I am glad that you are still around doing what needs to be done.

It is true that what you need to do is just be honest. I understand that you want to make sure that you say the right things, in the right way. I get that. We all want to be understood. It may also be that you want to answer his questions in a way that will not cause him to ask more questions. Your BH is going to sense that you are editing yourself. Just make sure that you don't LB when you tell him what you feel and think and you will be fine. You need to ensure that you are not the cause of your BHs suffering and pain anymore. You need to remember the rules of care and protection as well. Work ALL aspects of MB and you will be a lot better off.

The thoughts that you are having about OM should most definitely be told to your BH. Do you understand why he asked you if you had thoughts about OM? It was to let you tell him that it was safe for him to share that HE is having thoughts about OM. He is thinking about him all of the time. When he wakes up, when he falls asleep. Possibly while he is dreaming. It is becoming a constant and he doesn't know how to turn it off. It isn't a quick fix. It is going to take a lot and there is most likely going to be a lot of resentment on both of your parts. The good folks who have recovered will be able to help you out.

As far as the 2x4's, really there wasn't much of a need for them from that post. You weren't being argumentative and totally fogged out. You are having times of lucidity. It is welcome to see.

I hope you keep learning and I hope you can get your talk with Steve soon. He can most definitely help you out. It is GREAT to see that you were so happy to talk to him because if my WH ever pulls his head outta his azz and wants to reconcile, a phone call to Steve will be a MINIMUM for contact with me.

Saddest,

Just a quick comment. You do know that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc.

When you feel the anger boiling, stop and ask yourself, "What is driving this? What am I trying to accomplish other than protect something?"

If your H starts into the anger cycle, look at him and ask him "Dear, what is it you fear so much that you respond in such anger?" And then just look at him. This should get him thinking abit before he really explodes.

Saddest, your sons could do worse than getting military training. It can be dangerous, but so can many things including doing drugs. Now if you want my recommendation for a career path. Get them into science. That is my true passion.

Hang in there.

JL

saddest,
I have to say I think you are moving forward within yourself, you still have a ways to go but you now are thinking of being honest and you seem to a least want to do the right things even though you might not be feeling them yet......it takes a while for the fog to lift.......I'm a BS and it hurts every bone in my body to think my husband cares for someone else in this marriage, I'm sure your husband feels the same way.....he has a million questions and along with that go all the self doubt we take on in a situation like this.......I know it's different for you and my husband, you have someone in your life now besides us that has been fillling your needs and you think about them and have feelings for them.......but it is real? If you love your husband at all then the marriage deserves a chance, right now you are not thinking of him as the man you would do anything for, right now all you think about is you make one wrong move or statement and I can quit trying.....understand his feelings, give him the right to be mad......just touch him gently and tell him you want to fix all that and that you really do love him enough to try..........
If after you have given it a good try and the feelings just don't return for you, then leave right away and let him heal.
make sure you take care of him, don't expect to much to soon.....
understand what you have done and why, fix what needs to be fixed inside of you as well.......happiness for both of you will emerge from all this........

Hey SW -

UGH. I had a post all typed up, then MB logged me off. UNBEKNOWNST TO ME. So now I'll give you the abbreviated version:

1) JL's point about anger being a secondary emotion. SPOT ON. What do you think?

If you are angry, make sure your BH knows it's not at him. (If you are angry at him, first make sure it's legit using JL's point above, then discuss it in a non-LBer way.) Figure out why you're angry, own it, and know that it's not about him, it's about you. (One time post-A where that's true!)

2) On Hitch's thread, you posted some interesting stuff.


I would be very cautious about trusting and following this kind of feeling. During my A, I was desperate to be alone. I wanted nothing more than independence, I was so utterly convinced that it was the only thing left and best for me. I was also convinced that I would be fine on my own, (I didn't care enough about anybody else anyway), and it mattered not a whit if there were an OM or not. Just me, myself, and I.

