No she doesn't, no she didn't and you know that. So will anyone who goes to the thread and reads the exchanges.

MelodyLane did not compare your adultery to Hitler's acts. She compared your saying that your act did not define you with saying that Hitler's acts do not define him.

She meant your adultery at the time of your adultery, and for as long as you seek to justify or rationalise it. She does not mean that you are thus defined forever. When you define your adultery as evil and through your acts, never commit that evil again, you will no longer be evil.

She used your own logic about the good things you did and applied to it Hitler, who also did some good things, to show you how absurd that logic is.

Please stop this. People here are trying to help you recover, but you keep saying things that sound like more rationalisation and self-pity.

SW, yet you didn't answer my question. I am calling *YOU* on it and you have YET to explain why it is ok to judge Hitler by his behavior but not you.

Pitching a hissy fit is not an answer; IT IS A DISTRACTION. And I don't blame you for running because you and I both know you can't answer the question. If you did you would be forced to ADMIT that it makes no sense to not hold you to the same standard to which you hold others. You are running from the truth.

I will keep up until you answer my question. You will not distract me with your FIT.

Explain to me WHY we should not judge you by your behavior but we should judge Hitler?

SW, it is obvious that you want a special exemption for yourself but feel free to judge everyone else by their behavior. Just as you judged me for my behavior, you judged these folks for their behavior in another one of your posts:


"They did an evil, vile thing. That doesn't define them. They also do good things. Good caring people sometimes make horrible evil decisions but that doesn't make them horrible evil people." <---- your defense of wayward adulterers

Its obvious that you have nothing against judging others for their behavior but hypocritically DEMAND a different standard for yourself.

We have a special name for that here in Texas! --->

Wayard translation: Someone held up the mirror and made me take a deep look at how my ACTIONS were in fact vile and evil.



I warned you that looking into the mirror was going to be very hard. No one here has called you EVIL or VILE and you know it. This is just the latest attempt by you to defend the indefensible. Defending is what you do though isn't it? They described your ACTIONS as evil and vile when you were an active adulterous which is very different. Yet somehow you've made it all about you. Typical wayward mindset....you need to regroup SW. Quit trying to defend your A and get humble.

Let me ask you this SW. If anyone truly believed YOU were evil and vile, why on earth would they be wasting their free time trying to help you overcome the evil and vile ACTS you committed???

It makes absolutely no sense and you know it...

Want2Stay

You have been trying to paint yourself as the victim from the moment you started posting here so why am I not surprised you are trying to do it with the boards as well?

It's nice to play the victim because then you don't actually have to be responsible for your actions and you're not responsible when things don't turn out the way you like.

This hasn't been working in your M and it isn't going to work here either.

SW, what's happened here? It looked like things were improving, no? How did it all get to this point?

Please, sit down and just think for a while. You can only control you - that includes your reactions here. Quiet your mind, let go of any feelings of being insulted, any vendettas, and, please, evaluate what is being said here with an open heart and mind. Be honest with yourself, and come back here with any arguments or questions.

Remember, the goal is a better M and a better you - you CAN do this!

From the "New Rants" thread:


SaddestWife,

When I switched over to this thread this afternoon and read your latest post (which chronologically FOLLOWED the above), I became once again disheartened. It seems most every time I post constructive/non-condemnational comments like the above to a wayward-spouse, I end up disappointed with the non-introspective and bristled reactions that ensue. It has happened with at least a dozen wayward individuals (screen names withheld) in my limited involvement here, so I am sure that more tenured MB-participants here have seen it far more often than I have. It really makes me want to not waste my time trying to reach the unreachable�I stick mostly to comforting & advising BSs as a result.

Furthermore, it frankly seems that the WHs who come here are generally more receptive to �a mirror being held to the face� than the WWs are. One would think that women�who often are quick to rank themselves as the more sensitive, thoughtful, & empathetic gender�would be MORE willing to engage in self-awareness and repentance towards others rather than LESS. But, that does not seem to be the case with adultery and its fallout�at least not here on MB. Even though I know better on an academic level, I am still baffled and stunned at times how it is that so many sensible, intelligent, grounded women will cling insistently and untenably to the notions that their adultery is/was somehow �mitigated by the circumstances�, �not really my fault entirely�, or �shouldn�t be looked at judgmentally�.

