Hello everyone... just found out about this website yesterday from our marriage counselor during our first session so here I am.
A little background... my wife and I have been married for 6 years and have a 5 year old daughter and 16 month old son. My wife told me last Saturday night that she just doesn't feel the same about me anymore and no longer wants to be married to me. She says she has felt this way for quite a while... maybe over a year but that is an estimation based on an event she described a year ago at counseling yesterday. Obviously I got her to agree to attend counseling, but she really doesn't think it's going to work, and she does not really even want to try. After some personal reflection, I realize that I did not show her enough emotional support and love that she needed in the relationship. Sure I did at first which is why she loved me in the beginning, but over time, and work, kids, and life took over, the magic disappeared, but I was never aware that she was unhappy until last Saturday.
Now onto my main concern... am I wasting my time and prolonging the inevitable if I try to show her that I can still be that man she fell in love with and provide her the happiness and love she desires so much. She says she doesn't think she will ever change the way she feels and it hurts to hear her say that. I don't want her to leave because I believe that in time we can work out our problems if both of us are willing to put in the effort. If she is not willing, then it looks as though I may be delaying the inevitable. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Right now your wife's Love Bank is in a deficit situation. Her balance is negative. She does not feel in love with you and doesn't see how she can feel in love with you. However, we here in the Marriage Builders community have seen over and over that if you start making deposts by truly meeting her Emotional Needs (ENs) and also stop making withdrawals with Love Busters, her Love Bank will be positive and she will feel in love with you. It is your responsiblity to keep her feeling in love with you by meeting her ENs...to do this you HAVE to change. You can do this because you have done it before...you got her to fall in love with you in the beginning.
Wanna, I know you are right and I accept responsibility for bankrupting her love bank. I think I have been making deposits. Tuesday I sent her flowers, Wednesday I left her an I love you note before I left for work, every night when we go to bed and every morning before I leave I give her a kiss and tell her I love her. Today we took the kids to the zoo. Tomorrow we have a date night, movie, dinner, and dancing. Are these the deposits I need to be making or is there something I am missing. So far I haven't seemed to get anywhere and she still wants to leave. I know this problem didn't develop overnight, and it won't be fixed in a week or a month. But she still insists that no matter what I do, she is not going to change her mind.
1) Your wife's balance may be so low that even though you are making deposits you still have not gotten the balance to be over zero. So if her balance was -200 and you added 50, it would still be -150 and she would not feel in love.
2) You need to make sure that you are meeting her most important needs in the way she wants them met (use the Emotional Needs questionnaire)
3) You need to sustain this level of EN meeting...when you were initially wooing her, a week of interest and then nothing would not make her fall in love. Also, she does not trust you to make changes so you have to show that you are in this for the long haul.
4) I don't know about your case, but sometimes people don't allow you to meet their ENs because they have another person that they are having an Emotional or Physical affair with.
Feelings are a funny thing. They change constantly, and yet our mind convinces us that they are unchanging. I'm certain that on the day she married you she could never conceive of NOT loving you - or she wouldn't have married you.
Now she is at the opposite place. There have been so many withdrawals of love by you for so many years that she cannot conceive of loving you.
And even if she does - even if you change, there is always the fear that it is temporary. That old behaviors will revert.
You will have to affect a PERMANENT change to the way you view your marriage. You will have to establish completely new BEHAVIORS and consistently practice them FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.
The trick isn't getting your wife to fall in love with you again, you CAN do that. The trick will be getting her to STAY in love with you and getting her to BELIEVE she will stay in love with you for the rest of your lives.
It took you 6 years to get to this point.
A couple of flowers and I love you notes this week is hardly a drop in the bucket.
There is A LOT of good information here for you.
Right now you need to ask your wife 2 questions:
-What am I doing the MOST that hurts the WORST? (This question addresses the love busters you commit - ANY answer she provides is a valid answer. You should not argue or defend yourself AT ALL, rather consider her response and eliminate the behavior that is hurtful)
-What can I do that makes you feel the most loved? (This question addresses her most important Emotional Needs. Again, any answer she provides is valid. You're wasting your time sending flowers if they don't make her feel loved. If what she needs is a hug every day to feel loved, then do THAT.)
Think back to when you were dating and fell in love. You didn't fall in love because the stars aligned - she fell in love with you because of WHAT YOU WERE DOING. HOW you were acting created feelings of love in her for you. YOU are responsible for the wife your love feels for you.
You need to be that man, again. You need to be the man she fell in love with.
One of the key ingredients to what made you fall in love then, and what will make you fall in love again is TIME. You absolutely MUST begin spending time together - at least 20 hours a week. You need to clear your schedule of ANY extra activities and devote time to focusing on HER.
Yeah, I know - you got kids and busy schedules. You will get NOWHERE if you don't spend time together.
This is a MUST.
Finally, and this is a precautionary step you MUST take - you need to be snooping on your wife. Typically, when there is a sudden sense of loss of love, it is because there is a new point of comparison. She feels less love for you because there is someone new around meeting her needs. Typically when women want out of a marriage it is after years of giving it their all and experiencing years of marital neglect. The #1 reason women leave men is for neglect. Not for abuse, or addiction, but neglect. And, typically, these women just LEAVE. There is no reasoning or rationalizing with them. They are DONE. So when a woman says it just 'isn't working' and she 'needs some space' or 'doesn't love you anymore' ALMOST all the time it is because there is another man in the picture.
You need to consider this possibility - because all the work you do will be wasted if there is another man in the picture.
If you review emotional needs then you will realize that gifts are not one of the top 5 emotinal needs. It is a love language, and it might not even be hers, it is probably yours.
I think it would be best if you find her top emotional needs and gear yourself to meeting those. For instance if it is affection find the way that she likes to feel affection. For my wife I just have to be touching her with a hand on the leg or giving her gifts. That is only one need out of 10 that need to be met.
On top of that you have to refrain from Love Busting her. Doing those things that deplete her love bank. Find out your worst LB moves. Your wife will readil ypoint these out. These are things like Disrespectful Judgements (even though you might think you are helping her, you can actually DJ her), Angry Outbursts, annoying habits.
Spend up to 15+ hours of undivided attention together each week. no movies no tv nothing that will take your attention off your wife. Use these hours together to meet ENs. Some of my favorite UA is getting the SF EN done....hint hint.
Ok, so I printed out the EN questionnaire and presented it to my wife. I sat down with her at dinner and spoke of the Love Bank concept and how I have depleted her bank of love. I asked her to complete the questionnaire and I would complete one as well. She said she doesn't feel like completing it. So I calmly rephrased by saying it would mean a lot to me if you would take a few minutes to complete the questionnaire. She didn't respond, and I left it at that.
Thanks for the inputs so far. I will definitely ask her those questions, but I need to find a good time to do it. I think she is beginning to get really annoyed that I am trying so hard to fix something she is making clear she does not want to fix.
Wheels, her love languages are Receiving Gifts, Quality Time, and Words of Affirmation. If I get her to complete the EN questionnaire I will begin focusing on her primary ENs.
Vibrissa, I hear what you are saying about snooping, but I am not sure that snooping positively contributes to the love bank, especially in trust. To amplify, my wife recently went on a trip to Washington to attend her nephew's wedding. I could not attend because of work commitment. When she returned she did tell me that she met someone while she was there that made her fell wanted and appreciated. He lives in Arkansas. She had been calling him the first few days she was home, and she told me that. I did not find that out on my own. She told me that it was not fair on her part to do that to me so she said she called him and told him she would not call him anymore. So do I need to snoop. She had given me the password to her e-mail account many years ago, and she recently changed it, so maybe they are communicating by e-mail, I don't know. It sure sounds fishy, I know, but without the password I won't know, so I can't force myself to worry about whether or not she is communicating by e-mail. I have checked her cell phone log, and she has not called him anymore since the day she said she stopped calling him. I am pretty sure she does not know how to clear that log, because all of the other times she called him are still in the log.
Bottom line, if she is communicating with him, I am wasting my time, but since I don't know and can't know for sure I just have to assume that she is telling me the truth, since she was truthful by telling me about him the first time.
A little background... my wife and I have been married for 6 years and have a 5 year old daughter and 16 month old son. My wife told me last Saturday night that she just doesn't feel the same about me anymore and no longer wants to be married to me. She says she has felt this way for quite a while... maybe over a year but that is an estimation based on an event she described a year ago at counseling yesterday.
Steve, welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here. The problem is that your wife is having an affair. It was only AFTER she met this new man that she decided she wasn't in love with you. That is because she has a new point of comparison.
If there is an affair, all the need meetin' in the world will not save your marriage. What WILL save your marriage is if you get the true facts about her relationship with this man and come back to this board and let us help you.
My suggestion would be to not ask her, but quietly do some snooping. Put a keylogger on her computer [eblaster at spectorpro.com] flexispy on her phone and a GPS on her car. The fastest horse would be a PI if you can afford it. I strongly suspect you will find evidence of an affair.
Here is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders says about this:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time. Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings.
Vibrissa, I hear what you are saying about snooping, but I am not sure that snooping positively contributes to the love bank, especially in trust.
She won't know about your snooping if you don't tell her, and you shouldn't tell her. Snooping is only a lovebuster to spouses who are hiding something.
And it has nothing to do with "trust." There is nothing untrustworthy about snooping on your wife. You have a right to know each and every thing she says and does. No one has the right to the privacy to have an affair.
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Bottom line, if she is communicating with him, I am wasting my time, but since I don't know and can't know for sure I just have to assume that she is telling me the truth, since she was truthful by telling me about him the first time.
it would not be wise at all to assume any such thing. Cheaters always lie about their affairs. And no, you are not wasting your time if she is having an affair and you catch her. Most marriages do not end over affairs and you can save the marriage.
BUT..you won't save it unless you have all the facts.
Ok, after we got the kids in bed, I sat down and talked with my wife. I will tell you that I probably did not say all the right things, but I was upset at some of the answers I received.
First I asked her, and I thought long and hard about this, because it felt like a question that would lead down a path hard to recover from, if she was so determined to leave then why is she still here. Her answer was because she needed to find a job in order to take care of the kids and pay bills on her own. I will tell you that she has not worked a day in her field, graduated college with accounting degree in 2004. I talked to her about the difficulties she would have trying to make it on her own with 2 children and entry level job income. That was an assumption on my part. All of that was really inconsequentional to the next question I asked... was she still talking to the guy she met in WA? She looked me in the eye and said yes. Even after telling me a five days ago that she had stopped talking to him. She apologized, but by this point I was not really wanting to be forgiving. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that qualifies as emotional spousal abuse. I suspect that she didn't have sex with him because she was on her period while she was there, and even in our best days we never had sex during that time. But the fact that she lied to me and continued a relationship with this guy downright got to me. She told me that she would call him right now and tell him it was over, delete him from e-mail, and facebook. I was skeptical at first. I went on by telling her that I didn't want her to leave here with the children, and that of course struck a nerve with her. She claimed I was a bully, trying to keep her here by threatening to take her kids away. I was not trying to threaten or bully her. I know that does me know good in trying to reconcile the marriage, which I know still can be done, and honestly I still would like to reconcile, but I am sure it will be much harder now. We sat in silence for about 5 minutes and then I told her I wouldn't say anything else and I would let her think about the road she wanted to go down and let me know. After a few minutes of silence she got up, grabbed her cell phone, and went outside and called the guy. I verified the phone log. Then she went to the computer and deleted him from facebook. I verified her friends list. Then she went into the bedroom and closed the door. And here we are.
So, Road you all were right... she was having an affair. Now I really don't know what to do. We are supposed to have a date night tomorrow evening, and I don't know whether to pursue that or not.
Thanks for listening and you advice. I really appreciate it.
Ok. I went on by telling her that I didn't want her to leave here with the children, and that of course struck a nerve with her. She claimed I was a bully, trying to keep her here by threatening to take her kids away. I was not trying to threaten or bully her. I know that does me know good in trying to reconcile the marriage, which I know still can be done, and honestly I still would like to reconcile, but I am sure it will be much harder now.
What you did by telling her she can't take the kids is one of the wisest things you have done here. In order to pursue her fantasy, she needs you to cooperate with her intended destruction of the marriage and the family. The only thing you will get by doing that is a.............destroyed marriage.
Telling her she can't take the kids and that you will fight her tooth and nail in a divorce shocks most waywards and injects a huge dose of reality.
I think it is important for you to understand exactly WHAT a lovebuster is, becuase I think you have confused ENABLING with acts of love. cooperating with her divorce scheme would be enabling. Appeasing her bad behavior will not save your marriage, it will destroy it. Keep in mind that you are all your children have right now and they need you to fight for your marriage and protect their family.
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After a few minutes of silence she got up, grabbed her cell phone, and went outside and called the guy. I verified the phone log. Then she went to the computer and deleted him from facebook. I verified her friends list. Then she went into the bedroom and closed the door. And here we are.
ok, it is doubtful she ended the affair. This was all put on for show so she can go further underground. I assure you that all you did was tip your hand so she can become a better hider.
Your next step should be to QUIETLY [WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE] find out if the OM is married and get the phone # to his house. If he is married, you may be able to kill this affair with one phone call to his wife. Do not threaten to do this; it needs to be done with no forewarning.
In the meantime, I would suggest installing eblaster [spectorpro.com] on her computer and putting flexispy [flexispy.com] on her phone.
But please stop asking her about the affair. That is a useless endeaver. You will not get the truth from a liar.
Melody, thanks again. I just finished installing eblaster on her computer and tested it. Works great.
I'll leave her cell phone alone for now, since I am pretty sure she doesn't know how to delete call logs from it since every call she has made to him is still on the phone, so I'll go with that before I pay the $350 for it. Since she recently changed her e-mail password I suspect they were communicating via e-mail or chat, so with e-blaster I've got that covered.
I checked the guys facebook page and it says he's single. I'm not sure I want to call him out on that just yet.
I will stop asking her since I think I've got a good way of tracking her now.
Thanks for the reassurance that what I told her tonight was the right thing. Maybe it gave her a shock of reality of what's to come if she continues down this road. Only time will tell.
So, with all the new events of this evening, and the fact that I want to fight to keep our marriage together, I am not sure where to go from here. I know that casual conversation will be difficult, and we have a scheduled date later today.
So, with all the new events of this evening, and the fact that I want to fight to keep our marriage together, I am not sure where to go from here. I know that casual conversation will be difficult, and we have a scheduled date later today.
Steve, just play it cool and tell her that you won't cooperate with any divorce or separation schemes and you won't let her take the kids without a court order. Focus your attention on gathering intel so you can find out what is going on.
See, most waywards fantasize about how easy it will be to just move on. That fantasy is contingent upon your cooperation. If you can politely, but firmly, tell her that she will be in the for the fight of her life, you will ruin her fantasy.
Another thing you can do is call up the OM yourself and ask him what his intentions are. Tell him you intend on fighting for your marriage and if this ever goes to court that you will file on grounds of adultery and have him hauled into court to testify under oath. Tell him to leave your wife alone, that there is no future in his affair because he will be eternally hated by your children and the inlaws. Most OM are pansies and will run at the first sign of trouble.
It is also very probable that your W has lied to him about the state of your marriage. Calling him will clear up any lies.
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I checked the guys facebook page and it says he's single. I'm not sure I want to call him out on that just yet.
Go on there today and copy all of his facebook contacts into a WORD doc before he removes his page. That way you will have it for safekeeping. Can you ID his parents from that page?
Once you get the goods, you will need this info for a nuclear exposure.
Melody is guiding you well. Also do not leave your home if she ever asks for space and wants you to move out.
Do not get mad if you discover something on the computer and say something to her. You must maintain your cool. Then you do a huge nuclear exposure to everyone. That's how she'll find out you know.
We are getting ready to go on our date ina couple of hours. So far today conversations have only revolved around me bullying her about taking her kids away. She didn't sleep very well last night (we still sleep in the same bed). She says that after me threatening her to take her kids away from her that she has been thinking of how she can get a job and how much she needs to make in order to move out. In the meantime, she is stuck here in our home which gives us time, but she is determined right now that all she wants is to leave. She's tired of talking about it, and says we have already said everything we need to say, which I know is not true. I know I can't make her want to try, and I guess all I can do is allow her to follow the road she wants to go down and find out it's not what she thinks it's going to be. I am surely not going to make it easy for her. She knows she can't leave with the kids without a court order, and that I will delay divorce proceedings to keep dragging it out and running up her legal fees.
I don't want to sound like I am trying to threaten her, because that will get us no where in the long run, but I do want her to know that I am going to fight to save this marriage with more than just filling her emotional needs. I have to for my children's sakes.
I copied the guys friends list and saved it for future use if necessary. I was able to ID his mother. I asked her about what she said when she called the guy last night, and she told me she told him that she couldn't talk to him anymore since I threatened to take away her kids. Sounds like a delay tactic to me, but I'll be watching what she is doing on her phone and computer.
Oh and another thing... she says that she never regrets marrying me, but she thinks we are just not right for each other. What the heck does this mean?
It means that your wife is in an affair. People in affairs say all kinds of wacky things; we call it the "wayward fog". Perhaps it is an emotional affair and not a physical one, but it is an affair nonetheless.
Listen closely to MelodyLane. She is an expect at marriagebuilder principles and breaking up affairs.
If you have not started reading the information in the articles on this site, take a look at them. Also, read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. It is full of useful information. On the surviving an affair forum, there is a thread for newbies. Read that, especially about the carrot and stick of breaking up an affair.
I am sorry this is happening to you and your family. But welcome to marriagbuilders. There is a wealth of information here about how to recover a marriage after an affair.
I just have a second but look up on this site for Plan A. Have her fill out the Love Busters questionaire also. The idea is to start meeting her needs as she filled out on the emotional needs questionaire, stop doing those love busters she fills out on the love busters questionaire and spend 15 hours with her of undivided attention.
Remind her if/when she brings it up that you are not taking the kids away but that you are fighting for your family and your children are staying with you and they should be raised in an environment with you and she as the father and mother.
I know I can't make her want to try, and I guess all I can do is allow her to follow the road she wants to go down and find out it's not what she thinks it's going to be.
She will want to try if you can kill this affair. She is currently emotionally invested in the affair but if you kill that, you have a chance to get her back.
You can influence the outcome here if you gather intel and come back here and let us help you use it strategically. In the meantime, be as sweet as possible and continue to tell her you won't cooperate with any divorce shemes, won't allow her to take the kids without a court order, and won't give her any family money for an apartment.
The plan you should be in is Plan A, Steve. Plan A
And please get the book Surviving an Affair and read it as fast as you can. You can find it in bookstores or can buy it cheap on this website in the bookstore.
I would also click on "notify" on this post and ask the mods to move this thread to the Surviving an Affair forum.
