my salt water aquarium. I couldn't get to do it myself so I had people come in and take away over $15K in gear and live stock.

I might need to pick your brain in the D process so please stay tuned.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

This is all good. All good.
My lawyer was VERY cautious and Very conservative. She made me feel like ww could derail the whole thing on a whim if she woke up with a headache one day. I don't know if it was this State or her general approach - I've noticed she knows the laws extremely well and seems like the type to stay up at night thinking of ways things could get screwed up.

Sounds like your situation is much tighter and that's comforting for you. You can move on now with confidence.


This is where I'm at. Just how well we have to "get along?" I've nary spoken to ww since July 4th D-day anniversary. So far the kids have barely noticed, they honestly seem the same now as before when I was being too friendly for my own good (not really detaching emotionally, a process I've come to see as important in the healing).

I'll be interested to hear your experience with this. I think ultimately the kids really need to know they're safe and will get most of the things they need. Whether mom and dad hold hands and provide, or just provide I think matters little to their blessed little hearts. I expect going to the extreme would be unhealthy (downright hatred or total avoidance, etc. but I have no intention of going to that level; communication is essential even if just for logistic reasons.)

And you're right. Retribution is not necessary. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting my stbxww know exactly why I'm feeling the resentment I feel (and why I have no intention of holding hands and singing Kumbaya). Allowing the consequences of her actions to hit her smack in the face will give her something to think about; that doesn't bother me one bit.

Besides, a poster here told me a long time ago "living well is the best revenge."

Live well shtoop.

opt
Keep moving forward Schtoop.

Thanks for the perspective, Opt.

Final appearance before the judge is scheduled for Aug. 18. Things do move quickly around here.

On an unrelated note, I was sitting in a waiting room at the pediatrician's office with my six year old son the day after our mediation agreement. There was a very attractive single mom (didn't see a ring) there with her one year old son. There was no flirting or anything like that, but there was eye contact a time or two as her kid played around the room. I figured it was as good a time as any and I slipped my wedding ring off my finger for the first time in 16 years and put it in my pocket, never to be put back on.

I don't know why, but your story absolutely made my day, schtoop. I guess it's the way us guys tend to be ceremonious in our own ways.

Onward my good man, onward.

Opt

Bravo, schtoop! I echo opt's sentiments.

Y'know, I have a funny thing about rings. The day after I graduated from high school (which was NOT the highlight of my life), I took off my high school ring, put it on the dresser top -- and never saw it again.

A few days after my xWW nuked our marriage, I took off my wedding ring and put it in my night stand drawer. It too, has disappeared (I have emptied the drawer completely).

Perhaps there's a message there for me. I'll be darned if I can tell what it is, though.

Well, things continued to move forward this weekend at the Schtoop household.

WW had stayed in the house all through the week with no movement at all on moving out.

We finally figured a time and way of telling the boys about our divorce, and that was Friday evening. We turned off the TV and told them we had something serious to tell them. First we asked them if they had noticed us acting different or not getting along, to which they said no. Then we came out and told them that we haven't been (getting along) and that we are getting a divorce.

There really wasn't much reaction, my oldest boy's first question was who would be moving out. WW told them she was and we both laid out how we would split time with them, and that they would still be at this house half the time.

Of course we gave them the standard talk about how none of this was their fault and how mom and dad would both continue to love them more than ever.

I asked our oldest why he didn't seem surprised, and he said that he wasn't. He had overheard some of our discussions when we thought he was asleep and had a good idea what was going on. He said he had even talked to his best friend about it. We didn't get into the "why's" of the divorce, but he said he knew that I had a problem with the WW "going out with her friends" so much.

The youngest kind of followed his brother's lead and said that he was sad, but was OK with everything.

The whole conversation took about 5-10 minutes and we knew to leave it alone when they asked "are we done, can we watch TV now?" My kids continue to amaze me with their strength and maturity, they really are handling this much better than I could have ever imagined. They met with a family counselor this morning and he agreed they seem to be doing quite well.

The other drama of the weekend was getting the WW to make some movement towards moving out. After the kids went to bed Friday evening, she got dressed and announced she was going to a "friend's" house to watch TV.

It was then that I had enough of her entitled, cheating azz. She's been freeloading in the house the last three weeks (hasn't contributed to the bills), and now she was going to carry on with the OM and come back to sleep in my house? I asked her if she was going to move out this weekend, like she had told me she was. She gave me some sob story about wanting to see how the boys would react first. I pointed out how she has not been contributing and that she could no longer disrespect me under my roof.

She stormed to the bedroom and grabbed enough stuff for overnight and stormed out of the house. Saturday she moved some clothes and her toiletries out has hasn't spent the night since.

