Sounds like the more common story to me. Requests buried in Feminine Mystique and/or Love Busters.

How many actually POJA?

Not many at all.

The, uh, "feminine mystique" part was kind of sarcasm.

I was apparently supposed to be a mind reader, and know clues and signals for things which I was briefed on in the prior to the mission.

More sarcasm. She spoke a different language; she was so used to me doing all the chasing, all the pursuing, that when I didn't, she took THAT as rejection.


I won the "I'll show her how she makes me feel" lottery. The prize? SUCKS.

I do know that one thing said on MB a lot is that each person is supposed to clean up their own side of the street. So it's pretty certain that when one spouse (or both) is reveling (or wallowing) in the other side of the street the M is not going to improve. And if the M is over......then it needs to be over. If DH had decided to leave me, I would hope A) he would let go of me and move on with a happy life and B) that every other woman on the planet wouldn't be made to suffer for my choices

No...I never said that. I have the MB books. I also have that other book which I found to be pretty truthful and inline with much (not all) of what Dr. Harley describes....why women lose hope.


I'm saying that efforts were made to be more clear but even when the message is clear, the H didn't want to hear it.


Agreed


I have read Why Women Leave Men many times, EE. Nowhere does it say that these men are not abusive, lazy, etc. From that article:

"When all forms of spousal neglect are grouped together, we find that it is far ahead of all the other reasons combined that women leave men. Surprisingly few women divorce because of physical abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, criminal behavior, fraud, or other serious grounds. In fact, I find myself bewildered by women in serious physical danger refusing to leave men that threaten their safety."

That few women leave because of the reasons listed above does not mean the element is not present...only that the wife didn't leave the marriage over it...she sucks it up. Most women I know put up with a lot...primarily because of the children. I'm sure there are men that do the same but the article is about why women leave.


If the desired result is not being achieved it could be that the message isn't being delivered in an effective manner. I have never disagreed with that. But there are men (and women of course) who simply don't "listen" or want to hear what the other spouse is saying because they have already made up their mind that they are right and the other spouse is wrong, etc. I think this dynamic is seen in most marriages that are having problems.

When I spoke with Steve, he agreed that men (IN GENERAL) don't listen to their wives. Isn't that what is basically summed up in the article?

I think that the answer for the BH who is unfulfilled by his FWW's attitude toward sexual relations with him is best answered by the answer that WE actually do the MB plans...

or we don't.

One of the plans is best answered by Dr.Harley himself in his discussion of "The Question of the Ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in a marriage?"

In it he asks the couple WHY should we have sex?

AND

HOW should we have sex?

He teaches the H that having two to three hours of the emotional needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION with his W prior to sexual relations will provide the W with a favorable enviornment for meeting his needs for sex which Dr.Harley reminds women has more to do with his emotional need of SEXUAL FULFILLMENT which his PRIMARY need compared to MOST women's more primary needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION.

ANYONE whether it is a former wandering spouse or betrayed spouse who refuses the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION components of AFFECTION, INTIMATE CONVERSATION, SEXUAL FULFILLMENT and RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP is NOT doing the MB PLANS and is in no position to expect their spouse to continue in the relationship.

If it's not want you want in the marriage whether it be sexual fulfillment or any other emotional need you POJA and meet the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION.

ALL OF IT INCLUDING HOW AND WHY YOU MEET THOSE EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

What is not negotiable is the same thing I told Mrs.Flint in the beginning...

EITHER WE DO THE MB PLANS...

ALL of them.

Or we're done.

She tested me to see if I was bluffing...

I wasn't and she knew it.

I think if I had wavered or not been ready to follow through on ending the M if she backed out we would not have made it and have the M we both dreamed about.

Follow the Plans...

ALL OF THEM.

For BOTH of you.

God bless.

Jim

Indeed, sir.

Suppose the tone of this thread set off the battle of the sexes right from the beginning.

So we do the him/her arguments, blah blah blah.

Don't feel like pouring back over, yet the gynocentric vs androcentric arguments, and the literature and conversations used to support these arguments are ignoring another key statement from within these readings; that in most situations, the only thing preventing an A on the part of BOTH spouses is opportunity for one spouse or the other. The M is just THAT declined.

