And such promises were demonstrated to be worthless after the affair, therefore it's difficult to present a credible argument that the WW is giving her BH something special she didn't provide the OM.

With respect to commitment, she gave her BH exactly the same level of commitment she gave the OM by having the affair.

Her broken vows serve to demonstrate how worthless those vows were to her. They demonstrate how ordinary she considers her BH.

Her actions speak far louder than the words of her vows, and those actions do not indicate a credible commitment after the affair is discovered.

A BH would be well advised not to trust the words of the WW, even if she's saying she's committed to restoring the marriage. After all, she already vowed she would forsake all others, and we know how much that was worth.

Now she MAY prove by her actions that she does value her BH and her family, but she is not credible simply because she says the right words.

Here is a watch out for ANY BS who really wants to recover his marriage. NEVER allow your spouse to agree to something that makes them unhappy. Do not go along with it. INSIST on finding a solution the other is enthusiastic about. If not, you are just harming your marriage further.

This is a huge mistake that erodes the love in a marriage and will further cripple a bad one. It was this kind of sacrificial thinking that crippled the marriage in the first place.

It is better to get into the habit NOW of never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other spouse. BOTH spouses should start practicing this NOW as part of a committment to recovering the marriage.

And how does she rebuild her credibility?

By doing things that you phrase as a "polite request" which may not seem polite to her at all.

And who is this H who is making "polite requests" and still being turned down? I don't recall a WW coming on here stating that her H was making polite, perfectly reasonable requests for SF and she simply wasn't able to fulfill them. That wasn't the original situation that sparked all this interest in what the WW was willing to give the OM vs. what she was willing to give her BH.

I wasn't talking about mere words. I was talking about a demonstrated commitment. Writing that NC letter, setting up extraordinary precautions, being completely O&H with her BH, etc. These are things she can DO to start gaining credibility.

Simply engaging in SF acts that she finds offensive or unpleasant (no matter how reasonable they may seem to her BH) will not improve her credibility.

I don't know a single true FWS on this thread that is saying that. This is a straw man at best. And yes, true FWS's are rare. But there are some on this site, and there are some who have posted on this thread. And as important as it is for a WS/FWS to do whatever they can to make amends.....at some point the BS decides to A) have a loving restored M B) divorce and move on or C)stay married but make sure the WS never forgets how awful they are (indeed let's make sure NO FWS forgets how awful they are) and hold onto the pain like grim death. I can understand all three responses, but honestly, just like I lose all sympathy for a WS who won't confess or take responsibility, after awhile it's hard to feel sorry for someone who is so very enamored with their bitterness. Now, several who read this will reconcile what I am saying be deciding that I haven't earned my "F" after all and am still a skank. But the one and only person whose understand of my "F" status really matters lives in this house with me, and he KNOWS my heart.

I remember the question being bantied about here before: do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Well, do you want to have a threesome/anal sex/ orgy/ whips and chains/ homemade you tube videos/ etc. or do you want to be married?

I know this is not a 'funny' topic but LOL luri. I have to go run errands.

Combining my answers to both write1 and MelodyLane.

That's the catch 22 isn't it. Both denying the act and providing it don't resolve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that her credibility is destroyed.

As I said before, I'm not talking about the case folks seem to want to link this to. I'm talking about all those cases where we have a WW who says she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but just can't get excited about ANY sort of sex with her H.

So her husband has been making respectful requests for sex every day of the week. He knows she met the OM for a "nooner" every day, so frequency isn't some sort of immoral act. Yet she still refuses to engage in SF. She simply says no, says she doesn't "feel" it, but provides no input to her BH regarding what would get her in the mood. She simply expects her BH to accept she doesn't want it, ever, and for him to simply wait until she tells him the secret combination that apparently only the OM knows.

So the BH, wanting SF is thought to be unreasonable because he wants sex and wants the same or gasp even MORE enthusiasm than was presented to the OM in the tapes provided him by the PI.

So the BH has seen her approach SF with the OM with abandon, and he's continually told that he's being selfish for wanting a mutually enjoyable and enthusiastic sex life.

She has a credibility gap at this point, and tell him no does nothing to improve her credibility in light of the other evidence.

I'm sure I could find all sorts of threads where the WW says she doesn't want SF with her husband, but gushed about how great it was with the OM.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's certainly not an unrealistic expectation of her husband to want a fulfilling sex life. But he's supposed to accept that as the state even though the OM was having what the BH would consider a very fulfilling sex life.