She is moving into a three-bedroom house with her single friend who just lost a roommate. She (and the kids during her turns) will be staying there a few months until the WW eventually finds a house of her own. I know, not the most desireable living arrangement for the kids, but there's not a lot I can do to get in the way and the WW gives me every assurance that their welfare will be protected.

She took the kids over there Saturday afternoon and they even spent the night on Sunday. They discovered a PS2 game system over there, so right now they think it's a big party. I really am glad that I can provide the stability of their only known HOME.

Now I have to prepare for the battle of her moving all her crap out at a trickle pace. I can't wait to arrange the house the way I want it, without her stuff taking up all the room.

One last thing, my oldest asked us if we still loved each other. I shook my head and told him no, not the way a man and wife should. He then asked if we would still be friends. I told him that we would get along with each other and do our very best (working together) to make sure that they were cared for to the best of our abilities.

He is an amazing kid.

schtoop,
So how goes it?
She moved out. Is she still out? Have you boxed up her stuff?
Are you arranging things like you want?
Did you paint your bedroom, lol?



I know you're expecting them to have various reactions as time goes on. DD is getting really funny about me moving things around in the house; 4 months of living seperately and she has asked me to put the pictures back "exactly where they were" (I took them all down b/c I intend to pain the hallway). I know she's thinking about how life used to be.



Exactly right. And not just their home, but their lives. Mom's living with a bunch of single folks. By nature, there's no stability there. You're providing what they need in this crucial time. Good for you and good for them that they have you.



LOL. How dare you challenge her newfound happiness?! (something like that, right?)



I think you did well here. It's wrong to lie. And let's face it: she's not doing much to make you love her. In fact you would be some kind of idiot masochist to love someone that treated you like she has. Am I right? I think it's perfectly good to teach a kid you do NOT love someone who mistreats you. That borders on unconditional love. MB says unconditional love is a myth and doesn't work (got that from Steve himself).

My stbx's condo is on a one-way street. Me and DS were waiting for them to show so I could drop him off and whatnot. So here she comes barreling down the wrong way and pulls into the driveway (about 40 feet). I started to tell my son I was thinking of doing the same thing earlier today when I went to pick him up for baseball. I said the reason I didn't was because it gets easier and easier each time, and eventually you do it and someone's crossing and not expecting you or worse a cop is coming down the other way. He agreed and said he feels the same way and sited some example I can't remember from his own life. The he said:
It's just like how affairs happen.

Who says they don't learn from their parent's mistakes??

opt

Since you asked, I thought I'd check in.

WW has moved out in the sense that she is no longer staying there. She has taken most of her clothes and her makeup and toiletries, but not much else. The boys do stay over at her new house on the days she has them, she has set them up with beds and they have a PS2 over there. Soon I'm going to have to pressure her for schedule to get all her crap out of the house. I would like to do some rearranging, but I'm not going to spend my time boxing her stuff up.

Last week and the upcoming week are still a little crazy. It's a two-week break between the end of the kids summer day care camp and the start of school, so me and the WW have been alternating days to stay home with them depending on who has important meetings at work that day.

This past weekend was my first without the boys. WW took them on a road trip (guilt trip is more like it) to Atlanta to see the aquarium and Stone Mountian.

I thought it would be nice to have a weekend to myself for the first time I can remember, but I ended up with a lot of mixed up feelings. Friday night I was invited out to a pub with a good friend and a couple other guys to watch one of their friends play. It was kind of cool to let loose, observe the single bar scene and flirt with the opposite sex, but it was also a huge trigger. It made me realize that this was the lifestyle my WW was living and I could just picture her there being hit on and reciprocating like all the other women there were doing.

Saturday I went out on my boat and had a good time, but Saturday night and Sunday definitely got lonely around the house with no one there. Sunday I tried to keep busy by going to church and then doing some furniture and grocery shopping, but I felt out of sorts all day. I couldn't put my finger on it, but when I woke up in the middle of the night with a 102 fever it made sense.

Another development, one of my oldest son's best friends lives just down the road from us and his mother is recently divorced. He road his bike over to the friends house one day last week and I talked to his mother a little over the phone. She was at church on Sunday and we sat together and talked about getting the boys together this week, also. Did I mention she is an attractive red-head and that her interest may be a little more than just the boys?

I know, I know, nowhere near ready to jump into anything like that, especially with the mother of one of my son's friends, but it is a little flattering to see opportunities like this opening up already.

Wednesday I appear before the judge for the final stamp of approval on our divorce. After reading many of your stories and on other boards, I really am amazed how quickly things move in my State.

.
Didn't see that one comin'. I guess those are the worst triggers; when you just don't expect it.

