He self referred on to the course. Not a true monster, just monstrous tendencies.

Maybe it was a mistake bubbles and just maybe between us we can put it right.

My children are happy, confident and well behaved for the most part. More so than many,many of the children I see every day at the school I work in. So far we seem to have handled our mistakes fairly well.

This can still work and we will do every thing we can to help them be happy and successful adults.

ST,

Thank you for your response.

Your example of the tickle bundle was perfect--the boundary J didn't enforce progressively around himself. He did the first enforcement saying something about the feet. He did it reasonably. Unfortunately, the second enforcement was a repeat...and kids don't really hear repeats (and if you think about it, adults rebel against repeats because it is saying they didn't hear you). We know this...even as we do it (I sure did).

Second enforcement, as you described it, saying what would happen if he got hit by their feet again, was right on. Third enforcement is walking away from the tickle bundle and saying why.

J's own empowerment...to set his predetermined boundary enforcements and hold himself to them, is part of changing his reactions, his cycles. Breaks them to pieces and he won't experience automatic rage as he practices them, over time, retraining his brain to hand him reasonable instead of rage.

When I asked you to consider that teaching your kids, young as they are, how to state respectfully when J crosses their boundaries (in the previous incident with DD) would be like that signal he asked you about...and you said it wasn't her responsibility...J's the parent. Which shows me you're in the mindset of blame assignment, not positive solutions...because empowering your kids to speak (like to scream when strangers attempt to give them rides or lure them away) is part of parenting. A scary part.

We teach children boundaries without calling them what they are--how their bodies are personal, what's good touch and what's not; we teach them when their boundary is violated (their sibling hits them) that's a line that's been crossed...we don't use the language that says, "When I'm hit, I hold myself to doing <blank>"...and stating "Hitting me is wrong" can be the first action...words as actions...first enforcements...which replaces the "hit back" as first reaction.



Again, when practiced. Won't make perfect children or adults...heck, we actually choose to cross our own boundaries, to skip enforcements and jump to our last one...our mind will hand us those reactions as justified, logical, okay...when they truly are not what we want most.

I was trying to show you in my last post how destructive our perspective is when our goal that we're operating from is:

How can I make others NOT mistreat me?!

You can't.

You cannot control anyone else's actions...that power is solely in their choice...your kids, J's and your own...

And yet, our minds will focus (from childhood, when the belief is formed) on getting others to ACT or NOT act according to what we want.

Boundaries go around ourselves, are the standards we hold ourselves to and act from...as we fight our own destructive reactions...and we do make a choice to act or react.

Justification is the key to abuse...and I believe all people abuse others at different times, in different ways. We hand it down...comes from our parents (and theirs) and we pass it onto our children.

Until we stop.

If you hold your goal at controlling anyone else, you will be abusive...getting them to stop rather than yourself to start means you're in the voluntary army of retaliation, cemented to being the cause, control and cure for others, and because of your choice of believing you can get others to change, you are abusive (disrespectful and deceptive).

To justify is to lie.

There is no rationalization for our shameful reactions.

There are boundaries we set, and boundary enforcements we take. Period. Predetermined, progressive ones...you'll know when you really don't have them when you are wrestling an all or nothing proposition...

Do I stay or do I go? (Predetermined boundary enforcements tell you when you go and when you stay.)

Is this the hill I want to die on? (Again, healthy boundaries and predetermined, progressive enforcements will tell you if you're there or not, and only you determine which boundary was crossed, when and how it was crossed...and what you are to do.)

These questions let you know you're not seated in your boundaries...instead, you have them around someone else and are not examining if you're moving or have moved the boundary, or even if it is your boundary and if you've held yourself to it.

ST, as long as you go by "Shouldn'ts/Shoulds" you are not practicing boundary enforcements. You are wishful and in an objective control place...understand that urge to make definitive "shoulds/shouldn'ts" instead of true ownership "I will/will not" (boundary), will keep you spinning around, replaying the same cycles...your part won't change.

I hope you and J will sit down together and talk about what "shoulds" hit inside you...from your beliefs, to what you feel when J says "you shouldn't feel that way" or when you tell J "You shouldn't do that"...and be open to really hearing...striving first to understand, then be understood. Above all, safe for each other to share...investigate together...and three times, ask yourself "what's my goal in this discussion right now"...once at the beginning, once in the middle and once at the end.

Boundaries..."Shouting is abusive" is a boundary. No should in there. Shouting can be tone, volume, menacing body language/facial expressions. Not just one thing.