It may very well be the WW needs to figure out why she is unwilling or unable to give her BH the keys she gave the OM with respect to unlocking her sexuality.

As long as she withholds those keys, she lacks credibility.

Imagine how many BH's were sexually unfulfilled, but DID NOT have affairs, and they witness their wives opening up to the OM, but are still adamant in their refusal to the BH. So the WW has gone off and had her affair. Meanwhile, the BH's sex life is the same or worse, and it wasn't fulfilling prior to her affair.

Is he really going to believe she's a buyer in the marriage as long as there is the same or more refusal than prior to her affair?

Chances are, she was refusing him just plain old vanilla sex before her affair, and given she's probably still under the control of her taker, what are the chances she's suddenly willing to see her husband's desire as normal and healthy and a legitimate emotional need.

If she didn't before the affair, it's unlikely she will after the affair. Certainly telling him no isn't going to convince him that she loves him. After all, he didn't feel loved before the affair when she refused him. So it's unlikely she'll feel loved after.

So what is she doing to address her obvious contradiction with respect to the legitimacy of meeting her BH's vs the OM's need for SF?

Instead of saying no, what is she offering that her husband will find as good if not better?

If she's saying no to ALL sex, then is the problem really the BH? Or is it her view of her BH?

That seance I had a couple of weeks ago where I channeled Tawanda from Fried Green Tomatoes has really affected me.

So if she's saying no to ALL sex with her BH, then how is she building credibility? How is she showing him love, care and the willingness to be a buyer in the marriage?

After all, it's you that is assuming the requests are offensive or unpleasant. What if they are not. What if he simply wants plain vanilla sex with a side order or reasonable enthusiasm and he's still told no.

Again, everyone is ASSUMING the requests are degrading, something they would find unacceptable, or that the BH is the primary trouble maker.

Who says those are valid or even reasonable assumptions?

OHHHHH, now THIS is different. I assumed that this thread was about the same old "she pretended to be a six legged alien with the OM but won't do it with me on camera," routine.

Now, not having SF at all is a whole other thing, in my mind. Honestly, this is something I can't relate to because SF is one of my top EN's. Yeah, if I had refused to have any SF whatsoever with DH after my PA......that would need to be addressed. Because "normal" SF really is like every other need, according to Harley, so saying a spouse would meet a, b, and c....but not SF 'cause that's different, isn't MB.

That makes more sense. I was thinking you meant she needed to suck it up even if it was dirty and degrading.

No, regular sex is pretty simple. Either all EN's are valid or they aren't. And if they are, then SF isn't exempt.

Now if you are going to limit the topic to what's been presented on this thread, then you have to exclude the requests for threesomes etc as well, as I clearly am not talking about that.

However, others want to bring in things from other threads. If that's valid, then I'm allowed to bring in the attitudes of WW's I've seen here, which include refusal to have any sort of sexual relationship with their BH, or the refusal to confess, or to engage in a dialog, or to put into place protections, etc.

You cannot play the card that you've not seen something in this thread to counter what I've said if you are not willing to play the same card on those who've tried to bring in elements from other threads.

So let's have a consistent set of rules. If I'm not allowed to reference WW's from other threads, others cannot reference threads where the BH wanted threesomes, etc.

I'm willing to converse, but I don't want special rules placed on me that don't apply to others.

EE, if you had read some of the responses to OOK's thread, especially by a couple of brand new people, you'd know why we were so.....emphatic. They were pretty.....crass and uncalled for.

But as you pointed out regarding the FWW's.

Do you understand why I'm calling double standard? Others are allowed to pick and choose from the user provided content here, but I'm singled out for doing the same.

Not to mention, since my very first post, I made it abundantly clear that what the BH was requesting would not be considered degrading or offensive, even by a Texas nun, LOL. I realize TX nun's don't have sex and have a side arm to keep it that way

Exactly. To do otherwise places the BH & WS in the same boat ook and her BH are in right now. Refusing to make POJA a part of the marriage has them where they are today. I don't think it's working for them.

I feel the same way. There is a point where a BS may be indulging in 'secondary gain' by continuing to strangle the A after it's already dead, something akin to wriggling a loose tooth that they keep wedging back into place long after it's ready to fall out.

I hesitated to post that because I have never been a BS. There is no way I can know what it is like. And though my DH went through enormous pain, he seemed from the get go to have this deep desire for us to be restored. Not to say there wasn't lots of anger.....but he really really wanted to shed it.

If I ever were a BS, I'd probably be the worst most irritating one ever.....it takes a strong person to go through that.