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I don't want to sound like I am trying to threaten her, because that will get us no where in the long run, but I do want her to know that I am going to fight to save this marriage with more than just filling her emotional needs. I have to for my children's sakes.
I would tell her it is not a "threat" it is a promise. You promise to do everything in your power to protect your children from her schemes.
Oh and another thing... she says that she never regrets marrying me, but she thinks we are just not right for each other. What the heck does this mean?
It means she has met a new point of comparison who she believes is right for her.
Melody, I will pick up a copy of the book in the morning and read through it as quick as I can. I really don't know how to kill her emotional investment in an affair, but I am definitely willing to learn.
During our date tonight, I realized that until I can get her emotionally invested in our marriage, conversation between us is really struggling. She does not want to complete any of the recommended questionnaires (EN and LB) because she is just not interested in trying at this point. Really frustrating. I will continue to be strong willed in support of my family, and work hard at continuing my changes to better fill her ENs.
I will continue to gather as much intel as I can and report back. Should I call the OM anyways? There was no recorded activity between the 2 of them today. I think I have her scared to lose her children, which may cool it off for a short while.
Melody, I will pick up a copy of the book in the morning and read through it as quick as I can. I really don't know how to kill her emotional investment in an affair, but I am definitely willing to learn.
We will show you how to kill the affair. There are no guarantees, but we have successfully killed many affairs over the years. Your wife;s affair is in the early stages so this is very hopeful.
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During our date tonight, I realized that until I can get her emotionally invested in our marriage, conversation between us is really struggling. She does not want to complete any of the recommended questionnaires (EN and LB) because she is just not interested in trying at this point. Really frustrating. I will continue to be strong willed in support of my family, and work hard at continuing my changes to better fill her ENs.
There is very little you can do at this point. As you have observed, she is very detached. I wouldn't even bother with the questionaires. The best you can do right now is avoid lovebusters. And PLEASE go see what a lovebuster means. Avoiding lovebusters DOES NOT MEAN APPEASEMENT AND ASSKISSING. It means to be firm and direct about the affair in a polite way. Just as you did when you spoke to her about taking your kids.
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I will continue to gather as much intel as I can and report back. Should I call the OM anyways? There was no recorded activity between the 2 of them today. I think I have her scared to lose her children, which may cool it off for a short while.
I really appreciate the continued support!
I would make plans to call the OM at the first opportunity. Call him up and let him know there is no future for him and he had better leave your wife the hell alone OR HELL IS COMING. Tell him the things I told you above. Most OM are pansies so this might be enough to scare the worm off. It may even be that he doesn't know she is married!
And....don't say anything to your wife about this. See if she finds out and tells you.
You are doing great, Steve! Hang in there and maybe we can turn this around.
Copy of the book was not available at bookstores in my area. I just ordered it online, and should be here Tuesday or Wednesday.
I am going to call the OM this afternoon when my wife heads out to the store. I'll write back later and let you all know how that goes.
I'll focus on only avoiding love busters. I'll be cordial to her for now and continue to spend time with her and our children. Just to be clear, what constitutes [censored] kissing and appeasing at this point?
This evening when we talk, I will tell her again politely that I care deeply about our marriage and our family and I am not going to agree to any divorce or separation agreements, and that she cannot leave our home with our children without a court order. Though right now she is trapped in our home as she cannot afford to leave.
Should I start talking to an attorney at this point to cover my six in the event this does not work? Not giving up hope, just trying to protect my interests and my children.
I'll focus on only avoiding love busters. I'll be cordial to her for now and continue to spend time with her and our children. Just to be clear, what constitutes [censored] kissing and appeasing at this point?
Appeasing means going along with destructive behavior in order to get along. I think you have the right idea about how to behave, though, Steve, in being polite and caring but at the same time being FIRM about defending your family and your marriage.
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This evening when we talk, I will tell her again politely that I care deeply about our marriage and our family and I am not going to agree to any divorce or separation agreements, and that she cannot leave our home with our children without a court order. Though right now she is trapped in our home as she cannot afford to leave.
This is perfect, you have the right idea.
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Should I start talking to an attorney at this point to cover my six in the event this does not work? Not giving up hope, just trying to protect my interests and my children.
I would QUIETLY find out what your rights are. Find out also if you are a fault or no fault state and if you can file on grounds of adultery if need be. You have the right idea here. You may need to file at some point to protect your children and your legal interests. BUT, that does not mean it is over at all. Many of our betrayed spouses do file for divorce but they drop the divorce when reconcilation occurs.
This evening when we talk, I will tell her again politely that I care deeply about our marriage and our family and I am not going to agree to any divorce or separation agreements, and that she cannot leave our home with our children without a court order.
Follow up with a PLAN to recover your marriage and give her hope for the future with this:
"I want us to have a happy marriage where we are both in love. If you would end all contact with OM, I would be willing to work on the marriage and restore the love we once had. I have been reading at Marriage Builders and they have a plan to do this."
Steve, Sorry you are here. You're getting excellent advice and I admire that you are staying firm in your commitment to work on your M. I believe it takes a courageous person to stay the fight when a spouse is emotionally or physically involved with someone else.
I read this today and thought of you and your situation.
"You know you're ready for a divorce when you can walk out the door with no anger, frustration or hurt. Otherwise, you've got unfinished business," says Dr. Phil. "Unless and until you look each other in the eye feeling peace, no hatred or resentment, you're not ready to get a divorce."
My pastor says the hurt in infidelity is what the WS does not see. Your WW is in a fantasy thinking she can leave her current married relationship and waltz into a perfect relationship with OM. What she doesn' see is she hasn't worked on the unfinished business with her married relationship. Most likely the problems she's had in her current relationship will resurface in another relationship. She doesn't see how her relationship with her daughter will change forever.
Maybe saying these things to your WW and then telling her let's exhaust every means to improve our relationship, our marriage, our daughter's future. If after we have tried and then believe we can walk away with no guilt, fear, shame, hurt, resentment - then and only then can we be at peace about divorce being the right thing for us, our daugther and our future.
In some way the above is why I stayed with my FWH. I knew we didn't work on the things we needed to work on and believe me it would have been easier walking away. I stayed, we worked at it and our relationship is better than it ever was (and that was after 17 years of marriage). Infidelity doesn't have to be an end - it can be a beginning.
Alright here are the events of today. I wrote my wife a letter while she was out shopping and she read it when I got home. Here is that letter...
I want you to know, and I know you already do, that I love you and I will not give up on our marriage and our family. Nothing that I say to you is intended to bully or threaten you into staying. What I am saying is that I will fight you tooth and nail. Right now, I am all our children have fighting to keep our family together and I will continue to fight for the. So please know that I will not agree to any separation or divorce agreement, and I will not allow you to remove our children from our home without a court order. These are not threats, they are promises. I lovw you with all my heart, but I will not allow you to destroy our family because you found temporary happiness somewhere else. And that's what it is... temporary. Once the newness wears off, you will be unhappy again. And our children will grow up resenting both of us. All I ask is that you dedicate time and effort to improving our marriage and allow me to love you the way you want to be loved. I can only do this if you let me. I have learned a lot over the last week about how difficult and fragile marriage is, but I have learned that we can recover from where we are right now. It's not too late. But right now, it's up to you. Just please remember that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence and I will do everything to keep you on this side. I want us to have a happy marriage where we both are in love. If you promise to end all contact with (OM), I am willing to work on our marriage and restore the love we once had. I have been reading at Marriage Builders and they have a plan to do this.
Her Reply:
I think I have said all this before, but let me try writing it down. I really want to get all my thoughts out here. When I was young and thought about the man I would marry, I always thought he would just have to make me laugh, to have fun, and just enjoy life with me. I know we used to more together, but I don't think we've ever really gotten each other. When you came along, I was just getting out of a bad relationship, my father had died, and my mom had left. You were stable, and you took care of me. And I love you for those things, but is that a good reason to marry someone? I remember one time when XXXX asked me why I was getting married. My answer was something like, I don't know, because it that's what you do when you grow up. What kind of answer is that? I know you think that is is all about (OM) and finding comfort in something new, but I know in my heart that I won't be happy in this marriage because we just aren't right for each other. I don't know why you would want to hold on to someone who doesn't want to be here. I know you say our kids will be screwed but we can still work together to raise them into healthy individuals. I won't keep them away from you and for the times you are apart, there are phones, web cams, etc. How is that really different from when you are out at sea? You have been gone for months at a time and I still held things together, made sure XXXX did not forget about you. We both love our kids and this will only be hard on them if we make it that way. I think the situation is what it is and we can still make the best of it, and I think in the end, everyone will be just fine.
We talked briefly after the exchange of letters, and I reaffirmed that this was destructive of our children and that I was not going to let her take the kids without a court order and I was not going to agree to a divorce. She got quite angry and raised her voice, but I remained calm, and told her that was where I stood, and I was not going to change my position.
I called the OM today but only got voice mail after 5 attempts so I left a voice mail stating he had better leave my wife alone. There is no future in the affair because our kids will eternally hate you. If you continue, I will file for divorce for grounds of adultery and you will be brought in to testify under oath.
I have not received a response.
What are your thoughts on the events of today? Is it too far gone, or should I still fight? I recommended her to get counseling and I don't know if she will do it, even though she says she will.
What are your thoughts on the events of today? Is it too far gone, or should I still fight? I recommended her to get counseling and I don't know if she will do it, even though she says she will.
Thanks.
You did very good! I would not put any faith in anything she says right now. Typically, when someone is high on an affair, they tend to compare their marriage to the fantasy affair feelings. It is like a crack head comparing reality to the high of crack. Real life always pales in comparison. But when the high wears off and she has to face reality, the crack doesn't look so wonderful.
Your wife is very foggy so it will be important to not take anything she says seriously. Dont' fight with her, dont allow her to bait you into a fight and most of all: don't try to reason with her. She is not using reason so trying to reason with her will be about like trying to reason with a falling down drunk.
Just stick to your plan: snoop on her and do your best to bust up this affair. Don't let anything she says sidetrack you from that plan.
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? I recommended her to get counseling and I don't know if she will do it, even though she says she will.
This is very dangerous to your marriage. An individual counselor will counsel her to go by her current feelings, which is to leave you for another man. The C will help her achieve that goal.
If you want to try counseling, try phone counseling with one of the Harleys, because they will try and save your marriage. They are completely different from traditional counselors in that they are pro marriage and they actually know how to save marriages. [traditional marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and actually have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population]
The Harleys will SELL HER on the prospect of having a happy marriage with you. They are very good in getting reluctant spouses on board with the marriage. If you can swing this, it would be your best bet. They charge about $200 a session, but they are worth every penny. If you can get her to agree, this would be your best bet, because you have ONE SHOT at this, Steve.
I think I have said all this before, but let me try writing it down. ... You were stable, and you took care of me. And I love you for those things, but is that a good reason to marry someone? I remember one time when XXXX asked me why I was getting married. My answer was something like, I don't know, because it that's what you do when you grow up. What kind of answer is that? I know you think that is is all about (OM) and finding comfort in something new, but I know in my heart that I won't be happy in this marriage because we just aren't right for each other. I don't know why you would want to hold on to someone who doesn't want to be here. I know you say our kids will be screwed but we can still work together to raise them into healthy individuals. I won't keep them away from you and for the times you are apart, there are phones, web cams, etc. .... We both love our kids and this will only be hard on them if we make it that way. I think the situation is what it is and we can still make the best of it, and I think in the end, everyone will be just fine.
Steve, please disregard this drivel. Every word of it is directly out of the "Wayward Wife's Handbook." They all say the same things. I heard every sentence above at least once in my own situation. It's just bizarre how many times you hear these refrains as you start reading posts and comparing stories.
Don't listen to anything she says any more than you would listen to a drunk asking for the keys to your new convertible.
You're doing good to listen to Mel and the others about how to break up the affair and get on with building the marriage you really want. It will take time and work, but you can do it. Stay strong.
Melody et al, thanks for the words of confidence. Lots of fireworks here in the house tonight. Just spoke to a mutual friend of ours and got the third degree. She is really rattled right now, not that it means anything.
I have to go out to sea (I'm in the Navy) for a few days, but will be back on Wednesday. I'll try to check in from sea as we do have some internet out there, but very slow.
I appreciate all the kind words of encouragement. You guys are really keeping me going right now. It is very difficult to deal with some of the harshness being dealt out, but I will prevail.
It is very difficult to deal with some of the harshness being dealt out
Don't listen to that either. Consider the woman living in your house to be a replica of your wife. Except that her mind is so scrambled up right now nothing she says makes any sense on this planet. You can respond (you seem to have a knack for it); but don't react. You can offer her a cookie, or a cracker, or a potato chip. [Waywards like those types of things. ] It'll break her train of thought (and that's a generous use of the word "thought").
I'm worried about your trip. I think you need to get ahold of OM if you can, before you go, so she doesn't have time to spin all kinds of yarns about what a cruel, despicable, mean, selfish, controlling (one of my favorites), abusive, allusive, obtrusive, SOB you are ~ it will only strengthen their bond. OTOH, if you let him know he's got the fight of his life on his hands and that things were just fine before he showed up and he really should play with other single people and if he doesn't stop contacting your wife he better hope there's a hospital close to his house.... he might get the hint.
Steve, how often do you have to travel overnight? If that is a frequent ocurrance then it is the source of the problem. When do you get out of the Navy?
You are doing a great job standing up for your marriage! I know it is tough right now, but the things you are doing are the most likely to save your marriage.
If you have a mind, you might want to show your wife this article about how divorce impacts little kids. I posted this to another man in your very position a few years ago:
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oh no, your kids will not be "ok." They will never be the same. They will suffer psychological and developmental damage that will effect them for life. Children from homes with bad marriages fare much better than children from broken homes. They will never be the same.
And don't tell your wife this until next week after you have told your girls, but the OM will be eternally hated by your girls because they will blame him for the ruination of their family. Your wife has this fantasy, as do most waywards, that she can seamlessly replace you with the OM, but that is never how it works. Never. Waywrds try to introduce the kids into the affair in an attempt to give it an air of false respectibility. They use the kids for this purpose.
This is another good reason to expose to the OP's parents. If they know this is nothing more than a sleazy affair with a married woman they will be less likely to allow her to darken their door. This exposure will deal a major blow to the future hopes of the affair because it will be much harder to show their faces around decent people who know the truth.
� Divorce is an intensely stressful experience for all children, regardless of age or developmental level; many children are inadequately prepared for the impending divorce by their parents. A study in 1980 found that less than 10% of children had support from adults other than relatives during the acute phase of the divorce.
� The pain experienced by children at the beginning of a divorce is composed of: a sense of vulnerability as the family disintegrates, a grief reaction to the loss of the intact family (many children do not realize their parents� marriage is troubled), loss of the non-custodial parent, a feeling of intense anger as the disruption of the family, and strong feelings of powerlessness.
� Unlike bereavement or other stressful events, it is almost unique to divorcing families that as children experience the onset of this life change, usual and customary support systems tend to dissolve, though the ignorance or unwillingness of adults to actively seek out this support for children.
� Early latency (ages 6�-8): These children will often openly grieve for the departed parent. There is a noted preoccupation with fantasies that distinguishes the reactions of this age group. Children have replacement fantasies, or fantasies that their parents will happily reunite in the not-so-distant future. Children in this developmental stage have an especially difficult time with the concept of the permanence of the divorce.
� Late latency (ages 8-11): Anger and a feeling of powerlessness are the predominate emotional response in this age group. Like the other developmental stages, these children experience a grief reaction to the loss of their previously intact family. There is a greater tendency to label a �good� parent and a �bad� parent and these children are very susceptible to attempting to take care of a parent at the expense of their own needs.
� Adolescence (ages 12-18): Adolescents are prone to responding to their parent�s divorce with acute depression, suicidal ideation, and sometimes violent acting out episodes. These children tend to focus on the moral issues surrounding divorce and will often judge their parents� decisions and actions. Many adolescents become anxious and fearful about their own future love and marital relationships. However, this age group has the capability to perceive integrity in the post-divorce relationship of their parents and to show compassion for their parents without neglecting their own needs.
Conclusions � Divorce and its ensuing ramifications can have a significant and life-altering impact on the well being and subsequent development of children and adolescents.
� The consequences of divorce impact almost all aspects of a child�s life, including the parent-child relationship, emotions and behavior, psychological development, and coping skills.
� There is a significant need for child mental health professionals, along with other child specialists, to be cognizant of the broad spectrum of possible fall-out from a divorce and then to provide sufficient support for children of divorced parents in all the necessary psychosocial aspects of the child�s life.
- Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.
- Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.
- Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University. . . .
- The previous version of the study, released in 1996, concluded that children of single parents had a 77 percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse than children living with both parents. But the new version will delve much deeper into the specifics of family structure and cohabitation, according to project director Andrea Sedlak.
I know you say our kids will be screwed but we can still work together to raise them into healthy individuals. I won't keep them away from you and for the times you are apart, there are phones, web cams, etc. .... We both love our kids and this will only be hard on them if we make it that way. I think the situation is what it is and we can still make the best of it, and I think in the end, everyone will be just fine.
Here is an MB thread which you might find interesting. It's called "The Fantasy of Divorce".
I haven't read through you thread have you exposed this affair yet?
And I believe the others, that letter she wrote, I believe she copied and paste it from the "wayward wife's site" I actually wanted to throw up when I read it
Melody, I put in a request for Dr. Harley for this coming Friday night.
Steve,
Breaks my heart for you son. I am a Navy guy too and hate it for you the ship is pulling away from the pier while all this is going on.
Its gonna be hard, I have been there too. Keep doing what mel says and log on when you can. These people saved my sanity, and they will guide you well through the tough times to come.
I couldn't get a hold of the OM yesterday, but I left him a message stating exactly what you had recommended. He obviously got it. Here are the e-mails from her computer last night"
Thanks, %%%. i feel like I'm always saying that. I guess goodbye for now. Again. And I miss you too.
>> > If u really gonna leave him it's worth it. Do it the right way. Kids are ur top priority and that's how it should be so I'm good with that. I like u and miss u and I'll wait. I'm not going anywhere unless u tell me u want to stay with him. I'll be patient and I'll wait. Ur worth it. U deserve to be happy &&&&. It's gonna be ok. > > > > > > %%%%%, I truly am so sorry. You really don't deserve this [censored]. I'm sorry he called you. He was drinking today and he's hurt and has been lashing out. I'm still going through with this, but I have to do it the right way so I can keep my kids which it seems is going to take a while. So I guess I really do nee! d to quit talking to you. I really am so sorry about all of this and I want you to be happy and I promise I won't bother you with this anymore. > > >> > To stop calling u. That he'd divorce u for adultery and Id have to swear under oath. That u two where gonna work it and and I had no future with u. That ur kids will hate me for eternity. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm so sorry, %%%%%. What did he say? > > > > > > > > > &g! t; > No he called twice from his phone and once from urs. Left me a nice message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what? did you talk to him? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > U know he called me 3 times today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey, I know I said we couldn't talk and we still can't, but here I am again. I just wanted to let you know that this might take a long time and I would totally understand if you said to hell wit! h that girl i don't need her [censored]. And I also wanted you to know that no matter what, I think you're cooler than the flip side of my pillow. Ok, that's it I guess.