Also...

In MOST situations...

The FWW...the real deal...will do whatever the BH wants sexually within the bounds of decency. In the end...after recovery...there won't be issues of what she did with or for the OM that she won't do with you.

edited to add: In fact...after working the MB program SF is happening way more often and it's WAY more satisfying TO BOTH OF US than it ever was pre-affair.

Mr. W

Mr. W, I think one reason for that was because both of you wanted your M and each other MORE than you wanted to hold on to the crap - whether the crap be an OM or a gigantic bitter chip on the shoulder. Because no M can recover if either of those things are present.

Besides, veggie crisps w/ a nice low cal ranch are much better than chips...

HHH, I had to read that 3 times before I got it. Shame on you.

I prefer fat free Pringles.

I like Sun Chips, or a nice whole wheat cracker topped with a thin slice of Havarti cheese.

Love a good debate. I'm a perpetual student, and debate is one of the best ways (for me) to learn. It allows us not only to gain new information, but also allows us to examine our own biases and how to move past them (if we are inclined to do so).

This often frustrates the W.

Add a little fun, relax the tone, discuss on!!!

EVENTUALLY....

There was a whole lotta crap the first year of recovery, but I had to decide what was real and what was fog. I certainly didn't KNOW I wanted my marriage. I knew I didn't want what we had pre-affair so I just looked at the situation as an opportunity rather than a impediment to what I really wanted all along....FOR BOTH OF US.

Thinking back...the only fortunate thing about me having had pre-marital sex was I that I was pretty confident that I was pretty good in the SF department. That the sexual hangup matters and difficulty (re)connecting, back then, were about HER and what she was going through and NOT a reflection upon me. It got to a point where I eventually, in frustration, had to point out to her affair sex wasn't all that...that I could go out and have my own affair with any number of women and they'd think it was TREMENDOUS as well...I, too, could put on a show and pull out my best techniques and all, but, in all reality it would be nothing more than EMPTY and MEANINGLESS sf. Fortunately, we were at the perfect time in her recovery that that point sunk in and stuck.

We also went through the hysterical bonding thing ourselves...when SF really wasn't much about making love but rather just having lots of SF. No doubt, IF there was something that she'd never done with me (which there wasn't)...it would have happened during this period of time. That's one way to alleviate the "issues" brought up in these difficult threads...make them a non-issue early on when the wayward is still in the recapturing their youth phase and, most likely, much less inhibited.

We faked it until we made it, I guess.

Mr. Wondering

We did some of that too. That does bring up a point I have wondered about as well. When DH and I married we were both virgins. I am the only woman he has ever been with. But he is no longer the only man I have ever been with. I think that was a very very hard thing for him. We waited 26 and 30 years.....then I added someone else to something sacred. I know that was a point that was very hard for him to move past.

DH never gave me any guarantee past "today" that he was staying for awhile. He needed to see changes in me and honesty in me for awhile first. But once he became comfortable/safe in the fact that I was no longer wayward and was doing the work, he went all in....100%.

DW and I both had a fair amount of partners before we met. Through marriage and time, those previous partners became regrets. However, you can't fix the past. Now I have to apply that thinking to the fact that after 13 years she allowed herself to be hornswaggled. It's not easy.

Previous partners, the OM from the A - I have no competition. Similar to as Mr. W has stated; I work very hard to make myself a desirable partner. Not as much in a physical aspect, but in connecting, communicating, and sharing myself rather than only trying to achieve a self-centered experience. Even then, I am rewarded not only in being fulfilled myself, but by fulfilling DW.

I think there might still be some hysterical bonding still going on. Probably so. However, it is her attitude and approach that has changed, and so I'm even more receptive.

Dunno. Dizzying sometimes.

* I'm still in the "today" spot. At a certain point in the trickle-truth stage, I was more optimistic, and I lost it to the entire horrible truth. At that point, she was "today" oriented because she was convinced I was going to leave once the truth came out.

