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I did send her a letter maybe a month ago stating that I wanted her to end the affair and that once that was over I would like to create an a place for her in our house that was peaceful and loving and where we could begin to work on our marriage. Repeat it. But don't be a doormat. There should be clearly spelled out conditions -- actually, I don't like the term "conditions" -- it smacks of coersion to me. I like boundaries. Boundaries are about you, not her, and since you can't control her anyway, you need to keep the focus on you. You can make it playful and flirty -- "hey, you look really great today -- I love that color on you. Reminds me of the time we were at the beach and took a walk to the pier -- you were wearing that same color and I couldn't take my eyes off of you. I can't wait to have my sexy wife back home as soon as you completely end your A." No contact (NC) with the other man (OM), with you given the opportunity to verify, must be a non-negociable boundary. You'll go crazy otherwise, plus, although she won't see it this way, it's for her own good. Sadly, I know what I'm talking about here. On D-Day (DD) 3, NC was the only condition my H put on me. At that point, I knew full well how incredibly screwed up I was. I told him that I wouldn't commit to something I wasn't sure I could do, that I had imposed NC on myself many times, but never stuck with it, that I wasn't trustworthy on any level as I didn't even trust myself, and that, while I hoped to become a trustworthy person again, I had no idea when or even if that would happen. I decided maybe I'm just a lying, cheating, mean hearted bi%^*. We divided the assets, discussed how to handle the children, and parted. All I felt was enormous relief. I had zero interest in contacting OM. What happened? I realized that if I couldn't trust myself to end the clearly absurd relationship I had with OM, I surely couldn't trust myself to make a decision as big as a D. I decided not to decide anything except to end the A. My only goal every day was to not contact OM and I devoted virtually all of my emotional energy to that. I ran over every scenario I could think of that might lessen my resolve and made a plan to get past it. Instituting and maintaining NC was the single most important thing I needed to do, more important than my H or my kids or my mother who went into the hospital for 8 days for heart surgery -- I called her exactly once for three minutes because she is so toxic to me that I feared I would spend so much emotional energy I would lose faith and contact OM. I came here, started posting and fighting, and read. One day I stumbled on a post from Just Learning on Hitch2007's thread about setting boundaries, and something clicked. This was the ticket out of my self imposed hell, a hell that was not limited to my M. My boundary issues -- as in I don't have any -- infect every relationship I have. I figured I needed to start practicing on someone and it may as well be my H as I didn't much care what he thought since we were getting a D anyway. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum.... I told H my biggest issue which is expecting me to drop what I'm doing when he needs something. Since he works at home and I am a stay at home mom, I was constantly available for whatever. My Giver always complied with his needs. This made my Taker exceedingly unhappy. If you haven't read Dr. Harley's article on the Giver and Taker, do it. You have FOUR children -- I'd be shocked if your W's Giver isn't worn out and her Taker is driving the train. H doesn't like my independent behavior so I check in with my specific plans. He hasn't demanded or even asked me to do that. I view it as basic a basic courtesy I have neglected, made all the more critical because of my A. I mean really -- letting him worry and stew is just mean. I goof up -- last Saturday I went to get my nails done which I knew was going to take twice as long as usual, but I didn't think to mention that. After a few hours he asked me in a really tight voice where I had been and that's OK -- I have to stay mindful, but that's just being nice. He's not being as controlling because I'm checking in. Anyway, we set some boundaries. He doesn't interrupt me any more. I tell him what I'm doing. I like him better so I treat him better. He likes me better so he treats me better. So here is another stack of paperwork that in my mind she is going to be "like a woman on a mission" to get every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed on. You have a year before you can be legally divorced. Let her have at it. It gives her the illusion she is moving forward. But I wouldn't participate. No where is it written that you have to show up at the lawyer's office. Set a boundary -- "I am not going to meet with you and your lawyer, ever. You are free to proceed of course, although I hope you won't. However, understand that I am not going to facilitate the process for you. If you feel you must go forward, I respect that decision. Have your lawyer send me the papers