Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 13 of 13 1 2 11 12 13
Mark1952 #2420178 08/24/10 09:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,862
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,862
Get some VAR and hide them around the house.




Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
Try to ignore your WW's fogbabble and try to avoid relationship talk. That is just going to frustrate you.

Try instead to focus on making yourself the best you can be. Get some new clothes, etc. Make the house a warm place to be. Anything she has been nagging you about forever, helping with laundry? Finishing a project? Now is a great time to do it. Plan outings for you and the kids and invite your W along. If she refuses, go and have a great time without her.

Hang in there. Plan A is tough but you can do it!


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
SusieQ #2420201 08/24/10 10:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
PS, VAR, in this context, is Voice Activated Recorder if you are not familiar with that acronym.

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,921
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,921
Your situation isn�t as hopeless as it seems.

The Plan A and Plan B prep is in order. Plan A by making changes to things you think will make you more attractive to her. Part of this is a little touch of indifference combined with a friendliness you�d display to someone you have just started dating. The indifference (I use the term loosely) is to help the WW not feel smothered and to give you an air of �what�s he up to?�

It�s really tough, in this stage, to control your feelings when you know that contact continues. Have you looked into an AOA lawsuit against OM? Perhaps one you can file in Arkansas?

The odds are high it will go nowhere, but it�s impact is in the shock value. Getting sued is shocking for people and they tend to want the suit to go away no matter what.

I would make sure to clarify to your WW in a calm, very matter of fact manner, that you will not approve of the kids being taken out of state in any way and that you will seek custody of the kids if she tries to leave. You have already said so, but don�t be afraid of reiterating. She has the idea in her head that she will replace you with OM in her new life and that you will all be happy and great and get along splendidly. It�s a na�ve notion common in waywards. Women often think that family law is automatically on their side.

It is and it isn�t. Men are often unprepared and caught off guard by a wayward. Many, like me, let the woman take just about everything in the equally na�ve notion that this is some phase the woman is going through that she�ll eventually snap out of and the family will be restored. Not so.

Understand that if the process of divorce is started, that you will have to legally fight it as a full out war (legally). You will have to take the offensive, ask for the stars and hope to get the moon.

The offensive aspect of this is very shocking to a WW. They often don�t think of the fact that the BS will fire back hard and will come with guns blazing (figuratively speaking from a legal standpoint).

BUT�.

This legal fight can be done in parallel with a Plan A. It seems crazy, but it can. You let your lawyer do the nasty business while you focus on being a perfect husband.

Now, I have to ask this tough question and it is one you really have to think hard about:

Is your WW worth this effort? Is preserving this marriage for your children worth the heartache of recovery?
What was your marriage like before your W went wayward? Don�t necessarily base this answer on your perception of things. Look at things from a friend�s perspective. Would they say you have a good marriage? Would they say that you guys are a good couple?

What would your family say?

I�m only asking these things to challenge you to think about them, nothing more.

Mark1952 #2420274 08/24/10 12:34 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
Originally Posted by Mark1952
(Plan A stuff like following POJA on daily stuff,


Just as a curiosity how do you POJA an affair phone??

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 533
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
Originally Posted by Mark1952
(Plan A stuff like following POJA on daily stuff,


Just as a curiosity how do you POJA an affair phone??

No you don't POJA the affair phone, you just dont destroy it. Destroying it in anger gives the WW leverage, the ability to point out "My BH is insane and I desrve my affair!!"....blech.

Instead he proposes to use the affair phone to the advantage by recording everything.

I was going to suggest disabling it in a sublte manner so the WW does not notice. Like take it apart, drill a hole in the processor, (touch an arc wlder to the processor), and put it back together again. Something subtle that the phone guys can't see or fix.

Last edited by Wheels_spinning; 08/24/10 12:48 PM.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Let me add something to what helpthelostdads said.

My ex-wife, when confronted about what her lawyer was doing said she was just doing what her attorney told her to do.

I reminded her that her lawyer works for her, and anything he sends is a reflection of what she wants. So if he sends my attorney a letter saying you want spousal support, then I take it that you approve of your attorney seeking spousal support on your behalf. I was clear that her attorney worked for her, not the other way around, and she's responsible for what comes from his office.

So when I got her proposed settlement, probably against better judgment, I called her and said what is this? If she wants a divorce, don't ask me to pay for your lawyer, ask your affair partner to pick up the tab for the divorce I don't want.

I reminded her of the above, and rejected her continued excuses. I said she hired him, if he's not doing what your will, then why is he still your attorney.

(He eventually fired her since she couldn't pay and he'd run up quite a bill with his stunts that she couldn't pay.)

I really think you need to file first, so she is on the defense. File, seek primary custody, a restraining order keeping the other man away from your children, no having the other man sleep over when the children are with her for her every other weekend, whatever it takes.

If you are the petitioner, you may have more say over how the process goes. You will certainly have her responding instead of dictating the terms of the divorce.