If your third/fourth boundary enforcement is yelling...then you'll notice you do it after you repeat your first one (saying stop), saying stop again, then resorting to yelling 'cuz the other person made you by not stopping.

We have distorted boundary enforcements (like the preceding description) before we choose and define our healthy boundaries and predetermine our progressive ones.

Our distorted ones come most often from what we experienced as children...wasn't taught about them...or was, and then shown the opposite. So we innately do know boundaries...we just usually do toxic ones.

Redefining and aligning...to me, I had to remove the belief that I made others angry, retaliatory, made them hurt me...as my DH described his view of being a boy...boys will usually feel emotionally hurt by a friend, and then retaliate from the pain physically...duke it out...until both rages subside...each trying to to hurt the other enough to get them to stop hurting them.

And once it's done, they can go on with their day, being friends...with some bruises/resentments...yet each feeling they did hurt the other enough to stop them from hurting them anymore.

False belief...and yet, also healthy. You can see the first boundary enforcement...doesn't go to clarity, confirming what they heard the other kid say; doesn't use verbal skills (and when hurt emotionally, one boy might yell first (still hurting back) trying to get the other boy to take it back...and the same cycle follows.

AO's come from way back...have to have entitlement (he deserved it...hence, he is the cause; ergo, the ruler of me...he makes me feel pain otherwise I wouldn't)...lots of those beliefs in there. Challenge those in your adult selves...really investigate them.

As J begins to make it safe for him to interact with all of you...all the time (the biggest goal and most unlikely); that doesn't mean you will feel safe...though he may be truly safe...or mostly safe...for most of the time. You have your half...and he has his...not all or nothing.

You have to example not hurting back for your kids to learn not to do that themselves. Very hard. Means when you feel hurt, you DON'T withdraw (like your rockin' recent choice)...you don't do the silent treatment abuse...the shutout...instead, you identify what boundary J crossed (and make sure it wasn't YOU crossing it...anger is the signal for the boundary being crossed, doesn't say by whom).

J probably has already heard this in his course...ST, you have to define your own...subject to the same laws of respect as J is...as am I and all the other humans on the planet.

You both are equally powerful and limited...defining what you're inherently responsible for and what you cannot be responsible is crucial to experiencing a loving, respectful, fulfilling relationship.

You can do this. I think you have made some new boundaries in the last couple of years...focus now on your own boundary enforcements...especially what you hold yourself to doing (not J).

LA

Thank you for your detailed reply and clarity

I find it really hard to back out here. I have to think really carefully about how to get this across without DJ or making him feel wrong. Thing is he does know the best way to deal with these things - he just seems to forget.

He does "control logs" for his course and these help him to unravel his underpinning beliefs and get him to evaluate the affect his AOs have.

The great thing this week was, that he went having completed a control log about the incident the previous w/e and had worked out which thought processes and beliefs led him up the wrong road. I felt then that he cared for us. Not only did he go with the intention of talking, but he actually spent time doing the prep work ofr the conversation.

It is hard. I guess this could be done with the story about the boy who called wolf.... is she really ready for that? I'll think about a way to get it across that it can just be used for if he is really being unreasonable -and not just for her to get her own way.


hmmmmm, yep.



How can I make others NOT mistreat me?!

You can't.

This is something that is very easy to say, I have discovered and very easy to see happening in someone else's life. But it is hard for me to see it in mine, I think that I'm not trying to control J's actions but then afterwards I see that i have tried to.

LOL. I was at mum and dads this morning. Mum and I were having a conversation about perfectionists - Mum thinks Dad is and he doesn't deny it. Dad was telling us how hard it is when everyone around him doesn't meet his standards (he is a really sweet person,very friendly but also shy and a very hard worker - very very rarely gets angry). Mum was telling him that that was his problem - you can't expect things form people or try to change them.

I still don't seem to get this. I get it for saying no, for not taking on more responsibility and for not taking on things that take me away from my family; but I know I still do try to take responsibility at times for J adn my sis and I can try to impose myself on them. I need to go back to the book.




I need to slow down again and take a deep breath. School hols, so no work for 5 weeks. I can try to use my time to take another look at me.


How very true.




complicated. needs more pondering.

These questions let you know you're not seated in your boundaries...instead, you have them around someone else and are not examining if you're moving or have moved the boundary, or even if it is your boundary and if you've held yourself to it.

This is really hard in parenting, isn't it?



I'll come back to the rest after dinner, I hope.

It's great to be able to work through your post here. Thank you.

ST...

Yes, all of this is really, truly difficult. Not easy.

Just worth it.

