It's an underlying issue, but its not a "catch 22." The solution to a credibility problem is to demonstrate credibility. Of course that is an issue in all adultery cases. Doesn't prevent recovery though.

I don't know how "rare" that really is when we have several posting to this very thread.

Besides, rare is a relative term. Nor does it mean anything when we have someone who is truly sincere about recovering her marriage. That is what counts. When someone wants to do so, we have a solution. If you don't want to do that, it is her perogative.

Saying something is "rare" does not mean the person shouldn't try.




Not if he ends up with a great marriage. Sure, we take a chance staying with a cheater. But many of us here have great marriages to show for it.

Frankly, if someone is unapologetic, I don't see how you can ever have a great marriage. There is no confirmation that they ever think the affair was wrong.

Just because they ended it doesn't mean they ended it because they thought the BH was a better choice or that they thought what they did was wrong.

It could be their affair partner dumped them, and they are simply returning to their "Plan B" which was the BH.

That's why, even though Dr H says it's rare, one of my non-negotiables would be an apologetic WW. Anything less is simply unacceptable.

Ending the affair would not be sufficient. There would have to be real remorse and a real apology along the lines of David in Psalms 51.

Now that's the apology we should expect from a WS. That's the example right there. Anything less simply doesn't cut it with me.

EE, I get it, I really do, and my calculus is really similar. But, the Harley's are adamant that:
* Plan A is not sustainable
* If you aren't willing to do something, you shouldn't include it in Plan A.

When trying to bring Prisca on board with this program, I remember on at least one occasion talking to Steve about something Prisca wanted me to do that made me feel uneasy. (We're not talking wild sex here; it was a different EN. ) Steve's response, even though I was in the midst of trying to work hard to meet my wife's EN's and show her how the program could benefit her, was still "Well, that's something that should be negotiated in the future, down the road." He did not even suggest that I do it anyway to win over my reluctant wife.

If I remember right, I thought it over and did it anyway. Then at the next downturn in our relationship, I was filled with resentment over it, resentment that wouldn't have even been there if I had just left it alone and looked for other ways to meet my wife's emotional needs.

I was just reading posts from Dr. Harley on the private forum this morning, and noticed a post where he specifically said that not doing something is not a sacrifice. A sacrifice only happens when you do something you don't want to do.

There's more to that concept that I think he expresses better in later writings like some of his newer books. Have you read about type A and type B resentment, EE?

No, I've not read about them.

If someone resents apologizing they simply are not worth the effort.

I admit, it's a litmus test. A WW really is no place to make demands if she wants to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse.

Think of it as my personal boundary statement. I am not willing to remain in a relationship where there are no apologies for adultery.

Just as some are not willing to live with being hit, yelled at, or whatever, I'm not willing to remain in a relationship where my spouse is unwilling or unable to apologize for her hurtful actions.

If that's a character defect on my part, so be it. If I'm the bad spouse and the WW is a victim of my boundary with respect to an apology, then I'm a bad spouse and frankly I can live with being thought of as a unreasonable spouse by a WW who thinks the best, most loving course of action is to refuse or remain unwilling to apologize for her affair.

That's a label I'll gladly take, and live with the truth that it really doesn't apply. In that scenario, the one making the judgment is not credible.

I think this says it best:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Now I really don't see how the WW can convince her husband that she understands the hurt she's caused, as Dr H suggests here AND still never apologize.

If one knows they've done a hurtful thing, and they accept responsibility for that, then they would logically apologize.

Therefore, an apology is an important part of what Dr H is calling for the WW to do in this article.

How did we get from a WW's willingness to fulfill her BH's need for SF to apologies?

By the way, I did in fact apologize to my H for my A, not while I was in it, but afterwards, when the fog finally started to clear.

He also apologized to me for his A and for the pain that he caused me.

Probably the same way we got from my statement of a BH making respectful requests to have his SF needs met to his requests being selfish demands.

It's a message board, it happens.

�So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever?�

No. SF activities should be agreed to in relationships.

�Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?�

WW didn�t tell the OM no. WW did it to please OM.

WW has no problem telling BH no. WW refuses to enable her BH meet the need to even the score against the OM.

�What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?�

According to OOK sick. But OOK did it and never got sick is what the BH knows and saw. The WW say�s one thing, but actions were the opposite.

How is the BH to process that?

�Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?�

No. How is not giving what she gave the OM going to do those things for the BH?

In some ways I think an OC would be easier for the BH to accept then not giving the BH what the WW did for the OM. Even multiple OM.

It seems that the WW need not do anymore what she did with the OM is more important then the BH to get what she gave the OM. I think both there needs are valid.

However no one wants to follow do as I say not as I do.

What was good for the WW and OM is just as good for the BH.

You realize, from reading what Dr H says how rare this is.

I can't find the quote right now, but I've seen it before, WW's seldom apologize for their affairs.

I got me a rare fish!

Also; I need a popcorn-eating smiley for this thread.

They don't seem altogether that rare on this site.

So, it's good for the H to engage in a threesome with his wife and someone else?

Glad to provide some entertainment.

There really are better things I should be doing. I'm just trying to avoid writing today. Seems to be working.

I don't think this site is a representative sample of the world. It represents folks who are motivated to save their marriages, or at least think they are.

So you are going to see more FWW than is in the real world sample. You'll see more BH's who save their marriages than in the real world, etc.

So I tend to go with what Dr H says, which is most women who betray and/or leave their husbands are not leaving abusive or adulterous men. Rather they are leaving men who simply didn't have a clue about meeting their wives needs. And few actually provide a clue he can use.

I believe most act as T.C.'s wife did and harbor resentment without actually communicating it to their husbands.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

They may THINK they are, but logically, if they were, would their husband really be dumbstruck as we see so many BH's here if they really do love their wives and yet are blindsided by their wives walking out, or having an affair?

We assume that the WW was an expert communicator and her BH ignored her requests. However, I doubt that's really true. I suspect if any requests were made at all, they were either indirect, or so buried in LB's that there was no hope of the BH understanding.

I really do believe this is the majority of cases. No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

If we give one spouse the benefit of the doubt for being rational, then wouldn't the other be deserving of that benefit?

We even give WS's the benefit of being rational. After all, it's rational for someone to chose the means they think is most likely to get their needs met.

It may not be LEGITIMATE, but Dr H's teaching indicate it's a rational choice. It's the natural outcome when the taker is in charge without balance from the giver.

The longer EN's are ignored, the more likely the Taker will exert power over the giver.

I don't think anyone is saying that. What folks have consistently said is if the WW said with her very actions that it was good enough for her to engage in some activity with the OM, it's going to be a difficult sell for her to convince her BH that the same activity is not good.

I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying she may not have the credibility to present an answer that is convincing to her BH.

It gets even harder when the request is not something many find morally offensive, such as a threesome, but just plain old enthusiasm for SF with their BH.

Either way, even if it's something we find offensive, one has to acknowledge the difficulty of the circumstance and how this appears inconsistent to the BH.

Maybe the BH isn't worth returning to. Frankly, I'd put one who wanted a threesome in that category.

However, since this thread is pretty general, and I didn't see the OP reference that particular case, it's not so specific. So the scenario in play could be any scenario, including respectful requests for something denied prior to the affair that was given to the OM that in no way is degrading, dangerous, deleterious nor demoralizing.

(gotta love me the alliteration)

I have said before and will say it again I am against 3somes.

How is the WW to give the BH what the OM got?

What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?

You tell us, TheRoad. You have been on MB for 3 years so you should know the answer to this. I am not inclined to educate someone who has been here for 3 years. That is not our job.

And how would that enthusiasm be wrought? See, that is the key here, EE. I agree very much with you that the goal here should be a mutually satisfying sex life. But that is not the case in a bad marriage that is crippled by an affair. There is no romance, no passion. That has to be created.

The solution is to use this program to fall in love. And in order for that to happen, BOTH have to be on board.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html