It was cowardly, though. It was running away from a problem of my own creation, it was turning a blind eye to the devastation I was actively inflicting on my own life, my BH, and our M. Yet I didn't realize any of that at the time. I just wanted to be away from it all.



During that same time, thinking I wanted independence, it did surprise me when I got ticked off at some girl mooning over my BH. That actually helped clear some fog for me. Turns out, I did care. (Nice way of showing it, huh?)

After all this, if your feelings are genuine then it speaks to a larger problem regarding your recovery. You have got be all in. You said:


You will never achieve that "fall in love, stay in love" marriage if you don't go all in. I know you've mentioned how it's safer to withdraw, easier to protect yourself...but as the one who had the A, as the one who's here on MB, it falls to you, my dear. Someone has to step up. Invest in the recovery and the marriage with no expectations, (but hoping for the best!), and go all in.



Hmm, pretty sure that's a lovebuster...

Mrs. V. I so love hearing from you. In fact, I have gotten quite fond of those who have stuck with me through my vitriolic, defensive, argumentative process. I think/read back through my first post hours 3 hours after I ended it, and I can't quite believe anyone is still interested.


He is spot on -- one of the very, very few things my mother taught me about emotions. Anger always covers up another emotion. I know I can look at my H now when he is angry about the A and say "what feeling are you fighting feeling?"

I am expressing feelings in the moment. A couple of days ago we were on a hike and I got left between two groups in the middle of NOWHERE. I have zero sense of direction -- given an opportunity to be lost, I will find it - I had just handed off my pack and jacket to my daughter who was going on, and my H went ahead with my son and his girlfriend and I went BALLISTIC when I caught up with him. He was defensive and non-empathetic. I finally stopped him, looked him in the eye and said "I was terrified. Your number one job as my husband is to keep me safe and I don't care if you 'knew' I was safe -- I didn't." He dismissed it for a while then he came to me and apologized sincerely.


I am a loner by nature. My H has worked at home for the last several years and I have utterly failed to put any sort of boundaries in place -- and that is my failure.

But I do need large blocks of time physically and emotionally alone. Alone doesn't bother me.

However, I read in another book yesterday that some WS feel like the only appropriate sanction for them is to be alone for the rest of their lives. I don't know if that plays into my psyche or not.

Plus, I am also working through the exercises for daughters of mothers with narcissistic personality disorder (and you are going to have to trust me that that is my mother) and they often opt to be alone because it is impossible for them to conceive of a safe relationship.

The end goal (I think) is to be OK with being alone, and choose to be in the M.

I think that is where I am, but .... I trust nothing about what I am feeling.

My pdoc is my guide on this because either he is (1) incompetent, (2) sadistic, or (3) he thinks this M can work. He has been relentless on (3), to the point where I told him in May that his insistence that I work on my M (and go NC with OM) felt hostile to me.

Pdoc is very, very good.



He hasn't been that great of an H because I haven't taught him how. Now if I were to teach him, and someone else got the benefit of that, that would me a hugely different story.




This is what I read in another book: "On good days, I am committed to my wife, on bad days I am committed to my marriage, and on really bad days I am committed to my commitment."

I am committed to my commitment right now. This forum has brought me so much good, but I think I have been following the advise too slavishly in contravention of what I know about myself and my H. Big conversation last night -- still processing, but will post when I have the questions it raised formulated.



Strangely enough, at the time, no. We laughed. He hasn't had a clue what has been going on my head.

And he should because he is ordinarily a great mindreader?

He should because you have been so honest with him/yourself?

He should because...?

Someday, you should meet a real player, he would have you going in so many directions and smiling all the way, until...he got tired of you or you disappointed him, then he would dump you.

Players read women like you as if you were taking out ads in the paper begging to be used.

Saddest I am telling you this because you seem to think your H's cluelessness is a bad thing. There is a big difference between being ignorant and being stupid. I doubt your H is stupid, but he may need to know a few things about you he does not know other than you can hurt him deeply. And consequently he can hurt you with little regret.

