You are jealous of the WW's whose BH's are Plan Aing them? Really? Did you ever stop for one tiny moment and think how that sounds? Did you ever stop to think for one tiny moment the torture that is for the spouse who is left with a cheater for a spouse? You are jealous?

So you are scared. We are all or have all been scared. I am getting close to 2 years of this and I am still terrified every time he does something nice because he might be hiding something else or every time he doesn't because he might be cheating once again. Another will kill me. We are all scared so don't talk to us like you are the only one who is experiencing such pain and discomfort.

I think you are not going to do it. I think you get it but I think you would rather leave devastation in your wake than make things right. There are people who do those kinds of things, GM was once one of them. I think this thread is now triggering me too hard and I will stay out of it. I feel so terribly sorry for your BH and you know what? I feel sad for you. Still, once again I feel sad for you. This is all such a no brainer that you with all your intellegence can easily get it but you just simply cannot or will not do it.

**edit**

fm, your post is rude and insulting to people who have tried to help both you and sw. It is insulting to the BSs that you have harmed and to repentant WSs.

This post shows me that you have no sense of horror at what you did to your BS, and neither do you think any WS should feel horror. You do not take either Dr Harley's or the BS's word for what the trauma feels like; if it feels worse than rape or the death of a child, then that is their choice to feel that way.

How dare you.

You seem to be here to defend WSs. In your view stated above, the BS "had some responsibility too" ...I cannot follow your logic for why. You seem to be saying that they are responsible because they married the WS. Not only is this illogical; you seem to have learned nothing from your time here.

You tell sw "don't allow your husband to do that to his life". So she not only imposes an affair for him to deal with emotionally; according to you she has the right to tell him for how long and in what way he must deal with it.

You will never become a "vet', however many posts you make, with the support for waywardness that you are giving.

The BSs and reformed FWS here are not lunatics, and we have no intention of "wearing you down". We are interesting in helping people recover their marriages from affairs. Every time you attempt to impose anti-MB views on anyone other than yourself, we will tell them why your advice is wrong. You can believe anything you like, and run your marriage and control your H's recovery in any way you like, but you will not be allowed to endorse waywardness unchallenged on here.

As a former wayward, I am astonished to see the incredible level of self-pity and self-justification expressed by some of these waywards like SW and FM. What is the point in coming to MB, if it is to argue and deny MB insights, experience, and knowledge? The self-proccupation is so clear, as was my own, which I am still struggling to discard, and it is an illness pure and simple. We are all born totally self-centered, and growing up and becoming an adult involves overcoming this. Yet, how many people, like myself, manage to grow up intellectually, but emotionally remain like newborns, completely preoccupied with our own wants and needs and even thoughts? It is stunted maturity, which is an illness, and it is destroying most marriages and creating a society that is ill with greed and quest for profit and self-validation. Could it be that the depression of some of these waywards is merely the shock and unhappiness of suddenly realizing that the world does not center around them, that being married is actually a forfeiture of self-need to the needs of the marriage? To read the comments of these waywards is not only to look in a mirror and see the ugly truth about who I was, but reveals that these folks are like children having a temper tantrum after being corrected by responsible parents. I have written a couple of long posts appealing to the brain of SW, as have others, but really it can be summed up more effectively by two words of advice. Grow up. That's it. For some, that requires a 2X4.

SugarCane

Excellent post.

There is nothing more deadly to the recovery of a marriage, especially with a foggy wayward, than kid gloves and allowing avoidance of responsibility. That includes the necessary 2x4's to bust through the fog and holding one accountable for the mistakes they have made. If someone does not want guidance they should not be here, there are other places where they can commiserate. IMO I rarely see anything harsh enough to warrant a response like FM's. FM's response just points out how difficult it is to make headway without remorse. No guidance will be accepted, either kind or harsh, when one can blame shift so easily.

Sadeest wife

I'm FWW. Please look at you. When I first came here, I didn't really understand what the people were telling me about how much my H was hurt - I was too angry with him.

Everyone was saying the same thing to me, so I guessed that there must be something in it.

All I could think about was how I missed the friendship, the company the conversation and the attention.

I wanted to lose that - I wanted to give my M a chance, so I tried to push it from my mind and it took months and months - wasn't the OM that i missed, just what i got from the A.

Some posters posted to me and reflected my feelings - they said "I know you feel this right now but you need to put it to one side" and some have done this to you.
You feel and it IS valid, because you do feel it. But try to see it form the outside too, try looking in.

These posters got through to me and I was able to appreciate that what I was feeling was what I was feeling, but what I had to get on and do was try to change things for the better.

Have you read the sections on how As start?

Reading this was the thing that most helped me turn my thoughts around - when I realised why it happened it was easy to do the undoing. The section explains it in a non-judgemental and non-accusatory way that helps to understand and is then motivating to turn things around.
How Affairs Start

**edit**

Stop disrupting this thread!!