It's a big transition. You'll get into the rhythm of it sooner or later. I actually look forward to my days alone sometimes. I spend more intense time with them directly when they're with me, so when they're not it's a good break. Fortunately I can also still stop by and give them both a hug and hang out a little, so that makes it easier, but it does take time to get used to the new schedule.


You'll be fine. I think this type of encounter is helpful for you to stay out of the feeling of dread that you'll be alone or lonely the rest of your life. I actually went so far as to ask a few female friends if they new any singles that might be interested in going out when I was ready - of course they said yes. Even if it was bs it gave me some hope that life wasn't going to stop being tolerable.

Sounds like she's still in a pretty selfish mood. This could be a source of conflict, but fair is fair. I'll admit I'm still running into stuff she didn't take with her. I just put it in a pile in the basement, or I've dropped a box of stuff in her front hallway from time to time. I have room at this point, she doesn't. Sooner or later, though, I'll need the space. Maybe for a pool table....

sh2p, good to hear the update. Hang in, man.

opt

Love the shorthand for my username (sch2p).

Here's the story of the name. On any other message board I just use my first name and last initial because I detest the "cute" little names people give themselves and I don't like the idea of hiding behind an anomymous alias on the internet. I don't post anything that I wouldn't want attributed to me, so I don't need the anonymity.

That being said, this board was a little different and I certainly didn't want my x-wife (I can finally say that) stumbling across my thread. "Schtoop" came from how I felt, absolutely humiliated and "schtoopid" for letting this happen to me.

Final appearance before the judge was yesterday afternoon and I was there alone with my lawyer. He asked a handful of questions, "Is this marriage irretrievably broken?", "Did you both agree to this settlement in mediation?", "Is this your signature?", etc. His final question, "Could you envision anything this court could do to help repair the marriage?" I wanted to asked if he could turn my WW into a cross between Linda Carter and June Cleaver, but decided that would be disrespectful and just answered "no".

Got home and went back to bed with a 104 fever, so the whole thing is kind of foggy for me.

I will close on refinancing the house at the beginning of next month, then I will cut the x-wife a check for her share of the equity and be done. I went back and read Chrisner's entire D thread and was inspired by how well he adjusted and how dark he went with "wayzilla". However, with two young children and 50/50 custody, that's just not tractable in my situation. I'm just striving for indifference in all my interactions with WW.

Still trying to come out of the fog of this fever/chest infection. The last five days really have been a blur. I wonder if that's how it feels to be wayward?

Update: Got a chest x-ray this afternoon and guess what, I've got f'ng pneumonia! No wonder I've been out of sorts the past few days.

Sch2p

I haven't decided if it was a blessing or a curse to be as sick as you were on your day in court....

I tend to think it was a blessing and helped numb what had to be an already bad day.

Now all you need a cute nurse to help you through this tough spot !!!!!!!

I sure that will happen soon enough, you hang in there

Hope you are feeling better soon.

Sorry you are so sick! You need to be in bed, not on this board!
Glad your court day is over with...it's almost all done!

I've just gotten home and have a story to share.

My 6-year old son is playing Pop Warner (tackle) football this fall and is having a great time. Even though he is one of the smallest on the team, he really gets after it and loves tackling people (the actual ball carrier most of the time, LOL).

Anyway, the league's kickoff pep rally was tonight and it was quite an event. I brought the kids, but of course the XWW was to be there, too.

A bit of background, we agreed to divorce after OM#2 (that I know of). After that, but while she was still living in the house, a friend set her up with a weekend fling with yet another man who turned out to be a registered sex offender (I'm not kidding). Well, this a-hole is also a leader in the local "Parrothead Club" for Jimmy Buffet fans. Have I told you that I got really good at snooping?

Anyway, if it wasn't bad enough that I had to endure the XWW at this pee-wee pep rally, but the friend who set them up was also there. But that's not all, the a-hole sex offender was there too dressed in full pirate regalia (the team mascot is the Buccaneers, so I guess it fits).

Surprisingly, none bothered me as much as I thought it would. I don't know how much the XWW knew that I knew, or if I would recognize him or know the connection with her friend. Regardless, I just hung out with some friends and my other son, cheered for my football player, and didn't let it bother me. She never acknowledged Capt Hook.

She tried to join our group a time or two, but me and my good friend just ignored her.

I wonder what she was feeling through all this?

It must suck to be wayward.

Sch2p,

The A-hole is there because he is sniffing around the exww I know you know that.....

That mean's when the ex has the kids, there is risk of exposure, and I know you know that's bad.

I was wondering if you know any details of his conviction????

Knowing that would help me temper my response, to your exww and to the A-hole.....

