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Sorry if I missed this, but do you have an attorney yet?


-SOL
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Scotland and School Bus,

I'm with you. Show her I'm strong and confident. She'll get the picture.

So I should make these plans and demands without committing LB's right?


Last edited by MichaelJan; 08/20/10 10:37 AM.
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SoL,

Yeah, I have a lawyer.

I hate going to him. We talk about divorce, a topic I loathe. He costs $250 an hour. And Honey and I should be talking about reconciliation, not breaking up our family.

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MJ,

you said: ""And Honey and I should be talking about reconciliation""

Did I miss something here?

So when did W-Honey (that W is for WAYWARD remember?? as in being a continuing ADULTRESS) change her thinking, do a total 180, and want to move home????

Dude, you may want to face the facts. Unless you do some hard earth shaking changes in your interaction with W-Honey as Schoolbus suggests, you are going to stay in this limbo until the Big D bus runs over you.

I jussayinn...

kirk


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krusht #2419406 08/21/10 02:47 PM
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Kirk writes,

Quote:
Did I miss something here?

So when did W-Honey (that W is for WAYWARD remember?? as in being a continuing ADULTRESS) change her thinking, do a total 180, and want to move home????


Honey did what you might call a 90 degree angle this afternoon. faint While I made my we-can-still-have-a-great-marriage-speech, she choked up and shed a tear. She hasn't showed emotion like this all year. Her fog seemed to lift. shocked Should I send her web links about how to recover a marriage from adultery or do some research on the topic?

That's the short version of this post. The long version is a recap of today's events, such as they were. Honey drove over to pick up our girls from my apartment. She was in a good mood. She smiled, laughed, and asked a few questions. She even stepped foot into my apartment, which she had stayed away from. And she asked DD3 while holding her if DD3 had congratulated me for getting a job. After we got the girls in her car, I talked with her on the other side of her car, near DD1.5. Then I made my speech, which I had rehearsed last night and today. Here's what I said:

Quote:
We can still have a great marriage. I still love you. I still consider you my love bug. I still want to make you happy. And I know that I didn't make you happy, because I put my career above your happiness. But I know exactly what it takes for us to build a new lifestyle and have not only a good marriage but a great marriage. Can I send you some links from female marriages coaches* about what it takes?


Honey choked up after I said that I had not made her happy and continued to be emotional until after the great marriage quote. I was emotional too. I didn't cry, I didn't choke up, and I didn't whimper. But I felt happy after she left. For the first time all year, I felt that we were walking out of the forest of limboland and toward the sun-streamed land of hope and dreams. I walked back to my apartment and parked it on my old orange couch.

A few minutes later, I realized that her fog has not entirely lifted. frown She didn't contact me at all yesterday, a day when I took care of the girls at my place, which indicates usually she's with OM. mad As late as Thursday, she was still talking about (divorce) lawyers. And when I asked her if she would read the links, she didn't reply. Instead, with our girls crying and talking in the back, she said, "I gotta go." At a minimum, she is sitting on the fence.

I'm encouraged but also cautious. She acted like this before she took our girls home to see her family for Christmas; after inviting me into her apartment and us talking for half an hour, she gave me a hug. And she choked up in her apartment complex's parking lot about a month after we moved out. So do I strike while the iron is hot and send those links now?

* Honey (aka "W-Honey") is a feminist, more so since she decided to move out. She insisted that we see a female marital couch. She seeks out books by female authors. And she doesn't trust men much, including priests.

--------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Last edited by MichaelJan; 08/23/10 06:19 PM.
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I certainly would NOT send her here. She is still sitting too much on what she thinks is the pathway OUT.

You need to show her your changes, stick to Plan A, and do NOT do anything that moves this marriage toward a divorce. Whenever she talks about divorce, tell her you want to try a marital coach instead, and ask her to counsel with the Harleys. they have females.

Ask her to do you just one small favor.

It is important that as you make this request that you are extremely calm, that you do not beg, that you do not sound wimpy, and that you ask her in a "man to man" mindset.

I say "man to man" for a reason. You must talk to her as you would talk to a FRIEND - not as your wife. You MUST use distance emotionally during this talk, and she MUST feel that from you. You must be cordial to her, but NOT LOVING. Remember that. Be physically distant, at least four feet away from her. Look at her face, but not intently. Be serious in your interaction, and ask her for this information as you might ask for business information. She must not see it as anything else.

Tell her that one of the things you are working on in your self-improvement is that you are carefully looking at how marriage works, in particular your own role in your marriage to her. You want to understand what you did wrong, how you can improve, and you are looking at marriage "in the greater sense". do not tell her what you have been reading, but do tell her you have been reading articles and information which led you to ask this.

Ask her to do you a favor, and would she write you a brief description of what she thinks the greatest marriage would include - what it would be like - and what she thinks you did that contributed to her looking outside your marriage to get her emotional needs met. Tell her it does not have to be long, she doesn't have to feel like she has to be over critical, just identify what she thinks the main points are.

Tell her that it is important to you, as a person, and that it has absolutely NO BEARING on whether you two remain married or not. You need this information to go into your own future - because if you remain married you need it, and if you divorce, you will need it to begin a new life with another woman, because you do not ever want to duplicate these mistakes in another marriage. You want to learn from your mistakes.


