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Pepperband #2417897 08/17/10 02:14 PM
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A sample of what you can expect from Mark1952:


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I have used the analogy of walking around in a blizzard without a coat on to demonstrate some of what you described. When we are cold and fighting to remain alive, getting warm is our only real need. Nothing else even matters if we intend to survive the ordeal. This is why Openness and Honesty is typically the TOP EN of most BS when the chance to examine them and rank them according to importance first takes place.

But once we get inside by the fire and begin to warm up a bit, we might find that we are also quite thirsty because while we struggled against the cold we didn't even consider drinking a bunch of fluids to keep ourselves hydrated. It paled in importance when compared to getting to a place of shelter so we could get warm.

After we have satisfied our thirst, we might realize that we are also pretty hungry since eating too had taken a back seat during our struggle to survive and find shelter. We also expended a huge number of calories just trying to keep enough warmth to stave off hypothermia and maintain enough brain function to find a solution to our ordeal. This is why we "shiver" when cold, BTW. It is our body's way of burning more calories to generate warmth. It is a sign that our core is cooling rapidly and we need to find a place to warm up right away.

Then after we have had a meal, we find that we are quite tired. In fact we feel so exhausted that we can hardly imagine the things we know we already went through. Nothing else matters now except getting some rest and we fall asleep quickly, our minds finally getting some peace as well as our body's beginning to recuperate from the exertion.

When we are going about our daily lives we don't even think about the air we breathe. We inhale, exhale and go on with what we are doing. But if our air supply is suddenly cut off, we suddenly need and want nothing more than to get our next breath.

Needs can and DO change according to circumstances as well as based on what is or is not being met at the moment. Keep in mind that the same is true for your wife. If SR is struggling with something the kids are doing, FC is likely to move up her list. If she has to go a week without being able to get everything she wanted to get at the grocery store, FS might be her top EN. If she is struggling with something she wants to discuss with you, Conversation might be at the head of her list.

Generally, based on what our actual top ENs really are, they will quickly move back into the top 5 once the circumstances have changed. Also remember that there are 4 ENs that are a bit unique. Called the Intimate Emotional Needs by Dr Harley, they are SF, Affection, Conversation and Recreational Companionship. These 4 are special because they are signs of intimacy between you and your wife and are in fact the very things that help to create intimacy in your life together. Typically two of these 4 will be among your top 5 just about all the time except under specific circumstances related to a crisis situation that needs addressing immediately. Just like getting warm can be more important than eating when you are freezing to death but once the crisis is passed, things like thirst and hunger and sleep are what drive you every day of your life. Emotional needs are very much like physical needs in that regard.

Once we feel warm and safe again, we are content to focus on what we need on a day to day basis and not worry about things that are not pressing. But this is why we need to make sure we are striving to meet the needs of our spouse as well because if we get too complacent in our own satisfaction, we tend to lose focus on what we ourselves don't really need at the moment.

Mark
*LINK* to the thread in MB101


Pepperband #2417898 08/17/10 02:15 PM
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Looking at that list, here are my thoughts.

1. O&H, that takes time, and given her condition, even if you were 1000% honest, she won't accept it initially. This is largely an impression and will be impervious to facts. Besides, how does one prove they are not lying?

2. Conversation. NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS! If she's willing to talk, you may be able to make some traction here. As you can see by her comments, she doesn't like the way you do it. Part of that can be the affair as I'm sure she tells him he's so easy to talk to. One of the best things you can do to be a good conversationalist is to be a good listener. Let the conversation go where she wants to go, empathize, listen not just for facts, but how she feels about things. It's hard to complain about someone who will listen to you, appears engaged and is willing to share, but not be selfish in the conversation.

3. Affection: So what does she want? Assuming that she even wants you to be affectionate at this point. Perhaps watch and see how she's affectionate with the children and practice that same sort of thing with them. Affection by proxy. Watch how she delivers affection to family, the children for clues on what she wants. Don't expect affection (or anything really) to lead to sex at this point.

4. Admiration: You might be able to score some points here. I suspect it will be hard as what she's doing is difficult to admire. Again, watch how she admires others. Does she offer any admiration of the OM in her e-mails? If so, that may be a clue how she expects admiration to be delivered to her. The tendency is for people to do for others what they want done for themselves. That's why watching her conversations, her admiration and her affection gestures will help you hone your skills on meeting those needs for her.

5. Recreational Companionship. This is probably your best bet as you may be able to do the same sorts of things you did when you got married. The additional advantage here is if you are out on dates with your wife, she will find it difficult to be engaged with the OM. So what sort of things did you do when you first dated that she really liked. Get a sitter for the kids, take her out and do those things with her with no expectations.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
Mel, our accounts are joint... she will just use joint accounts to pay.

Go to the bank TODAY. And close the joint accounts and move the money into an account w/ just your name.

Get a legal opinion first. I am not a lawyer. You may need to file first before an account becomes sole and separate property. In some community property states, a sole account is still part of the community assets.

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It's OK you moved the money.
Just don't spend it.