and I will respond in due course." I used to be a trial lawyer (I think I told you that?) The family lawyers that I know would slow walk your W big time. She's clearly unstable and there are four children at stake. ALL litigation favors the party who wants to delay, put off and postpone. And all of that delaying, putting off and postponing gets really expensive, really quick. How is she paying for the lawyer? You can use the time and expense to your advantage. At this point we have agreed to only discuss children related topics Talking about the kids is a great opportunity for you to make some $LB deposits. I'll tell you what our MC told my H: "Mothers experience criticism of their children as criticism of them, even when that criticism comes from the father." I would never have been able to articulate that but it is so true. So if my H would say, for example, our son doesn't brush his teeth often or well enough, I experience that as "you have failed to teach your son basic hygiene." Is that what H was really saying? Of course not. But that's how moms are. So praising your children to your wife is praise of her. Don't get all obvious and say "you have done such a great job." Pick stuff you know she has focused on and praise the kid, not her. For example, you have a 14 year old. She either is or isn't wearing make up. Your W has addressed that. You say "I am so impressed that D14 doesn't wear make up when all her friends are" or "have you noticed how much more tasteful D14's makeup is than her friends?" Asking W's advice is another kind of praise. "How in the world do I get the S to put his dirty clothes in the hamper -- you managed that well. What's your secret? You said you hate your W, and why wouldn't you? She's being hateful. But the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. I was swinging in between hate and indifference for years prior to and in my A. Indifference was the bigger threat. As long as you hate each other, there is something to work with. Have you watched the video blurb from Dr. H on the home page? Do it. I follow you and Northwood because I see something a different from the typical WW A profile. I see women who are in enormous, soul destroying pain who don't see a way out and are blowing up their lives not out of some BS love for their soulmate OM, but because they hurt so badly they have to do something, even if it's wrong. And call SteveH. You need a plan. Seriously. I'm not all that easily impressed, and I've only spoken to him the one time (second time tomorrow) but he knows stuff.
WS M: 25 years D21, S19, S15
Rome wasn't built in a day -- but it was built.
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Saddestwife:
That was an earful!!!! I need to go back and read it again but WOW, thanks for the words...
I will also follow up with comments today.
LG:
I will post our life prior to June 2010 shortly also.
Getting a little emotional with all this great support..!
Thank you ALL so much. I will post more shortly
-DAT68
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OK. Who ARE you and what did you do with saddestwife? ![grin grin](/ubbt/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif)
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LG:
We met in 1998 and at the time she was seeing married man (I know I know)....During that time she and I became best friends and she had a 2 year old. About 2 years later we starting dating. Her affair at the time had been over more than a year.
We moved into together and I became a "father" to her daughter.
We tried to have children and after 4 miscarriage's we had a son in 2004. Tried to adopt the next year and she became pregnant again and we had a daughter.
2.5 years later (FEB 2009) we decided to adopt.
Her reason for leaving is that I "emotionally abused her".
Yes, I was not there for her emotionally all the time, yes we did not kiss and say I love you everyday.
I have an issue with shutting down. Even if the issue is not family related. I don't know what it is, I just go into a whole and stop interacting. She knows this and can see it coming and will once in while say "I see it coming".
I never hit her, she never needs to look for me, stable in work, paycheck in the bank every two weeks and I do a lot with the kids. We vacation when we can and do family events.
However, when we do fight, the gloves come off from both of us. Name calling, not talking for 2-3 days, we both are alpha in the marriage to say the least.
So FEB 2009 we start and FEB 2010 we go to Africa and bring home a 4 year old.
Late June she tells me she is unhappy and wants out but will work on it.
July 11 she leaves and stays with a friend. July 20th we have our first appointment to seek marriage help and the night of July 19th she tells me its over.
Prior to that on July 3rd I found an email she sent a friend about the OM and sex. She denied it
July 8th she talked me into buying for her and with her a new BMW July 9th I had the text logs from her phone and the OM's phone to match it
Confronted her that day, she admitted it and wanted to move forward and fix us.