The mentality of self-entitlement, scapegoating, defensiveness, and irresponsibility runs so strong�even AFTER �asking for help�. It all reminds me of how my WW behaved both pre- and post-divorce�and nausea results.

GloveOil�s post about �not keeping score� & �unilateral disarmament� as a recovering-wayward was so on-point and also so simple to understand. SW, please drop the self-pity-party�and read again. What is the problem here???

SadW, you are blame shifting to the MAX.

I for one was confused as to why you thought that the post that started all of this was even directed at YOU personally. Then you say that MelodyLane compared you to Hitler when she did no such thing. She used Hitler to quash YOUR argument. You were losing it and you got mad and pulled out the poor poor me card. STOP IT. You are a grown woman with grown children and you are acting worse than a child.

Now, as I was saying about the tally sheet you have on your husband, you now have one on us to. FUNNY how the LB$ concept works in all facets of life, eh? You are now threatening us with repeated bouts of fogginess in the future if we do not stop treating you "harshly." You are going to be the SAVIOUR of so many future waywards. Well, good luck with that. I really believe that MB and DrH is the BEST way to save waywards and BSs from adultery but is you feel like you kow better, I am NOT going to get in your way. Have at it. et us know how it all turns out and how you have become a happier, stronger and better person by doing it YOUR way.

If this is the way that you act when you are backed up against a wall, you must be a good lawyer. Making people argue themselves into a corner and losing focus would bode well in your profession, how did it work for you in your personal life?

You really don't like answering questions though do you? Hmmmmmmm. You should look into that, or not, it's completely up to you. My anonymous life will continue on whether you choose to save your marriage or not. I WILL become a better person day to day and I WILL have a lot of these posters(MelodyLane included) and this forum, along with DrH to thank for it.

MelodyLane usually stops posting to someone who isn't getting it way before now. She must see something in you. Hmmmmm, I wonder what that is.

You are quickly earning a place on the "ignore" list for many a veteran here who had hoped you would be one of those waywards to experience personal if not marital recovery.

Why?

Because you crave validation for your wickedness as "not as bad as".

Why?

Because deep down you know the primary difference between your evil and another's is that you have a psychological license to perpetrate.

You followed me through my day today, stuck in a part of my mind that I wish you weren't there. As I sat and listened to the message, my mind wandered back to you and how you've described your husband. I pondered the intimacy of the destruction you caused in his life. For a time my mind wandered to other examples of evil you used, and Mel used.
Setting Hitler and child molesters/perps aside my mind came back to you, sitting there on your tuffet, proudly proclaiming hideous crimes as much worse than yours and I blushed for shame for you. You took the very manhood of someone you promised before God to love and protect, to honor and cherish, and you ripped it from him. You couldn't cut yourself loose from him first via legal divorce. No. You didn't leave him for cause back then. Instead, your hatred of him was expressed in the most vile, devastating form possible.

Shame on your pride and arrogance. You seem like you are softening and reel us back in to help you and then you pull a stunt like today.

Shame on you. I hope ten years from now, you read the archives and find yourself reading your own rantings of defense. I hope there is enough good in you to blush for embarrassment.

While you preserve your pride, you lose the chance to recover your own self. Forget about your marriage. It's done. Toast. Bye-Bye. You traded any hope of recovery for your pride. But you could have recovered yourself, had you been willing to face the true nature of your wrongs.

I don't know that I've ever read something that made me so angry here as your response today.

Good luck!

I�m losing my mind. Or maybe I've lost it.

My mother has been in the hospital in Boston since last Wednesday and I haven�t called her.

She taught me well that it is OK for my H to treat me the way he did because she did it herself. Mothers with narcissistic personality disorder do not generally raise emotionally healthy daughters. I won�t call her because no one is EVER going to speak to me again the way she and my H did.

We marry to complete the unfinished business of our childhood. It may not be true, but mental health professionals love the phrase.