FM, the OP on this thread asked you to stay off of it. Since you are big on posting with "respect" to waywards, maybe you should resepct her wishes?

I am not even going to attempt to answer for SugarCane, she is perfectly capable of doing this herself. HOWEVER I will respond to what you stated about my post. I will start it by adding your last statement in the post I am responding to.

My bold added.

Odd that you seem not to apply that to yourself FM. You said this, That is what you took from this comment, in paragraph, from my response to SW.
It says things much differently seen as a whole than what you refer to as an inhumane, defining statement. As seen in the previous posts to SW from me you will see it in a trend from helping and encouraging and believing she will make it to dropping when the points have been shifted and changed to suit her needs with regularity.

How dare I what?

Please stop disrupting this thread with personal agendas. If you can help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts, then feel free to post. If not, please refrain from posting!

Hi SW,

Well how are you doing now. Did any time away help you to focus and recharge?

Ya know what, you have seemed a little edgy. But am not going to criticise you at all. I just hope that this time away - w/o regard to a few negative comments from a few here - have helped. The point is really some get edgy here because they preceive you as resistant. The advice is in line with MB, but as expressed by some it is a formula approach. I absolutely hope you come back and participate, and compromise your seemingly staunch approach. This is your marriage and no one else's here.

That is all I can say to you, except for continuing to learn and try, and of course with your H's support. By way, I did have my W here last two days, and I took a risk in that, but I wanted to.

Just simply, good luck and prayers, and do not go away from here or your M, unless you decide it is in your best interest.

Tom

SW has flown the coop and apparently given up on her marriage. So sad, another family destroyed by adultery.

Oh, no, she hasn't flown the coop. She has just given up on her own work on her own thread. But at least she's consistent in taking digs at others who have tried - in good faith - to help her recover personally and potentially maritally.

I'm sorry, SW, but you have so many resources at your disposal that many would kill to have. And you are squandering every last one of them with your pride and your refusal to consider any other perspectives on this.

Yo V!


Both acquired and intelligence. She was beginning to get it I thought.

SW, if you read this I have something to say that might help YOU, your marriage as well, but this is for you and for your comfort and your future.

I find myself in a similar situation only from the BS side. I have to reach out, work the lessons and I do not want to. I would never have had all these problems to correct if GM had not created the unchangeable environment he did in our marriage. I would never have to do this if he could have just admitted that he had a problem and not lied his way through all the therapists for 20+ years. We could have nipped our problems in the bud in the very beginning but now we have almost 30 years of bad habits to correct. I am in your shoes except from the other end. I am terrified of putting myself out there because of what he has done to me. It is slowing us down as I stick in my toe and run away again. You do the same. Neither of us will get through this until we do that enough to get comfortable then move on to our ankles. I am afraid that the moment I get in a little further GM will tie rocks to my ankles and shove me in the deep end. You may feel scared like that too, GM does as well but good grief. You two built the pool and stole all the floaties.

The biggest difference here is that you and GM took the cheaters way out. I know what I have to do but I am one stubborn woman. I will be damned if I am going to put myself at risk with this man. However, as hard as it is it is what I must do. Your H will need to do that as well but you can't expect him to even begin until you have proven yourself a healed ex cheater who wants him more than any lover or even over your own comfort for the time being.

SW, I don't even know why I bothered to write this down except that I think you are so close but you are terrified. I guess I just wanted you to know that it is OK to feel that way but it is the cowards way out if as the one who caused this devastating harm to your H and M you can't take the risk now to heal it.

You do not strike me as a coward. Neither did GM but he was for most of his life, he just told himself he was the bravest knight at the round table. Fantasy. Woman up my dear, pull up your big girl panties and take the risk. At least you KNOW what the risk is. Your BH and I never even saw it coming.

I wish I had time to go through and individually apologize on each thread to each poster here who I offended with my comment to Rizo, but today is laundry day... which at Saddest's house is a bigger deal than it sounds.

It was in no way my intention to discount everyone's contribution to helping me or Rizos. For me, it has been helpful to narrow my focus -- Mark1952 talks a lot about the mental processes around A's. JL talks a lot about how to formulate a plan, and GloveOil gives a male perspective plus he's funny sometimes which is a nice break. I decided to narrow my research down to three because I was bouncing around like a pin ball -- not because I don't think others have equally meaningful things to say. I read posts from each of them on other threads for for an hour or so a day and save those that I want to contemplate further or want my H to read at some point on my desktop plus I keep up with those posters I think of as "my people."

Mrs.V -- I have read and will continue to follow your thread -- I'm so sorry you were offended. Personally, I think you should post more -- FWW's are hard to ignore.

Tom -- what a dear man you are. Your W is lucky -- I hope she knows it.

