I second that. When you are sacrificing whatever you want and your needs to meet the needs of another, you will fail your marriage. Your sacrifice builds up resentment in yourself and you can become unattractive and boring, you get stuck in the friend zone. My wife likes it when I say, no I don't want to do that lets POJA something else. The hard part is I have to be honest with myself to decide if I am sacrificing my needs for my wife.

When you and your WW giver and taker are satisfied by each other, and needs are met by each other then you will fall in love.

Babe, I think it's hot when you are firm with me and you don't just do what ever I like even though you don't want to, you put your foot down and become assertive!

Did I mention I though it was sexy when you were yelling at that guy for leaving even though the cops told us to wait until the ambulance come?

BTW

<--Wheel's wife

And when things don't go her way, will she know how to deal with it in a healthy, non-destructive manner?




Thank you, Jim. I now need to ruminate a bit...

Well last night was a rough night. I went fishing and came home with a couple of real beauties but when I walked in the empty house and laid them on the counter it hit me that there was nobody there to brag to about my feat. Nobody to recount every detail of the fight, every jump and run the fish made and nobody but myself to cook the fish for and that's when the loneliness set in.

jtld, I haven't made a decision yet or should I say I made a decision not to make a decision at least until I can do so with a clear head. Still feel that this is over no matter what, but the wound is still raw so I'll give it some time. W told me she won't pressure me but she sends me an email at least once a day. Many just say things like I love you more than anything, but some get into how we can fix this etc.

As for the entitlement she felt and feels and my enabling of it, what you folks say is right on the money. I don't think anyone is attracted to a wimp even if he's only a wimp to his W. My son found an e-book online and downloaded it to help him out with his own girl situation. At first glance it looks like one of those stupid do this and the girls will fall all over you type things, but the author does make some good points. I read quite a bit of it last night and this guy may be on to something. I won't name the book or author because the point of it is to increase a man's dating and he advocates dating multiple people, etc. (I need to have a talk with my son about that) but he drives home one point that does make a lot of sense.

It is quite simply that there is a fundamental difference between a woman liking (or even loving) a man and a woman being attracted to a man. Attraction is a more basic emotion and, while we can get a girl to like us pretty easily by being nice, complimenting her, etc., etc., doing those things doesn't create attraction. It's so easy to fall into the "friend" category and be liked or loved but not be attracted to. Strong, funny, confident, a little unpredictable and not "giving them their own way" is his mantra. I wonder if that's what happened with me, that the love may have been there but the attraction died. Something to think about but how do you balance that with meeting your W's emotional needs?

tlc, I think there are several things going on here and you are confusing causes and effects and believe that catering to your wife caused the affair. I don't believe it did. What I think led to the affair were a) her lack of boundaries and b)the time spent apart while you were delivering pizzas.

Certainly making sacrifices as you did was not good for your marriage. Sacrifice causes resentment [in the giver] and it creates false expectations of entitlement in the reciever. That is how I see your wife. She has a very strong entitlement attitude.

While I think it is good to recognize all this, it is very bad to go to the opposite extreme and label this as "co-dependency" and act accordingly. I hope that is not where this counselor is leading you, because that mentality is very destructive to marriages. [non alcoholic marriages, that is]

The point I am getting to is that you and your wife can fall back in love again if you eliminate sacrifice, meet each others needs and most importantly -----> spend 20+ hours per week together giving each other undivided attention.

Just to side comment on this. How old is your son? If he's young - still in High School then it is in best interest to date many people. He should be clear and upfront about this with the women he dates of course. High School is a great time to date and get to know many different girls in a relatively safe envrionment. He should date many many women, get to know them, find out what he likes, find out what he wants. I am a huge advocate for dating unexclusively.

Our society puts too much pressure on young people to have 'relationships' and find 'the one' as soon as possible. These relationships also have a high pressure to have sex, probably sooner than either person is ready for. A teen's mind is still developing. They don't have the reasoning skills of an adult. They shouldn't be having adult relationships. They don't have the tools or maturity to navigate them properly. Read Writer1's story over in the 101 forum for an extreme example of what can go wrong in this situation.

Your son should be exclusively dating when he's ready for marriage. Until then he should be out getting to know as many women as possible. I personally believe that the current model of dating for young people is what sets them up for an attitude of divorce. You get into a serious relationship with someone, because that's what you're 'supposed' to do. Then when things aren't working out - you bail and find someone else who is better at meeting your needs. Then all of a sudden you have to change perspectives when you marry - because you can't just bail once you've married. But you've already established the habit of bailing on serious relationships when they aren't working out.

DH was like that in high school - he never wanted a relationship, he was clear on that point, and dated many girls and got to know them and know what he liked and wanted. When he was ready for marriage is when he decided to date exclusively. I, on the other hand, went from relationship to relationship. I envy him his experience now.