After your breathing normal again I would have a heart to heart with the A-hole about what will happen if anything even sniffs wrong with your kids...

He needs to understand what a father's parental instincts are and how he will be effected by them.

I can't imagine the your exww would hang with this POS knowing what his past is and the threat that it represents to her kids. You just need to be sure she knows the facts.

Also, If this relationship does develop you will need to have a detailed talk with the kids on what to watch for and to speak up the second something is wrong. They need to know they can tell you anything and it will be OK. That you will help them no matter what.

SC,

Appreciate your concerns, but Capt Hook was there because of his friendship with some of the coaches in the league and past ties. This is our first season there.

The "friend" who set them up is the wife of one of the long-time coaches.

Besides, it was more of a ONS with him and the WW and she is now back to hot and heavy with OM#1 to the best of my knowledge. We had a talk about Capt Hook when it happened and I'm fairly certain she won't see him again, and never ever bring him around the kids.

Excellent,

one less thing to worry over

If he is a registered sex offender, he may be in violation by being there...they aren't usually allowed around kids. It might be worth a call to the State Police...those laws are there to protect the public. If he is blatantly disregarding them, he may be close to reoffending.

Today's installment, "Feeling good!", or "Is that the Karma bus I hear?"

I'm starting to feel back among the living this week. The fever is gone and my lungs are slowly clearing. Not 100% well, but at least my head is clear now and my energy level is back up from nearly zero. I got a very nice phone call from my MIL this weekend checking on me and my health, she was concerned and offered any help she could. My WW's only reaction to my health was a snide "Where did you catch that at?".

I've had the boys all weekend and have them until Wednesday morning. We didn't do anything special this weekend, just kind of hung out. Saturday was my 6-year old's Pop Warner Jamboree that was a lot of fun. Sunday we went to church, then I let the kids just veg out and watch TV and play video games all day, while I smoked some ribs. It was their last day of summer so they could spend it how they wanted.

Monday was the first day of school and though my oldest talked tough, they were both excited to be going back. I wonder if the WW felt left out by not being part of their first day?

Here's the Karma story. My WW belongs to a Bunco group with some of her good friends. Bunco is a silly dice game they get together and play once a month, but it's more to get together and socialize, eat, and drink wine than to play the game. Most of the women are married with families, with the exception of the WW's single party buddy named Stacy.

This Stacy is the primary buddy my wife has been going to bars with til all hours of the night for the past year or more. This is also the same friend that the WW has now moved in with.

Anyway, I hear from my neighbor yesterday that Stacy left last week's Bunco night in tears, claiming all the women were ganging up on her and blaming her for my WW's behavior and affair (how could they be so mean?). My neighbor also said that the women think my WW took her mid-life crisis way too far and was a fool for throwing away what she had. It made me feel good to know that is their opinion, even though they are my WW's friends and have only heard her side of the story.

So here I am, living in the family home with my two boys and all their neighborhood friends, sending them off to their first day of school. The WW is at a strange house that she doesn't even own, squeezing the boys in when she has them, and now facing disapprovement from friends that she thought would understand that she "needed to be happy".

It surely must suck to be a wayward.

I might let it slip to your neighbor that one of the "winners" Staci set your xWW up with (while married) was a registered sex offender.

Different "friend".

Schtoop, I imagine there are many with parallell stories. yours seems very similar to mine. I am near the point where you are. Wife is at home with her parents, trying to "Find Herself" but when she canned the divorce a little over a week ago, and said she had to fix this, she also though said she followed NC insisted I can not make her "Suzie Home Maker" and she had to be allowed to go out with her friends. She stayed out all night. 5AM home. I have continued my log, of her late nights to also hopefully help me with custody. I am in a uphill battle if it goes to court. Military, primary bread winner, and wife is a waitress. Lots of debt, no assets to speak of. I was originally inteding to keep all the debt, in hopes of limiting her 50 percent award of my pension. Now not so sure. If I go to a lawyer, thinking the 50/50 thing, and to heck with my pension, but again, as a waitress, I dont think a court in hell will give her 50 percent of the debt, she just doesnt earn enough to pay for a apartment and her car, let alone the debt. Mediation was the original plan, with working on a custody agreement being the major issue. Now I am wondering if I should just do the lawyer route to fight for the kids. Again, no fault state here, so the adultary doesnt play. 2 of my 4 kids would likely choose me and are of the age to be able to do so. Just not sure what to do. I think that even if the wife gave up the affair, but insists on the new party life style, I just cant live in a marriage like that. Roles have reversed the last 3 months since discovery, I do everything. Wife works nights waitressing and her 2 days off, she still doesnt help around the house. Been a single parernt for the most part anyway, so divorce would be no different.

