Oh, and I suspect the FWWs are hard to ignore because we are the most batty...

I am beginning to think we need a group here, the Yo Yo's!

Sorry for the T/J.

All right, I stand corrected.


Did YOU put HFCS in your breakfast cereal box today, lady??

I most certainly did not! I can not eat cereal while on my diet, I had a pear and two sticks of Weight Watchers string cheese. I seriously avoid HFCS like the plague. Oh but I would die for a good Kashi cereal about now .

YoYo sister! Much better than the YaYa's doncha think?

Isn't that about a divine traveling pants something or other?

*Sigh... Sometimes I get my young girl power movies so mixed up...

SW, consider this a mere preview of what's to come if you stay off of your thread for too long!

We will run amok all over your thread and when you come back you will really be confused!

Come back? Are you kidding? You guys are WAY too entertaining. I cannot remember the last time I saw women interact in a silly, healthy, supportive way. It does my heart good.

But I do have to ask -- what in the world is HFCS? I wanted to figure it out on my own so didn't google but I give up.

High Fructose Corn Syrup silly!

We do play, we like each other and when your life is falling apart there is nothing like the support you can find here. I love these people but have only met a few of them. Still I think I have their backs and they have mine. They also have GM's that is the magic of this place.

See, join us. You would be really fun to have in this place.

I edited out something about smacks but you don't need to hear it all again. Just jump in.

Hahahahaha...All this talk of HFCS and DWG throws in "smacks" and I think of whatever that cereal is, Honey Smacks.

It sounds good right now, actually. As does sleep. I can no longer muster up any funniness! (I can no longer muster up my spelling powers, either, or the strength to actually determine if I did indeed spell that correctly.)

Ugh. I am so tired. You're welcome for that little entertainment right there.

(Yo, DWG! I found sheep to go with your goat!)

Goodnight V!

Sleep well.

Just a thought, goats are very sweet. I would count goats over sheep any old day/night. They give kisses too

Well, just from me, am glad to see you back here because besides being an intellegent person, you do simply seem to care - just maybe a little too reactionary is all...*s*

Anyway, I didn't expect to be up this late but was awoken when Mitzie was hopping on the bed earlier tonight. This isn't that unusual to me because honestly C used to do that too oacasionally. She was a dancer way back in the 60's and even now she gets cramps in her legs even at night and a few times have been awoken with her jumping on the bed or floor during the night trying to relieve them.

Take care.

Tom

I seriously overestimated my ability to go it alone so I'm back for help.

I have an email in to see if SteveH has time tomorrow -- no phone.

1. H evidently stayed up all night ruminating and had a few questions/comments for me this morning before I had my coffee. Never a good idea to talk to me before I have my coffee but I did my best. He asked "how could you do this to me? You must hate me."

That one I was ready for as SteveH told me exactly what to say -- I let me guard down (Steve's words) and didn't maintain my boundaries, the responsibility was totally one hundred per cent mine and I am taking steps to ensure that that never happens again.

And I am -- I'm working JL's core values/boundaries model and its syncing beautifully for me.

WRONG ANSWER. So, so wrong. H got really mad, and kept pressing it but I didn't have anything else that wouldn't suggest that he had some responsibility -- I was mad, I was lonely, I did hate you and wanted to hurt you back, my needs weren't being met etc. So I just sat there. I didn't have a fall back position.

What should I have said?

He asked me if I think often of OM, and I said "not really" which is not true -- I do think of OM. I think he is a complete POSSOB for pursuing me -- which is not to excuse my conduct AT ALL so don't jump on me-- but I do think about what I would like to say/do to him, and fingernails and his face are involved. I didn't tell my H that as it would sound like I was deflecting blame off me onto OM.

What should I have said?

Family went out on a long planned hike and I stayed home as I started throwing up which is what I always do when I get really upset -- there is nothing to be done about it -- 20+ pounds lost since the start of the A. I feel like I ruined everyone's day. How could I have handled this differently? Should I have said let's talk about it later? That didn't seem like the right thing to do.

2. I am physically afraid of H. I don't think he will get physical with me again, but I didn't think he would do it the first time. I got really nervous during the conversation this a.m. -- after a while he moved to hug me and I flinched. Bad message. I can take it -- I'm a pretty tough cookie, but I don't want my sons around if it happens again and they are in the house right now. H initially denied his actions, then said they were understandable and I think it's mean to bring it up. Am I being foggily ridiculous to be concerned? He's only gotten physical with me the one time.

3. At least 80 per cent of the time I think this M is over and I am being disingenuous or dishonest not vocalizing that. I told SteveH that I wanted the M to work because I wanted my best friend back, but I think that may have been revisionist history as I can't think of a time in recent memory when I felt particularly close to H, but that may be revisionist history too. It seems to me in a 25 year M you could cherry pick enough evidence to support either position.

I wonder if my wanting to tell him the M is over is a way to manipulate him into working on it with me?

