Exactly. You now understand how destructive the notion of "fairness" is and how that renters practice can lead to affairs, etc. That is how it works, the renter will make sacrifices. And when equal sacrifices ["fairness"] are not forthcoming, the renter feels ENTITLED to keep score. This is how many affairs begin: with the thinking that "by God, I have given and given so now it is my turn!!!"

The solution is to END renters practices, not to indulge them. The couples have to learn to never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other.

Understand. Yet the emotional cost Dr H talks about is a form of sacrifice. Otherwise, he wouldn't call for plan A to be of a fixed period.

So while plan A isn't about making sacrifices, plan A is a form of sacrifice itself. I think you would have a hard time proving that plan A is not a form of sacrifice. I believe it is. One in plan A is giving to their spouse without expectation of anything in return. That is Dr H's definition of sacrifice.

But it has a definite end because Dr H knows that sacrifice is not a sustainable way to run an ongoing marriage.

I'm not suggesting that the WS make sacrifices. What I am suggesting is they may have to be in the plan A stage, which is meeting EN's and avoiding LB's without expectation of anything in return for a period of time.

I see so many asking about what the BH is doing, is he engaging in 15+ hours, or meeting needs.

I agree, the BH will have to ultimately get on board with those things. I've never argued against that. What I have asked about, and it's not been answer to my satisfaction is how does the WW provide credible evidence when the evidence the BH has indicates she is not credible?

How does she provide a convincing case of the value of being a buyer in the marriage when she's demonstrated something far less than being a buyer in her own actions?

Nope, if she thinks the affair partner is worth more than her husband, then she's not even going to consider her husband, regardless how well he plan A's.

Now I don't think a WW or WH is in any place to make a sound judgment. But we are not allowed to judge for them.

Any WW, WH, BW or BH can do the marriage calculus and decide if their spouse is worth the effort.

Like I've said before, if I'm betrayed again, I've already done the math and a WW is not worth my continued effort. A WW would have to present a pretty compelling case to get me to change my mind and she has about a nanosecond from the time I find out she's a WW.

Any hint of anything other than remorse and repentance, any blame, excuses or anything of the sort will only serve as a confirmation the marital calculus was done correctly and the right answer was found.

We all make value judgments and it would take a pretty exceptional wayward for me to find them worthy to take back after such a selfish destructive act.

I don't agree it is about giving without return. The point of Plan A is to only demonstrate a willingness to meet the needs of the WS in the FUTURE if the affair is ended. It is not supposed to be about sacrifice at all. In fact, I would assert it is almost impossible to meet the needs of a WS who is in an affair.

If a BS is engaging in sacrifice, he needs to STOP!

This is a misunderstanding of many BS' that Plan A means they are supposed to "meet needs." This perspective only leads to greater frustration when they see it is next to impossible. They then are reluctant to go to Plan B because they under the illusion they have not done a good plan A, because they have misdefined it as "need meetin."

Who determines if the request was respectful?

After the affair has ended, the time for Plan A is OVER. It is time to get to work or get out. The WS either commits to a plan of recovery or the BS is damning himself to a death of thousand cuts.

If there is no plan of recovery, there is no use in going on. This is why I tell you BS to sit down and say, dear, this is what it will take to earn my forgiveness and keep me interested in this marriage.

Otherwise there is no point on going forward unless the BS is a masochist who is addicted to PAIN.

I was not talking about calculating between the husband and the lover. I'm talking only about deciding if feeling degraded by her husband is worth it.

I can't find it. This post is somewhere over on the weekend forum. I saved it on 8-25-07 so I know it is older than that!

Actually, I don't find the BH's telling WW's that. It's the actual WW's who are saying, I can't make it up to my husband.

Phrases such as:

1. I could never confess to my BH, he would divorce me.

2. I just can't get excited about having SF with my husband. It just felt so special with my OM, I don't have those same feelings towards my BH.

3. Too much has happened, too much water under the bridge, I could never return to my BH.

4. My BH doesn't want to engage in MB. I can't convince him to enter MB so he will understand how his actions drove me to my affair. (I.E. I cannot take responsibility for my affair, I will blame others such as the OM who tricked me, or my BH who failed to meet my needs.)

5. I simply cannot open up to my husband. I cannot tell him how I really feel.

I see far more of this than I see of vindictive BH's. Most of the BH's I've seen here want or wanted to save their marriages, but their WW's had the above list of things they were unwilling or unable to overcome, or others not enumerated here.