DWG -- thanks for your input. I do have some thoughts for you and GM, but I will post them on your threads. There are some similarities between our M's and I have read both of your threads, although I never could find GM's original thread where he evidently got hit by about as many 2x4's as me.... Actually, it was something on your thread which triggered my acting vs. being a person of integrity epiphany -- an innocuous comment about sheet music if you are wondering.

This will be my last post on my thread. The reason I am not going to post my story anymore is that I believe that the path to fixing my M has to start with fixing me, and when I talk about myself and what I am thinking and feeling here, the reaction is often negative -- I'm selfish or lying or whatever. Not always, but often. Because I have a history of severe, clinical depression, I have to be mindful of adopting negative thought patterns which are often reinforced here, plus, as silly as it sounds, I never got over the whole evil/Hitler thing.

I have concluded that it is not enough for me to act like a person with integrity -- I have to actually be that person (thanks GM). And that means living consciously. I have to check in with myself constantly to see what I am feeling and thinking, evaluate the validity of those thoughts and feelings, and decide on the right course of action. Checking in with myself does not come naturally to me -- it is exhausting and exhilarating at the same time.

It means changing my default setting from "what do I say to keep everyone else in the room reasonably happy" to "what do I say that is true and constructive." It means challenging my H on his AO to the kids instead of apologizing to them for him. It means crowding him a little on talking about the A because I am confident that is the right thing to do. It means not assuming I know what he is thinking and having the courage to ask. It means no more hiding.

It is incredibly hard to stop hiding.

And yes, it means healing my H, but I can't do that from a position of weakness and too often I have come away from this forum feeling weak, depleted and inadequate to the task. I have to maintain the energy required to live consciously and be strong enough to be unflinchingly honest.

I have no idea whether my M can be repaired which I view as a distinct issue from healing my H which is my obligation regardless. Some days I think yes, others, no, and some days I really could care less, but I don't have to decide that right now. Right now all I have to decide is what I'm going to do today.

I do know that if it is going to happen, it is on me to lead the way.

I will leave you with a funny story -- or what I think is a funny story. My MIL was here and took me and my H out to dinner. My MIL has been to pretty much every country in the world. OM is from another country, and naturally my MIL started telling stories about her travels to his country. I could not get her off the subject, and I saw my H getting smaller and smaller and shrinking away from the table. So I put my hand on his leg and scooted over next to him. She keeps talking. Hand moves up the leg. She kept talking, oblivious to the fact that I was frantically trying to change the subject. By the end, I basically had my hand on his crotch, thinking "see where adultery got you Saddest? Sitting at a table with your MIL with your hand on her son's crotch? Isn't this special."

Finally, my H left the table and I was able to tell my MIL to not talk about that country as OM was from there. Asked my H after dinner what I could do in the future to help him through triggers and he said he didn't want to talk about it .... long pause.... but a hand on his crotch was welcome anytime.

You do have to laugh sometimes.

Thanks to you all -- my decision to stop posting my story here doesn't mean that I'm not still learning.

Saddest,

I think youjust learned a very important lesson in your story. Your H often doesn't want words he wants actions And while that particular action was very...shall we say personal. It was noticed and obviously welcomed.

What you may have missed is that you are the ONLY person that can do that. Just as you are the ONLY person that touch his soul. Saddest the part you have not gotten is that to your H you are special and you have special entry into his life. Make use of it.

You might want to go over the Hitched's thread. She is struggling with the concept of boundaries. We are having an interesting discussion that you might also find helpful, if only because her struggles might trigger some ideas for your own situation.

God Bless,

JL

That is a great post, SW. I have sensed from the beginning that your difficulties are very much like mine, which is why I have followed your thinking on this thread so closely. Yes, it is about hiding and doing and saying things to make others feel good rather than being honest. That is it exactly, and yes, it is extremely hard to learn new patterns of thought, make this conscious, and change it. I have one or more, usually several, lapses every day. Each of them makes me want to hit myself with a 2X4, when DWG calls me on it. There was another one just moments ago. Markos pointed out to me in a fantastic post that I copied and read every day, that those are controlling behaviors. It is an attempt to control what others are feeling, and for DWG, it is an enormous love buster when I do that, as it would be for anyone. What is crazy is that it has taken me 62 years to grasp this. In my mind, those things had been justified by me, because of the illusion that it is something good, that the motive is generous and kind-hearted. In reality, it contributed to enormous problems in relationships from the beginning, especially my marriage. DWG is very much someone who deeply resents being controlled, and I have been causing this resentment in her from day one of our marriage and continued to do it relentlessly for 26 years. I am still being caught at it nearly every day, but it is gradually become conscious, and so I am starting to gain more and more control over it. It is a long journey, and it is not easy with mental habits like that.