I am fu****g FURIOUS with myself for taking the coward�s way out and taking the despicable, passive/aggressive course of an A instead of filing for D. I didn�t think I had a cowardly bone in my body, and it is becoming clear to me that that is the only sort of bone I have. You don�t think I get it, but you are wrong � so, so wrong. When I started the A, my pdoc was horrified � �don�t, -- you will beat yourself to a pulp and descend again into that pool of self loathing and we�ve already been there.� I am my own harshest critic.

I DESPISE passive/aggressive people � they are emotionally toxic. And I should know because I learned at the feet of my mother the Master.

I am in agony with not knowing what to do � should I file or try? Is wanting to keep my family together a good enough reason to put my H and my S15 through it? Or is that more cowardice?

I�m trying to Plan A my H and deal with the vortex of emotions that my mother causes which makes me withdraw from my H. I sit on the porch and write and cry and I can�t talk to him because he isn�t emotionally safe for me, particularly on something as volatile as my mother, and withdrawing is so not in Plan A so I am failing at that too, and it is all just too much.

And then I read about how I am evil and hated and I�m not willing to look in the mirror and Hitler�s name gets thrown in the mix and it feels like an exercise in futility to even consider trying because if I am so evil that Hitler is brought up, I am irredeemable, and maybe I am, but fighting back is reflexive to me.

My mother and my H are a huge tangle of feelings, pain � such HUGE pain, remorse, constant failure, fear � my God, the fear I have of both of them because they know how to go for my soft underbelly -- resentment, you name it � but NONE of it is good. I don�t know that I will ever untangle them, but the A and her hospitalization are pulling at the ends of the threads and the knots are impossibly impenetrable and I am suffocating. I could deal with one or the other, but both is too much.

I�m not as bad as you think I am, nor am I as good as I can be.

I�m not trying to justify anything, nor is this a pity party. This post is pure pain poured out in the written word.

I'm so scared.

Not trying to justify yourself?

What do you call the pity party that you are continuously throwing yourself?

My goodness SW...I read Vibrissa's rant the other day and I came this~~~>|| close to quoting it and agreeing with her wholeheartedly!!!

I'm not sure if you know, but...
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I am a Former Wayward Wife...

Does it shock you that I agree with Vibrissa? That *I* hate WSs too? It's true. I was a VILE and EVIL creature during my affair - I mean truly despicable - cruel - callous - selfish - every bad adjective that you can think of, I was that...

That is NOT who I am today though...So when I read "WS" here, it does not occur to me that anyone would be talking about me, because I am not a WS...So why would I be offended? I know firsthand that a WS is a bad, bad egg - I walked that mile...

My fruits today show me to be a very good person, but the fruits I was producing during my affair show CLEARLY that I was evil and vile...That's the truth - the truth doesn't offend me...

What is true about you TODAY, SW? Are you different today than you were while committing adultery?

I gotta tell you that I always get a big laugh out of new people that land here fresh out of their affairs shouting from the rooftops that Mel is a hater of all those that have ever committed adultery...For 2 reasons: (1) Mel has it prominently displayed in her signature that she is happily recovered with her FWH...and (2) She and I are close friends and talk on the phone very regularly and have met in person more than once...Kinda blows to bits the theory that she hates all FWSs, kwim?

Mel has personally counseled me many times when I've been upset about this or that by saying..."But Mrs. W, what is true about you TODAY? Who are you TODAY?" or some other variation of "Is that the truth?/What is the truth?"...

Mind you she has also LAUGHED her head off at me for being OH SO OFFENDED when another member here [Piojitos] said long ago that he felt that a FWW was the same as a Sasquatch because he had never seen either one in person...I was SO MAD about that! And it totally and completely cracks me up today!!! Pio is hilarious...What Pio said wasn't about me, just as what Vibrissa said wasn't about you - Remember that self-centeredness run amok is what got us into affairs in the first place, eh? Btw, in case you are curious, Pio and his wife have recovered their marriage and I know that he's now seen a FWW - I do hope he still hasn't seen a Sasquatch though! It takes a while to stop identifying yourself as a WS - I have great hope that you will get there, but it starts with laying down arms...complete honesty with yourself...humility...