Actually that supports what I'm saying. They are not leaving abusive, addicted, or unfaithful men. They are leaving men they PERCEIVE are ignoring them, or not paying attention to them.

But how does Dr H go on to describe the men?


These are men who are working hard, and from THEIR PERSPECTIVE, get no praise, just criticism.

So tell me, from reading that article, why do you dismiss the mans perspective, treating it as invalid, while continuing to treat the womans perspective as it's the only one valid?


So more blame the man I see.

This is why men feel the way they do, like nothing ever reaches the standard. It gets tiring to deal with someone who refuses to take any blame and continues to shift blame.

Women choose divorce 2 to 3 times more frequently than men, but it's the mans fault?

Women break up families 2 to 3 times more than men, but it's the man's fault there is no father in the home.

Sorry, but I call B.S.

What you are presenting is the same sort of sick justification used to justify affairs. The wife only had an affair because her husband drove her to it. The wife only left the marriage because her husband drove her to it.

I'm sorry, but both are ugly blame shifts, and should be shouted down on this site.

People own their own behavior. If they choose a divorce, they own it, pure and simple. If they have an affair, they own it, pure and simple.

We see it right here. Instead of you "listening to me" you are grasping at straws, speculating that the women who walk away or have affairs, or whatever they are doing to end their marriages are largely victims.

I don't buy it. I simply don't buy it. I hear what you are saying. But I've looked and in places where the likely hood that custody will be joint or that her husband will get custody, there are far fewer women filing for divorce.

Most women are choosing divorce more than men because they think it's a better deal for them.

Not saying men are morally superior. I think the only reason more men don't choose divorce is because they don't perceive that they can win an equitable settlement if they find themselves in a bad marriage.

Actually no. What's summed up in the article is that men and women both think they are doing a lot of work, and NEITHER believe they are heard by the other.

The man is begging his wife to appreciate what he's doing, and she refuses. She discounts it. It's a vicious cycle. Instead of building him up for his willingness to work, she criticizes the fact that it's not exactly like she wants it.

One is certainly going to tune out when all they think they here is criticism and not praise.

I think you are missing a key part of the article. If you want your man to listen, you better find some things to praise him about, because if all he thinks he's hearing is criticism, pretty soon he won't hear you at all.

Attack problems, not people. If your husband (or wife) thinks they are being attacked, you are not raising the issue in an effective manner.

If your husband perceives he's being criticized, then stop focusing on your husband, and focus on the topic.

Example Attack: "You never take me out."

Example Problem Statement" "I would like to go out for a date at least one night a week."

The first will shut down any conversation, or derail it. The second will focus on the problem.

Both are clear. The first is also clearly an attack, and will result in defense, not communication.

It takes more than being more clear. It takes addressing the problem.

So what suggestions did you come up with? If you told me, I don't feel connected to you anymore, I'd wonder what you were doing to connect, especially if I felt connected to you.

So if you said to me you didn't feel connected, I'd ask what you are doing to connect? You think that's clear, but really, what does connected mean? I might think we just connected last night and I thought it was great. You seemed to enjoy it too, now you are telling me you don't feel connected. Maybe we need to get the kids out of the house and go connect again and see if you feel connected this time.

I say that sort of tongue in cheek, but the reality is it's a subjective term, and if you don't define it, it's going to be hard to find a solution to being connected.
OK, so he listened didn't he? He simply didn't know. Obviously you didn't know either because having an affair doesn't seem an effective way of improving connection with your husband.
Well, you husband listened, and you said so. You were both in the very same state, neither of you knew what to do. Yet some how it was his fault, or he was wrong for not knowing, or more wrong, or whatever.

So was he expecting your affair? No, he was blindsided. He listened, had as much insight as you did, yet he was likely blindsided by your affair.

Did you effectively communicate the solution you wanted in steps he could act upon prior to your affair?

Apparently not since you admit neither of you knew what to do? So how did he fail to listen to you and do what you wanted?

You didn't know the solution, but blame him for not knowing when you yourself didn't know.

I'd say most. Most folks don't know how to communicate, brainstorm, attack problems not people, etc.

