Hi Jim.


That is the tough part though. The resentment/damage can simply be too great and too much to overcome even with the best of plans.

A big problem is also getting a FWS in the true sense of the word...they are rare.

Agree. To ask a spouse to do something she doesn't want to do is a renters approach that will not bring the BH what he wants. It only fosters aversion, which is the exact opposite of what he seeks.

One of the biggest mistakes I see made is when a betrayed spouse doesn't set any standard for recovery. Once the affair ends, he will think he is out of the woods and everything goes back to normal.

Well, it is not "normal" at all. It is simply a crippled version of the very bad marriage that led to the affair in the first place.

There has to actually be a PLAN for recovery or there is no point. With no plan, a repeat affair and/or years of misery can be the only result.

This is why I tell BS's they need to sit down the WS after the affair ends and tell them "I won't stay in a loveless, sick marriage. Here is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." And then roll out this program.


I encourage them to sell the program in a way that conveys to the WS that the goal is to create romantic love.

There is no point in staying, otherwise, unless you are a masochist. But setting such a standard benefits everyone because the result is a recovered marriage. The BS needs to LEAD his marriage out of the sewer. Marital recovery does not happen by accident.

And if the WS wont' commmit to recovery? Then what do you have to lose if you get divorced? Nothing except years of heartache. A WS who won't commit to recovering the marriage is dangerous. You are better off without her.

Best post ever, MelodyLane.

When it comes down to it, because Prisca and I haven't experienced infidelity, we probably don't have a lot to say to those who have. But this issue touches on me deeply. I hate to think of people who have been through all of the pain of infidelity and then go on to settle for a lousy marriage that keeps dragging the pain out for years. If they go through all that pain and then they only get as far as the painful place where Prisca and I started earlier this year, then that hardly seems worth it.

That's odd, I didn't suggest a 3 way, I clearly read all the prior posts, unlike the suggestion that said I didn't. So to those who are making that untrue assumption need to stop it now.

I clearly said if the request was respectful, which I believe falls under the definition of loving. I also clearly said it wasn't immoral, illegal or dangerous. And further, it was freely given the OM.

If all of those are true, and the WW STILL refuses to fulfill that respectful request, she is going to have a hard time convincing her BH that she cares more for him than she does the OM.

How many WW have come here saying that sex with the OM was exciting, but they didn't have that excitement in the marriage with their husband. So their husband has respectfully requested time and time again that she demonstrate some enthusiasm for sex with her husband.

But she cannot or will not do that.

If her BH knows she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but she is unwilling to be enthusiastic about sex with her BH, then what message is she sending her BH?

He's not making an unreasonable, degrading, dangerous or illegal request. Yet he's continually denied enthusiastic SF. Something that she offered the OM.

Are you going to keep telling me he's being unreasaonable?

That's odd, I've been through this thread and I don't see where the act is enumerated.

I do see where I and others have suggested the respectful request was NOT for something like a threesome.

Therefore, your criticism of what I've written is misplaced.

Likewise, refusing to meet a respectful request for meeting an EN that is not degrading, disrespectful, illegal, nor immoral is equally a renter's position.

Well, is the H meeting her EN's? Is he spending 15-20 hours of UA time with her? Is he doing everything in his power to help his wife fall back in love with him?

Affairs usually occur because the AP is meeting needs that were not being met in the marriage. It is very rare for a woman who is in a loving, fulfilling marriage to have an affair.

If her BH isn't willing to do the work necessary to repair the marriage and create an environment where his wife will be able to fall in love with him again, then yes, he is still being unreasonable if he expects his wife to just suddenly be enthusiastic about having SF with him again. Women generally are not enthusiastic about SF unless they are in love.

It takes two people to create a loving relationship, and both partners have to be willing to put in the work.

I was referring to the original thread by Ookfish that started this entire debate in the first place (not this particular thread, but several others). Her H was asking her to do things like have a threesome.

Of course, in order for recovery to occur, the couple needs to find their way back to a loving, mutually fulfilling SF life, but that doesn't just happen by itself, and it won't happen if the wife isn't in love with her H.

That's part of just compensation. If the WW has betrayed the marriage, she has to prove she is committed to the marriage. She may have to go it alone for a serious period of time to demonstrate to her BH that's she's both a safe and committed spouse.

Now she can't do that forever. But I believe a WW may need to do it longer than a BW has to do it because she's the one who has inflicted severe emotional damage on her BH.

A WW cannot just say in word and deed, "I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."

If she hasn't demonstrated that she's corrected her approach to the marriage, and sold her husband on the fact that she's a safe spouse and the MB program is the way he can get his needs met, we can't fault the BH for wanting out given his WW is not willing to put forth the effort to demonstrate the benefits of the program in a fashion he buys.

If you want the BH to be a buyer, one has to offer something that he's willing to buy.

This goes along with what MelodyLane is saying. The BH shouldn't set low standards. Most BH's should have higher standards. The consequence of following that advice is harder work for the WW to sell her husband on the MB plan.

This is where a trained and unbiased 3rd party is the best one to determine when enough is enough.

The WW may think she's done enough when it's not even close as measured by the BH. Likewise, the BH may think she's done nothing, when she's been working hard.

The trained 3rd party can judge if the effort has been on the right things, and if there really has been a sufficient effort.

The truth is probably in the middle, and it may take an unbiased 3rd party professional to help both see the perspective of the other.

But to expect 15 hours UA immediately after the WW has confessed her affair and established a solid NC is unrealistic.

What may be realistic is that she has to provide a credible, verifiable NC for a period of time, as well as plan A before it's even realistic to expect him to buy into the plan.