Yesterday was the first day my wife was at her parents. I felt the lonelyness of what divorce would be like. It was very scarey. How to get through the lonelyness is my largest fear. I just wanted to go to sleep, but had to stay up long enough for my kids bed time. Work was pointless I couldnt concentrate. Ugg, sorry so long, just seeing your path, I guess it gives me a bit of a footing to move forward.

Here's the way it works in my state. It is a no-fault state and assumes shared custody as a baseline.

As far as division of assets and liabilities (debts), this is the way it works. You list all of the marriage's assets and debts in a financial affidavit that you are both required to provide the court.

Then either in mediation, or a judge will do it if it goes to court, the assets and liabilities are then split in a roughly equal manner. But, that doesn't mean that you each get half of the assets and half of the debt. It's the difference of the two that needs to equal out in the end. In your case, your retirement would be a large plus in your asset column. However, if the amount of debt you take on cancels out a large portion of that, you may end up close to equal with your wife. Talk to you lawyer, he will guide you through all of this.

After a few months of marriage counseling and on and off again no contact (I found later there was contact all along), I gave my WW three ultimatums. 1) Absolutely no contact EVER again, 2) Major lifestyle changes for both of us, but including her no longer going to single bars until all hours of the morning, and 3) Firm commitment to working on the marriage. When she tried to negotiate around all three, I knew we were done.

Have spoke with a lawyer, and he more or less said the cards are stacked against me. I know I am on the losing end of the stick due to my income level. I will probably have to assume all debt, just to get me to 50 percent of my retirement, let alone a larger portion. Alimony is somewhat limited in this state, at least they doing usually award huge checks. Its more about temporary "get on your feet" amounts. Mediation was my best bet for fair and equitable, and cheapest method, but if I really care about custody more so than my financial stability, I think court may be my best option.

Sometimes things have a way of working out...

In two days I will close on the refinancing of my house and cut the XWW a check for her share of the equity. This a great time to be refinancing and I got a hell of an interest rate. Standing on my own financially was one of my biggest fears of divorce, as my wife is an engineer and made roughly twice my salary.

But I have to say, things are looking pretty good for me on the financial front. By cashing out most of the equity in our home, I will be able to pay off my truck and a credit card and have the mortgage as my ONLY debt going forward. We were also able to divide up the assets so that each of us kept our own retirement accounts.

The monthly budget doesn't look too bad, either. I am amazed how far my salary goes without the XWW's frivolous expenses. Let me list some of them for you:

$150 per month expensive cell phone plan
$150 per month payment on a larger flat screen TV that I never agreed to (she got the TV and debt in the settlement)
$300 per month gas for her large SUV
$500 per month on credit cards (she got the majority of CC debt in the settlement)
$60 per month to massage envy
$50 per month gym membership she never went to
$150 per month for hair cuts
$40-60 per month for manicures/pedicures
$50 or more per month on Mary Kay cosmetics
$120 per month prescription drugs
$200 per month on a diet doctor (this stopped when he was arrested for prescription fraud, I'm not making this up).

$ literally thousands of dollars on clothes over the past year as part of her mid-life crisis

$Who knows how much on going out to restaurants and bars on her party nights

In addition to my budget and debt situation looking good, I've had a windfall in cash income in the last month. The university I work for came up with 3% bonuses for faculty because we haven't had a raise in three years. That bonus was in my last paycheck. I was reimbursed $1,500 from a pre-tax day care account a week ago. I will be getting back $2,000 from the retainer I paid my lawyer. The final bonus happened when I canceled a credit card, turns out I had gained something like 30,000 bonus points that I redeemed for $300 cash back.

One story for you on the XWW and family front. A bit of background, we have a family that we had been friends with for 15 or more years. XWW worked with the man at her first job and they have landed together a couple more firms in the course of their careers. At her last job, it turned out that he became her supervisor and they didn't get along and the frienship soured. I exposed to this guy during exposure and telling him and her old job was what really infuriated her about exposure. As a result of the friendship souring, the families haven't spent time together for a couple of years. The only exception is that our oldest sons are friends and they get together yearly for a birthday sleepover.

Well, this past weekend was her turn with the kids. This old friend planned to have the yearly birthday sleepover for his son and a few friends (including our son) at his lake house this past weekend, also. Friday afternoon he calls me out of the blue and invites me to go along to the lake to help entertain the boys and to hang out. I agree and tell my son I will be going along. When we exchange the kids Friday evening, I tell XWW of my plans and my son begs her to let him stay with me since we are going together to the lake tomorrow.

To her credit, she agreed without too much fuss. I know it burned her up inside that I was hanging out with an ex-friend she now wants nothing to do with. On top of that, I got to spend the weekend with my oldest son instead of having to mope around the house by myself.