So really, who is it who is putting up barriers, the BH's or the WW's who provide one after another excuse why they won't buy into the plan and confess, end contact with OM, own the affair, and follow the rules for successful marriage building?

Enlightened, can you tell us which Marriage Builders book, article, or posting talks about "reasonable requests"?

Reasonable is subjective. If one of the spouses feel it is unreasonable, it is. It's as simple as that. That's how Marriage Builders works.

Are you trying to further our and your understanding of the Marriage Builders program, or are we discussing your personal opinions?

She has the same right to calculate as the BH has to calculate if he'll continue to tolerate the fact that his respectful requests for something that was freely given the OM and was something that is not immoral, degrading, fattening, illegal in TX, or dangerous is being denied him.

My point is they each get to calculate. And if she's given whatever, freely to the OM, his calculation may produce a different answer than hers.

It may continue to add up to him that she's still wayward and still thinks more of the OM than she does of him.

She's always free to deny the request and to think it's degrading.

However, the BH is equally valid if he think's HE IS BEING DEGRADED if his polite requests are denied when he knows she freely and without reservation offered the substance of that request to the OM, again with the same provisos I've previously given about safe, moral, legal and low or non-fat.

They each get a vote. Not just him, not just her, but both.

He is as free to believe he's being degraded by the refusal as she is to feel by his request.

Reasonable and unreasonable are subjective, that's my point.

Once the WW has fulfilled a request, her stance that it's unreasonable lacks credibility.

I'm not arguing the subjective nature of reasonable or unreasonable. I'm arguing how credible her argument may be given she thought it was reasonable enough to provide the OM.

It's hard to sell that she think's it's unreasonable once she's demonstrated that she found it to be a reasonable request to grant another man.

So I understand reasonable, unreasonable and subjective.

I simply argue that it MAY be unreasonable to expect he finds her refusal of his request reasonable after she's freely found fulfilling that request reasonable when presented by the OM.

The BS believes that their WS would of never have an affair.

The WS has an affair.

The WS does things with for to the OP that they never did for the BS.

The BS has to forgive the affair for recovery.

The BS has to let the accept he won the war but the OP got to win many battles that their WS won�t even let them try to do so post affair.



This BS is getting cheated twice from the same affair.


The BS has to accept getting cheated on two levels. As in two levels as if the WW had an OC. Or three levels when combining a PA, refuse to give what the OP got and WW had OC.

Maybe this is why an OC is a deal breaker for some BH�s for it makes the affair a multiple level betrayal. Maybe most BH�s can only handle one level of betrayal.

How does the BS accept that they never will get what the OP got from their WS?

How is the BS to be convinced that never getting what the WS gave the OP does not keep the BS in second place in the SF department?

I don�t know statistically how much is matters from a male perspective verses female view. But it seems to matter more to a male that he never got what the OP got.

I�m not against a BH coming to terms with a WW that won�t do for her BH what she gladly did for the OM. I just have not seen a case presented that is not 100% flawless.

Like Einstein�s Law of Relativity and the String Theory are not 100% flawless.

Then he is clearly not using the standard proscribed by the POJA, which is never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other. Whether the request is "polite", "respectful" or whatever is irrelevant. What matters is if it makes BOTH sides happy. If not, then it shouldn't be done.

Just because he says he feels "degraded" misses the point once again, because it doesn't take her feelings into account. The feelings of BOTH SIDES have to be taken into account.

So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever? Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?

What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?

Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?

The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship. Did she ever give that to the OM?

There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

All there is in an A is lies, deceit, and a lot of cheap rutting around. A's are entirely selfish.

Does the BS really want what the AP got? Really. I mean, when it comes right down to it, all the AP got was a bunch of junk.

That is not what a BS will think, writer, nor is it likely the reason a WS stays in the beginning and it will not be for quite some time.

Commitments and promises were broken to the BS. Nothing the BS got showed desire, love, care, commitment, etc. That is why a BS struggles and we ride the rollercoaster.

I've suggested that she rebuild her credibility before she take on the task of trying to change her BH's mind.

The issue is not the request. The issue is that her credibility is non-existent at the point she rejects the polite request.

Until her credibility is restored, no action would be ultimately satisfying.

True. I was directing this specifically to The Road, who has been on this site for quite some time and still seems to hold a lot of resentment. I don't know his story, since he never shares it, but he doesn't seem to be in the "beginning" of this process anymore, and yet I see a lot of resentment in his posts even after being here for a number of years.