Please stop with this resentment stuff and start seeing your H in a different light. If he really is as bad as you make him out to be, I wonder why you ever married him. I wonder why you have had children with him, I wonder why you have been married as long as you have. And I wonder why you had an affair and didn't leave him before you did. You are a bright woman.

Your H may have many flaws, but he is the father of your children and he is still with you after all of this. So there must be something in there that is worthy of your attention and even affection.

Saddest, be honest with the man. Educate the man, and talk with the man. At the same time figure out your boundaries and make sure you know them and that he knows them. In short, you can have a great marriage but first you both have to define it within the parameters of your boundaries and needs.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

One thing that I absolutely suck at is mind-reading. Your H probably isn't too good at it either.

Why shouldn't he have been defensive? He just got busted-on for assuming that Ms. Independent-Minded, Think-&-Do-For-Herself would fare OK if she were a few paces off the lead; and for your part, you'd assumed that he'd make the opposite assumption (that you'd be beset by visions of lions, tiger, bears, axe-murderers, starvation, poison ivy, or being stuck in the woods with too many mosquitos & not enough TP) & rush to your rescue so as not to let it happen. [See? Guys aren't even naturally empathetic about women-in-the-woods. We need to be trained.]

Did you call out to him the moment you lost sight of one another? Or did you sucker-punch him by keeping quiet & storing up the anger to unload on him at the moment of reunion when you caught up to him? [Disclaimer: I'm assuming you didn't call out to him.]

Now, should he have learned by this point in your marriage that you don't like being alone on hikes? Maybe. But why chance it to assumption?

My wife & I have learned that assumption is probably THE single lousiest form of communication that there could ever be.

So much of MarriageBuilders, so much of restoring a marriage, boils down to two words: Better communication.

Synchronize each others' expectations in advance. Keep the assuming to a bare minimum. See how much better things will get.

I think you bring up a great point here and I just wanted to share that I benefited from reading this post, GO. It also made me chuckle cuz it's so true...

GO;

Good that you caught the pejorative communication.

T/J;
This type of situation is what has ruined my M.

We have floundered with LBs, DJ's and all kinds of LB withdrawls. All positive intentions fly out the window when you fall into these communication traps.

Behavioral modification can not happen when the communication is negative (in direct or sub concious levels).

The kicker is that it is really hard to identify this yourself and stop. It is years of ingrained communications/behaviors.

I am researching this now. Not a lot of information out there (except the "just stop it" type of advice.)

T/J over...

I'm starting to feel like I'm in one of those horrible nightmares where I show up to give my opening statement to the jury and look down and realize I forgot to put on a shirt.

GO, how did you know I didn't call out? Am I on some sort of reality show where I am being followed or something?

Why didn't I call out?

What is it about building up resentment that works for me? It's like I set traps for him to fail and then think "see, I knew he couldn't/wouldn't/didn't care enough to...." And I have been doing that for years before the A, so it isn't just a post A justification ploy.

And why can't men read minds anyway? Seems like a design defect to me if they are meant to be married to women.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD? Nobody told me being married was going to be hard. It was meant to be sunshine and flowers and cooing babies.

I think my CPU is crashing and I need to ditch the backup and install a new operating system.

JL -- met the player -- OM -- the only thing I admire about him is his technique. I think of him like flesh eating bacteria, and wonder about the relative value of each on the food chain.

Date night tonight. Going to keep it light -- actually, with the crashing CPU, I must keep it light.

Nope, no reality show (which means none of us are gettin' paid for this, dang it). But you can just pretty much be guaranteed that when an exchange such as the one you described transpires, it was on account of lazy communication, low on clarity & high on assumptions.

Like barbiecat says, it's not easy to break bad communication habits. My wife & I still slip up & end up in silly misunderstandings like this once in awhile -- but it's less often. Good news: it's not a born talent -- it's one where you CAN improve if you practice it together.