So here I am..., financially stable, reconnecting with old friends, and still heavily involved with my children's lives. I have them for the labor day weekend and will be going to my mom's house on the coast to visit with family and go boating and fishing all weekend.

This post-divorce life might not be so bad after all.

That sounds great! Since she made twice as much as you, will you be able to get spousal support? She BLOWS more money than I LIVE on, that's amazing! You'll be okay in the end, you'll see.

I'm glad to hear you are doing alright.

Funny thing is the WS always thinks post divorce will be the best thing for them...when they realize it's not ROFL!! And always the BS always thinks that post divorce will be the hardest thing ever when in reality....it's the BEST decision!!



Stupid WS'S They don't see anything!

I'm so happy for ya shtoop.

You'll probably find yourself doing a lot of things that just wouldn't fly before. It's not all a bed of roses as you have acknowledged but there are definitely advantages to things being this way. Enjoy it.

opt

Just checking in, nothing much to update.

I'm falling more and more into a routine as a single dad now. It was WW's weekend with the kids, so it worked out that she had them 5 days in a row. The good news is that it didn't bother me so much this time, I busied myself hanging out with friends, doing chores, watching football, and putting my touches on the house.

But, that doesn't mean that I didn't see the boys. The youngest has football games every Saturday, so I got to see them and hang out a little at the game. Then they have scouts on Sunday where I help lead the dens, so I got some time with them on Sunday also.

Speaking of the house, the man-cave is rounding into shape. WW got in the settlement the expensive, giant flat screen TV and entertainment center that she unilaterally decided to purchase last year and moved them out of the house a week ago. Well, I went on a shopping spree and purchase a new TV stand and 42" flat screen to replace them. Total cost of her purchases (which were all put on credit card): $4,500. Total cost of replacements (I paid cash): less than $900.

I rearranged the furniture and hung my surfboard on the wall over the TV. The surfboard is an older Bud Gardner longboard in nearly perfect shape, really a beautiful board that is now considered a collector's item. She would never let me hang it in the living room. Now the room has nautical theme to it and the boys said they like it better!

Now all the rooms have been cleaned out and reorganized except for the two back bedrooms. One was a combo playroom and hobby room for her scrapbooking (that she hasn't done in 2 years). The boys share the other room. I plan to reorganize them both, get rid of a ton of unused toys, and give the boys separate rooms.

One of the benefits in living without the WW is that now I can keep a neat and tidy house. I always did about 90% of the household chores and had grown tremendously resentful that WW not only wouldn't help, but would scatter her crap everywhere and make keeping things organize nearly impossible. Now the man cave is nearly spotless and stays that way.

Speaking of the WW, perhaps the single life isn't all it's cracked up to be for her. She's complained several times in the last week how busy she is at work. On top of that, she's had the boys the last 5 days and all the running around to soccer and football practice, games, scouts, preparing meals, etc. that goes along with it. She had to drop the youngest at my house yesterday afternoon because she just couldn't do it all.

Another interesting tidbit, I noticed she has an active profile going on match.com. I guess things aren't all rosy with Mr. Wonderful. I always got the feeling that she was the pursuer during her affair and that he didn't want to be serious. I also know that she was more enamoured with being single and chasing multiple men than the typical WW who is hung on one guy.

Hope she gets lots of action (losers) on match.com. It must suck to be a wayward.

sh2p,
glad things are coming along for you. That's a great visual of the surf board above the television.

I put a pull-up bar going into the living room. I also bought a electronic piano that I always wanted and could never quite justify. Now my back doesn't hurt as much because the pull ups are strengthening my lats and playing every night has been really good for me.

I recognize (as do you I'm sure) that I could have POJA'd these things and others, once I knew what that was. But, I guess the short story is that opportunity just wasn't something I could get my hands on with my first marriage partner. So, making the best of being single (something I never wanted) is the best I can do.

Amen, brother. I had a hard time with the deep cleaning I had to do after stbx moved out because all I could think was that all the time she was having her little tea parties with OM's, dust and grime was piling up. It was an obvious manifestation of her irresponsibility (and now I'm recognizing that it was also an obvious manifestation of my lack of boundaries...but, live and learn).

You'll see them a lot. And with stress levels down and schtoop finding his own stride, they will really enjoy time with you. I'm so much of a better parent now that I'm rid of a lot of the stress of knowing deep down I was in a marriage where I wasn't satisfied.

Being separated has allowed me to re-examine my likes/dislikes in the absence of the outside influence. I'm trying to really get a grasp on what things are important to me (my faith, my music, the stuff hanging on the walls, how much clutter is acceptable, what kind of friends I want, how I spend my free time, etc.), and just how important those things are. Multiple advantages to this including that I'm starting to tolerate myself much more; I also feel I'll be better able to identify deal-breakers in a potential Mrs. Opt if I ever get to that point.