But you are referring here to the attitude of a WAYWARD wife who has in no way earned her former. The only WW's I've seen here who refuse to have any sort of SF with their BH are the ones who are still caught up in the fog and most likely still involved in an active A. I do not know of any FWW's on this site who refuse to meet their BH's needs or refuse to tell him the truth about their A or do any of the other things you listed. If they were refusing those things, then they would be considered a WW not a FWW.

And, if you're expecting an active WW to engage in Plan A type behavior or do any of the hard work necessary to recover her M, then you are living a pipe dream. This is where Plan A comes into play by the BH, to end the A and get the WW engaged in the M again so that she can want to start meeting his needs. If she falls in love with him again, then she will want to meet his EN's. That is the key.

Frankly, to me and to Dr Harley, it's not worth it to plan A a WW. He's said he would not try to win Joyce back if she betrayed him, and after my failed attempt years ago to win back a WW, I see the wisdom of his position.

Therefore, if anyone is doing a plan A in my scenario, it must be the WW trying to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse. Because in my calculus, after having tried and seen the nearly (I said nearly) impossible task of winning back a WW, I'd not try it again.

I would consider watching a repentant WW and if her actions were consistent with someone who proves with those actions she knows her affair was wrong and the importance of just compensation of her BH.

But to actively pursue a WW, I'd not suggest anyone take that route if they asked my opinion.

If they asked me HOW to pursue a WW, I'd suggest MB. But if they wanted to know if I would do that if I were in there shoes, I'd say no way.

So I view this from the perspective that the WW has ended her affair and wants to convince her BH to take her back.

That's a pretty common scenario here with respect to many if not most the WW's we see here.

If we see a WS, it's usually a WS who wants to win the BS back.

We usually see one of the two, either the BS or the WS. So if we have the WW, we probably do not have the BH here. Therefore, any advice will likely be to the WW with respect to winning back her abused, BH.

And this WW, who wants to "win back" her BH and regain his love and respect would be more than willing to do what it takes to meet his EN's (including SF) so she really wouldn't fall into the scenario you have set forth here in the first place.

I have seen a few WW's come here recently who have not ended their A's yet or necessarily even told their BH that there has been an A. They seem to be the ones who are not willing to meet the need for SF.

The only WW I've seen on here lately who wants to recover her M but is having difficulty doing so because of issues with SF is Ookfish, and her difficulties revolve around the fact that her H is expecting things in the department of SF that she is very uncomfortable with and would be detrimental to the recovery of her M. But you don't want to talk about her.

You want to talk about some fictitious WW who is repentant and wants to recover her M and realizes the damage she has done to her BH, but still doesn't want to have normal, run-of-the-mill SF with him. Only problem is, I haven't seen anyone on this board (certainly not recently) who falls into that category. In fact, a truly repentant WW who is committed to working on the M wouldn't fall into that category. Why are we talking about a situation that doesn't even exist?

Like I said, many can say they want to recover their marriage, but how many actually do? How many actually confess, say they were wrong, own the affair, etc.

There are many WW's. There are few FWW.

I'm suggesting how a WW can transition to a FWW. But few choose to do that. And that is in no way fictional.

In fact, I'd suggest that while there are FWW, they are so rare as to almost seem to be the ones who are the fictional characters. No offense intended towards those who are truly FWW. In fact, I mean it as a compliment, because those who are truly FWW are a rare breed.

While WW's are a species in overpopulation status

Many come here SAYING they want to win their husbands back, but only a select few actually choose to do the work needed to do so. Instead, I read from most the myriad of excuses why they had the affair, why they won't meet the BH's needs, how they can't get their husband in to MB for a tune up, etc.

I've clearly spoken about WW's. The only time I've mentioned FWW is in response to your assertions about FWW's. Until they've actually done the work to the satifaction of their BH, they are still BHs.

And in some cases, they may NEVER be able to satisfy their BH. Then I simply suggest they become an XW.

But we cannot, nor should we assume that the BH is being unreasonable. There may be cases where the BH is unreasonable. But I don't think that's the normal circumstance. Most BH's I know simply want their WW's to end the affair, confess, be 100% open and honest and get down to the business of proving she is a safe and committed spouse.

I find few WW's outside the few here who have earned their FWW status who are actually willing to do that.

Even Dr H says it's rare for a WW to apologize for the affair. If that's the case, do those who fail to apologize really earn their FWW status? Or has the BH sacrificed the best for good enough?

In my calculus, I say he's made a sacrifice, and not one that will make his marriage any better.