2 days later she left.
Lies after lies since then. And to top it off, she is 35 and the OM is 20...I am 42
She has said to me over and over she misses her twenties. She was pregnant at 20 so I think she sees this guy at the point where she started to "miss her twenties" because she was pregnant
As far as us, yes we fight, and yes we have said hurtful things to each other. However, since we started dating in 2000, we have had three kids together, we have grown as a family together, 401K's, bought a house together and then another that was bigger, new cars, education funds together for the kids, etc. If you call that "normal progression" then yes we had that.
Now she hates me, is nice to me when we talk and cold sometimes. She came over this morning to walk to the bus stop for the first day of school, grabbed a few things from the house and was nice to me.
The 14 year lives with her full time and really does not like me anymore. She sides with her natural parent, her Mother.
Today my wife told me I needed to call her (the 14 year old) more and asked if taking our 14 year old Saturday and having some fun would be something I would like? I said of course!
So why? Why does she want to fix the relationship with the 14 and I? I know why it needs to be fixed, I am her Dad...But why would she care?
As far as our sex life...1-2 times a month was normal, sometimes more. Having 4 kids run the house makes sex almost funny.
"kids just all went outside, lets run upstairs"...Start - knock on door stop. O.k they left - start - knock on door - Start - knock on door. NO KIDDING!
Or it was 5:30 in the morning in the walk in closet while everyone was asleep
During the adoption process my wife started working at a KFC. Starting talking and hanging with 20-25 year olds. She loves that HS gossip stuff. Half her FB friends are like Class of 2010
So some 20 year old came along and started his nice talk to her and she took the bait. My wife is a little over weight and I have lost 42 pounds. My wife runs a lot, got me involved and now I can fun faster and farther.
This guys does not care about that, he wants her naked a few times. She takes the compliments and acts on it.
35 year old housewife and mother of 4 with a 20 year old that drinks and partied a lot. Were is that future?
I told her, he is a guy, so am I, he wants sex alone and once he's got it out of his system AND once he turns 21 and can get into bars, HE IS DONE WITH YOU!
Ugghh...I am getting upset....So I will stop there. There is more to it and I will gladly share..
So she claims no affair happen to ALL our common friends. Then why 3 months after our son got here from Africa and after you said yes to marriage help did you bail out and leave?
-DAT68
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Dat:
Thanks for all the info.
So, you have a problem with shutting down? Until you decide to attack back as the Alpha guy?
Please learn about the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) here. She may not be on board, but maybe one of the things that you could address in a letter to here, is how you saw this dynamic NOT woring in your marriage, so that in the future you could do it "this way".
Plan A is about addressing your side of the street, while trying to meet EN's that you are allowed to meet by the wayward spouse.
She wants you to be a "friend" with her DD14 so that it isn't the WW's fault that your relationship with DD14 is blown up.
You are the ONLY person this girl KNOWS as a father. Act like one. Go see DD14 and invite her to family activities with her siblings. Send her short texts aksing her how she is. She has been pulled AWAY from you by someone who doesn't have her best interests at heart. And WW has probably told DD14 how evil you really are. But even estrogen charged 14YO's understand right and wrong. And you need to start building YOUR case for being in the right on all this.
I didn't realize there was a new flavor on the menu at KFC....
The lack of SF in the marriage can be prevented. Children can be taught that there is time for Mommy and Daddy. And Mommy and Daddy have to plan for thier time. That's why the Harleys have 15 hours of Undivided Attention (U/A) time a week. Where the two of you are together, without the distractions of the kids, tv, sports, school, etc... Sound impossible? What do you think this divorce is going to cost? $10k to lawyers, and becasue of two houses, and breaking up house equity, 401k's etc, another 20-30K.
Finding UA time is alot cheaper...
Work the UA, shutting down, and "alpha" angles. They may make a world of difference in her stating that you are emotionally abusing her.