Anyway, sh2, I can totally identify with a lot of where you're at. I think you're doing great.

May I suggest you talk to the guidance counsellors at the kids schools and get them involved with a "Divorced Parents" group? My daughter 9 does it and loves it. She actually asked the teacher herself when was it going to start. I know it's a little different for boys, but still a good thing to bring up with the teacher since this is all so new.

DS14 was over tonight, doing his homework and hanging out (even though it's not my night...). He said "Dad, I've noticed we haven't ordered out since you got separated." WW used to get so many subs and order pizza at least once per week. I make my own food. The kids haven't even asked - he just brought it up b/c he noticed. Also the cable box has been on the fritz for a week, I can't get motivated to call the cable company and reset the box. Previously, this would have been a national crisis.

I think both our waywards were just wayward in general. That fantasy will crumble, and it's not going to be pretty. Are you truly ready for her to come crawling back? Because I think it could happen with you, schtoop. I think you're starting to detach pretty well. It takes time and you're doing a lot of things right, in my estimation. Just be ready for any contingency, right?

Frankly, being single at this stage in life is bad enough. But, yeh, knowing in your heart you threw away your marriage and being single... that would be tough to live with.

opt

Haven't posted in a long time, but I've been on here and kept up with some of the threads. Thought I'd do a little update for my MB's friends.

First, things are going well at the man cave. This past weekend I finished sorting through the piles of old toys and totally cleaned out the back two bedrooms (one the boys shared, the other was a playroom/craft room). The boys each have their own room now which they helped arrange and decorate and they are really excited about that.

Had the boys this past weekend and we had a great time. Had soccer and football games on Saturday, then they hung out and played with the neighborhood friends the rest of the afternoon. Sunday we went out on my boat for beach, swimming, and fishing and brought along a school friend of my oldest son. Finished Sunday evening by grilling out, then catching up on homework. The math was hard and my oldest actually worked through it with me rather than fighting me the whole time, a very rewarding change from the usual homework struggle.

I'm so glad that I'm in the old house with access to their old friends. All I hear about mom's "house" is how there's nothing to do there.

There's been a couple bumps on the co-parenting front. Last week I had to leave town early in the morning for a work trip, so we had to exchange the boys late at night after they were asleep. In the confusion, I forgot to pack their shoes for school the next day. I had also let them watch a R rated movie last week (the original Terminator, tame by today's standards) and I guess I playfully told them not to tell mom. Well, I got a nasty email about forgetting the shoes and making them late for school and for telling the boys to keep "secrets" from her. In it she mentions something about "good parenting".

As much as I wanted to blast her with a five-page dissertation on the lack of good parenting she's displayed in the last year, I held my tongue and simply responded with the facts and that I didn't need a lecture on parenting.

Now this week I hear comments from my oldest on how mom will get him a new game system for his birthday if dad will pay for most of the party. All of this is news to me and really puts me on the spot.

Speaking of the WW, guess who has a very active account on Match.com? Guess things are pretty dead with OM#1, or she just wants to bang every man that shows a remote interest.

Oh yeah, she's also going on a 5-day cruise with some of her "girls" to celebrate her 40th birthday in two weeks. It's the prospect of turning 40 that started all this partying and wayward behavior. That's alright, I will be spending her weekend with the boys while she's out blowing her settlement check.

I can hear the young Mick Jagger singing, "What a drag it is getting old...."

Did I also mention what a drag it must be to be a wayward?

nice to hear your update..

*Edit*

WTF?

Coulda been spam ~happened on my thread too. Look at the number of posts -10.
O

Freaked me out at first, thought it could have been xWW.

schtoop,

Been wondering as you were leading up to your mediation did you have talks with the ex about the settlement, throw some numbers around, and how did that go.....

Did you use all that journal stuff to help sway the mediation ?????

What was the most effective thing you did to help your side ?????


Did you pull out the A evidence in the mediation ????


Did you tell the ex about any of the evidence you had prior to the mediation ???

Is there anything you wish you had done differently ??????


Been trying to lay low off my threads for awhile ....got another month before I have our mediation now..

Hey, stillcommitted.

First of all, maybe I can put the process of mediation in proper perspective. Mediation is for you and your STBXW, not for the lawyers or anyone else. No one knows your situation like you two, and if you can put emotions aside, you can arrive at a much better solution for both of you rather than leave it in the hands of a judge who only knows what he can gather in a one day trial.