Super-fantastic book: "Between Parent and Child" by Eincott (very old, 20th printing kinda book, small) for your five weeks off...and self-examination.

It was this book that taught me how to act from respect.

Now, about the responsibility question...where you've learned to say no to others (prioritize marriage first, then kids, then family, then others). But taking more than your share from J and the kids?

Do the same thing J is...the same process. Trace your thoughts and beliefs behind your actions...see where you want to reach in (we're taught that's compassionate, not enabling or disrespectful) and take more than yours...

Kudos to J for focusing and using that experience for his own growth. He is acting to make his wife and family safe...and himself. Won't work all the time...there will be exceptions...however, they will be far and few between, and what he does afterward...the amends, ownership (the more immediate the better), the radical honesty...that's repairing.

Same for you. When you overreach, are disrespectful in that way, catch yourself...then the faster you own and amend, using radical honesty...you'll repair.

I say this because I believe it's true for all of us, all the time...perfectionism is another way to control, reject and disrespect. Holding others to our standards, focusing on them for when they fail, fall short; using our energies to put them into which box today...heck, sure takes the focus off of our thoughts and actions...like a vacation...only not. Your mum was correct...we can know that in our heads and NOT see it reflected in our actions...because deep down, we believe to "do our best" requires perfection...to be loved requires a constant goodness, not intrinsic...only earned and lost...lacking.



Kind of like berating ourselves in our heads with these negative tapes...sure feels good to get away from that (though it keeps going) and focus on someone else, eh?

Was for me...distracting through others...and boy, did they pay for it. So did I. It's really great not to live that way anymore, ST.

Forgive yourself for trying to make others do and not do...which is when you'll experience deep conflict...because you're in fantasy, blame and struggle. Those are the signals you're not where you have power. Get them...entirely your responsibility is to get your own signals...trace your own reactions...know your own thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, feelings and perspective.

Practice re-seating yourself in your power--daily, hourly, by the minute when you have that compulsion to make someone else pay, regret, rejoice, feel relief or change.

You're not a mess or wrong or broken. Know your urges and share you have the urge...just like J...and do not act out.

State, don't demonstrate.

LA

Took me an awful long time to eat my dinner - didn't want to come back unless I could think about me and J.

We did do this... it is really really hard to understnad but I do try and he tells me I have that look of a mixture of disbelief and contempt on my face, and I have to fight hard to keep it off. Because I can't fathom some of the thought processes he goes through...and I have to keep this in mind, and I also have to keep in mind that although these are his beliefs in the heat of which ever moment that in hindsight his thoughts and beliefs don't marry. Which is sort of a relief but kind of makes it more unfathomable because if he is opposed to the way he thought, why does he still act on it?

And this was s'posed to be about me, but I've made it about J again



See, this is it, I don't make it safe because I pull that face, so I will have to keep asking myself that question LA, because I know the answer so well and it may just help me keep my expressison neutral or whatever else it needs to be. My brain is rubbish at hiding thoughts, so I need to change the way I think.

Boundaries..."Shouting is abusive" is a boundary. No should in there. Shouting can be tone, volume, menacing body language/facial expressions. Not just one thing.

I think I failed to define progressive ones. I need to find a way to measure progression: maybe just record things, diary.

My mum is a "can't possibly say no" type. My dad - a conflict avoider. J's dad a conflict avoider.

The belief I have to do away with is that people need my help to make them better, make life easier for them and show them the best way to do things...and maybe the slight martyrism that goes with it.


This is something that has really become evident and something I am working on - losing the label. But I need to find that line again, between the odd blip and still an upward move and what is a disaster for us. I need to maintain my level of emotional investment even when there is tension and i get slightly fearful (usually unfounded) - this is what is so very hard. Seem to keep rolling back down the hill.

I don't know how else to deal with it at that time. If I idnetify the boundary crossed for me - it can make him madder, and then I do disappear???? At least if I take myself away til the dust settles he can't make anymore LB� withdrawls.


Agreed.


Thank you. I can do this. I can do this. Should it make my head hurt so much??

I'm still catching up...

Thank you for your time LA.


I just ordered it. �2.38


Now, about the responsibility question...where you've learned to say no to others (prioritize marriage first, then kids, then family, then others). But taking more than your share from J and the kids?

Do the same thing J is...the same process. Trace your thoughts and beliefs behind your actions...see where you want to reach in (we're taught that's compassionate, not enabling or disrespectful) and take more than yours...


I do, before my mouth opens a lot of the time - i just need to nail those looks.