Watch her reaction.


This will tell you a great deal.




Most likely, she will initially decline.

Then, you will get a letter, and it will be clear to her intent.


The letter may be very direct, and tell you exactly what you asked. This shows you distance, but could also show possible conciliatory position as well. Because you know her, you should be able to tell where she is leaning.

The letter may be angry, and may come from a very harsh and retaliatory point of view. You will understand that one!

The letter may come from her heart, and she may tell you very up front exactly which way she is thinking. She may not be harsh, but she may reveal everything you need to know, and she may state her intentions in a way that you will understand for your future.


At any rate, if you ask the "favor" correctly, my money is on her writing to you, and on her telling you exactly what your future with her holds.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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schoolbus,

I will heed your counsel: Ask that she write me a letter about what the greatest marriage would include. As I am at Kinko's and without web access at home, a condition of my Plan A, I cannot comment at length. But don't worry; I will write more tomorrow. Thanks again.

--------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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Hi schoolbus,

In re-reading your post from Saturday, I am uncertain about the intent of my future talk with Honey. Is it to show her my confidence and strength or to determine her interest in continuing our marriage?

----------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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Both.

You are basically unemotional, because you have to be "business like" in this conversation with her in order to show that you are serious about your changes. Also, because the idea of begging her to do this for you is

weak

and you are not to beg, in any way, shape or form. This is a business request, nothing more. If you cannot ask her in that way, then do not do it.

When you believe you have the self-control and strength to ask her in a business-like manner, then ask.

This is an important exercise with her, and it will gain - for you - a great deal of information.

It will determine her CURRENT interest in continuing your marriage. That doesn't mean much, of course, because the fact is if you are able to control yourself, become strong, show strength, and not be weak/begging....and make that a permanent change....your chances of being more attractive increase.

You see that, right?

NEVER approach her unless you are approaching from a confident position. That doesn't mean you show anger, or abrasiveness. Just confidence and strength. No begging, no submissiveness, no sheepishness, no cowering.

This exercise also tells you information that YOU NEED. If she agrees to write this stuff down for you, it will tell you what you did wrong......and right.....

and whether or not your marriage survives



you need that information.


Either way, you get that information if she writes the letter.

And you lose NOTHING by asking. You gain everything by showing strength by asking for it in the first place.


SB


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schoolbus,

I see that. No matter what I do, I show her strength and confidence. Don't be a doormat or wimp. Thank you. This advice helps.

Is asking her in person better than asking her on the phone? Or does it matter?

By the way, I am interested in her changed attitude toward me. Any idea if she is still seeing the OM or just sitting on the fence between us?

-------------

Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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Now is a good time to show strength and confidence to Honey. She wants our daughters for Thanksgiving AND Christmas. This is in addition to two whole weeks she will have had with them this year; and she had our girls for Christmas last year. Talk about entitled. Honey is Miss Entitled USA.

She called me after 10 last night wanting to resolve our holiday plans. Or HER holiday plans; she had a meeting to discuss her plans at work this morning. No lead time, no advance warning -- here are my dates, she said.

I called back and left a message. Bad news, I said: I get a week and a half off at Christmas rather than two weeks. You going home to see your family from Dec. 18-26 ain't going to work, I said. I need a week with our girls at least, I said. She called back and attempted to get her way. We haggled a bit. Then our talks broke off. I made clear she's not getting everything she wants.

I showed strength and confidence to her. Whether I showed enough is another question. I may have committed an LB by raising my voice when she said something insulting; she said that my insistence on getting our girls at Christmas because it's December 25 is one of my family's "hang ups." And I did not lay down the law, as in, "No, absolutely not; taking the girls for a whole week before and during Christmas is unacceptable. I was thinking of Dr. Harley's policies governing negotiation.

She ticked me off. I lost half an hour of sleep last night thinking about her proposal and inconsiderate actions. She did this despite her apparent change of heart on Saturday.

Then I thought of things more philosophically. This is a new phase for me, I guess: a time to test my strength and confidence. I've had other phases before; times when I was tempted to dump Honey and date other women; times when my job prospects were bleak and reconciliation between Honey and I seemed impossible. For every season, turn, turn, turn, right?

Any thoughts about how to show strength and confidence to a WS while adhering to Dr. Harley's negotiation strategy?

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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She left an email message and talked with me. Now she's talking (divorce) lawyers again. Aghh!

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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Big advice:

Look at the big picture. In the end, it isn't about you, but it is about your kids.

Yes, there needs to be an equitable division of time in the holidays. Does she get a week off? Does she wish to take the kids?

The fact is that you will have to swap out years, as is the norm. This year they spend the 25th with you, next year it's with her.

Part of this phaze is the acceptance of the reality that you're lviing in seperate homes and the WW has the hardest time understanding that you, as a dad, have a say in things whether she likes it or not.

So yes, stick to your guns, but understand that whatever you get this year, you lose next year.

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Where is she staying? Is she still at the home? If she is not where are the kids staying?