What I did and what I would advise is what I call "radio silence". Only talk about the divorce proceedings when it is necessary and then keep it all business (it was necessary when assembling financial documents, we actually did this together). Do not give away your strategy or threaten legal actions. Do not give any indication of how prepared you and your lawyer might be or what evidence you have. The more you keep them guessing, the better position you will be in.

Going into mediation, my xWW made it pretty clear that she wanted to avoid trial at all costs. I felt sort of the same, but was fully prepared to go to trial if we couldn't arrive at what I felt was a fair agreement.

We did have the opportunity to discuss what we could agree on before the mediation and it was very helpful. We pretty much agreed the 50/50 custody was best and even who kept the house and what to do with some old beach property we own. But, keep these discussions on the level of just finding out what each other is looking for in the agreement and DO NOT actually make agreements or concessions in these kind of conversations.

Now to answer your main question, mediation is not the place to bring out all your big guns or evidence. My lawyer briefed the mediator confidentially (you can tell the mediator what is OK to share with the other side and what is to be kept confidential) on my wife's infidelity and gave him a preview of what we would present in trial just so the mediator knew our position and could advise the other side that going to trial might not be a good idea if they were to get stubborn. Otherwise, the evidence or even adultery were not mentioned again.

Never gave my wife one hint of how prepared I was to go to trial. I was never this thorough and organized before, so she likely doesn't know to this day how much I had assembled. I would advise to not even hint about any journals or evidence you have prior to mediation.

What helped me the most? Probably my xWW's desire to avoid trial and the fact that I had hired a big gun, bulldog attorney. Definately came into the mediation from a position of power.

Final advice, the division of assets and debt and child support is pretty cut and dried under most state laws. You guys will decide how to divide the assets and debts, but in the end the net difference on each side needs to be equal and your lawyers will assure this. Child support is done pretty much by a formula based on custody and both spouse's income. If you agree in principle on the major issues, don't get bogged down in the details of the property split.

Anything I would have done differently? Looking back there were a couple of financial maneuvers I could have done leading up to the settlement that would have benefited my side of the ledger, but they only cost me a few thousand dollars which isn't that critical in the long run. We both left the mediation feeling like we left some money on the table, so it was probably pretty fair.

Hope this helps.

schtoop,

Thanks for the input, I'm trying to lay low for awhile on my tread just in case.

My kids are grown and having that out of the equation is a huge help.

Alomony is what it is all about for me and nailing that down reasonably is what we have left to fight over. My problem is I don't think she should get a dime and she has no problem asking for tons of it.

Our mediation has been put off for another few weeks so I still have some time to finish preparing.

Thanks for the input it helps me to feel better, no question about it I still have a long way to go and having you guys on this board is a life line for me.

I read your entire thread today. I'm in the midst of a messy D that's been going on nearly 2 years with no end in site. The fact is that my WH can't come to grips with the fact that he wasn't suppose to spend marital funds -- OUR MONEY -- on OW. He's bobbing and weaving and stalling and hiding -- which is funny since he's the one who started the D process and he's the one who's living with and now engaged to OW. Anyway, my stranger-than-fiction thread is on the Infidelity Forum but I hop over here once in a while for legal advice. SO... thanks for sharing!

I think you have handled your situation admirably. You're a great role model for your kids and WW is such an idiot. One day, she'll regret it like they all will. It just might not be until their deathbed.

I just have to comment on one of your earlier posts where you outline WxW's spending. I nearly choked when you noted $50/mo. on Mary Kay Cosmetics.

See -- the manipulative, gold-digging OW in my sitch sells Mary Kay as her full-time (ha) job. I can bet that at least one of your WW's bar-fly friends is selling this crap to your WW AND feeding her the Mary Kay mantra of cutting out negative people in her life, living for herself, ignoring the truth, acting "as if," etc. I've gathered quite a bit of intel on both OW and Mary Kay -- even finding a website called Pinktruth which exposes the wayward thinking of Mary Kay. I swear -- it talks about the fog of the Mary Kay approach, how it misleads women with half-truths and it's own kind of reality, how it feeds a void in these women's lives, etc. Mary Kay sounds EXACTLY like the script that OW and OM say in affairs. VERY WAYWARD!

My WH stupidly lives with OW who's already had 2 H's even though she's only in her 30's. I heard OW's friend who also sells Mary Kay just filed from D from her H. My inlaws neighbor who sells Mary Kay is on H #4. I believe THE original Mary Kay Ash had 5 Hs. I'd bet good money that the woman selling Mary Kay to your WW is either divorced or going through a divorce. And your WW may be the next Mary Kay recruit since the saying "birds of a feather..." still goes.

But who cares about WW. You -- Keep up the good work. You've got your head on straight and you are headed in the right direction. Good job!