I'd say most find themselves in these situations.

I don't see that. Maybe Dr. H will clarify or this could be a radio question. I see it as him saying that despite the other abuses listed that more women file D over neglect than anything else...not that the neglect is imagined or that her H was trying (which he may have been). There may or may not be abuses.

I am not dismissing the H's perception. I do not doubt he is frustrated for a variety of reasons. Perception is not reality though...we'd be listening to wayward fogbabble as reality then. Dr H says:


I don't see that as dismissing men but those are Dr. H's observations, not the perceptions of women. Is he making stuff up?

We can go round and round, EE. In short, women are asked what is on their minds and in their hearts and when an answer is given it is dismissed...you don't buy it...well I don't know what answer will ever be acceptable then. I am not bashing men but if men want to understand the way most, many, 82.57% of women think, telling them that their grievances are imagined, skewed or whatever isn't going to help. I am not saying that ALL men or ALL women are like this or that.

I don't even know how the comment of being morally superior came into play.

"So what suggestions did you come up with?"

My suggestions were that we needed to spend more time together doing things that we both enjoyed. We needed to have more conversations that did not revolve around his job and his interests, since it seemed that all we were talking about at that point was business, self-improvement, and politics (all his interests, not mine) and family stuff related to finances and the kids. He asked what I wanted to talk about, so I told him I would love to talk about books and writing (my interests). His response was, well I don't know anything about those things so I probably wouldn't have much to say. I told him I didn't know much about his interests either, but we still talked about them.

A big issue for me was that my H didn't read my writing. Writing was/is a huge part of my life, and I really wanted to share that with him. He always said he wasn't a reader, so he wouldn't know how to give me useful feedback anyway. I told him I wasn't looking for feedback, it was just a very important part of my life that I wanted to share with him. He agreed to start reading some of my writing, but he never did. This hurt me a lot because it made me feel very unimportant to him.

Guess what? After my A, my H started reading some of my writing. He started reading in general, and talking to me about books and other things he knew I was interested in. I didn't even ask him to. He just did it, because he finally realized it was important to me. He remembered those conversations and incorporated those needs that I had into his Plan A. Smart man. Would have been smarter if he had listened in the first place, but I was very clear on what my needs were and he later (after my A) admitted that and that he simply didn't have the motivation at the time to do anything about it. Putting it another way, he didn't care enough until he realized that failing to change would probably result in the loss of his marriage.

"OK, so he listened didn't he? He simply didn't know. Obviously you didn't know either because having an affair doesn't seem an effective way of improving connection with your husband."

Well, he may have listened, but it didn't result in any action. I knew exactly what we needed to do to reconnect. As I stated above, we needed to have more time together where he talked about/did things we were both interested in. Instead, we were primarily talking about/doing the things he liked and I was bored out of my mind. We did have common interests at one time, but we weren't doing any of those things anymore. I wanted to incorporate our common interests, as well as my interests, into how we were spending our time together and he was perfectly happy going along as we had been, talking about and doing the things he was currently interested in. I certainly didn't mind doing things he wanted to do, but I did mind only doing the things he liked.

"So was he expecting your affair? No, he was blindsided. He listened, had as much insight as you did, yet he was likely blindsided by your affair."

I don't think he was nearly as blindsided as some men would have been, since he had been unfaithful for a number of years in our marriage. I think he was shocked that I would actually go out and do something like that. So was I. But I think he honestly believed that he deserved it. I actually had to fight to take ownership of my A. He wanted to take all of the blame, and I knew it wasn't his fault. Yes, the terrible state of our marriage was partially his fault, but my A was all mine. I was the one who decided that, no matter what and no matter who got hurt, my needs were going to be met one way or the other.

"Did you effectively communicate the solution you wanted in steps he could act upon prior to your affair?"

Yes, to the best of my ability, I think I did. Could I have done more? Probably, but after years of being cheated on and ignored, I had pretty much given up trying. But I certainly told him what I thought was missing in our marriage and what I would like to do to improve it. I got no response. I pretty much got, "this is the way I am, take it or leave it."