You may also control the timing, so the affair could die during the divorce proceedings.

If at that time, you want to reconcile, you can put the divorce on hold. If not, you are already on your way, and have sent the clear message that you will not be separated from all that you've worked for in your family simply because she no longer wishes to be your wife.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
Originally Posted by Mark1952
(Plan A stuff like following POJA on daily stuff,


Just as a curiosity how do you POJA an affair phone??

You don't use POJA to allow for an affair phone. But you can still demonstrate how POJA works and with luck your input will matter when it comes time to discuss the affair phone...

Obviously no one in his or her right mind would be in enthusiastic agreement with a spouse having a secret phone with which to carry on an affair but POJA isn't about the affair since it was begun and continues without the requirements of POJA being met.

You also don't POJA regarding NC, you demand it. Yes, I said DEMAND it. That is what Dr H would recommend, I think.

But POJA can and should be practiced for day to day things and not just major conflicts. It isn't typically the major conflicts in a marriage that do the most damage to the relationship and result in an affair. It is the little things done without considering each other's feelings that total up to massive resentment that allows for justification of having an affair.

If I write a check for five dollars every day and do little to put back into that account (and perhaps nothing because I can't seem to get to the bank when it is open for business) at the end of the week my account is 35 bucks lower than when the week started.

ANY confrontation about the affair makes Love Bank withdrawals from both accounts. The more intense and excited the conflict the greater the hit. Part of Plan A is trying to maximize Love Bank deposits whenever possible and avoiding withdrawals, but the affair itself becomes a source of great tension and strife which leads to withdrawals. Even the stress the WS puts on him or herself depletes the Love Bank since being together when experiencing a negative emotional response is enough to cause withdrawals. It doesn't have to be the BS that causes the negative reaction, just being present when it happens kills their balance in the WS's Love Bank.

POJA CAN be applied one sided to any decision that we need to make by refusing to act selfishly without considering what the feelings of the other might be. But the affair cannot be successfully negotiated through any logical process including POJA since the affair is not based on logic. Nothing about it can be truly negotiated fairly. No BS would ever enthusiastically agree to being hurt by an affair so POJA doesn't even enter into that discussion.

But just about everything else, even while an affair is raging, CAN be negotiated to demonstrate the ability and willingness of the BS to protect the feelings of the WS if the affair ends and recovery begins. And THAT is the whole POINT of Plan A.

The purpose of POJA is the elimination of Independent Behavior. Since one of the the Love Busters is IB, beginning to use POJA shows the WS how the process can work and will preserve any balance left in his or her Love Bank as it relates to the BS.

The thing about MB is that it ALL works. Pieces of it might not work to create romantic love if done by themselves, but when the entire process is taken as a whole, the whole of MB DOES lead to romantic love.

Yes, other stuff can get in the way. Yes, the WS can cause so much destruction that only abandoning the relationship can save the BS. Yes, a WS that happens to have a personality disorder, a diagnosable one not related to the typical narcissism demonstrated during an affair, can short circuit the whole process and prevent any progress from being made.

But if MB is going to be followed, there is no time to begin following it like the present. The trick is to figure out the parts that aren't related to the marriage and only the affair and not try to apply MB to the affair but only the marriage.

You don't POJA the affair. You do POJA dinner, what to watch on TV, stopping off for a pint on Friday after work and that golf game on Saturday if you want to really make progress toward filling the empty Love Bank of a spouse in a state of Withdrawal, whether an affair is ongoing or not.

In Plan A, you eliminate IB just like you strive to eliminate DJs, SDs and AOs. You also try to eliminate lies, unless we are talking about things directly related to breaking up the affair and the strategy to accomplish that goal. But even lies of commission are not always what damaged the marriage in most cases but lies of omission. It is failing to be radically honest about stuff that takes a toll on the relationship as it applies to daily activities, that stopping off for a pint after work on Friday, the golf at 8am on Saturday without using POJA to set it up...

You confront the affair every chance you get. You attack the affair with every method you can muster. You make the affair more work and effort than it is worth. You try to do it without attacking the WS and without any Love Busters, including IB.

If you ever get to recovery, the only part that changes is the strategy you kept hidden to fight the affair. Once the affair ends, that ceases to exist and then you have nothing left that is to be kept secret.

Ideally, even the end of the affair will be the result of POJA. With luck the WS will be in enthusiastic agreement as to recovery and rebuilding the marriage and having no contact with the AP for life.

This stuff isn't just theory. It is real life stuff, everyday stuff...

If Wheels had gone around smashing things, yelling constantly and basically just doing whatever the hell he felt like doing, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

Plan A is a plan of SELF control.

[/rant]

Mark1952 #2420324 08/24/10 02:46 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 201
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 201
I had to comment!!! Hang in there and PLEASE listen to Melody. I have spent months reading her threads, saving marriage after marriage.

I really am so sorry you are going through this, it is so painful. We are in R. and that is hard as well. I actually hope you some day get there. Saving a marriage is better than splitting up a family.