Pepperband #2417919 08/17/10 03:20 PM
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So when she got home I brought up the fact that I found her ENQ and I explained to her how valuable the information was and that I would like the opportunity to start working on filling her EN's. I thought it kind of hit her, becuase I dropped it at that and then took DD out back to go swimming.

Just when I thought I might have lit a spark... I come back in and read this e-mail chain to OM

WW: It's been ok. XXXXX's home and he's not going back to work until Thursday and it's bugging the crap out of me. But other than that, it's been ok. I got DD from school so that was nice. I missed her and she won't even tell me what she did all day. How has your day been? What you up to?

OM: Mines been ok. Are y'all talking? I felt so bad for u yesterday

WW: Yeah, we're talking. Everybody keeps telling me to take the high road, so I'm trying not to add anymore anger/drama to the picture. XXXXX gave me lots of good advice yesterday. Things like he can't take my kids away for having an affair and especially not for just talking to someone.

OM: Yeah XXXXX called me and was like "u got something u wanna tell me?" I was like o ya btw lol he said y'all had a good talk.

WW: So I guess I'm still talking to you behind his back, but I don't feel quite so bad about it now. So what's going on with YOU?

OM: Well I'm glad ur talking to me. I def missed you. I'm good. Cut my hair!!! Still trying to figure out my next move. No clue.


ARRRGGGGHHHH!!! So frustrating!


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2417923 08/17/10 03:29 PM
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KEEP that email somewhere safe ...

Pepperband #2417924 08/17/10 03:30 PM
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Isn't is AMAZING that an adultress can say "having an affair" and "take the high road" in the same conversation?

SteveinJAX #2417926 08/17/10 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by POSOM
Still trying to figure out my next move. No clue.


Married.

No divorce filed yet.

Last edited by chrisner; 08/17/10 03:39 PM.

Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It ain’t just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
chrisner #2417930 08/17/10 03:45 PM
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I love how she has this idea that you are TAKING her children from her...

Classic wayward - can't see the reality that she is LEAVING them and her family.

It's sick.


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Pepperband #2417941 08/17/10 03:54 PM
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I just want to mention that her ENQ is very directed towards convincing you that the marriage was hopeless.
She is very invested into convincing you that you never should have gotten married, that you shouldn't stay married, and that the best thing for the kids is that you remain cordial and friendly during the divorce.
She will try to convince you that you don't need lawyers -- you can use a mediator!

Her email to OM is to keep him on the line. She HAS to be in the process of divorce, otherwise he might lose interest.


Lexxxy #2417966 08/17/10 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Lexxxy
I just want to mention that her ENQ is very directed towards convincing you that the marriage was hopeless.
She is very invested into convincing you that you never should have gotten married, that you shouldn't stay married, and that the best thing for the kids is that you remain cordial and friendly during the divorce.
She will try to convince you that you don't need lawyers -- you can use a mediator!

Her email to OM is to keep him on the line. She HAS to be in the process of divorce, otherwise he might lose interest.


Agree 110% laugh

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I would treat the information as suspect.

I recall when I heard the accusations of my WW that I was very prone to taking her word. Here's a simple rule, Waywards LIE, period!

So nothing can be taken at face value. There may be kernels of truth, so you cannot casually throw things out. But things are also distorted (I.E. she lying) due to the fog of the affair. History is re-written, your real life character is compared to the fantasy she has of the OM, etc.

So you can neither rely on, nor dismiss what she's telling you. Words are cheap and easy to use even if she doesn't mean them. Actions are harder to fake, so you need to verify everything in terms of actions.

If she says you were dishonest, then all you can do is be honest. If she says you don't provide affection the way she wants it, part of it is she wants it the way the OM provides it. It's hard to fight that. So what you have to do is recall what works and watch what she's doing.

So I fall in the middle. It may be manipulation, an attempt to convince you the marriage was a mistake.

It may be her telling herself those things, in a way to justify what she's doing, talking herself into the validity of her actions. It likely also contains some distorted truth. Truth warped by the justifications, manipulations and fog of the affair.

So don't discard, but verify. And don't take it personally. I know, that's probably hardest.

Probably the best advice I would give you, other than running to the lawyer today. (You've done that, right?) Is not to react to everything you encounter. It will be emotionally exhausting, and you will not be able to run this marathon.

Act, and then only after deliberation. Like sleep on it before you react.

I was going to suggest NOT telling her you read the ENQ. Don't tell her you are going to try. That's about as valuable as what she's saying. Make a plan, then go to work.

Do you have a date night set up yet? That will help determine if she really wants RC, or if she's blowing smoke. What have you noticed about how she offers affection? What about how her family shows affection, one to another?

Conversation. Not about relationships, about other things. What did you talk about when dating?

Plan and act. Don't react to every new bit of intel you acquire. Not all of it is reliable.

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Yep, surely understand you can't take everything at face value. I try to tell myself that everytime I see another e-mail exhange between WW and OM.

We had a date night last Saturday that bombed completely... she was just not committed to it. I am trying to get her to do something again, something we both would like to do that would be interactive, more like recreational companionship than a date.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2418023 08/17/10 08:03 PM
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Have you read this?
*LINK* to The Wayward Script.
Pay particular attention to "The Blame Game" (You'll need to scroll down to read it)
Quote
THE BLAME GAME

By now, you should be aware that all of this MUST be your spouses fault, however, your spouse may not understand this completely yet, so you need to start planting the seeds.