As for the denying the A thing, that is her idea of protecting herself from being labeled a cheater. "I decided to exit the marriage, move out, and then "BOOM" OM showed up! Its an amazing love story isn't it?" Its all garbage. And its what she will continue to tell others, unless you expose it for what it really is. Your talking to a mutual friend, and they state the WW has said that it all happened "after", just calmly state that "No, it didn't, I have the TM's, and the email's, and other info that clearly indicate that this thing started three months before she moved out." Keep it simple.
LG
LG
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LG:
I plan to fix the issues with my daughter no doubt.
I did invite her to a birthday party for her younger sister this past Saturday and once she got dropped off, she left the house and went to a friends. I sent her a text and she came back just to ask me why?
Sent her a text this morning and got nothing back and about 10 minutes ago. I am trying and won't stop trying.
"The lack of SF in the marriage can be prevented. Children can be taught that there is time for Mommy and Daddy. And Mommy and Daddy have to plan for thier time. That's why the Harleys have 15 hours of Undivided Attention (U/A) time a week. Where the two of you are together, without the distractions of the kids, tv, sports, school, etc... Sound impossible? What do you think this divorce is going to cost? $10k to lawyers, and becasue of two houses, and breaking up house equity, 401k's etc, another 20-30K."
How to I get this time when she wants nothing to do with me? I want this to work and 15 hours is NOTHING but for a person that won't try, how do I do this?
Thanks so much
-DAT68
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BTW, I am seeing a counselor about my shutting down issue and have been for a couple months
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LG:
We met in 1998 and at the time she was seeing married man (I know I know)....During that time she and I became best friends and she had a 2 year old. About 2 years later we starting dating. Her affair at the time had been over more than a year.
We moved into together and I became a "father" to her daughter.
We tried to have children and after 4 miscarriage's we had a son in 2004. Tried to adopt the next year and she became pregnant again and we had a daughter.
2.5 years later (FEB 2009) we decided to adopt.
Her reason for leaving is that I "emotionally abused her".
Yes, I was not there for her emotionally all the time, yes we did not kiss and say I love you everyday.
I have an issue with shutting down. Even if the issue is not family related. I don't know what it is, I just go into a whole and stop interacting. She knows this and can see it coming and will once in while say "I see it coming".
I never hit her, she never needs to look for me, stable in work, paycheck in the bank every two weeks and I do a lot with the kids. We vacation when we can and do family events.
However, when we do fight, the gloves come off from both of us. Name calling, not talking for 2-3 days, we both are alpha in the marriage to say the least.
So FEB 2009 we start and FEB 2010 we go to Africa and bring home a 4 year old.
Late June she tells me she is unhappy and wants out but will work on it.
July 11 she leaves and stays with a friend. July 20th we have our first appointment to seek marriage help and the night of July 19th she tells me its over.
Prior to that on July 3rd I found an email she sent a friend about the OM and sex. She denied it
July 8th she talked me into buying for her and with her a new BMW July 9th I had the text logs from her phone and the OM's phone to match it
Confronted her that day, she admitted it and wanted to move forward and fix us.
2 days later she left.
Lies after lies since then. And to top it off, she is 35 and the OM is 20...I am 42
She has said to me over and over she misses her twenties. She was pregnant at 20 so I think she sees this guy at the point where she started to "miss her twenties" because she was pregnant
As far as us, yes we fight, and yes we have said hurtful things to each other. However, since we started dating in 2000, we have had three kids together, we have grown as a family together, 401K's, bought a house together and then another that was bigger, new cars, education funds together for the kids, etc. If you call that "normal progression" then yes we had that.
Now she hates me, is nice to me when we talk and cold sometimes. She came over this morning to walk to the bus stop for the first day of school, grabbed a few things from the house and was nice to me.
The 14 year lives with her full time and really does not like me anymore. She sides with her natural parent, her Mother.
Today my wife told me I needed to call her (the 14 year old) more and asked if taking our 14 year old Saturday and having some fun would be something I would like? I said of course!
So why? Why does she want to fix the relationship with the 14 and I? I know why it needs to be fixed, I am her Dad...But why would she care?