FYI, not sure this helps, but I found his Affair Phone in his car, back seat in the flap. I read everything, then gave him a choice (we were already in R. he just had not gotten out to destroy it), he take a hammer to it or me. I did it and it felt great, BUT after I wish I hadn't.

HU

Last edited by HalfUnit; 08/24/10 07:06 PM.

HalfUnit
Me-BS-50
H-WS-46
HalfUnit #2420373 08/24/10 05:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Thanks Halfunit!

As far as POJA goes, as with anything in Plan A, the best you can do is express a willingness to meet needs and engage in the POJA in the FUTURE if she ends her affair.

Using the POJA or Radical honesty with a person who is abusive can be very dangerous. As Mark stated, this does not apply to the affair! For example, the POJA states "never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse." If we used POJA in an affair situation, then exposure would be OUT because no adulterer is going to agree to exposure. If we used Radical Honesty, snooping would be rendered null. The general rule is "don't negotiate with a terrorist!"

So save the POJA for when it is SAFE!

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely. Your conclusions are correct. "


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2420516 08/25/10 08:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
I went home from work yesterday evening and we had dinner together. Wife's sister-in-law called so she went outside to talk to her. I cleaned up the dishes and the kitchen and played with the kids and helped her get the baths and ready for bed.

I did some snooping for that phone while she was taking a shower, and no joy on that. A question on that... if she has one of these phone's does she have to provide some information like an e-mail address or card number. Seems like there would be some way to trace it?

Anyways, we watched a little tv together, with no discussion, and I told her a loved her when I said good night. She's sleeping on the couch nowadays by her own choice.

This morning when I left for work, she was still asleep on the couch and I gave her a kiss and told her I loved her again. She only said have a good day.

Any words of criticism or advice on how to do things better?


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2420519 08/25/10 08:07 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
Any words of criticism or advice on how to do things better?


Nope! Your doing great!! laugh Keep snooping and working your plan A, doing great!

SteveinJAX #2420520 08/25/10 08:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
Quote
Anyways, we watched a little tv together, with no discussion, and I told her a loved her when I said good night. She's sleeping on the couch nowadays by her own choice.

Had a quick thought, dunno if it is worth anything. You are Plan Aing right? Schoolbus' thread on body language got me thinking. Does your wife let you touch her at all? Perhaps before bed you could sit with her on the couch and gently touch her face, or stroke her hair. Just for a little while before bed time - then get up and go to bed. As you leave let her know that you would like for her to join you. When she rejects your offer say 'ok' then go to bed.

Most women respond to non sexual affection.

Just a thought to help your Plan A game -


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2420544 08/25/10 09:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
No she isn't letting me touch her. Sometimes I try to rub her shoulders or her head (she likes her head rubbed).

I've let her know that our bed is her bed too, and she is welcome, but for now she is choosing to sleep on the couch.

I am still in plan A.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2420675 08/25/10 12:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 533
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 533
My FWW had a tough time touching me and letting me touch her, it was just one of those things that I had to work around. I severly missed it, and I know for certain that she needs someone there just to touch her. It drove me crazy knowing that she did not like ME touching her.

My mistake is that I started thinking poisonous thoughts, like my FWW did not want to touch me because it would make her feel like she would be cheating on the OM, with me. I started to think I was the OM in her affair, I was no longer the BS.

These are tough times, with tough decisions, and you have to do what you can to avoid falling from Plan A into Plan C or D. If you try to touch her and she shrugs it off, don't think too much about it. Try something else, but don't get discouraged when everything you try is dismissed and unacknowledged.

Last edited by Wheels_spinning; 08/25/10 12:35 PM.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
Thanks, Wheels. It is very frustrating to me that the very things I used to do like touching her are now unwelcomed. I don't let it show that it bothers me, honestly I have been refraining from doing these things other than the kisses on her cheek or forehead at night and in the morning.

I try to think positive thoughts, and one day this will be behind us, but I know it's a long road to recovery if we can get there before Plan D.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2420770 08/25/10 02:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Plan A ideas/possibilities:

Fill her car with gas.
Buy her favorite beverage.
Play music and dance around the house.
Sing off key, joyously.
Play board games with the 5 year old.
Take the 5 year old out on a "Date with Daddy". (text WW photos of your date)
Take a shower with the 1 year old.
Clean the bathroom.
Put a flower in a vase. (just one)
Call her parents and tell them how beautiful their daughter is.
Put her favorite DVD in and start the movie and pop popcorn.

.....

And, tell her she smells good.

Pepperband #2420857 08/25/10 06:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 86
Thanks, some good ideas. I'll try some of them out over the next few days.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
Page 13 of 13 1 2 11 12 13

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (Overcomer4513), 140 guests, and 49 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Overcomer4513, caraduke, Convict20, GTNY, Avianna
71,737 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,550
Posts2,322,804
Members71,737
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5