Looks like you are causing trouble in paradise. And the funny thing is that your wife cant say anything to you without admitting she has been in contact.
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I like u and miss u and I'll wait. I'm not going anywhere unless u tell me u want to stay with him. I'll be patient and I'll wait. Ur worth it.
This tells me there was a PLAN, Steve. I would keep reading for now and don't say anything. If she is addicted, she won't be able to quit contacting him and you can get more evidence over the next few days.
In the meantime, can you find out if he is married? Can you tell from his facebook page?
If u really gonna leave him it's worth it. Do it the right way. Kids are ur top priority and that's how it should be so I'm good with that. I like u and miss u and I'll wait. I'm not going anywhere unless u tell me u want to stay with him. I'll be patient and I'll wait. Ur worth it. U deserve to be happy &&&&&&. It's gonna be ok.
You know what? The OM said this EXACT SAME THING TO ME!!
I am gunna tell you this ONCE!!
THEY WILL STILL BE IN CONTACT!!
We tried at least 6 times to end contact so I can "fix" my marriage for the kids, they won't be able to do it, so everything they said to each other is BULL SH*T!
I wish I still had those conversation recorded what me and the OM was talking about, because it was a spit image of this!
Sigh...don't trust them, they will still be in contact. Just keep snooping and you'll find out!
Steve, I am a newbie so not much help, but I do feel a "kindred spirit" kind of connection with you, we are both from Jax! I am following your thread and please listen to all the wise people on this board they are wonderful! You are doing great! Keep it up!
Please do NOT confront WW about the email exchange with POSOM that you saw. Right now, you need that source of intel and if you confront her you are going to lose it as she goes further underground.
Listen to Mel. She will be your guide down the path that leads to your best chance at saving your family. You seem to have what it takes to pull this off. The plan is crucial and it is imperative that you follow it.
Best of luck and also thanks so much for your service to our country.
Steve - what the others said! You're getting great advice.
The only thing I have to add is to keep secure, duplicate, preferably offsite copies of the results of your snooping. This includes chat logs, email, browsing history, cell phone logs, and credit/debit card statements. When waytards realize they're in a corner, sometimes they try to search for and destroy any evidence...which is easy to replace if you have an offsite backup.
I'd also get a voice activated recorder and hide it in her car for while you're gone. Maybe stash another one in the bedroom; she might call OM from your room after the kids have gone to bed. I'm betting this one is going to get an affair phone.
I'd also consider speaking to an attorney (if you haven't already) about the best way to keep the kids in the house and the best way for YOU to stay in the house. She really seems to have this mindset that she's going to take the kids and leave. How old are your kids, anyway? I think I missed that.
There are a couple of threads I'm going to find and bump for you. Keep it up!
Melody... too funny. needed that humor this morning.
So I did not go out on the ship today. In fact I spoke with my chain of command a little and they wanted me to go to Navy Legal to start seeking ways to protect myself and our children. So I went over and talked with a paralegal about the divorce process and what she can and can't do. Florida is a no-fault state. Being a little more concerned on how the military treats divorce and understanding the requirements for support is what I am trying to figure out. I was told that she could leave the house at any time with the kids, and I could do nothing until after she leaves... which I would have to file for emergency custody hearing.
I do not want to divorce, I am simply trying to gather information on the process to make myself a little smarter.
I will not let WW know that I know they are still communicating. I know if she finds out she will find a work around and continue to communicate. After finding out through e-blaster that they were still communicating, I became more interested in flexispy for her cell phone, but I called the company and her cell phone is not compatible... any other software out there which could work? Her cell phone is a Palm Treo 755p.
I really wish I had a copy of that book, Surviving an Affair, on hand today. I would read it cover to cover in one sitting. I am so motivated to bust this affair so we can focus on our marriage. It should be here on Weds/Thurs since I had to order online as it was not available in the bookstores here.
Since I know they are still communicating, I feel there is nothing I can do at this point without having the knowledge of the book. I am home for two more days with her now and it's difficult. BTW, I did not allow her to sleep in our bed last night. I told her that if she didn't want to be here, then I didn't want her sleeping in my bed. That really made her mad, but she went and slept on the couch. Should I continue this?
At this point, I don't think trying to fill her EN's is going to do me one bit of good. They are being filled by OM, and she is not even receptive to my attempts.
Melody, I hope there is trouble in paradise. I'm just going to hold on to that intel for now and she what else surfaces. Unfortunately, I can't find out if he's married. His facebook page says single. There may be a way to get more info from his friends or mother, but that might prove difficult without an inside source. This guy lives in Arkansas, and we are in FL.
Have you read up on Plan A? That's what you can do right now. It is kinda pointless to try to fill her ENs, just for the sake of filling ENs, because it won't do much good. However, it WILL demonstrate that you are capable and WILLING of meeting her needs. Plan A is about demonstrating a WILLINGNESS to become a better husband - to meet her needs. You need to show her that things CAN be GOOD with you.
You need to pursue her. Women respond to that behavior. If you were to NOT meet her needs, she would think you didn't care - no woman is going to want a man who is indifferent to her.
Also, right now you can gear up on your preparations for Exposure. Exposing this affair is the ONLY way to kill it. You need to start researching. Who is the OM? Who is his family? Find his parents, his friends, mutual friends, etc. Get a list of ALL people that are important and influential to your wife. Parents, siblings, close friends, and yes, CHILDREN.
Affairs thrive on the fantasy. You need to crush that fantasy. Right now she's going to lay low, and play nice. Pretend to end this marriage the 'right' way so she can get you out of the house, divorce and bring OM in to replace you.
Do NOT play along with this game. Get ready to EXPOSE what she is planning. Let people know
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but I have to do it the right way so I can keep my kids which it seems is going to take a while.
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If u really gonna leave him it's worth it. Do it the right way. Kids are ur top priority and that's how it should be so I'm good with that. I like u and miss u and I'll wait. I'm not going anywhere unless u tell me u want to stay with him. I'll be patient and I'll wait.
They are plotting to take your family away from you. The rest of the world needs to know this.
I'm sorry this is happening, but there is A LOT you can do now. Lay low - try to not talk relationship talk with your wife. When SHE brings it up (you don't bring it up) say "I will not participate in the destruction of my children's family. Hey you wanna take the kids to the park later?"
Be pleasant, and upbeat. DON'T DRINK!!!!! Plan activities with your kids and invite her. Make it clear that if she walks the path she is planning, she will be LEAVING the family, not leaving you.
At this point, I don't think trying to fill her EN's is going to do me one bit of good. They are being filled by OM, and she is not even receptive to my attempts.
Affection Sexual Fulfillment Conversation Recreational Companionship Honesty and Openness An Attractive Spouse Financial Support Domestic Support Family Commitment Admiration
Are you trying to tell the forum that you cannot meet ANY of these needs ???
Download the ENQ, and answer the questions in the way you "think" your WW would be most likely to grade your performance. Then, get working !!!
I have read the EN questionnaire and even filled mine out. Could not convince WW to do the same. I know that I can fulfill her EN's, but she has to allow me to, which she is not doing right now.
After finding out through e-blaster that they were still communicating, I became more interested in flexispy for her cell phone, but I called the company and her cell phone is not compatible... any other software out there which could work? Her cell phone is a Palm Treo 755p.
Can you microwave her cell phone? And when she discovers it doesn't work, buy her a phone that IS compatible w/ flexspy?
Steve, it's imperative you find this guys family. Notice he says he "likes" her. He's in a protective bubble. you can't hurt him, so he thinks. You have to make your WW not worth his trouble. If he "loved" her he would have answered the phone to tell you what for. When you invade his space, when you cause him discomfort, when you approach his people, that's when he will run like the weasel he is. He has stepped into your word, now go into his. GF
Ok, I think I may have found something but not 100% sure yet. Did a background check on the OM and it popped with a marriage record and no divorce record. Trying some other searching to see what I can uncover.
Ok, I think I may have found something but not 100% sure yet. Did a background check on the OM and it popped with a marriage record and no divorce record. Trying some other searching to see what I can uncover.
Since I know they are still communicating, I feel there is nothing I can do at this point without having the knowledge of the book.
The book is going to just give you an outline of an affair, why they occur and how to recover the marriage after the affair ends. It doesn't really get into HOW to kill the affair. We can help you with that.
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I am home for two more days with her now and it's difficult. BTW, I did not allow her to sleep in our bed last night. I told her that if she didn't want to be here, then I didn't want her sleeping in my bed. That really made her mad, but she went and slept on the couch. Should I continue this?
Nononno, get her back in your bed! Be as sweet as possible. You want to attract her back into the marriage.
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At this point, I don't think trying to fill her EN's is going to do me one bit of good. They are being filled by OM, and she is not even receptive to my attempts.
This is true. She won't allow you to meet her needs. The best you can do is avoid lovebusters and use every opportunity to show her how attractive you can be.
Ok, I think I may have found something but not 100% sure yet. Did a background check on the OM and it popped with a marriage record and no divorce record. Trying some other searching to see what I can uncover.
Good footwork!! Here are the next steps, Steve. We first need to get proof of the affair. I think you will get this by the end of the week via eblaster. You might want to also consider putting a voice activated recorder in her car to pick up her phone conversations. These are relatively cheap at Radio Shack. GEt the digital recorders and put this under her car seat.
Once you get evidence of the affair, the next step is exposure. Exposure is the most potent weapon against the affair. Dr Harley calls it the most important step towards recovery. But it must be done strategically.
For example, you will want to do your exposures in one day. This is done to get a tsunami effect and to prevent the affairees from pre-empting you and spinning the story.
The affair should be exposed to the following:
1. OM's wife, parents and facebook friends 2. yours and your wife parents 3. close friends and family 4. any children who are old enough to understand the concept of adultery
With your parents, close friends and family, you would tell them about the affair, tell them you are trying to save your marriage and --------->real important-----> ask their advice. Asking for their advice tends get their buy in. Ask them to use their influence to persuade your WW to end her affair.
With the OM's parents [I would call them] ask them to use their influence to persuade their son to leave your wife alone. This is a POWERFUL exposure becasue it destroys any future for your wife in this family. If they know who she is, she won't ever be welcome there and your WW will be afraid to meet them.
Another powerful exposure is to the OM's facebook friends. We have an awesome template that can be sent out to his fb friends. We can talk when we get to this point and I will give you more details.
Ok, Mel, I'll chalk that up to a bad decision and let her back in bed.
We sat and talked to a little while today. She enrolled in counseling and starts on Wednesday. I was here when she was on the phone with the counselor. I know you said marriage counselors will drive her away, but at this point she is already determined to go. Still trying to get something set up over the phone through this site.
During our conversation today she told me a lot of the same she has been telling me... I loved you for the wrong reasons, I don't love you anymore, disagreeing to a divorce will only hurt our children more, etc. I kept calmly telling her that I want to keep our family together and for us to try to work on our marriage. I said to her again that I won't give into her requests for a divorce. She said even if we get back to where we were before she still wouldn't want to be here which makes absolutely no sense to me. How could you not want to be in a place where your family is happy.
In one of her chats with a friend of her's today asking how she was doing she replied angry and frustrated.
I have spent the better part of the afternoon researching dirt on the OM, but have not been able to turn up anything as of yet on whether or not he still married or divorced. Records only say he and another woman filed for a marriage license. Under divorce it says no records. While it is easy to believe that must mean he's married. There's something suspicious about addresses of the two individuals now being in FL and AR, which leads me to believe they are divorced, just can't prove it. I hope like hell they are still married. What fun that would be!
If SHE won't fill out the EN questionnaire, YOU fill it out (alone) for her and try and guess what her top needs are based on some of the things she's been telling you. She may not respond, probably won't, but you keep going... UNLESS something you're doing is making her angry, then it turns into a LoveBuster (LB) (except for snooping and exposure), and then you stop whatever it is you're doing that is making her angry.
We sat and talked to a little while today. She enrolled in counseling and starts on Wednesday. I was here when she was on the phone with the counselor. I know you said marriage counselors will drive her away, but at this point she is already determined to go. Still trying to get something set up over the phone through this site.
oh boy. This is not good. An IC does not understand how fogged out an affairee is and helps them make permanent decisions based on very foggy, temporary feelings.
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uring our conversation today she told me a lot of the same she has been telling me... I loved you for the wrong reasons, I don't love you anymore, disagreeing to a divorce will only hurt our children more, etc. I kept calmly telling her that I want to keep our family together and for us to try to work on our marriage. I said to her again that I won't give into her requests for a divorce. She said even if we get back to where we were before she still wouldn't want to be here which makes absolutely no sense to me. How could you not want to be in a place where your family is happy.
This is straight out of the wayward textbook. It means nothing. She is high on the addiction of an affair and is rewriting history to justify her affair. Do not pay any attention to any of this!! Surely you see how insane her comments are: "disagreeing to a divorce will only hurt our children more.." As if divorce is good for your kids! Surely you can see how insane her narrative is?
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In one of her chats with a friend of her's today asking how she was doing she replied angry and frustrated.
Good! You are wrecking her fantasy very effectively!
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I have spent the better part of the afternoon researching dirt on the OM, but have not been able to turn up anything as of yet on whether or not he still married or divorced. Records only say he and another woman filed for a marriage license. Under divorce it says no records. While it is easy to believe that must mean he's married. There's something suspicious about addresses of the two individuals now being in FL and AR, which leads me to believe they are divorced, just can't prove it. I hope like hell they are still married. What fun that would be!
Can you get a home phone # on him? If you can, you might call it and disguise your # using *67 and see if a woman answers or is on the machine.
Just be clear, that you want to save the marriage, but if she doesn't want to she is free to go. However, since the children came from the marriage and she wants to abandon the marriage, the position you are taking is she is choosing to abandon EVERYTHING associated with the marriage. So if she is trying to take the children as primary custodian, she is not being consistent with her view on leaving the marriage.
You are not forcing her to stay, but her choice to leave has a very high cost.
She is free to go, you cannot fight her on that. But if she wants to take parts of the marriage with her, then she is not being consistent, and you will fight to keep the children in a pro-family, pro-marriage environment.
You are willing to address any concerns or complaints. However, if she simply wants to leave, the door is open. However, that opening is only large enough for her and her suitcase and perhaps a set of car keys if she owns the car outright.
But should she leave, you are taking this as she is abandoning the marriage and all marital property and the children produced from the marriage.
As much as she would like to spin it as you are holding her against her will, explain that she is the one who wants to leave the marriage, and that she is free to leave the marriage. But the marriage to you means she is not just leaving you, but the children and the assets.
Make it clear how you define the marriage, what she is doing, and the cost to do what she wants to do. It costs her everything to leave.
That's the only way to pause this. Make sure your attorney has the information you've already gathered. Should she attempt to get a restraining order, you may not be able to process that information if you are kicked out of your home. I'd protect myself with a recorder carried on person, so you can document any verbal exchanges, but try to do as much as possible via e-mail. Especially the parts about your view on what she is doing. By documenting that you are not holding her against her will, and that what she wants is to essentially abandon the marriage may protect you should she try legal action against you.
As one who let my XW take my child with her, I cannot stress what a mistake that was. Listen to me. You need to not only stay in the marital home (which I did) but not allow your WW to take the children out of that home for more than just weekend visits. I would not allow her to ever take them out of the marital home until there was a temporary custody agreement, and that it was only for every other weekend.
Again, stressing that if she feels trapped or that she made a mistake, the cell door is open, she can leave. She simply cannot just take the kids because she felt she made a mistake. The kids need a stable environment, and remaining in the marital home with you is a more stable environment than following her during her affair fantasy.
We sat and talked to a little while today. She enrolled in counseling and starts on Wednesday. I was here when she was on the phone with the counselor. I know you said marriage counselors will drive her away, but at this point she is already determined to go. Still trying to get something set up over the phone through this site.
oh boy. This is not good. An IC does not understand how fogged out an affairee is and helps them make permanent decisions based on very foggy, temporary feelings.
I agree...we went to MC and NOTHING he said could help, want to know why? Because I LIED TO OUR MC!
Your wife will lye to her IC and manipulate him so he would say "your right, you should leave this guy!"
Ok, so a mutual friend of ours today told me and WW that since we are getting nowhere by continuing to live together, that maybe she should move out without the kids for awhile to see exactly what it would be like if she continued down this road. She recommended WW get an evening job so I could have the kids when I get home and she is working and she could see them during the day while I was at work. Though she would have to come to our home to see them.
Thought here is to allow her to experience a little bit of life outside the home and being away from her children.
I am not saying I'm for this, I'm throwing it out there to check your thoughts and recommendations on this.
Too easy. She can move out and have the children Every Other Weekend if she no longer wants the marriage.
You have to make it as difficult as possible for her to get her way.
If your objective is to have a "nice divorce" then follow the plan your mutual friend suggested. If you want to wreck the affair and build a marriage, then you have to make the costs of continuing the affair very high for her.
You are in plan A correct? If so then I would not have your wife leave the home, she will find out exactly what she will miss once you get into plan B, so although your friends advice is very tempting do not go there until you are ready for plan B.
Your friend just offered a place for your wife, so when you are ready you can go to her and see if her offer still stands? Until then KEEP DOING PLAN A, and work your @$$ off doing it.
Ok thanks for the thoughts. I will not discuss this with her.
Steve, separation will be your last resort, not your first resort. It may come to pass in the future, but there is way too much opportunity to try first.
I predict this affair [along with her desire to separate] will quickly evaporate when reality sets in. There are way too many logistical problems here. First off, the OM is not going to want to support your wife and she cant support herself. Secondly, your wife knows you will not cooperate, so that adds an insurmountable problem.
If you can get her on the phone with Steve Harley, he will tell her that the BEST solution is to be in love with her husband. He will try and sell her on the logic of that plan while he emphasizes the impossibility of a future with the OM.
Really? How many marriages has your mutual friend saved from adultery? Steve Harvey has saved marriages. You are good to have the appointment with him. Ignore your mutual friends. They mean well, but if they want to help, they should be enlisted to talk to your WW about ending her affair with a man in another state whom she knows virtually nothing about. This will be covered in Exposure 101.
Enlightened has excellent words for you; you are getting good free advice here. Different sitch, but I got some of the same advice; for one reason or another wasn't able to follow it all. And guess what? - my D will be final in 31 days.
Originally Posted by Steve
We sat and talked to a little while today. She enrolled in counseling and starts on Wednesday.