So settle SW ~ This whole recovery deal can only happen if you come at it with a HUMBLE HEART - You want to feel peace? Own it ALL - head bowed, on your knees - religious or not - ask to be "sweetly broken and wholly surrendered" as SMB would put it...No defenses...No buts...There is great empowerment in personal responsibility, SW...

Peace,

Mrs. W

And SW, sometimes when we are feeling angry and defensive what we really need is a hug...sometimes a hug can help us get to a place of humility...So SW, for you~~~>

Keep coming back - conflict is better than withdrawal...

Mrs. W

I am a terrible handler of WSs. I never 'see' it as Melody or other vets do. That is until I read Mel's posts or Vibs...or Mrs. Wondering....then I'm like 'ah. Yes.' Ususally.

Maybe I had a WW mindset in my marriage. Maybe I totally 'get' how easy it would be to have an affair when you are dealing with a jerk of a husband.

I'm thankful *I* didn't have the affair....and judging from my WXH's treatment of me over an incident in our marriage that was NOT me being WW, I know my life would have been a living hell had I lost the moral high ground....so I totally 'get' how Sadwife feels.....I wish I had divorced my now XH 15 years ago....except I wouldn't have ds...so let's say 10 years ago.

I know it is not very MBerish..but I am not sure some of you get how bad it can be in a dsyfunctional marriage.

((((sadwife)))

p.s. You still should not have committed adultery.

Saddest,

You have me confused a bit, and in the process of confusing me I think you are confusing yourself.

No one here can deal with or adequately address your issues with your Mother. No one here can deal with or adequately deal with your failure to defend your boundaries.

BUT...we can deal with your affair and what it has done to you and your H. We can deal with your marriage as it stands NOW and offer advice for you to make it better. We can deal with your uncertainty about what to do.

It seems to me you are mixing two problems and to my mind that would be like you trying to defend two separate cases in the same court room at the same time. NOt very productive and often counter-productive.

You need to see a professional about your issues with your mother. You may need to see one to understand that you have not established boundaries for yourself.

But you need to see or use the Harleys to provide you marriage counseling. You are coming apart at the seams right now and I believe it is because you are trying to address deep seated issues with your mother who is struggling herself due to medical issues, while trying to address your marriage and the damage done to it by your H's treatment of you and your own affair.

Please for your own sake address them separately.

I find it interesting that you say You don't have to accept the lesson Saddest. You don't have to react or behave like your mother, and you certainly don't have to accept behavior that mimic's your Mother's. These are choices you must make and no one makes them for you. You decide what is acceptable to you and what is not.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

You see, I find it incredible that MrsW was ever a WW. That's how far different she is from one now.

I could still compare her to Hitler, because her acts today define her, just as his did up until his death. He never repented and made compensation. She did. She now "does" MB every day of her life.

Sounds like justifing to me.

Hi there, I am trying to understand how you feel about all that is happening in your life and how you are thinking things through.....I can see that your feelings for your mother and your husband and the control issues you feel with the two of them. You feel you have to protect yourself from both of them......look you can't change who your mother is/was.....you need to understand that she did what she did because that is all she knows how to do because of what she has learned. Just accept her for who she is and don't feel any responsibility for that yourself.....look at you, you are successful despite her.....
You are a mother and wife despite how she treated you......
Open up communication with your husband and develop a love for him, look at him and don't tangle all your feelings when you look at him.....just work on little things, feel comfortable with them, take them just for what they are, a smile, a touch.......a quiet moment together, a hug and build on that.......one minute at a time.......I don't think you are a bad person, just a lost soul that is afraid to let anyone in anymore.........you do the right thing and that will ease your mind and you know you can't control anyone else, but you will have the knowledge that you have made the right decisions and you will have peace within.......
The best feelings in the world are free, love, honesty.......faith........peace......everything else means nothing........you made mistakes, forgive yourself and start fresh and work on being a wonderful wife, mother, be proud of your accomplishments......forget all the negatives that you are focusing on.......you don't have to continue this way of thinking...........do you

SadW, I am glad that you see the benefit in posting here. Problem is, you can't just post. You need to do the work off of the boards. The posts made here by the vets and the rest of us, are made to make you think and examine yourself. You still are resistant to answering any questions. You need to answer questions so you will HAVE to examine yourself more closely. DON'T be afraid if you start to cry, scream, get angered or smile(although I think laughing and smiling will take a while) when you are trying to answer the questions. We aren't asking the questions for US, they are for YOU. They are meant to make you examine yourself more closely. You need to learn who you are. THIS is what we mean about working on your side of the fence.