As long as your son is clear with the girls he sees that he isn't dating them exclusively, that he wants to get to know them but itsn't interested in a serious relationship - there's nothing wrong with that, and this is probably the only time he can really do that.

That is excellent advice, Vibrissa. That is exactly what Dr Harley advises. He tells people to date as many people as possible in order to find a good match. The more people you date, the more likely you are to find a suitable partner.

Melody, the counselor and I have talked a lot about dependancy but more along the lines of my own personal dependancy on the approval of my W. She (the counselor) is very big on giving all you have to a M but because you sincerely want to give all, not because you feel you have to. Paraphrasing her, if you give out of duty or because you feel you should or because you are seeking approval, it's coming from the wrong place and will lead to imbalance. Basically, do it because you truly want to, not because you have to, and I think I felt I had to in my quest for her approval, admiration and ultimately her love. Kind of like trying to buy her love. I guess the first step is to find out why I seemed to need so badly to please her at any and all costs. Next session is Monday so more to explore.

Now I have another dilemma. My sister turned 45 yesterday and she is throwing herself a party tonight. She has a club rented and about 60-80 people invited and she throws the best parties. I have been looking forward to it for a long time and I think I need it now more than ever. To cut loose, get smashed, sing bad (very bad) karaoke and just laugh all night long and forget about my troubles. W called me this morning and asked me if we were still going. I said "WE are not going, I am". She told me she was going anyway and that I had to save one dance for her. I don't even know why she'd want to go since a large number of the people there will be extended family and most of them know what she did. Sis doesn't want to tell her she can't come. W said she's ready to face the judgements and this can be a mini-date and the first step to finding "us" again. I almost wanted to throw up. I don't even know if I want (and I'm actually pretty certain I don't) "us" but she says she's determined to "win me back" It's almost funny that for so many years I did everything to please her and now it's as if things have done a 180 and she's the one doing anything at all to please (but she won't stay away tonight to please me).

Vibrissa, I have to be honest and say I never looked at it that way but you make an excellent point and, ironically enough, the same point the author of the book makes and that is to date as many women as possible, even concurrently, to find "the one". I was ready to talk to him about what he read and drive home the points of loyalty and commitment, etc. but maybe I have to re-think that. What you say makes so much sense but it goes against what I believe on a more basic level. I guess at his age and the place he is in life it does make a lot more sense to take your approach. Thanks for that!

This is what I was afraid of and I would watch out for this type of destructive advice. Let me ask you a simple question: do you not feel a "duty" to make your spouse happy? Because if you don't then you are what Dr Harley calls a freeloader in marriage. A happy marriage is contingent upon 2 people who feel it is their "DUTY" to make the other happy.

Nor is there anything wrong with wanting approval from your spouse. It would be unhealthy to seek DISAPPROVAL from your spouse. What is unhealthy is when you make sacrifices and endorse destructive behavior to seek approval. That is what is unhealthy. But all of us want the approval of our spouses.

Folks who only do what comes naturally are freeloaders and their marriages don't last:


I would ask you to also read about how the "co-dependency movement" is ruining marriages. Most marriage counseling is so destructive to marriages that it is no wonder they have a very high failure rate of 84%. Marriage counselors actually have a higher divorce rate than the general population.

How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages


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There is a time and place for loyalty and commitment: in marriage. Dating is a chance to explore - especially in the teen years as a child is becoming an adult and exploring who they are.

As long as he is upfront and honest with the girl - making it clear that he is dating multiple people and he is only interested in getting to know her as a person. There were a couple of girls that pursued DH in high school for a commitment. He had to be honest with them. It was hard because he did care for them, but in the end it was better for all them involved.

Also, he must not use this as a means to hook up with as many girls as possible and acquire notches on his bed post - Sex is a very serious commitment and act that should be taken on thoughtfully. Honestly I think most teens aren't capable of the responsibility sex requires. Again, see Writer1's story. I'm sure you've already discussed this with him - but it's worth reinforcing.

He has the rest of his life to be committed. Right now is the only time he will get to explore with the safety net of you and other adults who love him to guide him through the exploration.

And interestingly enough - as he discovers himself, and what he wants in a potential mate, the loyalty and commitment will come naturally - because it is motivated by love, not by external, societal pressures to pair off and have a 'relationship'.

My husband has had no problems with commitment and loyalty, because he CHOSE to accept them when he was READY. Not because society and some girl pressured him into getting into a relationship. He had the guidance of loving parents to show him and explain to him what that looked like. When he was ready for it - he accepted it willingly, because he knew he wanted and was ready for a family.

So many issues with committment would disappear if people were actually allowed to explore and commit naturally, when they are ready - as opposed to being forced and pushed into it at an unnatural time in their life.

How can a 16 know what he wants to commit to if he's never even experienced what is out there?

Sorry to write a novel - I just really think our society has it backwards in this issue and it results in so much pain and bad decisions.