I agree with the others. Vehemently. Her IC will fill her with even more of a sense of entitlement. You might not be able to stop her from going, but don't pay the co-pay. Offer to get her counseling with someone "who has had a lot of success with this type of thing" - tell her she doesn't have to commit to anything, but it would be worth it just to "look into the possibility." [I'll get my friend Limbo to help out here - he's been working on getting his WW to partake in some MB counseling]
Side note: I went to MC with WW (stbx) for months before I found this site. The affair was thriving until I was advised to expose. I didn't do it perfectly, but I sure as he11 did a better job killing the affair than "M"C did. These people simply don't understand that you have to take the crack pipe away from the addict before any progress can be made in stopping the addiction. They just don't get it. They'd rather look at the root cause of becoming addicted/wayward/whatever and it doesn't work.
Steve, I know there's so much info coming in. Do your best to process it and act accordingly. This is not going to be fixed overnight. It took you years to get here to this wretched place, be patient and start laying down foundation for what will be a beautiful wonderful marriage in a year or two with a couple of fantastic little kids. That reminds me: your WW doesn't think it's possible for you to ever reconcile or to get back to a place of being in love. (right?). So point out that the day you got married, she never dreamed it was possible that you would be thinking of divorce either. See the logic? So any thing's possible. I got this directly from Steve H when I was in my plan A.
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She said even if we get back to where we were before she still wouldn't want to be here which makes absolutely no sense to me. How could you not want to be in a place where your family is happy.
Okay, I've been here almost a year and I've never given a 2x4. (that's when we beat someone over the head for stepping out of line). So here goes: Didn't I tell you not to listen to this non-sense? Seriously, you're doing well not to give into it, and pushing back with "I'm fighting for our marriage, that's what helps kids, divorce doesn't help kids" type stuff is really great. I found it exceedingly difficult not to listen to my ww (stbx)'s rationalizations of everything. She's very intelligent. But all the smarts are put toward saving their addiction to the fantasy ~ and they wind up doing and saying the stupidist things in the world.
Keep listening to Mel and the others. I can promise you your efforts will pay off one way or another. And don't forget to eat once in a while.
Thanks for the good advice, please keep it coming. Last night my WW grabbed a couple of pillows preparing to sleep on the couch again. I told her kindly that she didn't have to sleep on the couch, and that I really would like her to come back to sleep in our bed. And she did, but like everything else we don't talk and if I try to initiate conversation she is short with me, but not disrespectful. I can tell by her response and her tone that she is frustrated with me right now and would prefer just not to communicate with me. How very frustrating when you are trying to save a marriage. But I take a deep breath or two, or ten, whatever it takes and I keep on moving forward keeping as much of a positive mind and outlook as I can.
We took our DD to her first day of kindergarten today. Our little girl is growing up. Glad I could be home to experience it with my wife.
When we go home, I checked the mail and His Needs, Her Needs was sitting there waiting for me. I opened up and am already into chapter 2. Without much to do today, I suspect I'll get a good portion of it read today... Love Busters and Surviving An Affair should be here tomorrow. I am sure my wife won't read them, but I'll leave them out in plain view... maybe she'll get curious.
I guess one other concern I have is that I have been spending a lot of time on this computer lately, and rightfully so I suppose. Gathering as much information from this website and reading all of the information contained here and the great advice I have been receiving from you all. My concern is that I feel that I am not paying enough attention to my WW while spending all this time on the computer. Not sure how it makes her feel, but I imagine she is curious as to what I am doing on here.
And it starts again... remember in her last e-mail to OM she ended with goodbye again. And that was yesterday.
Here is this morning's e-mail to him:
"I thought the first day of kindergarten would be easier since she already went to pre-k. Not so much."
I went with her to take our DD to her first day of school, and I asked her how it made her feel, and got nothing in reply. So she runs to OM to express her feelings. This is really frustrating.
I went with her to take our DD to her first day of school, and I asked her how it made her feel, and got nothing in reply. So she runs to OM to express her feelings. This is really frustrating.
I know this is tough. You are doing good, though - keep it up. Asking her to sleep in your bed was a good move. Keep asking the questions, keep trying to engage her. She may not respond and she may seem cold, but it's hard to stay cold at someone who is warm, welcoming and loving. You will start to wear her down.
You may also expect some anger from her. She wont like you being nice to her - it makes it difficult for her to daemonize you in her mind and justify what she is doing. It will create conflict within her. Recognize it for what it is - her fighting with herself. Her anger will reflect that you're making an impact.
Keep researching, and keep plan Aing - Meet as many of her needs as you can.
She keeps saying goodbye - but you must realize, she is an addict. Every time she talks to OM chemicals are released in her brain, giving the satisfaction of another 'high'. She is no different than a crack addict. She is physically UNABLE to break contact. You gotta make the stakes of continuing contact so high that she has no other choice.
Keep it up - get smart about this. It's great that you got the books, they will open up your eyes.
Also - turn off the computer when your wife is around. Try to focus on her. Also, being on the computer might make her curious as to what you're doing - you DON'T want her to find this place. So when you can, and when she is around - be PRESENT with her.
Yeah, plan A is frusterating. To help preleive yourself from this frusteration you have to get rid of any expectations a normal loving DW would do. Expecting her to tell you how she feels about DD first day of kindergarten? Forget about it. Even if she does answer with how she feels they will be lies targeted at you.
However, this does not mean you should stop trying to get her to talk about her feelings. That is why plan A is frusterating. you gotta try to be the best husband and have no expectations that a normal DW would do.
Another thing I would do to get over the frusteration was forcing myself to think and act positively. I would get up each day and tell myself an affirmation like: "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog gonnit people like me." This really helped me out. Even though it was way hard at the time I tried to change my mindset.
One more thing that helps is to vent the problems here, and with some guy friends of yours that do not know your wife very well.
And it starts again... remember in her last e-mail to OM she ended with goodbye again. And that was yesterday.
Here is this morning's e-mail to him:
"I thought the first day of kindergarten would be easier since she already went to pre-k. Not so much."
I went with her to take our DD to her first day of school, and I asked her how it made her feel, and got nothing in reply. So she runs to OM to express her feelings. This is really frustrating.
I told you don't believe them saying "goodbyes" just keep going in plan A. Just remember that YOU have a plan and she doesn't she is only going with the flow of her emotions and we all know that will end up a train wreck
Mel, looks like his most recent address listing shows up with no phone number, and the one prior to that is his Sister's house only 3 blocks away. This is a very small town that OM lives in.
Not sure how to pin him down if I can't locate a home number for him. I understand what you want me to though with that information. I just can't seem to find it.
I'm doing ok. I'm actually looking for a lawyer at the moment, and I really don't know how to go about this. I guess you file for divorce in the county that you live in? I don't really know, so right now I'm just making a long list from another much longer list and then I'll call some people.
I think you need to be at an attorneys office like yesterday. Even if you cannot file based on cause, you can make sure your attorney has any of the evidence you've collected so far. That way, if she tries to force you out with some sort of restraining order, you can document that was part of her plan to be with the other man.
If I were you, knowing what I know from experiencing a WW, I'd file first, file for remaining in the home, and if she wants the divorce, she can leave, leave the children, etc.
Filing for divorce doesn't mean you'll get one. But if you are the one asking, and if you are filing for cause if that's allowed, that puts you in the drivers seat with respect to the time table.
I'm doing ok. I'm actually looking for a lawyer at the moment, and I really don't know how to go about this. I guess you file for divorce in the county that you live in? I don't really know, so right now I'm just making a long list from another much longer list and then I'll call some people.
Hmmmm, looks like he IS married. And is looking to D his W.
The way that he used the word "actually" makes it sound as though they hadn't discussed this earlier??
Funny how he didn't mention your WW's unhappiness about sending your DD to school. He just jumped in w/ what is concerning him about his life. Almost like, "who cares about your problems...I've got my own concerns."
Steve, I'm betting he has a wife with a family cell plan. Her number may be similar to his. Try his cell number, but go up one digit or down one digit from his phone number. We have had 2 different carriers and both times my H and I have had numbers one digit apart. EG 555-1234, 555-1233, 555-1235, might work out for you. I'm also betting that your WW's divorce announcement will cool him off a bit. OM don't like it when the playing field is no longer even. GF
Marshmellow, that e-mail was from my wife to him... she is the one looking for a lawyer. I did walk into the room and she told me what she was doing. She would prefer that we work this out without lawyers to avoid a costly divorce. I am the only one with an income at this point. That money has got to come from somewhere.
Florida is a no-fault state so my understanding is that reason for divorce does not matter.
I'm doing ok. I'm actually looking for a lawyer at the moment, and I really don't know how to go about this. I guess you file for divorce in the county that you live in? I don't really know, so right now I'm just making a long list from another much longer list and then I'll call some people.
I think that's his WW's e-mail to the OM. If I understand, it's the WW looking for an attorney and a divorce. I'll read it again, but I think the WW is looking to file and file soon.
Hmmmm, looks like he IS married. And is looking to D his W.
The way that he used the word "actually" makes it sound as though they hadn't discussed this earlier??
Funny how he didn't mention your WW's unhappiness about sending your DD to school. He just jumped in w/ what is concerning him about his life. Almost like, "who cares about your problems...I've got my own concerns."
Marshmellow, that e-mail was from my wife to him... she is the one looking for a lawyer. I did walk into the room and she told me what she was doing. She would prefer that we work this out without lawyers to avoid a costly divorce. I am the only one with an income at this point. That money has got to come from somewhere.
Florida is a no-fault state so my understanding is that reason for divorce does not matter.
I'm also betting that your WW's divorce announcement will cool him off a bit. OM don't like it when the playing field is no longer even. GF
Going Forward, I am not sure I am following you here... wouldn't OM be happy that WW is moving forward with divorce. Frees WW up to be with him. Maybe it kills the fantasy of being together, but after she is divorced they will be able to be together all they want.
Make sure you are not giving her any MONEY! When my husband heard about the affair he started separating our joint accounts, he just got rid of our joint and opened up another one for him, so I suggest you start doing the same, if she has no money let her know, "if you want to act single then by all means live like a single person, I am no longer going to support you in having an affair." My husband didn't say anything to me about this, he just DID IT! Am I mad? NO! I had my own accounts for my business and really didn't think about it. My husband was very smart about changing accounts.
That's easy enough, if she wants to leave, she can leave. You'll let her have the children every other weekend. Since she's the one who wants to end the marriage, all she has to do is leave, and sign the agreement your attorney will present and she'll be free as she wants to be.
This is not the time to be nice. I'm not saying be mean. I'm saying don't expect her to look out for the best interests of anyone but herself. She's not looking out for the kids, or you.
It's best her exposure to the children and you is minimal as long as she's in the wayward mindset.
If she succeeds in getting primary custody of the children, and staying in the home, your pretty much cooked.
So make it clear, and document it, that you meant what you said when you took your vows, that marriage was forever, that this home and family the two of you built is part of that vow. Just because she wants out is no reason for you to give up living in the home and being with your children every single day.
Stay on point. Make it clear that if she really means what she's saying, that she wants out, that you can make that happen. However, you are not willing to pay the cost of her choosing to renege on her vow. The decision to leave is entirely hers. However, she will not take the home or the children without a fight.
You are taking the stand that vows mean things, and by choosing divorce, she is breaking her vows. That's no reason for you to lose primary custody of your children.
Don't be mean, don't curse, yell, etc. Deliver that message as lovingly as possible. Via e-mail if possible, to document her response when you go to your attorney, which should be this afternoon if you are not already on the way there.
Also, I would not let her know what you know about the affair. Make it about her behavior at this point. You can talk to your lawyer about the proof of the affair. He'll know what to do.
Stay on point, that you meant your vows, you love her, and if she continues on the course, she is damaging the family and breaking her vows. Make it clear she is free to go, as you cannot hold her against her will. Make it equally clear that you expect the same courtesy, that she not force you or the children to leave the home simply because she no longer honors her vows.
Try not to despair. Just remember that waywards are so focused on getting their next fix. She is likely not 100% committed to D yet but a) trying to get you to back off and give her more space and b) trying to get OM to respond to her.
Just read your whole thread. I�ve been in your shoes with the exception that you�re actually doing everything I wish I had done. The WW fog babble is nearly identical to the stuff I heard, with the same justifications. My WW saw that I was actually serious about forgiving her infidelity and doing what was necessary to save the marriage, but she threw me when she told me, �the only way we could have a chance of being together again is if we divorce amicably and have time to heal.�
I was in a very weak state of mind, having just returned from a deployment, and I fell for it. She basically took everything and it took a massive legal battle to secure my rights as a father.
The decision to divorce or stay together is ultimately yours. You haven�t said anything about your WW that makes me think that things aren�t salvageable. So press forward hard with Plan A, Plan B if necessary.
That being said:
Protect yourself legally. Get a lawyer immediately and provide her with the emails you have. You have a right to have that software on your computer since it is joint marital property. You can put any kind of program there. The evidence may not be admissible, but you may be able to use it during discovery.
Also, think hard about filing first as a protection. File on grounds for adultery. The legal process is slow and it is very advantageous of you to file first (if your lawyer says so).
Some of the success stories on this board are from men who filed and protected themselves until WW came to her senses.
If you don�t wish to file first, then be ready to respond with an immediate order that the children be kept in the marital home. Do not lose your cool or your temper, but any time she talks about D, tell her you only talk about marriage. If she pushes, let her know that D will neither be easy or amicable and it is a road you�re not willing to go. Let it be clear that you will not let the children be taken from you and you�d rather put your efforts into fixing your marriage but that you will fight for custody of the kids, especially if she�s having an affair.
Part of my WW�s fantasy was that she and I would be friends after our D. We�re anything but. I feel indifferent towards her now, but that�s 5 years after the fact. You�ll go through all the emotions of detachment in a D which involve despair, depression, anger, rage, hopelessness, and fear. None of it is good.
But you�re being smart, my friend. Under no circumstances are you to reveal that you have spyware on the computer. I made that mistake and it only served to send her further underground, it eliminated my sources of intelligence, and gave her ideas on how to turn it around on me.
Finally, pay $100 to a PI and get all the info you need on OM. They�ll provide you with all you need by using tools you don�t have easy access to. This will help you with eventual exposure, which will be explosive.
Just a heads up on that: exposure will drive her nuts beyond belief. She will tell you that you�re just being vindictive, are out to ruin her rep, and destroyed any chance you had to save your marriage. This fear keeps many bs�es from acting and exposing, but it works.
Her anger eventually subsided, but exposure is sometimes enough to drive the OM away, especially if his family or wife is involved.
You have his email, name, and facebook page. That�s enough info for any good PI to get you the goods.
Find out if Florida has an alienation of affection law and threaten to file one.
Bottomline: retain a lawyer and be prepared to play offense. Gather your evidence. You�re being very smart and I commend you for it.
You�re acting for your kids and for you. The WW is an alien. She�s not the woman you know or married.
She would prefer that we work this out without lawyers to avoid a costly divorce. I am the only one with an income at this point. That money has got to come from somewhere.
Steve, she would prefer that you cooperate with her intended destruction of your marriage. Just stick to your plan and tell her you are not interested. She can file if she wants but you won't cooperate. Tell her you will cooperate only with repairing the marriage.
Also, she has no money and no income so how is she going to file? Waywards rarely file for divorce. More often they talk about it alot.
Try not to despair. Just remember that waywards are so focused on getting their next fix. She is likely not 100% committed to D yet but a) trying to get you to back off and give her more space and b) trying to get OM to respond to her.
I agree 100%.
Her email sounded weak, w/ "I guess" "I don't know" "I'm just.."
Finally, pay $100 to a PI and get all the info you need on OM. They�ll provide you with all you need by using tools you don�t have easy access to. This will help you with eventual exposure, which will be explosive.
Do this.
OM did NOT like when you called him, nor did he like the idea of having to go to court for a woman he only "likes".
A little more pressure from you and I bet he'll bail.
Part of the nuclear exposure bomb, when you get there, will involve opening a new bank account in your name only and putting all of your family's money into it.
This will protect you and your kids. Again, I say this from experience and from having seen it on these boards. A WW will clean you out.
I trusted mine because "she just wouldn't do such a thing." But she withdrew most funds from our account into one she had for herself.
She wiped me out while smiling at me and telling me we had a chance to be together someday. I'm telling you that WW'es are among the most evil and cunning creatures you've ever met.
So be ready to protect your finances and get another account ready. You can often set it up easily with USAA if you use them.
One of my FB posted a warning about checking if your personal info is on it. I went there and punched in my name and sure enough it had all my info, spouse's name, phone no, even a picture of my house or street or something. I got it taken off but a lot of people don't know about it yet...
Mel, our accounts are joint... she will just use joint accounts to pay.
Go to the bank TODAY. And close the joint accounts and move the money into an account w/ just your name.
YES, do this - if she wants a divorce SHE must pay for it. Stick to your mantra "I will not support the destruction of this family". She should NOT use family money to tear it apart.
She needs some reality.
This isn't going to be sweet and pretty like in the movies.
She wants to go out and meet other guys, she is going to do it single, without her kids, and working a job to pay her bills.
You only support the FAMILY, not her affair.
Close the account, protect the money.
She'll be mad - but right now she isn't trustworthy.
One of my FB posted a warning about checking if your personal info is on it. I went there and punched in my name and sure enough it had all my info, spouse's name, phone no, even a picture of my house or street or something. I got it taken off but a lot of people don't know about it yet...
Mel, our accounts are joint... she will just use joint accounts to pay.
Steve, I would go quietly open another account and move most of the money out of your joint accounts. Leave just enough to pay the bills and buy food in the joint account. Can you go down to the bank and do this ASAP?
One of my FB posted a warning about checking if your personal info is on it. I went there and punched in my name and sure enough it had all my info, spouse's name, phone no, even a picture of my house or street or something. I got it taken off but a lot of people don't know about it yet...
I tried this just now... he doesn't show up, but my ww does... even a picture of our house.
[/quote] Steve, I would go quietly open another account and move most of the money out of your joint accounts. Leave just enough to pay the bills and buy food in the joint account. Can you go down to the bank and do this ASAP?
She WILL wipe you out if you don't. [/quote]
I bank with USAA which is in TX. Can't just drive there. I'll call them, but I am almost for certain neither one of us can close the account since it is joint. We would both have to sign something. What I could do with withdrawl most of the money, open an account at another bank... Navy Federal for example and deposit it there. Then change my direct deposit to the other bank, and only fund the account with money she needs for regular expenses, groceries, gas, etc. I pay all the bills through automatic payment plans, so I would need to change all of those as well.
What I could do with withdrawl most of the money, open an account at another bank... Navy Federal for example and deposit it there. Then change my direct deposit to the other bank, and only fund the account with money she needs for regular expenses, groceries, gas, etc. I pay all the bills through automatic payment plans, so I would need to change all of those as well.