That's me! and I think I touched on this in my last reply to you - just trying to show them how they can be better... and it does take the focus away from myself. It is very funny, if I think about thinking about me, I first of all hit a panic and then calm washes over me. But always the panic first and sometimes, I don't get past that moment of panic - so much to do, it would take far too long to work on me right now. As I said I should have some reflection time now, so i can get past the panic.


Shame she can't practice what she preaches. LOL.



Good, Are real weight off the shoulders. I have to say I have been feeling lighter over the last 18months or so, since beginning to learn about boundaries.


Might write myself a note on the mirror. Done.



I'm gonna write that on the mirror too.

ST

THings have been good around here.

School holidays, so I'm not working. J has noticed that there are now lots of little jobs that I have time for and it is easier to keep on top of all the day to day stuff.

I have noticed that becasue I actually have time to do the housework/gardening and errand running/bank stuff etc he is being much more attentive to me - ticking some admiration boxes, and performing little acts of service for me. I'm actually beginning o feel cared for.

So, there are 4 weeks left of hols. We'll monitor and see what happens.

He said it was bothering him that things are so much easier wihout me working - I guess this is 2fold: 1 because of the money that we need and 2 because he knows I wouldn't cope being a FT SAHM.

But at least he can see that when I do have time I do get on and get things done. And that it is my choice to be on top of things.

A friend commented yesterday that maybe she could afford to cut her hours after we realised that what she has as disposbale income is the same amount we have for disposable and grocery shopping and fuel (nothing left for saving).

ST,

Make as much progress as possible before the stress and lack of time returns. MAXIMIZE the benefit of having the time to make Love Bank deposits in each other's accounts.

It's like building an emergency fund when money is flowing for times when it gets tight. If your balance is really high and things in life throw you a curve, you have enough to avoid going into the red even though additional expenses have appeared or income has dropped.

By having a "cushion" built up, if something happens that stresses the relationship, even if that is not of your own (you AND/or J), you are less likely to fall behind than if you are simply maintaining from day to day. This is why weekends away together or date nights or couples' vacations can do a lot of good for a relationship. It raises the balance to well above the romantic threshold and gives you enough to get through a short lean period where not much is going on with adding to the relationship and daily life is still depleting what you have.

The Love Bank model would indicate that even things that are not directly the result of what you and J might be doing can take a toll on your love for each other. It is being WITH each other when having an emotional downturn that causes us to associate the negative emotions with each other and not always the things that either of us is doing. Simply living life with all the hassles of work, child rearing, school, paying bills, dealing with family or friends, and a bunch of things you never saw coming in your worst nightmares can be enough to over time to associate the problems with the person though all of it is beyond his or her control.

It is when our Love Bank is depleted by daily life that our TAKER starts to desire to get even more. Though the drain on our emotional state might not even be related to what he or she has done, we SEE it as if they are the reason for our unhappiness. We FEEL that our stress would be less if we didn't have them around and so we transfer our feelings to them. Resentment shows up to rob us of our memory of good things of the past and before long, we start to think that if we could just not have met our spouse, married, had kids, had bills to pay and jobs to work, our life would be so much easier and it all started with us falling in love with them. It's all HIS fault (or your fault from his POV.)

Our rational self KNOWS this, but our FEELINGS short circuit our ability to process this kind of thing logically and we end up making choices and deciding on actions from our emotional brain instead of our thinking brain.

So make hay when the sun shines so the critters can be fed when the rains come, because anything left in the field then will be a wet and soggy mess.

Mark

Thanks Mark. Makes a lot of sense

Incredible isn't it how something always comes along to screw things up or make things a little trickier....?

I just dislocated my toe - much more painful than when I previously broke one...

painkillers taking the edge off it

Can't put weight on it.

Who's going to do the ?

Dinner wasn't on table when he came in and i haven't yet managed to unpack today's picnic things.

How am I going to get DD to dentist in the morning?

Sounds pathetic doesn't it? But it really hurts

We snogged today - while out at the pet shop with 4 children and the dog.

We've been reading LBers together. He is seeing that he should appreciate me as his wife and a person, not just a mother and housekeeper.

I got a hug when he came home form work the other day which was really nice too.

Nasty 1st anniversary just gone too - I see that one more as the mark of the beginning of the rest of our lives, rather than dday. Kind of feel some relief for making it a year and things still moving forward.





He's still doing most of the dog walking.

and we are skint but actually quite happy.

I had more of a realisation this morning as well about affairs and reality. The highs of M are never going to be the same as the highs of an A - but they are equal in different ways - and I am not fogged out and I don't think you'll see me taking that back.

The highs of M (like now) run a lot deeper than the highs of an A and have a lot more value.