I am reading a new book about breaking bad communication.
Each chapter is a strategy.
McKay, Fanning and Paleg
Couple Skills

It shows you how to break the habits that cause LB's and DJ's. Each strategy is different, you could use one, or ten.

It also shows the theoretical background behind each chapter.

Confesson: I have always had problems with "just don't LB!"... well, HOW do I stop LBing???

It took me years to establish these patterns! They are familiar to me! change is scary! boy, was I clueless.

Hi SW,

Well two reasons for posting to you . First is I am in no shape emotionally to advise at all - I've posted about that on 101, and Second, I think you are allowing too many lay people here to esp Just learning, and I know nothing about him - he seems intellegent and concerned - to sway you.

Look SW, life, emotions, are a committment. My son's situation now reempathized that. It is about who you can depend on now period. My wife who lives in a nursing home, well now well I honestly feel we feel closer now than we have been in the last year ever since she had to go there. We are Both concerned for his welfare and his life more than anything else, and that brings us even closer. Life and love is about the one you fell in love with and married and that is an exclusive relationship in God's universe, no matter how many doubts or reservations, or for that matter desires. It Is black and white. If you want him keep him and keep changing, if you don't then stop with the bs and divorce. Simple as that in my mind regardless of the vets. I have been married 41 years now. Still want to die in only her arms when I do. That is called committment. We do not have to be attorneys to have that kind of inate intellegence and human feeling.

Sorry, JL, am not anywhere near an 'expert' her but I think you ought to let her back away for abit... You are good, not that good tho.

Thanks,

Tom

But, of course, this is just YOUR lay opinion.



You already choose...years ago, didn't you????

Nobody made you get married or held a gun to your head.

What gives you the right to re-choose???

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - A wrongfully "chosen" alone will NEVER be the right choice. It's morally and ethically wrong. It's biblically wrong...if that's your cup of tea. It is a violation of the commitment you made and oaths/vows you CHOSE to take. I happen to know that your ONLY path to happiness, reasonable happiness and/or just contentment is within your marriage. Society and your rationalizations/justifications tell you otherwise but "alone" will be miserable (as would being not alone with another man you don't have the right to be with). Maybe, just maybe, you'll get to be alone again if he dies first (or cheats on you and gives you an justifiable out). Absent that...you are stuck so get to work making the best of it.

Huh????

PM and Mr. W.,

Sorry. Simply I wanted to try to encourage SW to invest even more in her marriage, but I have this situation with my son now that had me feeling down yesterday. In short, I posted on the 101 forum that he is 24, came back here last Sat. night, lost his job and his older gf threw him out. I am dealing with that with him and feel better today. No reason obviously to interrupt her story.

SW: My only question to you after all you have posted, and what others have said is...do you now feel you would be better off without him, or with him.

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,

Her FEELINGS are irrelevant.

She is recently wayward and in the fog.

She can't trust her FEELINGS right now.

The more important question is what is RIGHT.

She should figure out and acknowledge to herself what is the RIGHT thing to do...

and THEN do it.

Nobody ever regrets doing the RIGHT thing.

Right on, Mr W...but I already know you are always right... Arent "feelings" what get waywards in this mess in the first place...If people concentrated more on doing the "right" thing this world would be a much better place to live in, wouldnt it?

Mr. W.,

Making dinner now for two...my son, and am preparing to talk with him again.

You are right, as I should know. Feelings influence us day to day, honoring our values and committments to do what each of us knows is right overcome those day-to-day feelings and guide us in the long-term.

I thought I had something to offer SW, but now I realize that she is too tough of a person. Nothing against her, but she seems to be running on the fuel of feelings. So will back off - I have my own situation here now.

Thanks,
Tom

SH.

It is nice to see you...rather to see your post here....again. Hope you are doing well.

Tom