It can take up to a month to verify that all automatic payments are also transferred. Things that I auto pay are car loan, mortgage, gas and electric, etc. They all have to be moved over, don't want them extracting money from an account that has no money in it. Use a bank statement to determine who auto-pays from your account and contact them all to change accounts.
One of my FB posted a warning about checking if your personal info is on it. I went there and punched in my name and sure enough it had all my info, spouse's name, phone no, even a picture of my house or street or something. I got it taken off but a lot of people don't know about it yet...
How did you get it taken off?
That same FB posting had the instructions. I think there is fine print at the bottom with a link to a form to get it removed. It's been a while since I did it...HTH!
One of my FB posted a warning about checking if your personal info is on it. I went there and punched in my name and sure enough it had all my info, spouse's name, phone no, even a picture of my house or street or something. I got it taken off but a lot of people don't know about it yet...
How did you get it taken off?
That same FB posting had the instructions. I think there is fine print at the bottom with a link to a form to get it removed. It's been a while since I did it...HTH!
Forgive me if you have already posted, but do you have his phone #? If so, you should be able to get a report at intelius on who the phone is registered to and also that report should have the address. I did this for OW1 and OW2 and it worked for both. It was $15 at the time...
I use that same bank. You can open up an account in your name only online. You could leave your pay going into the current joint account and then move your pay from the account the DFAS has into the other account. Also, if you have payments coming out of the joint account, you could move money back in. It can easily be done online. I move money from one account to another all the time, keeping the original account for the direct deposit.
Ok next topic: she just left the house so I was snooping around the computer room and I found that she completed the ENQ. I am going to post the results, and some of it is a little personal to me:
Top 5 Ranked in Order
1. Honesty and Openess: Need: 6 out 6 Very Unhappy, Extremely Dissatisfied, not open and honest with me.
Comment: You are rarely ever open with me and it took me a few years to learn that you lie very easily and I can't even tell. This makes me question a lot of the things that you say which I think in turn makes you aggrevated with me
2. Conversation: Need 5 out of 6. Very Unhappy. Extrmely Dissatisfied. Not enough conversation and when we do it is not the way I like it
Comments: Don't walk when I am speaking to you. At least try to listen when I am telling you about a problem. Don't blow me off or make some negative comment about why I shouldn't feel the way that I do. Talk to me about what is going on with you.
3. Affection: Need 6 of 6. Somewhat unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough affection and when he tries it's not the way I like it.
Comments: I don't know.
4. Admiration: Need 6 of 6. Very Unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough admiration and when he tries it is not the way I like it.
Comments: Sometimes I feel like the only thing you admire me for is sex.
5. Recreational Companionship: Need:6 of 6. Very Unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough recreational companionship and when he tries it is not the way I like it.
Comments: I don't want you to do things with me and the kids if you don't really want to. Going somewhere with you being miserable is worse than going by ourselves.
Ok those are the top 5 she focused on. I think I have a gold mine in my hands right now, but what I really need from you all is to coach me on how to start impacting the necessary changes with everything that you already know. After reflecting back on our marriage over the past 10 days since she told me she wanted to leave, I can honestly agree that nearly every feeling she states here is spot on. Still does not give her the right to have an affair, and she should have spoken about these problems to me sooner. Maybe she did and I didn't listen or understand. But I really want to save my marriage, and I know it can be done if she buys in. I know I have to expose the affair, but while I am gathering intel, what do you recommend to get me on the path to meeting her top needs?
I use that same bank. You can open up an account in your name only online. You could leave your pay going into the current joint account and then move your pay from the account the DFAS has into the other account. Also, if you have payments coming out of the joint account, you could move money back in. It can easily be done online. I move money from one account to another all the time, keeping the original account for the direct deposit.
Steve, alot of these things she cites are actually HER FAULT, not yours. For example, under Rec companionship she wrote [quote]I don't want you to do things with me and the kids if you don't really want to. Going somewhere with you being miserable is worse than going by ourselves.
This begs the question: why was she taking you places you didn't want to go to?? Apparently she made plans without your input [independent behavior] or you agreed to something you did not want to do if you were "miserable."
I think some of this is legitimate, but keep in mind 2 key things:
1. you aren't going to be very successful at meeting her needs now because she won't let you
2. The top 4 intimate emotional needs are going to make the FASTEST love bank deposits, ie: conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment
Openess and honesty is going to make very minor lb deposits becasue that does not build intimacy which leads to romantic love. We have lots of people on this forum who are or whose spouses are in love with very dishonest people. So, while you need to avoid the lovebuster of dishonesty, the needs you should focus all your attention on are:
conversation, affection, rec companionship [without kids!] and sexual fulfillment
armymama... mission complete. Created new accounts. Now to start updating bills and direct deposit. BTW I left enough in the checking account to cover upcoming bills for the next few weeks until everything gets due time to change over. Then I will drain the account down to only necessary expenses for the home and kids.
Also need to work on our joint investment accounts.
armymama... mission complete. Created new accounts. Now to start updating bills and direct deposit. BTW I left enough in the checking account to cover upcoming bills for the next few weeks until everything gets due time to change over. Then I will drain the account down to only necessary expenses for the home and kids.
Also need to work on our joint investment accounts.
Ok next topic: she just left the house so I was snooping around the computer room and I found that she completed the ENQ. I am going to post the results, and some of it is a little personal to me:
Top 5 Ranked in Order
1. Honesty and Openess: Need: 6 out 6 Very Unhappy, Extremely Dissatisfied, not open and honest with me.
Comment: You are rarely ever open with me and it took me a few years to learn that you lie very easily and I can't even tell. This makes me question a lot of the things that you say which I think in turn makes you aggrevated with me
2. Conversation: Need 5 out of 6. Very Unhappy. Extrmely Dissatisfied. Not enough conversation and when we do it is not the way I like it
Comments: Don't walk when I am speaking to you. At least try to listen when I am telling you about a problem. Don't blow me off or make some negative comment about why I shouldn't feel the way that I do. Talk to me about what is going on with you.
3. Affection: Need 6 of 6. Somewhat unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough affection and when he tries it's not the way I like it.
Comments: I don't know.
4. Admiration: Need 6 of 6. Very Unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough admiration and when he tries it is not the way I like it.
Comments: Sometimes I feel like the only thing you admire me for is sex.
5. Recreational Companionship: Need:6 of 6. Very Unhappy. -2 of -3 dissatisfied. not enough recreational companionship and when he tries it is not the way I like it.
Comments: I don't want you to do things with me and the kids if you don't really want to. Going somewhere with you being miserable is worse than going by ourselves.
Ok those are the top 5 she focused on. I think I have a gold mine in my hands right now, but what I really need from you all is to coach me on how to start impacting the necessary changes with everything that you already know. After reflecting back on our marriage over the past 10 days since she told me she wanted to leave, I can honestly agree that nearly every feeling she states here is spot on. Still does not give her the right to have an affair, and she should have spoken about these problems to me sooner. Maybe she did and I didn't listen or understand. But I really want to save my marriage, and I know it can be done if she buys in. I know I have to expose the affair, but while I am gathering intel, what do you recommend to get me on the path to meeting her top needs?
Here is a *LINK* to something Doormat-No-More (DoNoMo) wrote about how he handled his WW's needs. He would be an excellent resource person for you in this regard. Mark1952 would be an excellent resource as well.
Later, when you have the time, you might start a "call out" thread to these wonderful guys.
I have used the analogy of walking around in a blizzard without a coat on to demonstrate some of what you described. When we are cold and fighting to remain alive, getting warm is our only real need. Nothing else even matters if we intend to survive the ordeal. This is why Openness and Honesty is typically the TOP EN of most BS when the chance to examine them and rank them according to importance first takes place.
But once we get inside by the fire and begin to warm up a bit, we might find that we are also quite thirsty because while we struggled against the cold we didn't even consider drinking a bunch of fluids to keep ourselves hydrated. It paled in importance when compared to getting to a place of shelter so we could get warm.
After we have satisfied our thirst, we might realize that we are also pretty hungry since eating too had taken a back seat during our struggle to survive and find shelter. We also expended a huge number of calories just trying to keep enough warmth to stave off hypothermia and maintain enough brain function to find a solution to our ordeal. This is why we "shiver" when cold, BTW. It is our body's way of burning more calories to generate warmth. It is a sign that our core is cooling rapidly and we need to find a place to warm up right away.
Then after we have had a meal, we find that we are quite tired. In fact we feel so exhausted that we can hardly imagine the things we know we already went through. Nothing else matters now except getting some rest and we fall asleep quickly, our minds finally getting some peace as well as our body's beginning to recuperate from the exertion.
When we are going about our daily lives we don't even think about the air we breathe. We inhale, exhale and go on with what we are doing. But if our air supply is suddenly cut off, we suddenly need and want nothing more than to get our next breath.
Needs can and DO change according to circumstances as well as based on what is or is not being met at the moment. Keep in mind that the same is true for your wife. If SR is struggling with something the kids are doing, FC is likely to move up her list. If she has to go a week without being able to get everything she wanted to get at the grocery store, FS might be her top EN. If she is struggling with something she wants to discuss with you, Conversation might be at the head of her list.
Generally, based on what our actual top ENs really are, they will quickly move back into the top 5 once the circumstances have changed. Also remember that there are 4 ENs that are a bit unique. Called the Intimate Emotional Needs by Dr Harley, they are SF, Affection, Conversation and Recreational Companionship. These 4 are special because they are signs of intimacy between you and your wife and are in fact the very things that help to create intimacy in your life together. Typically two of these 4 will be among your top 5 just about all the time except under specific circumstances related to a crisis situation that needs addressing immediately. Just like getting warm can be more important than eating when you are freezing to death but once the crisis is passed, things like thirst and hunger and sleep are what drive you every day of your life. Emotional needs are very much like physical needs in that regard.
Once we feel warm and safe again, we are content to focus on what we need on a day to day basis and not worry about things that are not pressing. But this is why we need to make sure we are striving to meet the needs of our spouse as well because if we get too complacent in our own satisfaction, we tend to lose focus on what we ourselves don't really need at the moment.
1. O&H, that takes time, and given her condition, even if you were 1000% honest, she won't accept it initially. This is largely an impression and will be impervious to facts. Besides, how does one prove they are not lying?
2. Conversation. NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS! If she's willing to talk, you may be able to make some traction here. As you can see by her comments, she doesn't like the way you do it. Part of that can be the affair as I'm sure she tells him he's so easy to talk to. One of the best things you can do to be a good conversationalist is to be a good listener. Let the conversation go where she wants to go, empathize, listen not just for facts, but how she feels about things. It's hard to complain about someone who will listen to you, appears engaged and is willing to share, but not be selfish in the conversation.
3. Affection: So what does she want? Assuming that she even wants you to be affectionate at this point. Perhaps watch and see how she's affectionate with the children and practice that same sort of thing with them. Affection by proxy. Watch how she delivers affection to family, the children for clues on what she wants. Don't expect affection (or anything really) to lead to sex at this point.
4. Admiration: You might be able to score some points here. I suspect it will be hard as what she's doing is difficult to admire. Again, watch how she admires others. Does she offer any admiration of the OM in her e-mails? If so, that may be a clue how she expects admiration to be delivered to her. The tendency is for people to do for others what they want done for themselves. That's why watching her conversations, her admiration and her affection gestures will help you hone your skills on meeting those needs for her.
5. Recreational Companionship. This is probably your best bet as you may be able to do the same sorts of things you did when you got married. The additional advantage here is if you are out on dates with your wife, she will find it difficult to be engaged with the OM. So what sort of things did you do when you first dated that she really liked. Get a sitter for the kids, take her out and do those things with her with no expectations.
Mel, our accounts are joint... she will just use joint accounts to pay.
Go to the bank TODAY. And close the joint accounts and move the money into an account w/ just your name.
Get a legal opinion first. I am not a lawyer. You may need to file first before an account becomes sole and separate property. In some community property states, a sole account is still part of the community assets.
So when she got home I brought up the fact that I found her ENQ and I explained to her how valuable the information was and that I would like the opportunity to start working on filling her EN's. I thought it kind of hit her, becuase I dropped it at that and then took DD out back to go swimming.
Just when I thought I might have lit a spark... I come back in and read this e-mail chain to OM
WW: It's been ok. XXXXX's home and he's not going back to work until Thursday and it's bugging the crap out of me. But other than that, it's been ok. I got DD from school so that was nice. I missed her and she won't even tell me what she did all day. How has your day been? What you up to?
OM: Mines been ok. Are y'all talking? I felt so bad for u yesterday
WW: Yeah, we're talking. Everybody keeps telling me to take the high road, so I'm trying not to add anymore anger/drama to the picture. XXXXX gave me lots of good advice yesterday. Things like he can't take my kids away for having an affair and especially not for just talking to someone.
OM: Yeah XXXXX called me and was like "u got something u wanna tell me?" I was like o ya btw lol he said y'all had a good talk.
WW: So I guess I'm still talking to you behind his back, but I don't feel quite so bad about it now. So what's going on with YOU?
OM: Well I'm glad ur talking to me. I def missed you. I'm good. Cut my hair!!! Still trying to figure out my next move. No clue.
I just want to mention that her ENQ is very directed towards convincing you that the marriage was hopeless. She is very invested into convincing you that you never should have gotten married, that you shouldn't stay married, and that the best thing for the kids is that you remain cordial and friendly during the divorce. She will try to convince you that you don't need lawyers -- you can use a mediator!
Her email to OM is to keep him on the line. She HAS to be in the process of divorce, otherwise he might lose interest.
I just want to mention that her ENQ is very directed towards convincing you that the marriage was hopeless. She is very invested into convincing you that you never should have gotten married, that you shouldn't stay married, and that the best thing for the kids is that you remain cordial and friendly during the divorce. She will try to convince you that you don't need lawyers -- you can use a mediator!
Her email to OM is to keep him on the line. She HAS to be in the process of divorce, otherwise he might lose interest.
I recall when I heard the accusations of my WW that I was very prone to taking her word. Here's a simple rule, Waywards LIE, period!
So nothing can be taken at face value. There may be kernels of truth, so you cannot casually throw things out. But things are also distorted (I.E. she lying) due to the fog of the affair. History is re-written, your real life character is compared to the fantasy she has of the OM, etc.
So you can neither rely on, nor dismiss what she's telling you. Words are cheap and easy to use even if she doesn't mean them. Actions are harder to fake, so you need to verify everything in terms of actions.
If she says you were dishonest, then all you can do is be honest. If she says you don't provide affection the way she wants it, part of it is she wants it the way the OM provides it. It's hard to fight that. So what you have to do is recall what works and watch what she's doing.
So I fall in the middle. It may be manipulation, an attempt to convince you the marriage was a mistake.
It may be her telling herself those things, in a way to justify what she's doing, talking herself into the validity of her actions. It likely also contains some distorted truth. Truth warped by the justifications, manipulations and fog of the affair.
So don't discard, but verify. And don't take it personally. I know, that's probably hardest.
Probably the best advice I would give you, other than running to the lawyer today. (You've done that, right?) Is not to react to everything you encounter. It will be emotionally exhausting, and you will not be able to run this marathon.
Act, and then only after deliberation. Like sleep on it before you react.
I was going to suggest NOT telling her you read the ENQ. Don't tell her you are going to try. That's about as valuable as what she's saying. Make a plan, then go to work.
Do you have a date night set up yet? That will help determine if she really wants RC, or if she's blowing smoke. What have you noticed about how she offers affection? What about how her family shows affection, one to another?
Conversation. Not about relationships, about other things. What did you talk about when dating?
Plan and act. Don't react to every new bit of intel you acquire. Not all of it is reliable.
Yep, surely understand you can't take everything at face value. I try to tell myself that everytime I see another e-mail exhange between WW and OM.
We had a date night last Saturday that bombed completely... she was just not committed to it. I am trying to get her to do something again, something we both would like to do that would be interactive, more like recreational companionship than a date.
Have you read this? *LINK* to The Wayward Script. Pay particular attention to "The Blame Game" (You'll need to scroll down to read it)
Quote
THE BLAME GAME
By now, you should be aware that all of this MUST be your spouses fault, however, your spouse may not understand this completely yet, so you need to start planting the seeds.
There are several ingenious ways to put the blame on your spouse, and we will be exploring them all.
Method 1: The Non-Blame Statement
I'm trying not to blame YOU
This statement implies that you are "not putting the blame on them" but on closer look (which your spouse is guaranteed to be doing) The words actually put all of the blame on the spouse (where of course we know it belongs).
Method 2: The Passive Blame Statement
I don't think that I can live with you. My opinion never mattered to you. I cant' live like this. We rarely have fun anymore. I don't want to live this way anymore. (There are many more I'm sure you can think of)
These are passive statements that don't actually assign blame to your spouse, but your spouse will definitely get the idea if you use them. They can't help but see that it MUST be them that makes you feel this way.
Method 3: The Direct Blame Statement
You never listen to me. You never put creases in my pants. You use bagged salad. You never keep the house clean. You are going to do it your way.
All of these are direct statements of blame. You should mix actual faults with things that don't really matter to make it more confusing, and make your spouse feel as bad as possible about themselves.
Your spouse has probably already started doing the hard work to look inside his/herself (Yuck, what an awful thought!) and will take on all of the faults you list to try and correct them. This will keep them occupied for awhile, and you can avoid any serious relationship talks while they apologize for and try to fix all of their own faults. Make sure that you don't actually accept the apology, that way you can continue to bring the fault up which will slow down their self improvement process. Remember, they are working on becoming better human beings, and you wouldn't want that to happen to fast, as that would interfere with your ability to string them along.
Pepper, read the link... very good. How should I get her to read it... e-mail it to her. She surely isn't lurking around here. I'm not sure I understand the blame game though. Could you clarify, please. Thanks.
You won't get any traction by sending her this link at this time. Don't do it.
I just wanted you to realize she is following THE WAYWARD SCRIPT. Sooooo .... don't beat yourself up by believing her nonsense about the ENQ.
The BLAME GAME is what waywards do. They tell themselves that their spouse NEVER met any of their needs. And furthermore, never will meet any of their needs in the future. The marriage was ALWAYS a mistake ... etc etc etc.
They do this to rationalize the great wrong of adultery. Which they know, deep in their hearts, adultery is just wrong.
WW: Yeah, we're talking. Everybody keeps telling me to take the high road,
How exactly does a wayward take the "high road?" Unbelievable.
Your mutual friend just became an enemy of your marriage. I guess everybody's a marriage counselor now. My stbxww had a whole host of them. And they all sucked.
I would tell your mutual friend to please mind his own business and let you work on your marriage with your own wife, that his input is not needed anymore and that you would appreciate it if he stayed away from her. That is unless he either is willing to convince her to stop her affair with another man or he lives close to a hospital.