As far as our sex life...1-2 times a month was normal, sometimes more. Having 4 kids run the house makes sex almost funny.
"kids just all went outside, lets run upstairs"...Start - knock on door stop. O.k they left - start - knock on door - Start - knock on door. NO KIDDING!
Or it was 5:30 in the morning in the walk in closet while everyone was asleep
During the adoption process my wife started working at a KFC. Starting talking and hanging with 20-25 year olds. She loves that HS gossip stuff. Half her FB friends are like Class of 2010
So some 20 year old came along and started his nice talk to her and she took the bait. My wife is a little over weight and I have lost 42 pounds. My wife runs a lot, got me involved and now I can fun faster and farther.
This guys does not care about that, he wants her naked a few times. She takes the compliments and acts on it.
35 year old housewife and mother of 4 with a 20 year old that drinks and partied a lot. Were is that future?
I told her, he is a guy, so am I, he wants sex alone and once he's got it out of his system AND once he turns 21 and can get into bars, HE IS DONE WITH YOU!
Ugghh...I am getting upset....So I will stop there. There is more to it and I will gladly share..
So she claims no affair happen to ALL our common friends. Then why 3 months after our son got here from Africa and after you said yes to marriage help did you bail out and leave?
-DAT68 Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anywhere in here where it says you guys eventually got married. Did you?
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Sorry, yes we got married in October 2004.....
-DAT68
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dat68,
Thanks for creating not only a thread that helps you but also others. Just the other day I was thinking that the MB board needed a thread in which FWW shared their stories of marital recovery. No kidding.
Anyway, at the expense of hijacking your thread, I detect your disgust with wife sleeping with the 20 year old. I feel the same way about my WW. I understand her emotional attachment to the OM, but the sex, no way. Can FWW's explain the process by which they consented to having intercourse with another man? I don't get it, no pun intended.
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Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
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LG:
Can you point me to this "Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA"
I read it in your post but I have searched the site and I am not finding it
Thanks
-DAT68
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Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday
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Can FWW's explain the process by which they consented to having intercourse with another man? I'm willing to answer this question, but am wondering if a new thread should be started?? Is this a question a lot of BH's have? I'm not sure of the etiquette.
WS M: 25 years D21, S19, S15
Rome wasn't built in a day -- but it was built.
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I am also willing to answer this question...although the answer might not be what you expect, as I tend to take a pragmatic view of my choice to blow someone's else's life to bits. In other words, the more I observe and hear and experience, the more the whole "hurt people hurt people" thing just seems like blame-shifting tripe.
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dat68,
If it's OK by you, can we discuss the topic I mentioned -- the mental process by which a WW consents to have intercourse with the OM -- on your thread?
---------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
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MichaelJan:
That's fine with me.
I just read the post lurioosi2 posted and I think my heart just exploded. Made me a little sick to read that.
-DAT68
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I reread my pragmatic post and I think it came out wrong. What I meant was that now, 4 years later, I can see very clearly all the bull I decorated for myself back in 2006
I 2006: I slept with OM because he made me feel heard, he admired me, we talked about things, he was attractive in that grunge band irresponsible sort of way (mini puke), I had been sooooo lonely for sooooo long, DH didn't even see me anymore, we were like barely civil roommates, and I was dying inside, there was nothing for me in my life, OM was attracted to me, I thought I loved him (not so mini puke), my life was just soooooo (snif) painful (snif).....waaaaaaaaaahhh
In 2010
I slept with OM because my focus became all about me, I hardened my heart and myself against DH and what was right, I chose step by step to destroy what I promised to be faithful to until death so that I could feel good, I thought I deserved to be "happy."
As long as I had the 2006 mindset or any variation, I was still foggy and not really even worthy of recovery. The 2010 mindset (which crashed in on me pretty quickly - I say crashed because it's never fun to be honest about our failings without deflecting)was what was required for REAL recovery.
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Oh, and I did not sleep with OM in 2010...that was just the back then versus now time frame! Yeeks
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