I don't know how to sort out my motives and feelings or whether anything I am thinking is to be trusted in the slightest. I'm trying to reality check what I say but reality seems elusive at times.

How do you know if you are ever out of the fog? It's only been 30 days NC so I suspect I'm not there.

Was hoping to learn what I needed from 2x4s to other WW's but they seem scarce on the board these days so I am throwing myself on your mercy.

SW -

Just a quick note of encouragement (I guess it qualifies as that...):

This is expected for recovery. There are ups, and there are huge downs, as there should be. (No downs is real cause for concern!)

It's also hugely necessary. I think these are the times when you can choose to learn and grow the most. Most of my "epiphanies" occurred after some pretty low lows on the recovery rollercoaster.

Nothing more to add re: the details of your post - heading out for the day - but will check back in later and see if there's anything I can add that others haven't posited already.

Glad you're posting.

And apparently we done run all them other WWs off! Shoooot, man! (*insert Mel's tobacco-spittin' Texan smiley here*)

SW, that is a tough problem that will not get better for a good while, but the sooner that you do it the right way, the sooner that will come, even it it is a year or two away. It is just starting to really hit him, and you are in for a long journey. You need to do the opposite of what I did for a long time. My inclination was to say things that I thought would help to make DWG recover and feel better at the moment and to understand. That was absolutely the wrong thing, because it was an attempt to control her feelings and reactions. Do not try to explain, because it comes out as an excuse or justification, as there is none. And like me, I know you are prone to cerebralizing everything. It is 100% the wrong thing. His reactions are not really coming from his brain but from his wounded heart. His words and thoughts are only reflections of what is basically a feeling or emotion of pain, betrayal, confusion, and anger. You caused a mortal wound, and your only response can be to acknowledge and validate his feelings and pain and sit there and take it and do not offer excuses or try to change the subject. At other times, work totally on meeting his emotional needs and ignoring your own, which could be many months or even a couple of years. At other moments, when he is not focused on that, invite him to come here and start posting. Nothing will help him more than the advice of the veterans here.

One other thing: Do not confuse the policy of Openness and Honesty with a requirement to give gory details. That was a horrible mistake I made. Ask Dr. Harley about that. There is a certain amount he absolutely must know, but not give details that serve no purpose other than to put images in his head that he will not be able to stop thinking about. If he insists, tell him that you need to ask Dr. Harley some things before answering those. Sometimes, too much honesty is an excuse for not considering the feelings of your spouse. I am sure that others here will want to respond to that.

Saddest,

You asked "What should I have said?" Honesty works. Actually, it is the only thing that works. Anything else will either be found out later (with much damage) or it will have a hollow ring that leaves the BS empty.

So let me offer you are few things to consider OK?

You said

Just what you said, however it was also probably true that the marriage was not in good shape was it? You did not feel involved in the marriage or left out, or whatever. What often a BS is searching for is something they can do, that will make it better. Why? Well my thoughts on the matter are the following. The BS feels betrayed, right? The BS doesn't trust the WS right? So when the WS says it was 100% my fault and essentially, "trust me I will protect you from now on.", the BS is shall we say, "abit sceptical". Often the BS is in a position where they don't want the blame, and don't deserve the blame but they NEED to control the recovery because they don't trust the WS to do so and protect them. See the bind they are in???

So it seems to me that you gave the correct answer about your affair and who's fault it is. However, you needed to go further and explain what you need out of the marriage and what you need from him to make you feel good about being in the marriage from now forward. Does this make sense?

Finally, H getting mad is normal. Wouldn't you be mad if he told you did it because he "wanted to" and it had nothing to do with you?

So you said and did the right thing, and he reacted normally.

Let's get to the next part. You said The honest truth. You do think of OM but not with pleasant thoughts. You would prefer to forget him but you cannot right now. It will come. This won't come as a surprise to him as I am sure he thinks you have OM in your thoughts all of the time and they are pleasant thoughts. He knows you are lying to him. Believe me most BS have a hard time believing anything their WS says. So you might was well tell the truth. You will feel better, you won't have to remember what you said days/weeks/months/years later. Just always tell the truth.

This bring me to the last part. It really is simple, you need to explain your boundaries and particularly about the abuse, physical particularly but even verbal. When you can stand on your own and be ready to enforce your boundaries, you will find honesty much easier to do. When you know your core beliefs, and have assessed your ability to live with or without your H, you have the basis of a good marriage. When he figures out you are only with him because you want to be not because you have to be, you will start to change the dynmaics of this marriage. The same holds for him. He can walk or he can stay, but he has to make that decision and then if he stays he must decide to do so because it is best for him and his happiness and therefore good for your happiness.

It really is simple Saddest, it just is not easy.