I know you are in the watching stage whats your plan for exposing the A? I know you have the OM friends list from FB so you can email them when you are ready but what about your inlaws? can they be of any help to wake WW up from this behaviour?? Why is OM talking to a mutual friend?? is that friend enabiling the A? if so whats your plan, is there any way you can confront and deal with that person by shaming them and their behaviour ie talking to their spouse about the way they are enabling your spouses A? Right now i get the impression that your WW has a few enables around and no one to give her a reality and moral check a part from you (and your opinion wont count in her eyes as your bias). She has been disrispecting your marriage and putting her warped point of view accross to her friends/enablers isnt it time to tell them your side and recruit a few to aid you?
I remember when WH during one FR said he was just doing what everyone told him to do when he left me because everyone said it was wrong to stay married just for the kids. I am thinking really? how many of those loons had experience to say that?
Anyway I am in FL too and I wanted to mention, in order to get divorced in FL parents must take a Parents,Children and Divorce class. Its 3 hours. You can take it anytime but you have to take it for the divorce. The class is pretty good, mainly about parent sharing since even though FL is no fault, they consider parents equal. However my favorite part of the class was when the instructor said so how many of you have already started a relationship with someone new and a bunch raised their hand and she said, well you might get more out of this class 4 years from now when you are taking it again.
However my favorite part of the class was when the instructor said so how many of you have already started a relationship with someone new and a bunch raised their hand and she said, well you might get more out of this class 4 years from now when you are taking it again.
Now that's enlightening. Yes, I was aware of the course requirement. My problem though is that I am in the military and will transfer next summer, most likely far out of state. My WW plans to stay in FL, so that makes shared parenting extremely difficult even though I will be on shore duty and not going out to sea or deploying for the next 5-6 years. At that point I only have 3-4 years until retirement.
I know you are in the watching stage whats your plan for exposing the A? I know you have the OM friends list from FB so you can email them when you are ready but what about your inlaws? can they be of any help to wake WW up from this behaviour??
In laws already know and they are supporting her, and not me.
Why is OM talking to a mutual friend?? is that friend enabiling the A?
WW is talking to mutual friend, not OM. Mutual friend is just trying to be supportive, and has been talking to both of us. She clearly states she is not an expert in marriage, but only wants to see both of us happy. She is not aware of MB concepts.
if so whats your plan, is there any way you can confront and deal with that person by shaming them and their behaviour ie talking to their spouse about the way they are enabling your spouses A?
Haven't been able to prove OM is married yet, but I'm working on it.
Right now i get the impression that your WW has a few enables around and no one to give her a reality and moral check a part from you (and your opinion wont count in her eyes as your bias). She has been disrispecting your marriage and putting her warped point of view accross to her friends/enablers isnt it time to tell them your side and recruit a few to aid you?
I will recruit any one I can, but thusfar, everyone is interested in being a watcher and sympathizer rather than waking her up and bringing her out of the fog.
You won't get any traction by sending her this link at this time. Don't do it.
I just wanted you to realize she is following THE WAYWARD SCRIPT. Sooooo .... don't beat yourself up by believing her nonsense about the ENQ.
The BLAME GAME is what waywards do. They tell themselves that their spouse NEVER met any of their needs. And furthermore, never will meet any of their needs in the future. The marriage was ALWAYS a mistake ... etc etc etc.
They do this to rationalize the great wrong of adultery. Which they know, deep in their hearts, adultery is just wrong.
This morning, same mutual friend calls me and says "don't take my advice, keep her in your home and fight for your marriage"
She also reminded me about an event with another friend of hers a couple of years ago. WW has a close friend, who a couple of years ago, had an affair with church preacher's son. My WW talked to her often and told her to think about her family and the possible future for their marriage if they work it out.
I remember my WW telling me this story a couple of years ago. Today our mutual friend remembers my WW telling her this story and the fact that her WS friend is now telling her to take her own advice.
I am telling everyone that will listen and some that won't. I know it should all be done in one swoop, but I just got of the phone with mutual friend's mother, who called to say a package was coming, and asked her if she knew, and she didn't, so I unloaded the story, and she was devastated. WW has always been like a DD to her. She is going to call her this weekend, after her daughter leaves.
Have not exposed to OM side yet, but I am still trying to nail down if he has a W? Almost sounds like he does considering he has to plan his next move. Based on my research, my thought is that he is married, but separated, not divorced, and he is planning to decide whether or not he wants to go through with the divorce.
WW just got back from her counseling session and had this to say to OM:
"So bearing my soul to a stranger wasn't as bad as I thought. I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm a big fan of therapy. :)"
Obviously she is hearing what she wants to hear!!!
I am going to get in contact with her friends I spoke of earlier, who went through an A a few years ago, to get their take on the situation and draw their support to help bust the affair.
Mel, I know you warned me... what about the prospect of talking to her female friend that went through similar situation a couple of years ago? They are still very close... any chance there.
"So bearing my soul to a stranger wasn't as bad as I thought. I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm a big fan of therapy. :)"
Obviously she is hearing what she wants to hear!!!
I told you that IC or MC can't HELP A WAYWARD spouse! Want to know why? Because they manipulate, and lie to the counselor to hear what they want to hear! That's why it didn't work for us! Because every time I was there, I ALWAYS LIED!!
Sapphire, please as a FWW, what did wheels do to pull you back in other than exposing the affair. Sure, exposing the affair is the big one, but at some point he had to be making deposits in your LB. How did he do that while you were in the fog, and not accepting his deposits?
Sapphire, please as a FWW, what did wheels do to pull you back in other than exposing the affair. Sure, exposing the affair is the big one, but at some point he had to be making deposits in your LB. How did he do that while you were in the fog, and not accepting his deposits?
He used a great big ole stick!!
Steve, I am hoping you get the goods on this affair soon so we move to phase 11, NUCLEAR EXPOSURE! Waiting with baited breath.....
Sapphire, please as a FWW, what did wheels do to pull you back in other than exposing the affair. Sure, exposing the affair is the big one, but at some point he had to be making deposits in your LB. How did he do that while you were in the fog, and not accepting his deposits?
Are you kidding?? I wasn't letting him NEAR ME! Let alone deposit anything in my LB, trust me, waywards only think of themselves!
"He used a great big ole stick!!"
Ya and on that stick was called "EXPOSURE!!"
Every time I hear a story that the BS is afraid to expose I always ALWAYS tell wheels that I am sooo glad that he had the balls to expose my affair!
I did exactly that. I followed Mels advice a lot. I gave no excuse because I did not know the first thing about saving a marriage from an affair. I knew my first attempt with OM1 was a failure. I had nothing to lose because Sapph was one credit card swipe from a one way ticket to Aussie. Its amazing what you are willing to do when there is nothing left to lose.
I did a stellar plan A. I learned what my LB are and stopped them all, I still need work, but I did really good. I would often invite her to do things with me, and let her know that I love her. I would sneak into the computer room late at night while she was on the computer, I would watch her type some things that may be questionable then say "What you are doing will destroy our family."
I put road blocks in her way to keep her away from OM. Some things were hard to do like getting rid of a computer, and blocking facebook. I knew it would make sapph mad. I really should have just turned the internet off, but I wanted it for this site and netflix.
I would like to go play World of War"crack" again, or hang out with some good friends we made on the internet. But I know that that will not be good for me or sapph. We could run into OM1, OM2, or heaven forbid make a new OM3. Even I could go off talking to someone and create an OW. Its just not worth it to either of us to back and do the things we used to do. It required a lifestyle change, and we are still changing and making adjustments.
Wheels, I have gotten througha few pages of your thread, but not deep enough yet, so I'll keep reading. But I started wondering how you turned off the internet and wondered if if that would be a good thing to do while I am at work? With the keylogger though, it gives me good intel in the conversations she is having, and if I pull the internet away from her she will resort to something else I can't track... no cell phone tracker for her phone. I don't want them communicating, but I want the intel too. Should I take the router to work with me tomorrow?
All, BTW I think my WW is really getting run down by all of this. Over the last week I often find her dosing off on the couch or recliner in the middle of the day and even right now as I type this. She never used to do this before.
She knows I am talking to someone, just not who. Is that going to make the situation better or worse. I have access to this site a work... should I keep everything there, or at home only when she is not around or paying attention?
All, last night out of sheer disgust I suppose with all the e-mails between WW and OM, I took of my wedding band and placed in on the bathroom sink.
She just asked me why I wasn't wearing it, and I replied "I can't wear something that was given to me in a lie"
She replied, "Can you clarify that for me?"
I replied, "I remember the words from the pastor, Do you, XXXXX take XXXXXX to be your lawfully wedded husband, to have and to hold, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer, forsaking all others, till death do you part."
She was speechless, and I went back to reading wheels thread.
All, last night out of sheer disgust I suppose with all the e-mails between WW and OM, I took of my wedding band and placed in on the bathroom sink.
She just asked me why I wasn't wearing it, and I replied "I can't wear something that was given to me in a lie"
She replied, "Can you clarify that for me?"
I replied, "I remember the words from the pastor, Do you, XXXXX take XXXXXX to be your lawfully wedded husband, to have and to hold, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer, forsaking all others, till death do you part."
She was speechless, and I went back to reading wheels thread.
That was perfect!!
Ya I remember wheels taking off his wedding band, that was another eye opener.
All, BTW I think my WW is really getting run down by all of this. Over the last week I often find her dosing off on the couch or recliner in the middle of the day and even right now as I type this. She never used to do this before.
She knows I am talking to someone, just not who. Is that going to make the situation better or worse. I have access to this site a work... should I keep everything there, or at home only when she is not around or paying attention?
It's a combination of guilt and the shear concentration it takes to do something secret right under your nose. [I had a full on affair for a couple of weeks and it was exhausting.] There's plenty of documented evidence that adulterers suffer depression.
You can tell her you're talking to folks who are trying to help you save your marriage. In fact, if she asks you what you're doing, the basic response is "I'm fighting for our marriage." Keep copies of anything important off site. She'll tear the house apart looking to destroy evidence once you go nuclear.
Wheels, I have gotten througha few pages of your thread, but not deep enough yet, so I'll keep reading. But I started wondering how you turned off the internet and wondered if if that would be a good thing to do while I am at work? With the keylogger though, it gives me good intel in the conversations she is having, and if I pull the internet away from her she will resort to something else I can't track... no cell phone tracker for her phone. I don't want them communicating, but I want the intel too. Should I take the router to work with me tomorrow?
noooooooooooo, don't turn off the internet. Steve, we need some solid evidence of this affair and then I will help you do a very strategic nuclear exposure that will hopefully annhilate the affair in one day. No guarantees, of course, but that is my hope.
And we cant do that if you have no evidence because your wife will be able to dismiss your claims.
She knows I am talking to someone, just not who. Is that going to make the situation better or worse. I have access to this site a work... should I keep everything there, or at home only when she is not around or paying attention?
When she comes out of her addiction, you can tell her about us. But it is ok to post from home as long as you be sure and sign out when you leave.
noooooooooooo, don't turn off the internet. Steve, we need some solid evidence of this affair and then I will help you do a very strategic nuclear exposure that will hopefully annhilate the affair in one day. No guarantees, of course, but that is my hope.
And we cant do that if you have no evidence because your wife will be able to dismiss your claims.
[/quote]
Mel, just so I am clear... what solid evidence am I looking for... just the fact that she is talking to him behind my back is enough for me. What exactly are we looking for?
I recorded any dirty text between them, scheduling time together, messages or letters that say I love you, pictures, and phone bills showing rate of texting (almost 250 texts a day). Most of this came from FB Messages, chats, and email. VAR, credit card purcheses for flowers and gifts, and a keylogger are great way to get info. I had days on top of days worth of stuff, mainly because sapph did not even try to hide it. Still I probably only had about 1% of the stuff they said.
Mel, just so I am clear... what solid evidence am I looking for... just the fact that she is talking to him behind my back is enough for me. What exactly are we looking for?
Steve, we need the proof that this is an affair. I strongly believe her desire to divorce is based entirely on an affair. She wants to leave in order to pursue her affair with this guy.
When you have that, it will be much easier to nuke the affair through exposure and remove any deniability.
HOWEVER, if you don't get the goods by this weekend, I think you should expose anyway.
Mel, just so I am clear... what solid evidence am I looking for... just the fact that she is talking to him behind my back is enough for me. What exactly are we looking for?
Steve, we need the proof that this is an affair. I strongly believe her desire to divorce is based entirely on an affair. She wants to leave in order to pursue her affair with this guy.
When you have that, it will be much easier to nuke the affair through exposure and remove any deniability.
HOWEVER, if you don't get the goods by this weekend, I think you should expose anyway.
Mel, the guy lives in Arkansas. She isn't going to leave to go see him anytime soon, let alone by this weekend. They continue to communicate via e-mail, but it's mostly just talking about daily activities... which is what she should be sharing with me and not him!!!
Mel, the guy lives in Arkansas. She isn't going to leave to go see him anytime soon, let alone by this weekend. They continue to communicate via e-mail, but it's mostly just talking about daily activities... which is what she should be sharing with me and not him!!!
I am hoping they say something about their intentions or what they have done. Something that difinitively shows they are having an affair.
See, I think something happened when they met and some plans were laid. She is telling this guy she is getting divorced and she needs him to believe that to keep him on the line. I want to know what they did and what they have planned.
OM: XXXX brought up some things the other day that I thought were pretty funny.
WW: yeah, like what?
OM: That he'd never call me uncle. That any conversations we had about sex from now on would be onesided and if I was prepared to go a year without it lol
WW: lol I have to agree with him there. so are you prepared?
OM: Lol sadly I've done it before. And that time it wasn't by choice. I'll be fine
WW: good to know.
That's as close as I've seen to intentions thusfar... but they are talking about waiting for a year to have sex.
Odds are high that something happened at this wedding between her and this guy. Their connection is stronger than one based on just flirting. It may have been a kiss, or maybe more, but something happened to where these two have crossed the line to flirt with each other the way they are doing. I�d be surprised if that wasn�t the case. People don�t take steps to destroy their marriages for someone they just find cute and flirt with. This is deeper and likely more happened.
I exposed to her family the fact that she was talking to and is interested in another man via Facebook. I let them know what she was doing, and how she was destroying our family and our marriage. I asked them for their advice and assistance to get her focused on saving our marriage and away from the OM.
Her family contacted her and said they were sorry that I was putting her through this, and that stuff like that was best kept between the two of us. All of her brothers and sisters have been previously divorced and remarried, and happy in their follow on marriage. Only person in her family that hasn't been divorced yet is her mother. I have not exposed to her yet though.
Still trying to find if OM is married, sounds like he is and is separated but not divorced. Would not surprise me if he is still married and separated that his wife doesn't care. I need to spend some time looking for a PI. Any suggestions?
Someone mentioned Spokeo.com in a previous post. They got more info from that locator site than any other. Don't recall if it was on this thread or not. You might want to check it out?
I am holding up ok, but my mind is seriously distracted from anything other than this. I want so much just to fix it right now and make it better. With all the info I have been learning in the last couple of weeks through MB and HNHN, I just want to start putting everything into action now now now. But this didn't happen overnight and it won't be fixed overnight.
I am doing my best to keep my head together, but continuing to read e-mail conversations back and forth between them via keylogger is depressing, as well as the fact I know I can't react to those e-mails.
We have some friends coming in town tomorrow that are on my side of this, and they are going to talk to her. Another friend of hers is going to call her on Saturday to talk to her. All of these folks are on my side and they told me they are going to tell her that she needs to wake up and realize what she is doing to her family and that she is making the biggest mistake of her life. I am hoping that will help. And I will continue to recruit anyone and everyone that will support me and have them convince her that she just needs to stop this.
Once I can get her out of the fog, I can get her into MB and we can begin to restore our marriage.
I just feel helpless in this situation right now. Things are moving way too slow, and I am a fast paced guy. I am keeping it under control though, as I do not want to rush anything that I know will take time.
So hopefully her friends will help make her see and pull her towards the light.
I know I need to let her mother know, but with the way she reacted to the exposure to the rest of her family, she told me that I did nothing but make myself look like and [censored], and that it was conducive to trying to work things out. I know that these are words of anger from her and her fogginess, but man do they hurt. I don't know if she has said anything to her mother, or if any of her family has yet either. I'll see how this weekend goes with her friends.
We have some friends coming in town tomorrow that are on my side of this, and they are going to talk to her. Another friend of hers is going to call her on Saturday to talk to her. A
Having mini confrontations with her like this will, I think, numb her to the coming nuclear exposure (which is the most effective way to do it). I would hold off on all these folks "talking" to her until you've got all your ducks in a row. All she will do is gaslight everyone...
I don�t know if it will help you, but try to find a way to detach yourself emotionally from your WW in the sense that she�s not the woman you married or know but is an alien you have to deal with in an unemotional, logical way that is free of emotions.
I use to not understand what it meant when a soldier said he coped with the stress of combat and the fear of death by accepting that he was dead already. That didn�t make sense to me until I went through this ordeal with my ex and had a custody fight that followed.
If you accept that you�re already dead, then you can respond without fear. If you accept that your wife is already lost then you can deal with her in a more unfeeling and logical manner that detaches your love for her from the actions you must perform to either save your marriage or eventually divorce.
It�s all easier said than done, but it�s a philosophy and coping mechanism worth chewing on. It�s easy to look back in hindsight and say, �I should have done x, y, or z with my ex when I dealt with the infidelity.�
The fact is we act with what we know at the time and make decisions based on that. The difference with you is that you have a group of folks willing to do the thinking for you.
The actions we recommend are with the intent of ending the affair (all of us have that goal), saving your marriage (if you chose to do so), or protect yourself legally for your children (my own personal crusade and a sentiment others here share).
The woman you knew is dead. Whatever emerges from this ordeal will be a new thing. It will either be a life without her or a totally new marriage based on principles you didn�t have before infidelity reared its ugly head. Either way, recapturing the past is a non player, which is something I never understood or accepted when I went through my own situation.
We�re all rooting for you, regardless what happens. I�m surprised you have yet to hear an anger filled rant from her for exposing.
Yes, right now all I want to do is save our marriage! For us and for our family. I have taken steps to protect financial interests and limit her access to funds to only support the children (groceries, gasoline, etc.) I pay all of the bills, which are now debited from my own separate checking account.
She will not have access to funds to pay for anything to support her affair, or to retain a lawyer, or anything else for that matter.
I suggest you call her mother, she is the only person in her family that value marriage, the rest of her family DON'T hence why they have divorced remarried and divorce again and remarried once more.
We have some friends coming in town tomorrow that are on my side of this, and they are going to talk to her. Another friend of hers is going to call her on Saturday to talk to her. All of these folks are on my side and they told me they are going to tell her that she needs to wake up and realize what she is doing to her family and that she is making the biggest mistake of her life. I am hoping that will help. And I will continue to recruit anyone and everyone that will support me and have them convince her that she just needs to stop this.