My original thread was called "What do I do?", and the URL is http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2195605&page=1


All the time I was ruining DWG's life (her screen name was different in the earlier threads), I was a medical professional practicing my specialty at the highest level, universally respected by my peers, serving in leadership roles, and being treated like some kind of celebrity or model of greatness during the day. In my private life, I was everything wrong that an adult could be. The fact that I am transforming and have a chance to recover our marriage and that DWG has managed to give me this chance is nothing short of a miracle. Needless to say, she was pummeled by the veterans and BS's on this forum for even giving me this chance. She got the 2X4 treatment, also. I understand why. Other than true love, I cannot understand how DWG could have undertaken the kind of journey through pain that she has taken by not not divorcing me and trying to make this work. It is partially a level of stubbornness that is the stuff of legends. From my standpoint, I would rather die a thousands painful and horrifying deaths than ever hurt her again.

Now that you know my story, it would be worth going back and re-reading some of DWG's and my posts to you. From your last post, I really think you have a chance to succeed.

SW,

What you have done with this post is what you need to keep doing. 2x4's come to all of us in various forms for various reasons. When we are being stupid we get told because at the point where we all are there is very little room for mistake. "People change so quickly here" to quote my favorite movie to quote.

You make great strides and then you come apart and post about it. That is when we come hard at you, partly it is meant to keep you going on the straight and narrow path and show you how very close the ledge is.

Post how you feel, that is fine but when you are on this particular path it is necessary to also post what you are doing about it or ask what you can do about it. Sometimes your style leads people to feel you are sinking and not at all interested in learning better how to deal. You are all over the map, understandable. Try changing your posting skills a bit and do not ever be afraid of sounding stupid or inept. We are all stupid and inept as we figure it out.

One of the things I learned, as I am sure you saw in my thread, was that I needed to go on a personal journey to learn my own mistakes, my own coping methods and what was really going to work for me going forward. For you being the one who lost boundaries you will have to do it as well but it will have to come later after you heal your H. For now you have to be able to put that all aside and focus. No matter how you feel you must focus on him. Your time will come but by then you will have to look at it an entirely different way than you do now. You will get to that point later. Wanting to fix things that he does to you is understandable but you upped the ante and he has called you (if I got that right) and you have to produce your bad hand and start again with a good one.

This is all hard, every one of us has it hard and you will as well. Accept that, accept that everything here is said with care even if it hurts. Sometimes a 2x4 is the only way when someone continues to not get the points being made. Those points would not be made if they were not important.

I would hope that you will not stop posting. I really do not want to see that happen. Follow those who help you the most but do not allow yourself not to benefit from what they might say to you personally. If some of the rest of us bother you then it might be because there is truth that you do not want to accept but need to. Take it that way and know it is meant with all good intentions. Please. You have so much potential and there is such a good chance for you to heal this and have a wonderful life with someone you loved enough to marry.

About the Hitler posts...I think if you can just let yourself drop that now and look back at it later you will see that it was not a personal comparison but a comparison of presentation of ideas. Could you let that slide for now and take our word for it that none of us saw you as Hitler, it was just not personal at all?

Your situation triggers the heck out of me and I am not certain why yours in particular but there is also something there that keeps me coming back and waiting, waiting for you to have that Aha moment and run with this. I know GM feels the same about your posts, he is writing another tome to you that will either precede my tome or follow it. Poor you .

I am nowhere near a vet here and nowhere near knowing enough to actually provide a lot of guidance, I just feel compelled to help in any small way I can. Whatever the sheet music comment was (I can't recall that at all and will have to go look for it to satisfy my curiosity) I am glad it lead you somewhere.

Sorry for all the long posts. GM and I both like to talk and discuss and think and talk some more so I guess everyone here will just have to decide to read them or not at least they do not have to live with us (we will talk you to death).

Please do post. You are so smart and so strong that I can't imagine that this will not work if you can just finally relax with the program (hard to do sometimes I know) and work it. I hate to see such a long and productive marriage break down any more. Think about it please.

Great post, DWG! (I mean: Yo, DWG!)

SW - While I disagree with the idea of taking a complete posting hiatus, (see DWG's post), I do urge you to re-read your thread. I think you'll see some of the ideas you expounded upon in your last post, and hopefully you can track your progression.

Also, a quick aside re: your comment on Rizos's thread. I don't think anyone feels left out of the praise, so to speak, and I would bet good money that your list of helpful posters is shared by many. The problem was in your dismissal of everyone else. "Background noise" and advice to ignore all the rest was what was insulting. It may seem mean and nitpicky, but this is precisely the kind of thinking (disrespectful judgments, opening your mouth without thinking of consequences, etc.) that MB can and does address. Something to look forward to!

So, last thing. I agree with DWG, too, about the forum posters coming back for more here - I think you can get it. So let's go, lady!