How long are you in plan A for? Doesn't sound like your wife wants this marriage and is pushing you away further no matter how good you are doing plan A. Have you thought about your plan B?

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helpthelostdads,

Thanks. You're right: I need to look at the big picture; it's about the kids, not me. (Exactly; our girls are a big reason for me to stay in the marriage.

Sapphire Returns writes,

Quote:
Where is she staying? Is she still at the home? If she is not where are the kids staying?


Honey moved out last fall. She lives about 20 minutes away; I'm in the city, she's in a suburb. Our girls spend 4.5 days with her, 2.5 with me.

You also ask,

Quote:
How long are you in plan A for? Doesn't sound like your wife wants this marriage and is pushing you away further no matter how good you are doing plan A. Have you thought about your plan B?


I'm in in Plan A till November at least. Actually, she's not pushing me away. She's blowing hot and cold. Late last week, she talked about divorce lawyers; on Saturday, when I made my save-our-marriage speech, she shed a tear and choked up. This morning, she talked about the (divorce) lawyers; this afternoon, she sent me an adorable picture of our two daughters, the first time she's sent me a picture in six months at least.

Any thoughts on her mercurial actions? Color me confused.

I have thought about Plan B. In fact, I plan to have dinner Sunday night with a couple who could serve as our intermediaries.

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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You need to make sure when you are in plan B that you will be able to still see your girls!

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Sapphire

Definitely; I will make sure I see our girls.

By the way, I think Honey's email of our girls was a ploy. She used it as a carrot to get me to agree for her to spend more time with our kids at Christmas-time.

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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HAHAHA! See...she only sent that pix FOR HER not for YOU! See how selfish she is? WOW!

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Sapphire writes,

Quote:
HAHAHA! See...she only sent that pix FOR HER not for YOU! See how selfish she is? WOW!


I'm guessing she sent the pic as a ploy; I don't know for sure. You might be right; you might not. Her warm reaction to me Saturday did not seem calculated at all.

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 318
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Last week, Schoolbus advised me to do the following:

Quote:
It is important that as you make this request that you are extremely calm, that you do not beg, that you do not sound wimpy, and that you ask her in a "man to man" mindset.

I say "man to man" for a reason. You must talk to her as you would talk to a FRIEND - not as your wife. You MUST use distance emotionally during this talk, and she MUST feel that from you. You must be cordial to her, but NOT LOVING. Remember that. Be physically distant, at least four feet away from her. Look at her face, but not intently. Be serious in your interaction, and ask her for this information as you might ask for business information. She must not see it as anything else.

Tell her that one of the things you are working on in your self-improvement is that you are carefully looking at how marriage works, in particular your own role in your marriage to her. You want to understand what you did wrong, how you can improve, and you are looking at marriage "in the greater sense". do not tell her what you have been reading, but do tell her you have been reading articles and information which led you to ask this.

Ask her to do you a favor, and would she write you a brief description of what she thinks the greatest marriage would include - what it would be like - and what she thinks you did that contributed to her looking outside your marriage to get her emotional needs met. Tell her it does not have to be long, she doesn't have to feel like she has to be over critical, just identify what she thinks the main points are.

Tell her that it is important to you, as a person, and that it has absolutely NO BEARING on whether you two remain married or not. You need this information to go into your own future - because if you remain married you need it, and if you divorce, you will need it to begin a new life with another woman, because you do not ever want to duplicate these mistakes in another marriage. You want to learn from your mistakes.


I heeded Schoolbus' advice. And I think my talk went well. But it's hard to tell. Honey hasn't written me a letter yet.

On Saturday, while she picked up our girls from my apartment, I gave her my speech. My tone was low key and calm, serious but not grave, friendly but not loving. Also, I said pretty much everything Schoolbus advised: in my plan for self improvement, I'm looking at marriage, particulary my role in it ... I've been reading ... Would you write a letter ... the greatest marriage ... my faults as a hunband and my areas for improvement ... The letter doesn't need to be harsh .. It's important and would help me. Whether we remain married or we get divorced and I have a new relationship with another woman ... I want to learn from my mistakes.

Honey listened intently to my speech. She wasn't irritated at all, despite that our girls in the back of her car were squawking and two mosquitoes flew in. She told them, "Daddy has something to tell Mommy," and asked if they would they be be quiet.

She was also sanguine. When I told her that the letter didn't need to be harsh, she chuckled.

She agreed that the idea of me getting her views would be helpful. When I said the bit about "whether we remain married or get divorced," she nodded her head; she didn't reject the idea.

She did not commit to writing a letter. When I asked if she would write such a letter or email, she said, "Let me think about it."

I don't know what to think. At the time, I was pleased with my peformance and her reaction. She seemed open to the idea and I felt good that I was taking the lead on our marriage. And when she says "Let me think about it," she usually means she will agree to help. After I walked from her parking spot to my apartment, I wrote to myself, "Bottomline: I deposited love units. She knows I'm changing for the better and am serious about improving my self."

That said, Honey has yet to write me. And who knows if she will. She's conflict averse, so I'm not holding my breath.

-------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10


Last edited by MichaelJan; 08/30/10 05:55 PM.
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