Any slip ups on her part reset that clock.

Likewise, refusing to meet a respectful request for meeting an EN that is not degrading, disrespectful, illegal, nor immoral is equally a renter's position. [/quote]

It most certainly IS NOT. It is a renter's trait to agree to make sacrifices that please only one person at your expense. A BUYER will refuse to do anything that brings unhappiness into the marriage. The value of any "request" is completely contingent upon making BOTH parties happy, not just one. It doesn't matter how "respectful" a request is made, if it makes the receiver unhappy, it should not be done. PERIOD.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.
Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Where does Marriage Builders teach this "respectful request" stuff? I can't find the policy where you have to grant all your spouse's requests if they are made respectfully.

I can find the basic concept that says that if you refuse to take no for an answer you are making a selfish demand and it will destroy your spouse's love for you. You can have any reason in the world for refusing to take no for an answer, including the idea that your request was sincere and respectful, and it still doesn't change the fact that you are making a demand.

So when the WW judges if the request is "fair" or not isn't she acting as a renter according to your definition.

One consequence of a WW having an affair is she just may turn her BH from the buyer he was before she had her affair into a renter.

Let's assume we had two buyers in the marriage. The WW is the first to go "renter" and says because I'm not getting my needs met, it's only "fair" for me to go outside my marriage. She may even be freeloader. Certainly she's no longer a buyer.

So let's not forget that having an affair is proof the WW is a not a buyer. So any decision she makes is likely from the renter or freeloader perspective. We see that when WW basically want the affair forgotten and they want their husband's "tuned up" so they don't have another affair.

The BH WILL have this perception. I doubt many BH's are going to take the news of his wife's affair as proof she's a buyer in the marriage. Chances are, he's going to seriously doubt his status as a buyer at this point. He may consider himself a renter. He may go back and forth, renter, buyer, renter, buyer, he may even go to the freeloader status for a while.

The situation the WW has placed herself in is that she wants her husband to be a buyer when she's not fully demonstrated in word and deed that she is a buyer.

So when he makes his respectful request for something that is not immoral, fattening, illegal, banned in TX, or degrading, and she says no with the BH knowing it's something she provided the OM because the tapes from the PI showed her engaging in that very act, do you think he's going to be convinced she's a buyer in the marriage and that she's turning down the respectful request because it degrades her?

Even if it's true, she has a credibility deficit she has to overcome with her own actions. She has placed herself in that unfortunate situation where she has to prove a negative. It is unlikely her BH is going to view her as innocent until proven guilty. Instead, she has placed herself in the camp of guilty until proven innocent due to her choice to have an affair.

It may not seem fair, but then buyers don't operate on the notion of fair. The burden is on the WW to find a way to convince her BH that she is a buyer and looking to meet his ENs in an enthusiastic means.

We can discuss how wrong the BH is for feeling the way he does after being betrayed. But the bottom line is, the WW has to demonstrate she is safe and a committed buyer in the marriage before she can expect that he'll return to being a buyer.

She starts with a deep credibility gap due to her personal choices.

Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

EE, it is my understanding that Plan A is primarily a tool used by the BS to end the A and get the WS to recommit to the M. I know it has been suggested that the WS could do a form of a Plan A with a BS who withdraws from the M after discovering the A, but that is not the norm.

The fact is, most of the time, it is the BS who comes to this site looking for support, and Plan A is presented as way to get the WS to want to end the A and stay and work on the marriage.

My H did a form of Plan A with me, though we weren't on this site yet, so it wasn't exactly a typical MB Plan A. When I was in my A, I was not in love with my H. If he had come to me and told me that I had to prove my love to him by implementing a Plan A, I would have thought he was crazy. I probably would have left. My M hadn't been good for a long time (and yes, my H was well aware of this and we had many discussions about it prior to my A) and when my A started, I was pretty much done with the whole thing. If my H had expected me to stay, without any reasonable expectation that our M would be any better, then I doubt I would have stayed.

What you are asking for would be ideal - the WW who immediately recognizes the error of her ways and turns away from the A with no incentive whatsoever and decides to commit herself fully to her H and her M with no work on his part whatsoever, but it rarely happens that way. Women are far more likely to have an A after determining there is no hope at all for their M, so if he wants the M to succeed, then the BH is going to have to show his WW a willingness to work on the issues in the M that led to the A in the first place.

And no, this is not a justification for a woman to have an A. An A is never the answer to a bad M. But it is reality that a woman has generally checked out of her M emotionally before she has an A, and recovery is going to be far less likely if you expect her to do all of the work to save a M that she isn't emotionally invested in to a man that she in all likelihood isn't in love with at the moment.

If that is the case, then she is not working SMART. Many spouses just do what they THINK the other wants and they miss the mark. The solution is to do it in a way that achieves that purpose.


Agree with this. But it really isnt hard to understand the policy of Undivided attention and the 4 intimate emotional needs. It will be up to each spouse to tell the other if they are effectively meeting their needs or not.
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They should start doing this [it is 20+ hours in this situation] ASAP after they have decided to recover the marriage. Waiting will make it worse. Once the WS ends the affair, it will be important to fill the vacuum with something good - OR something bad will ensue.


Having 20+ hours per week of UA helps her maintain NC. But this is not about "trust" this is about establishing a completely transparent lifestyle that makes it virtually impossible to contact her affair partner again.

It is not good to WAIT for this, but to make the WS demonstrate marriage building behavior NOW, not later. If she won't do that, then he has no reason to hang around.

And if a woman calculates and discovers this would still be a net loss, you think the sacrifice is still called for?

Wow; I haven't seen that one before. Do you have a link to the original?