The highs of an A - no matter how thrilling and freeing at the time -can never happen in M and I have felt some relief as I realised over the last few days that that isn't what I'm striving for. I can be happy and enjoy life.

I agree with this. It is like comparing a crack high to a joyous, happy, productive life. The crack high is very high but it quickly turns dirty and ugly and unsustainable. The morning always comes and one has to look in the mirror and see a crackhead.

HAd a bit of a close call last night when he came back form his course.

I think the main thing we seem to be dealing with now is my sensitivity to any tension in him.

This is something that I would like to work on with him.

He came home last night and because things were in such a good place I felt safe tot alk about hte course and of course one of the things with the course is that he is s'posed to discuss it with me although we haven't been so good about that - beacuase of my fear and he doesn't volunteer.

He'd told me that it was about physical abuse and they were discussing signs and how to recognise them - he always thought he didn't have any - I said that I see them and have been trying to let him know/ enforce my boundary - and he said "that is what triggers me".... hmmmm

he still needs to do a bit more work then - if he still has this underlying that it is my fault when he gets physical.

anyway we left it and I came back to chatting when we went to bed - he thought I was doing it to avoid being affectionate and make out how bad he was - didn't tell me this just sulked - so at that point I was freaking out - his last attack started after a convo at bed time - so I did a little spiel in my head about him being frightened of something - rejection maybe and the guilt he feel, which makes him angry adn telling myself that he is capable of doing things differently to the old ways and tried that old empathy thing - despite my own anxiety.

It worked!!!


THings are still good today but I did have to work very hard at removing him when DD came with a prob with her ipod. Lost/ broken, general carelessness are still things that can send him over the edge. Managed to quell that and let him know that we will discuss guidelines for ipod usage away from DD tonight - great opportunity for POJA.

I thought I didn't have a need for any physical affection but actually since I've been getting little bits, I actually quite like it.

It really wasn't that long ago that I couldn't tolerate him touching me at all.

But last night was scary and i worked hard to stop the escalation by changing what I do. I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable because it meant a much needed conversation for me was ended and I may possibly be slightly reluctant to try again for a little while.

I think without these conversations about the course and what his thought processes are I will find it hard to open up completely and show real vulnerability.

So, here we are.

It's a little after 2 years since DDay and we're still about to tell the tale together.

And what completely different people this journey has turned us into.

And a much different couple.

We talk. We share. We think of each other. We ask each other's opinion. WE ASK EACH OTHER FOR HELP. We tell each other if we've been hurt by the other. We look forward to being together. We work as a team. We have lots of hugs and cuddles. And.... we sometimes have sex.

J has completed his perpetrators of abuse course (in case any of you remember the trying2hide user), and went from scores of 1 or 2 out of 5 when he started to all 6 scores of 5 and 2 of 4, I'm yet to find out what that means.

He goes for a chat once a month now.

So 2 years on from the end of a 19month A and a year on from the end of an abusive and sometimes violent 11 year M.

We still work hard at it. We have to work hard to factor in UA time, I'm still reading HNHN and Lovebusters but we are now providing a safe and secure family for our children and we are enjoying life again.

It's a blinkin' good job I found this place and all those people that helped me through those dark days.

Thank you

What an incredibly positive update. Thats just made me all warm inside. Thankyou.

So glad to hear a success story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I saw this was being read today and decided to pick up on it...what a difference from last year.

So a year ago, I was still expecting J to hurt me, I was still expecting him to be cruel with his word and expectations and I was still sensitive to his every move.

I can read in me the wall I had around myself.

I s'pose looking back now the wall that I had up has partly gone. I no longer look to blame him for how I feel. I don't hold him responsible for my feelings.

If his expectations are different to mine, we discuss it and deal with it instead of one of us trying to control the other - as happened this morning with a slight conflict about packed lunches and a volleyball tournament.

I was looking at a checklist on another marriage forum, from codependents anonymous.... it would seem that I have become an avoider although I always thought I looked for confrontation.

My last update was 6 months ago. I can honestly say that our relationship has improved again from that point.

Still a way to go, I still have to work on issues with me and intimacy and I still need to try to be vulnerable with him physically and emotionally - but I've never been like that with anyone.

Very well done ST. Thanks for the update.

When you say "I've never been like that with anyone", I say"give yourself a break, you're only 34, most people under 30 aren't capable of 'being like that' anyway. Especially boys who are clouded by all that testosterone in their teens and twenties. Part of this is a maturing process for both of you.

I know I've grown up a lot in this recovery process.

Godspeed,

Mr. Wondering