I, myself, have not been in a dysfunctional marriage but I most definitely saw one first hand. My father was extremely physically abusive while I was growing up. He almost killed my mother twice. He was abusive to all of us. I would wake up some mornings with my mother hiding in my closet as my Dad raged because my mom slept in and he was late for work. A MODEL FOR DYSFUNCTIONAL.

My Mom began her affair in June 2008. She moved in with her OM in Aug 2008. She ended it in May 2010 when she moved back in with my Dad. I don't let her get away with telling me how my dad was horrible to her and how horrible she felt. I KNOW it. I LIVED it. Thing is, she could have left before. Finally, one day, she said to me, "I am afraid to live alone." You see, THAT'S ONE reason she didn't leave before. But why did she go back? If my Dad was so horrible, what reason did she have? She answered me with this, "Because I love him." My parents are struggling. I have suggested MB, they just won't bite. Will they make it? Who knows? BUT, it is up to them and I have my OWN healing to deal with.

SadW, I believe that the feelings you are experiencing are good. You are trying to examine your life. Where we WON'T let you go is into baling OTHERS. When you look at something look at it through YOUR actions and YOUR choices. Afterall, you can only control what YOU do/say/act like.

MB is about a lot of self examination. You need to figure out how you act in a relationship and how you SHOULD act. Examine yourself more closely. Hey, I got an idea. You are a lawyer. Pretend that you are a witness and you are asking yourself questions on the witness stand. You know what "laws of relationships" you need to follow(MB). Would you let a "witness" get away with deflecting? You know how to do this, just do it to yourself.

I too felt like you needed a hug. I am just glad that you have decided to stick around, for now. Conflict is better than withdrawal. MB in ever facet of life. DrH is a GENIUS.

SadW:

I am going to take a different tack with you.

Your not vile or evil. You did eveil and vile things, and now, your not going to, are you?

Things that have worked to protect you, from your mother, and your Husband, I believe, are being revealed to you as NOT WORKING.

And that is tough to learn. Now wife deserves to have wine thrown in her face. No spouse deserved to be cheated on. They are both crimes against another, but the score keeping doesn't help anyone.

Your mother is lying in a hospital bed, and you can't find it in yourself to CALL HER and ask her how she is doing. Becasue she may be evil to you. That is P/A behavior right there. Your withholding the affection/concern/care that could COMOFRT your mother in this time of her need. Yet, becasue of what you THINK her reaction might be, you do NOT reach out.

Your mother learned how to push your buttons to get what she wanted.

Your Husband learned to push these same buttons.

Move your buttons. You don't have to react in the same ways, and change the behaviors that have so twisted up your lives.

You are worthy of support, respect and love. You deserved to get them from your mother, and husband. Unfortunately, you did not, and you did not learn what the coping mechanisms to deal with it might be until Just LEarning posted some of them to you.

When JL Posted that you shouldn't allow these behaviors, you recited your list of the wrongs that your H perpetrated against you. But you TOOK IT. So it worked for your H. It didn't FOR YOU, because you built up YEARS of resentment and anger over it. YOU KNEW that something was wrong, but you had NO WAY of determining a way out.

JL has provided that way out. So have many others around here. But if comes down to YOU establishing boundaries with these other people that are comforable to you, and them. They might not LIKE the fact that you are acting differently, and that thier methods no longer work, but that is ok. This too, shall pass.

So, call your mother. If she wants to fight, you don't have too. Change the subject. Or let her talk about all the things wrong with her medically, and just listen.

I do not think you should go up there, as the emotional toll would be too great, and your still learning new ways to do things. You need to get into better practice of these new behaviors.

SadW: Many here continue to help you becasue you are slowly, slowly getting it. This is a marathon. There is only room for 30 people in Rome right now. Keep building.

LG