Steve, in view of all that you said in this post, I would call her mother NOW and get the rest of your exposures done. [the OM's family, facebook friends] I don't care that your wife sniffed her nose at you about the previous exposures, that is to be expected. But you need to get to her mother NOW and ask her mother to use her influence to persuade her DD to end her affair. Tell the mother she is having an affair with Joe XX, who is also married and separated from his wife. Tell her through some intel you have done, there was a plan to move out so she could carry on her affair. ASK FOR HER ADVICE.
It is ok if your wife sniffs at your exposures. They still have an impact on the affair. It will also have an effect on whether or not the OM is ever accepted into that family.
Maybe plan a grand exposure for tomorrow to time with your friends coming to town?
Anyone know of a good PI. I want to definitely find out if this guy is married and how to find his wife. My online searches are turning up nothing other than a marriage license to another woman, and it's really frustrating.
BTW... got Survivng an Affair yesterday, so I am reading that this evening. I am on duty at work today so I can't go home until tomorrow afternoon.
I have my own counseling appointment tomorrow evening. I asked the counselor two questions... is she promarriage? Yes. And, is she familiar with Dr. Willard Harley? Somewhat. I told her a lot of my discussions would reach back to what Dr Harley talks about in HNHN. We'll see how that goes.
One other thing. I got this from reading wheels thread.
Mel, I know you say not to unplug the internet because I need that to collect intel, but since OM is 800 miles away or so, it would be extremely difficult for her to see him, so at why not cut off her means of communication with him. She is dependent on e-mail right now to keep the EA going. I can tell her that I want her to focus on us, our family, and our marriage, and I will not allow her to continue her destructive actions by continuing to carry on her EA with the OM. I would cut off her cell phone and the internet (sacrfice I am willing to make for myself as well since I can still talk to you all from work). I would cancel long distance service on our home phone, and that should about cover it, other than snail mailing each other.
Let me know what you think of this, and if this is a plausible plan, when should I enact it?
Anyone know of a good PI. I want to definitely find out if this guy is married and how to find his wife. My online searches are turning up nothing other than a marriage license to another woman, and it's really frustrating.
Call the police station and ask them for a referral. They often know of good PI's.
Mel, I know you say not to unplug the internet because I need that to collect intel, but since OM is 800 miles away or so, it would be extremely difficult for her to see him, so at why not cut off her means of communication with him. She is dependent on e-mail right now to keep the EA going.
Can you wait one more day to see if you can get more evidence?
Also, did you read what I said about exposing to her mother? That will be a key exposure. Even if the mother is a dud it will create pressure on your wife.
One other thing. I got this from reading wheels thread.
Mel, I know you say not to unplug the internet because I need that to collect intel, but since OM is 800 miles away or so, it would be extremely difficult for her to see him, so at why not cut off her means of communication with him. She is dependent on e-mail right now to keep the EA going. I can tell her that I want her to focus on us, our family, and our marriage, and I will not allow her to continue her destructive actions by continuing to carry on her EA with the OM. I would cut off her cell phone and the internet (sacrfice I am willing to make for myself as well since I can still talk to you all from work). I would cancel long distance service on our home phone, and that should about cover it, other than snail mailing each other.
Let me know what you think of this, and if this is a plausible plan, when should I enact it?
This is a tough one. Does she have internet access at work? If so, she will just contact him there.
Cut off her cell phone? She will just get an affair phone (prepay cell) that you can't track. I should know, my WW got three of them.
You don't want to lose your sources of intelliegence, but you also don't want to allow this to go on under your roof. Let's see what the others think.
The way I want this to play out is for you to get some real evidence of the affair and then expose the hell out of it to everyone, including the OM's side of the family. Once that happens, the affair is usually dead in the water.
At that point, you ask her to send the OM a no contact letter and stop all contact.
It would be AFTER that point that you shut down the internet if she STILL contacts the OM.
Shutting down the internet is a LAST resort not a first resort.
Ok, I'll keep trying to collect the intel. Keylogger has been relatively quiet today.
Mel, yes I will contact her mom, but would like to contact her at the same time I am exposing OM's side as well. I don't want to keep having numerous exposures. I want the next one to be the end all be all one if you know what I mean.
Schtoop, she does not work, her only internet access is from home, or else go to library or internet cafe, but at least it's not under my roof. Completely understand about the prepay phones.
So I suppose no one knows of a PI they can recommend?
One other thing. I got this from reading wheels thread.
Mel, I know you say not to unplug the internet because I need that to collect intel, but since OM is 800 miles away or so, it would be extremely difficult for her to see him, so at why not cut off her means of communication with him. She is dependent on e-mail right now to keep the EA going. I can tell her that I want her to focus on us, our family, and our marriage, and I will not allow her to continue her destructive actions by continuing to carry on her EA with the OM. I would cut off her cell phone and the internet (sacrfice I am willing to make for myself as well since I can still talk to you all from work). I would cancel long distance service on our home phone, and that should about cover it, other than snail mailing each other.
Let me know what you think of this, and if this is a plausible plan, when should I enact it?
She will just get another means if you cut off the internet. She'll get a cell phone with internet, or use computers at the library, etc.
So if she wants to contact him, she will. As long as you have your intel source, you might as well capitalize on it.
Your cutting off those things will only be a temporary impediment. Waywards who want to make contact would quickly get around the internet and cell phone not working. Then your intel source goes away.
This will be a tough case. My XW's affair was with a man old enough to be her father, two states away.
Eventually she moved out to carry on her affair as it was too tough to keep it going while at home.
This is one of the hardest to kill because it's mostly fantasy, and little chance for either of them to Love Bust one another.
Alright calling around to some PI's in my area right now, any specific questions I need to ask these guys. I have the OM's e-mail address, cell phone number for sure... they should be able to track him down and find out whether he is married and the contact info for his wife, right? I hope so... I really want to catch him and expose him. It's been eating at me for days.
Alright calling around to some PI's in my area right now, any specific questions I need to ask these guys. I have the OM's e-mail address, cell phone number for sure... they should be able to track him down and find out whether he is married and the contact info for his wife, right? I hope so... I really want to catch him and expose him. It's been eating at me for days.
Can you also find out where he works and the # to his work? There might be some opportunities there.
Hey, I just ran across this piece of information. Am I setting myself up for some trouble here....
Beverly Ann O'Brien v. James Kevin O'Brien Case No. 5D03-3484, 899 s.2d 1133 (Dist. Crt. App., Fla., February 11, 2005) Court holds that the unauthorized use of a spyware program to capture screen shots of a husband's online communications violates Florida's Security of Communications Act, modeled after the Federal Wiretap Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2501, et seq. An intermediate Florida appellate court accordingly affirms the trial court decision to bar the wife from introducing these screen shots into evidence in her divorce proceeding with her husband.
Without authorization of her husband, a wife installed a spyware program known as Spector on a computer he used. The program took frequent screen shots of his computer activity, and thereby captured online chat conversations, instant messages and emails sent and received by the husband, including, apparently, his private online chats with another woman. These screen shots were copied and stored in a file on the husband's computer. The trial court found the communications had been illegally intercepted in violation of the Act, and refused to admit them into evidence in the parties' divorce. The intermediate appellate court affirmed.
Florida's Security of Communications Act, Section 934.03(1)(a), makes it a crime to "intentionally intercepts � any wire, oral or electronic communication �". The statute defines "electronic communications" as "any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, electromagnetic, photo electronic or photo optical system that affects intrastate, interstate or foreign commerce �" Section 934.02(12). The statute defines "intercept" as "the aural or other acquisition of the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication through use of any electronic, mechanical or other device."
The Court held that the Spector spyware program "intercepted and copied the electronic communications [at issue] as they were transmitted" and thus intercepted them in violation of the Act. In reaching this result, the Court rejected the wife's argument that no interception occurred, because the communications were necessarily stored on the husband's computer before being displayed on his computer screen. Said the Court:
The Wife argues that the communications were in fact stored before acquisition because once the text image became visible on the screen, the communication was no longer in transit and, therefore, not subject to intercept. We disagree. We do not believe that this evanescent time period is sufficient to transform acquisition of the communications from a contemporaneous interception to retrieval from electronic storage.
The Court went on to uphold the trial court's refusal to admit this evidence. Said the Court:
Because the evidence was illegally obtained, we conclude the trial court did not abuse its discretion in refusing to admit it.
p.s. if you are that worried, I would consult an attorney. I have never known of anyone here in 9 years, and hundreds of cases, who ever had a problem with this. Personally, I think the greater risk is not doing it so I wouldn't care if it is illegal. But that is a choice you have to make yourself.
I have no idea. I know it is not illegal to put spyware on your own computer, [parents do it all the time with the computers of their children] but if you are worried, I would contact an attorney. It looks like in the case you cite above the issue was over whether or not the spouse could introduce the data into court. It doesnt say she was prosecuted.
Yes, and that is a good piece of info to have. Won't help much for a child custody case though. I would have to find other hard evidence of the affair to present in court.
If you are happy to invest in a PI can you not invest in the phone tracker where you can record conversations with OM. I know when you first looked at this option it was expensive but as you are looking into ways to document the A and gather evidence the phone thing might be a worthy investment.
You don't know the full circumstances of that case. If she installed it on a computer he bought after they separated, then the court may see it as a violation. But you own your own computer and have a right to install whatever software you wish on your own computer.
BUT....
In the end, none of it matters. Really, it doesn't. You need the intel to get what you need to end the affair and you don't have to reveal your sources.
Family court is a tricky thing. Just keep quiet about it. Your computer in your home is joint marital property, so it is legal to intercept this stuff.
What I really want right now is to find a way to start filling her LB to return the balance above the threshold so we can be in love again, but I know as long as OM is making deposits in his account, that it is a very uphill battle.
Road - not really sure I understand what you are asking, but I am using eblaster on our PC that she uses all the time. I have a laptop that I use, and the e-mails and reports are sent to me on that laptop which is password protected so she can't even log onto it now, and they are also sent to my work e-mail as well. I am printing out hard copies at work and placing them in file folder for safe keeping in the event something happens to both my e-mail at work and or my home laptop.
So the keylogger has been quiet between WW and OM for the last 24 hours. Longest time it has been this quiet since I installed in a week ago. Probably only temporary. Only action yesterday was an e-mail to her sister-in-law who is also one of her best friends from growing up. She writes:
I am doing great today. XXXXX is at work and won't be home until tomorrow. Is that horrible?
You know I think I try to read too much into everything, as probably most BS do.
Going to see the doctor here in a couple of hours and then my counseling appointment this evening. Female friends coming into town this evening to see my WW, and my brother is coming to see me... going golfing in the morning. My WW recommended it last weekend when he was here. They will all leave by Sunday morning, so I am planning on spending some quality time with the WW and kids on Sunday. Maybe go to the park to let the kids play, or to the beach. I really want to get some undivided attention in, but she doesn't want to receive it right now, so it's useless in trying to give it to her. Right now, I feel like I can only try to increase the amount of time I am doing things with them and get out of the house more with them. I have been improving on things like telling her how good she looks, how good her cooking is, and thanking her for doing things like washing the laundry, and cooking meals, etc. She tells me her top needs are Open and Honesty, Affection, Admiration, Recreational Companionship, and conversation. Of those 5 her top 3 are affection, open and honest, and recreational companionship. So I need to focus on those. I randomly leave little notes around the house before I leave for work letting her know I love her and hope you have a good day. I give her a kiss and tell her I love her first thing every morning and last thing every night. I need to work on being more open and discussing my feelings with her, but right now she won't listen.
I am 3/4 the way through SAA, and have learned a lot from that book as well. A lot of it I just feel that I can't put into action until the EA with OM is over.
Need to call the PI back again today to get everything set up. Should have some answers soon on the OM's marital status.
So the keylogger has been quiet between WW and OM for the last 24 hours. Longest time it has been this quiet since I installed in a week ago. Probably only temporary. Only action yesterday was an e-mail to her sister-in-law who is also one of her best friends from growing up. She writes:
I am doing great today. XXXXX is at work and won't be home until tomorrow. Is that horrible?
That explains why the keylogger is silent. She is probably talking to him on the phone. Do have access to the cell phone bill?
Or............could the OM be calling in your landline?
If so, check the caller ID history and hit redial to see what #s come up. If you think he might be calling on your landline, I would get a phone tap from Radio Shack and slip it on one of the back bedroom or garage phones.
Or............could the OM be calling in your landline?
If so, check the caller ID history and hit redial to see what #s come up. If you think he might be calling on your landline, I would get a phone tap from Radio Shack and slip it on one of the back bedroom or garage phones.
I have even thought about how someone could attach it to the line that goes out of the box in the basement. That way, it wouldn't be "accidentally" found.
All, goood points. I have checked the cell phone call log today and it showed no inbound or outbound calls. Maybe he did call the house, so I will check the caller id when I get home. Hopefully she didn't think of deleting on all the phones, but if she did, our dish network keeps a log of it too, and I don't think she would have thought of that.
That is good to know. My WH DID know to erase the call logs and even the redial. I only KNOW because I had a VAR and heard him call and then heard him delete the call logs.
Well no evidence on caller id on the dish network receiver... a lot or return calls from some lawyers though. She has an appointment on Thursday for a consultation.
She is now sitting down reading His Needs, Her Needs. I asked her to read it before she rushes into any decision on how to move forward.
Well no evidence on caller id on the dish network receiver... a lot or return calls from some lawyers though. She has an appointment on Thursday for a consultation.
But she may be calling him, right? I am not familiar with the dish network phone, is there a log of outgoing calls?
I would put a VAR somewhere in the house where she typically uses the phone. It is very unlikely that she has stopped contact...
Well she was definitely talking to hi so other way than e-mail. I came home early from work and it suprised her. Guess she was supposed to contact him because she later sent him an e-mail saying she was sorry, but I had come home unexpectedly. He says I figured it was something like that.
I checked the caller id on all the phones and Dish Network, and her cell phone log online and they were all clean. I don't know if the keylogger tracks applications run on the computer, but I will try it out. No microphone on the computer, so not sure how they would communicate that way.
We talked a little when I got home and she had made an appointment with a lawyer next Thursday. I got her to start reading HNHN but she easily gave up on that. Then she told me that she wasn't leaving me for someone else, she wants to be alone... which I totally do not believe. She can't make it on her own... no job, no money. Can't stay in the house because she can't afford the mortgage, and I'm certainly not paying it if I can't stay in my own home, and no I am not considering leaving my own home. I told her that if she left, she would lose another EN, Financial Security. She would have no stablility in her life and that sent her storming off mad.
I drained the joint checking account down even lower to make sure she can't use our money to pay lawyer fees.
I checked the caller id on all the phones and Dish Network, and her cell phone log online and they were all clean. I don't know if the keylogger tracks applications run on the computer, but I will try it out. No microphone on the computer, so not sure how they would communicate that way.
Search for a secret cell phone. They are cheap and easy to get. Can you install a VAR in the room she would most likely call from?
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I told her that if she left, she would lose another EN, Financial Security. She would have no stablility in her life and that sent her storming off mad.
Bravo!! Keep injecting reality into the affair!
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I drained the joint checking account down even lower to make sure she can't use our money to pay lawyer fees.
Well, I haven't posted in several days, so I thought I would get back on here and update you.
First, things are still going down hill. PI found that OM was married and now divorced, so know OM wife to expose to. I exposed the affair to everyone, my friends, her friends, OM friends, and all that did was drive a wedge further between us. Her family wants her to leave, and she still wants to leave.
She has a consultation with an attorney on Thursday, and I have on on Friday. She has no money to file for divorce through an attorney because I have transferred it all out of our joint accounts leaving her enough money to take care of the kids. I told her I would continue to support the kids, and the bills would continue to be paid.
I am run down, sick and tired of trying to save something that she has not interest in saving. She wants to leave and I feel completely helpless to stop her now. She can't just leave because she has no job and no way to take care of herself. She is looking for a job but with her not having any experience in her field and not having worked in the last 6 years, I believe it will be extremely difficult for her to find work. So right now we are stuck. She won't leave the house because she can't afford to, and I won't leave the house for fear of perception of abandonment of the family.
I do not want to pursue a long, drawn out legal battle which will cost us both a fortune and everything I have worked so hard to save for our future. I would rather come to a mutual agreement and make it as painless for all involved as possible.
I feel like a coward for thinking about just letting her end it, but I just don't know what else to do at this point. I don't want to let her go, but I don't want to lose everything I have worked so hard for if and when she does divorce me.
One positive note, I suppose. Yesterday I spoke with a Navy Chaplain about all of this, and he wanted me to get her in to come talk to him. He is extremely promarriage. I talked to my WW last night about seeing him and while she said she already knows what he is going to say, she agreed to meet with him next week. So I am making that appointment today.
I think this is my last last effort to try to save our marriage... I just don't know what else to do.
Steve, it takes much longer than this to save a marriage from an affair. You have just started! The effects of exposure have just begun to take place. Exposure infuriates the WS but it causes the affair to start crumbling. When they get over their fury, which doesn't last long, you make a soft place for her to land while the affair crumbles.
Let her go to an attorney! And let her find out that she will destitute. Let the reality sink in. Steve, it is unlikely you will ever be divorced. Your marriage has a much better chance than the affair. The affair has a 5% chance and your marriage has a 65% chance.
You need to just sit back and wait for her affair to crumble. Don't cooperate, don't let her carry on her affair conversations in the house and be as polite as possible.
Don't give up before you ever get to the battle field!
I apologize, I haven't read the whole thread but I noticed your last post and you sound disheartened. It sounds like things are going as they should.
Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
First, things are still going down hill. PI found that OM was married and now divorced, so know OM wife to expose to. I exposed the affair to everyone, my friends, her friends, OM friends, and all that did was drive a wedge further between us. Her family wants her to leave, and she still wants to leave.
It may feel like exposure has driven a wedge between you, but it hasn't, really. Her anger over this is typical, it is the EXPECTED reaction. Her secret life has been ratted out to people who are important in her life, her disgusting behaviour has been revealed. She's peed off, again this is typical. Ignore her reaction to this. Ignore it, ignore it and ignore it. Behave like the man who did the right thing to save his family, cuz you did do the right thing. I'm sure the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A have been suggested, worth reading again and again ...... it takes practice to get onto.
Not sure why her family wants her to leave???
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She has a consultation with an attorney on Thursday, and I have on on Friday. She has no money to file for divorce through an attorney because I have transferred it all out of our joint accounts leaving her enough money to take care of the kids. I told her I would continue to support the kids, and the bills would continue to be paid.