Doesn't this sound like circular logic? It sure does and the reason it does is that you two have not done what is said in the Bible. You have not become one. When that happens there is not circular logic because you two become a single point. What hurts him, hurts you. What helps him, helps you. What makes him happy, makes you happy. All of this is true of you as well. With that point of view there is "you go first". It is simply what happy married people do.

This ties nicely to something that Dr. Harley is big on. The POJA. Their should be no sacrifices in a marriage without negotiating a win-win. Why? unrecognized/compensated/appreciated/asked for sacrifices lead to RESENTMENT and that breaks the bond of marriage. I like the old saying
Must go. I hope this helps.

JL

1. The fact you feel that 20% of the time you DON'T think the marriage is over is a GOOD SIGN. (most WW's are 100% sure it will never work again this early out).

2. Sounds like you are getting the hang of the fog a bit. You can't trust your "feelings"...so you are being encouraged here to just take actions trusting that your feelings will follow them. Ignore your feelings...work YOUR plan (MB) and try to get husband on board with developing and working the plan too. You want HIS feelings to follow HIS actions too, right? There are threads herein about how to get a reluctant spouse on-board with the program....generally, as I recall, the biggest selling point to men is "honey, here's a non-religious marital recovery program designed to help us fall back in love AND HAVE MORE SEX pretty much any time you want".

3. The fog takes a lifetime to clear up. Heck...I'm a bs 5+ years out and I'm still foggy about lots of things. The fog is not a bad thing unless and until you convince yourself you're not in it. Realizing such is maturity. We aren't teenagers anymore, we don't know it all and we are OK with that.

Good luck Counselor,

Mr. Wondering

I see this as him to express his feelings of depression, and helplessness to you. Your pre conceived answer did not show him that you understood how he feels. I think his intent was for you to feel his feelings, not get some manufactured bull poop.

I think the best way to handle it would be repeating what he has just said, and if you don't know what he means then repeat what he said and tell him I don't understand. It could go like this:

DH: "How could you do this to me? you must Hate me."
SW: "You think that I hate you so much that I had an affair."

your husband wants to guide the conversation and you follow by repeating what he says in your words until he is done expressing himself. Answer his questions truthfully, do not sit and think of what you will say next.


The truth. The truth will set you free, but not instantly. This is another conversation that he wanted to hear the truth. You should say yes. Then he will most likely ask "Do you think of him more than me?" etc.


You could try to POJA that thing. Long hikes are tough, and there must besomething else you guys could do like shorten it, or go to the park or something. Hold off the hike until you are feeling good.


Does he know that you are afraid of him right now? That sudden movements might scare you? Talk about it with him and ask him to tell you his physical intensions. Like I really want to hug you right now.


You don't have any recent closeness because you removed yourself. The idea is not to focus on what you had, but what you should be having. Try to set stuff up so you can have a better marriage by exercising MB principles.


BOOO! on the manipulation. Let him know that you are afraid about the current state of the marriage. Thats it, nothing else. See if he will follow up, which might be weeks later, he is not on the same time frame as you right now.


You have to determine your feelings in the most basic feelings. Fear, happy, scared, itchy. Don't try to figure out why you feel these things, just let yourself sort out what your basic feelings are.


If you do not know then you are not out of the fog. I would say your actions dictate that they are on a course for a healthy relationship with their spouse, and when you are truly happy with what you have.

The 2x4 folks must have given up on me because I expected to get beat up over that last post.

JL -- please change your screen name. You aren't Just Learning. I am actually reevaluating my position regarding my sons and the military because of you.

He told me his trigger -- I text messaged a friend who recently ended a seven year affair who I hadn't communicated with since I ended mine, updating her on my status (married with no AP), and just checking back in after my month long disappearance. I deleted that text message but then she responded and I didn't delete the response and H saw it and it was clear to him she was responding to something I said -- but what?

I have no idea why I deleted the text to my friend -- reflex? It didn't say anything bad but of course H has no reason to believe that.

I now understand what a fine line I am walking.

Today was to be expected -- I have been Plan A'ing H for a month and he now feels safe enough to start expressing his feelings which makes me feel terribly dishonest as I am 80 percent sure this M is over. I have been going through the motions because it is the right thing to do to try to heal him to honor my core values of honesty and compassion, but I think JL just pointed out to me that if those are my core values, I have to give H a meaningful, honest opportunity to heal me too -- TERRIFYING.

I think I have my head around all of what I need to do and then the RAGE comes rolling back in and I have no where to put it. It's out of the box now -- no putting it back in. Protecting myself against his anger is reflexive -- staying in the room today was a HUGE deal. I used to set my sports watch for three minutes, then leave. Wheels -- great advice on validating his feelings. It will hopefully make him feel better, and it will give me time to think. I hate getting caught flatfooted. I'm not talking about formulating a lie -- just formulating the honest answer said the right way.

I think the opposite of love is indifference, not hate, so the hate I occasionally feel I view as a good thing, but mostly I am indifferent. It's a tricky situation. Hopefully Steve will help me sort it out.