There are several ingenious ways to put the blame on your spouse, and we will be exploring them all.

Method 1: The Non-Blame Statement

I'm trying not to blame YOU

This statement implies that you are "not putting the blame on them" but on closer look (which your spouse is guaranteed to be doing) The words actually put all of the blame on the spouse (where of course we know it belongs).

Method 2: The Passive Blame Statement

I don't think that I can live with you.
My opinion never mattered to you.
I cant' live like this.
We rarely have fun anymore.
I don't want to live this way anymore.
(There are many more I'm sure you can think of)



These are passive statements that don't actually assign blame to your spouse, but your spouse will definitely get the idea if you use them. They can't help but see that it MUST be them that makes you feel this way.

Method 3: The Direct Blame Statement

You never listen to me.
You never put creases in my pants.
You use bagged salad.
You never keep the house clean.
You are going to do it your way.

All of these are direct statements of blame. You should mix actual faults with things that don't really matter to make it more confusing, and make your spouse feel as bad as possible about themselves.

Your spouse has probably already started doing the hard work to look inside his/herself (Yuck, what an awful thought!) and will take on all of the faults you list to try and correct them. This will keep them occupied for awhile, and you can avoid any serious relationship talks while they apologize for and try to fix all of their own faults. Make sure that you don't actually accept the apology, that way you can continue to bring the fault up which will slow down their self improvement process. Remember, they are working on becoming better human beings, and you wouldn't want that to happen to fast, as that would interfere with your ability to string them along.


Pepperband #2418027 08/17/10 08:15 PM
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Pepper, read the link... very good. How should I get her to read it... e-mail it to her. She surely isn't lurking around here. I'm not sure I understand the blame game though. Could you clarify, please. Thanks.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2418029 08/17/10 08:28 PM
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You won't get any traction by sending her this link at this time.
Don't do it.

I just wanted you to realize she is following THE WAYWARD SCRIPT.
Sooooo .... don't beat yourself up by believing her nonsense about the ENQ.

The BLAME GAME is what waywards do.
They tell themselves that their spouse NEVER met any of their needs.
And furthermore, never will meet any of their needs in the future.
The marriage was ALWAYS a mistake ... etc etc etc.

They do this to rationalize the great wrong of adultery. Which they know, deep in their hearts, adultery is just wrong.

Carry on plan A.



SteveinJAX #2418041 08/17/10 09:21 PM
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Quote
WW: Yeah, we're talking. Everybody keeps telling me to take the high road,

How exactly does a wayward take the "high road?"
crazy Unbelievable.

Your mutual friend just became an enemy of your marriage. I guess everybody's a marriage counselor now. My stbxww had a whole host of them. And they all sucked.

I would tell your mutual friend to please mind his own business and let you work on your marriage with your own wife, that his input is not needed anymore and that you would appreciate it if he stayed away from her. That is unless he either is willing to convince her to stop her affair with another man or he lives close to a hospital. smile

~optimism





optimism #2418047 08/17/10 10:07 PM
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Hey Steve,

I know you are in the watching stage whats your plan for exposing the A?
I know you have the OM friends list from FB so you can email them when you are ready but what about your inlaws?
can they be of any help to wake WW up from this behaviour??
Why is OM talking to a mutual friend??
is that friend enabiling the A?
if so whats your plan, is there any way you can confront and deal with that person by shaming them and their behaviour ie talking to their spouse about the way they are enabling your spouses A?
Right now i get the impression that your WW has a few enables around and no one to give her a reality and moral check a part from you (and your opinion wont count in her eyes as your bias).
She has been disrispecting your marriage and putting her warped point of view accross to her friends/enablers isnt it time to tell them your side and recruit a few to aid you?



BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

optimism #2418048 08/17/10 10:07 PM
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Quote
I guess everybody's a marriage counselor now


I remember when WH during one FR said he was just doing what everyone told him to do when he left me because everyone said it was wrong to stay married just for the kids. I am thinking really? how many of those loons had experience to say that?

Anyway I am in FL too and I wanted to mention, in order to get divorced in FL parents must take a Parents,Children and Divorce class. Its 3 hours. You can take it anytime but you have to take it for the divorce. The class is pretty good, mainly about parent sharing since even though FL is no fault, they consider parents equal. However my favorite part of the class was when the instructor said so how many of you have already started a relationship with someone new and a bunch raised their hand and she said, well you might get more out of this class 4 years from now when you are taking it again.

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Quote
However my favorite part of the class was when the instructor said so how many of you have already started a relationship with someone new and a bunch raised their hand and she said, well you might get more out of this class 4 years from now when you are taking it again.



Now that's enlightening. Yes, I was aware of the course requirement. My problem though is that I am in the military and will transfer next summer, most likely far out of state. My WW plans to stay in FL, so that makes shared parenting extremely difficult even though I will be on shore duty and not going out to sea or deploying for the next 5-6 years. At that point I only have 3-4 years until retirement.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
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