So she has a consultation, big deal. She has no money, you have seen to that, good job on that one. Hopefully her family will not lend her the cash, since you wrote that they support her leaving. You don't need to participate in convo's about D. You can hold onto the mantra that you believe in M, and you can say this to WW. Stick to your mantra and do not get into a p*ssing match with her irrational words. It's easy to do, it's also a huge LB to her on your part. You will make the OM look like the better choice. Your goal is to make yourself the better choice.
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I am run down, sick and tired of trying to save something that she has not interest in saving. She wants to leave and I feel completely helpless to stop her now.
Of course she has no interest in saving the M, she is HIGH on OM. This is also typical at this stage of the game. To her, it's the easy way out, easier to run to OM and live the fantasy life that she believes exists, rather than face the consequences of this A. While you can't stop her from doing anything, you are not helpless, far from it. You can influence the A and help to end it. You've been doing this so far. You can make yourself to be the better choice, make the M a safe place to come back to. Review Plan A.
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I feel like a coward for thinking about just letting her end it, but I just don't know what else to do at this point. I don't want to let her go, but I don't want to lose everything I have worked so hard for if and when she does divorce me.
You're giving up before the battle is over. Until NC with OM is in place, WW cannot go through withdrawl from her addiction to OM and that fantasy life. Breaking up the A is a key turning point. Have you found that secret phone yet?
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One positive note, I suppose. Yesterday I spoke with a Navy Chaplain about all of this, and he wanted me to get her in to come talk to him. He is extremely promarriage. I talked to my WW last night about seeing him and while she said she already knows what he is going to say, she agreed to meet with him next week. So I am making that appointment today.
This is good. It wouldn't surprise me if she cancelled or couldn't make the appt., at the last minute. Don't argue this if it happens. You can let her know that you are hurt and disappointed, and leave it at that.
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I think this is my last last effort to try to save our marriage... I just don't know what else to do.
You've just begun, it's a hard and painful battle. Stick to the plans laid out. You can do this. We BS's are a strong bunch!
It is possible to get through this and have a stronger M than before.
Still snooping for that affair phone too because she has not e-mailed him in 3 days. I know she is communicating with him via other means.
I remember searching for the A phone too, made me crazy. If only there was a sensor to detect such a thing as you wander around the house, you know like a stud finder!
I apologize, I haven't read the whole thread but I noticed your last post and you sound disheartened. It sounds like things are going as they should.
Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
First, things are still going down hill. PI found that OM was married and now divorced, so know OM wife to expose to. I exposed the affair to everyone, my friends, her friends, OM friends, and all that did was drive a wedge further between us. Her family wants her to leave, and she still wants to leave.
It may feel like exposure has driven a wedge between you, but it hasn't, really. Her anger over this is typical, it is the EXPECTED reaction. Her secret life has been ratted out to people who are important in her life, her disgusting behaviour has been revealed. She's peed off, again this is typical. Ignore her reaction to this. Ignore it, ignore it and ignore it. Behave like the man who did the right thing to save his family, cuz you did do the right thing. I'm sure the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A have been suggested, worth reading again and again ...... it takes practice to get onto.
Not sure why her family wants her to leave???
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She has a consultation with an attorney on Thursday, and I have on on Friday. She has no money to file for divorce through an attorney because I have transferred it all out of our joint accounts leaving her enough money to take care of the kids. I told her I would continue to support the kids, and the bills would continue to be paid.
So she has a consultation, big deal. She has no money, you have seen to that, good job on that one. Hopefully her family will not lend her the cash, since you wrote that they support her leaving. You don't need to participate in convo's about D. You can hold onto the mantra that you believe in M, and you can say this to WW. Stick to your mantra and do not get into a p*ssing match with her irrational words. It's easy to do, it's also a huge LB to her on your part. You will make the OM look like the better choice. Your goal is to make yourself the better choice.
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I am run down, sick and tired of trying to save something that she has not interest in saving. She wants to leave and I feel completely helpless to stop her now.
Of course she has no interest in saving the M, she is HIGH on OM. This is also typical at this stage of the game. To her, it's the easy way out, easier to run to OM and live the fantasy life that she believes exists, rather than face the consequences of this A. While you can't stop her from doing anything, you are not helpless, far from it. You can influence the A and help to end it. You've been doing this so far. You can make yourself to be the better choice, make the M a safe place to come back to. Review Plan A.
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I feel like a coward for thinking about just letting her end it, but I just don't know what else to do at this point. I don't want to let her go, but I don't want to lose everything I have worked so hard for if and when she does divorce me.
You're giving up before the battle is over. Until NC with OM is in place, WW cannot go through withdrawl from her addiction to OM and that fantasy life. Breaking up the A is a key turning point. Have you found that secret phone yet?
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One positive note, I suppose. Yesterday I spoke with a Navy Chaplain about all of this, and he wanted me to get her in to come talk to him. He is extremely promarriage. I talked to my WW last night about seeing him and while she said she already knows what he is going to say, she agreed to meet with him next week. So I am making that appointment today.
This is good. It wouldn't surprise me if she cancelled or couldn't make the appt., at the last minute. Don't argue this if it happens. You can let her know that you are hurt and disappointed, and leave it at that.
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I think this is my last last effort to try to save our marriage... I just don't know what else to do.
You've just begun, it's a hard and painful battle. Stick to the plans laid out. You can do this. We BS's are a strong bunch!
It is possible to get through this and have a stronger M than before.
Vittoria put it in words much better than I could. I just wanted to let you know that this is a very normal thing, and it gives you the upper hand. Do not feel like you lost anything. What you did is gain control of the marriage. You have all the time to decide what to do, you can sit on your hands and let her go bonkers.
I am concerned that her family wants her to leave. I do not see this often, probably because WW has told them how much you emotionally abuse her, and that she is in an unhappy marriage and this exposure is proof of all this. It is a very common script among WS, this is why exposure needs to be done soon with great force so this type of rebuttle doesn't sink in with the WS family and friends. (not pointing fingers at you, just lurkers that may not want to expose in time. You did fine)
What really helps is to Plan A and let the whole world especially your wife and her family see the perfect man. Let her know that you are willing to fight for your marriage, and you have all the time in the world.
Thanks, Wheels. Think I am going to lay back for awhile and see what happens. I am going to focus on finding that affair phone though. That is bugging the crap out of me.
I'm going to disagree with Sapphire here on the destroying it part. I agree that if you can find it she should be confronted with it, but destroying it will not be a Plan A moment.
In fact, angry destruction of the phone will feed the "crazy jealous husband" picture she is painting for people that is the likely cause of her folks supporting her leaving you.
The answer to this dilemma is to SHOW people your true intent by loving actions (Plan A stuff like following POJA on daily stuff, demonstrating that you have a plan and are not just reacting out of spite and anger etc) and by repeating the mantra that you are doing what you believe in by fighting for your family.
Try to ignore your WW's fogbabble and try to avoid relationship talk. That is just going to frustrate you.
Try instead to focus on making yourself the best you can be. Get some new clothes, etc. Make the house a warm place to be. Anything she has been nagging you about forever, helping with laundry? Finishing a project? Now is a great time to do it. Plan outings for you and the kids and invite your W along. If she refuses, go and have a great time without her.
The Plan A and Plan B prep is in order. Plan A by making changes to things you think will make you more attractive to her. Part of this is a little touch of indifference combined with a friendliness you�d display to someone you have just started dating. The indifference (I use the term loosely) is to help the WW not feel smothered and to give you an air of �what�s he up to?�
It�s really tough, in this stage, to control your feelings when you know that contact continues. Have you looked into an AOA lawsuit against OM? Perhaps one you can file in Arkansas?
The odds are high it will go nowhere, but it�s impact is in the shock value. Getting sued is shocking for people and they tend to want the suit to go away no matter what.
I would make sure to clarify to your WW in a calm, very matter of fact manner, that you will not approve of the kids being taken out of state in any way and that you will seek custody of the kids if she tries to leave. You have already said so, but don�t be afraid of reiterating. She has the idea in her head that she will replace you with OM in her new life and that you will all be happy and great and get along splendidly. It�s a na�ve notion common in waywards. Women often think that family law is automatically on their side.
It is and it isn�t. Men are often unprepared and caught off guard by a wayward. Many, like me, let the woman take just about everything in the equally na�ve notion that this is some phase the woman is going through that she�ll eventually snap out of and the family will be restored. Not so.
Understand that if the process of divorce is started, that you will have to legally fight it as a full out war (legally). You will have to take the offensive, ask for the stars and hope to get the moon.
The offensive aspect of this is very shocking to a WW. They often don�t think of the fact that the BS will fire back hard and will come with guns blazing (figuratively speaking from a legal standpoint).
BUT�.
This legal fight can be done in parallel with a Plan A. It seems crazy, but it can. You let your lawyer do the nasty business while you focus on being a perfect husband.
Now, I have to ask this tough question and it is one you really have to think hard about:
Is your WW worth this effort? Is preserving this marriage for your children worth the heartache of recovery? What was your marriage like before your W went wayward? Don�t necessarily base this answer on your perception of things. Look at things from a friend�s perspective. Would they say you have a good marriage? Would they say that you guys are a good couple?
What would your family say?
I�m only asking these things to challenge you to think about them, nothing more.
Just as a curiosity how do you POJA an affair phone??
No you don't POJA the affair phone, you just dont destroy it. Destroying it in anger gives the WW leverage, the ability to point out "My BH is insane and I desrve my affair!!"....blech.
Instead he proposes to use the affair phone to the advantage by recording everything.
I was going to suggest disabling it in a sublte manner so the WW does not notice. Like take it apart, drill a hole in the processor, (touch an arc wlder to the processor), and put it back together again. Something subtle that the phone guys can't see or fix.
Let me add something to what helpthelostdads said.
My ex-wife, when confronted about what her lawyer was doing said she was just doing what her attorney told her to do.
I reminded her that her lawyer works for her, and anything he sends is a reflection of what she wants. So if he sends my attorney a letter saying you want spousal support, then I take it that you approve of your attorney seeking spousal support on your behalf. I was clear that her attorney worked for her, not the other way around, and she's responsible for what comes from his office.
So when I got her proposed settlement, probably against better judgment, I called her and said what is this? If she wants a divorce, don't ask me to pay for your lawyer, ask your affair partner to pick up the tab for the divorce I don't want.
I reminded her of the above, and rejected her continued excuses. I said she hired him, if he's not doing what your will, then why is he still your attorney.
(He eventually fired her since she couldn't pay and he'd run up quite a bill with his stunts that she couldn't pay.)
I really think you need to file first, so she is on the defense. File, seek primary custody, a restraining order keeping the other man away from your children, no having the other man sleep over when the children are with her for her every other weekend, whatever it takes.
If you are the petitioner, you may have more say over how the process goes. You will certainly have her responding instead of dictating the terms of the divorce.
You may also control the timing, so the affair could die during the divorce proceedings.
If at that time, you want to reconcile, you can put the divorce on hold. If not, you are already on your way, and have sent the clear message that you will not be separated from all that you've worked for in your family simply because she no longer wishes to be your wife.
Just as a curiosity how do you POJA an affair phone??
You don't use POJA to allow for an affair phone. But you can still demonstrate how POJA works and with luck your input will matter when it comes time to discuss the affair phone...
Obviously no one in his or her right mind would be in enthusiastic agreement with a spouse having a secret phone with which to carry on an affair but POJA isn't about the affair since it was begun and continues without the requirements of POJA being met.
You also don't POJA regarding NC, you demand it. Yes, I said DEMAND it. That is what Dr H would recommend, I think.
But POJA can and should be practiced for day to day things and not just major conflicts. It isn't typically the major conflicts in a marriage that do the most damage to the relationship and result in an affair. It is the little things done without considering each other's feelings that total up to massive resentment that allows for justification of having an affair.
If I write a check for five dollars every day and do little to put back into that account (and perhaps nothing because I can't seem to get to the bank when it is open for business) at the end of the week my account is 35 bucks lower than when the week started.
ANY confrontation about the affair makes Love Bank withdrawals from both accounts. The more intense and excited the conflict the greater the hit. Part of Plan A is trying to maximize Love Bank deposits whenever possible and avoiding withdrawals, but the affair itself becomes a source of great tension and strife which leads to withdrawals. Even the stress the WS puts on him or herself depletes the Love Bank since being together when experiencing a negative emotional response is enough to cause withdrawals. It doesn't have to be the BS that causes the negative reaction, just being present when it happens kills their balance in the WS's Love Bank.
POJA CAN be applied one sided to any decision that we need to make by refusing to act selfishly without considering what the feelings of the other might be. But the affair cannot be successfully negotiated through any logical process including POJA since the affair is not based on logic. Nothing about it can be truly negotiated fairly. No BS would ever enthusiastically agree to being hurt by an affair so POJA doesn't even enter into that discussion.
But just about everything else, even while an affair is raging, CAN be negotiated to demonstrate the ability and willingness of the BS to protect the feelings of the WS if the affair ends and recovery begins. And THAT is the whole POINT of Plan A.
The purpose of POJA is the elimination of Independent Behavior. Since one of the the Love Busters is IB, beginning to use POJA shows the WS how the process can work and will preserve any balance left in his or her Love Bank as it relates to the BS.
The thing about MB is that it ALL works. Pieces of it might not work to create romantic love if done by themselves, but when the entire process is taken as a whole, the whole of MB DOES lead to romantic love.
Yes, other stuff can get in the way. Yes, the WS can cause so much destruction that only abandoning the relationship can save the BS. Yes, a WS that happens to have a personality disorder, a diagnosable one not related to the typical narcissism demonstrated during an affair, can short circuit the whole process and prevent any progress from being made.
But if MB is going to be followed, there is no time to begin following it like the present. The trick is to figure out the parts that aren't related to the marriage and only the affair and not try to apply MB to the affair but only the marriage.
You don't POJA the affair. You do POJA dinner, what to watch on TV, stopping off for a pint on Friday after work and that golf game on Saturday if you want to really make progress toward filling the empty Love Bank of a spouse in a state of Withdrawal, whether an affair is ongoing or not.
In Plan A, you eliminate IB just like you strive to eliminate DJs, SDs and AOs. You also try to eliminate lies, unless we are talking about things directly related to breaking up the affair and the strategy to accomplish that goal. But even lies of commission are not always what damaged the marriage in most cases but lies of omission. It is failing to be radically honest about stuff that takes a toll on the relationship as it applies to daily activities, that stopping off for a pint after work on Friday, the golf at 8am on Saturday without using POJA to set it up...
You confront the affair every chance you get. You attack the affair with every method you can muster. You make the affair more work and effort than it is worth. You try to do it without attacking the WS and without any Love Busters, including IB.
If you ever get to recovery, the only part that changes is the strategy you kept hidden to fight the affair. Once the affair ends, that ceases to exist and then you have nothing left that is to be kept secret.
Ideally, even the end of the affair will be the result of POJA. With luck the WS will be in enthusiastic agreement as to recovery and rebuilding the marriage and having no contact with the AP for life.
This stuff isn't just theory. It is real life stuff, everyday stuff...
If Wheels had gone around smashing things, yelling constantly and basically just doing whatever the hell he felt like doing, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...
I had to comment!!! Hang in there and PLEASE listen to Melody. I have spent months reading her threads, saving marriage after marriage.
I really am so sorry you are going through this, it is so painful. We are in R. and that is hard as well. I actually hope you some day get there. Saving a marriage is better than splitting up a family.
FYI, not sure this helps, but I found his Affair Phone in his car, back seat in the flap. I read everything, then gave him a choice (we were already in R. he just had not gotten out to destroy it), he take a hammer to it or me. I did it and it felt great, BUT after I wish I hadn't.
As far as POJA goes, as with anything in Plan A, the best you can do is express a willingness to meet needs and engage in the POJA in the FUTURE if she ends her affair.
Using the POJA or Radical honesty with a person who is abusive can be very dangerous. As Mark stated, this does not apply to the affair! For example, the POJA states "never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse." If we used POJA in an affair situation, then exposure would be OUT because no adulterer is going to agree to exposure. If we used Radical Honesty, snooping would be rendered null. The general rule is "don't negotiate with a terrorist!"
So save the POJA for when it is SAFE!
Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely. Your conclusions are correct. "
I went home from work yesterday evening and we had dinner together. Wife's sister-in-law called so she went outside to talk to her. I cleaned up the dishes and the kitchen and played with the kids and helped her get the baths and ready for bed.
I did some snooping for that phone while she was taking a shower, and no joy on that. A question on that... if she has one of these phone's does she have to provide some information like an e-mail address or card number. Seems like there would be some way to trace it?
Anyways, we watched a little tv together, with no discussion, and I told her a loved her when I said good night. She's sleeping on the couch nowadays by her own choice.
This morning when I left for work, she was still asleep on the couch and I gave her a kiss and told her I loved her again. She only said have a good day.
Any words of criticism or advice on how to do things better?
Anyways, we watched a little tv together, with no discussion, and I told her a loved her when I said good night. She's sleeping on the couch nowadays by her own choice.
Had a quick thought, dunno if it is worth anything. You are Plan Aing right? Schoolbus' thread on body language got me thinking. Does your wife let you touch her at all? Perhaps before bed you could sit with her on the couch and gently touch her face, or stroke her hair. Just for a little while before bed time - then get up and go to bed. As you leave let her know that you would like for her to join you. When she rejects your offer say 'ok' then go to bed.
My FWW had a tough time touching me and letting me touch her, it was just one of those things that I had to work around. I severly missed it, and I know for certain that she needs someone there just to touch her. It drove me crazy knowing that she did not like ME touching her.
My mistake is that I started thinking poisonous thoughts, like my FWW did not want to touch me because it would make her feel like she would be cheating on the OM, with me. I started to think I was the OM in her affair, I was no longer the BS.
These are tough times, with tough decisions, and you have to do what you can to avoid falling from Plan A into Plan C or D. If you try to touch her and she shrugs it off, don't think too much about it. Try something else, but don't get discouraged when everything you try is dismissed and unacknowledged.
Thanks, Wheels. It is very frustrating to me that the very things I used to do like touching her are now unwelcomed. I don't let it show that it bothers me, honestly I have been refraining from doing these things other than the kisses on her cheek or forehead at night and in the morning.
I try to think positive thoughts, and one day this will be behind us, but I know it's a long road to recovery if we can get there before Plan D.
Fill her car with gas. Buy her favorite beverage. Play music and dance around the house. Sing off key, joyously. Play board games with the 5 year old. Take the 5 year old out on a "Date with Daddy". (text WW photos of your date) Take a shower with the 1 year old. Clean the bathroom. Put a flower in a vase. (just one) Call her parents and tell them how beautiful their daughter is. Put her favorite DVD in and start the movie and pop popcorn.
] It'll break her train of thought (and that's a generous use of the word "thought").
And the funny thing is that your wife cant say anything to you without admitting she has been in contact. 
As if divorce is good for your kids! 
Surely you can see how insane her narrative is? 
