You are right, I took the following to say that, and I can see how it really cannot be taken that way:


Sorry I was reading this wrong.

Oh, I've said before there are men who neglect their wives, and that they should work to meet the emotional needs of their wives. I have no quarrel with that line of thinking.

My position is a bit more complex than your simplification.

My position is walking away from a spouse (man or woman) who is not abusive, adulterous or addicted is no different than having an affair.

They both require a renter/freeloader mindset.

At that point, the biggest rock in the jar is not his neglect, but her abandonment if not an outright affair.

To make excuses for this, which it sounds like those who cite the neglect are as welcome as any excuses offered to cover an affair. The justifications and explanations are as offensive to me as any affair justification one might read here from a WS.

If someone who took biblical vows in a church to be with their spouse, forsaking all others, regardless of gender, walks away from a spouse who is not engaged in marital misconduct such as I've described above, I view them as no different from a wayward spouse in an active affair.

The first thing that has to happen is the "affair" has to stop. In the walkaway case, the affair is an affair with the idea that their abandoned spouse is the primary reason why the marriage is bad and things are better without the abandoned or betrayed spouse.

Instead of making excuses for spouses who walk away, instead of blaming husbands by saying they neglected their spouses, why don't we condemn walking away with the same zeal we condemn affairs?

After all, it's certainly a wayward mindset. It's certainly not the mindset of one who is a buyer in the marriage.

Just as she was 100% responsible for her affair and also 100% responsible for problems in the marriage.

She doesn't get a pass from responsibility just because her affair came 2nd.

I don't have some sort of misogynistic view of women. It's a cold calculus, 2/3rds to 3/4s of all divorces are initiated by women.

If you want to save marriages, you start with the largest population who is choosing to end marriages.

Even if you address every man who files for divorce and successfully bring him to MB, you will only impact a minority of divorce cases.

If you can get 1/2 of the women who file for divorce to return to the marriage and implement MB, you will save more families than by approaching men first.

you do realize that those initiating the divorce include the cheated on right? My ex wasn't in any hurry to move out after I discovered the affair he'd been carrying on for 2 years.. and couldn't see why I wanted him gone even though he was sneaking off every night (it took me 4 months to get him out).

and he complained I "surprised him" by formally filing for divorce - after he'd been living with the OW for almost 3 years and been dragging his feet about providing for his mentally and physically handicapped son.

I do realize that.

You do realize that Dr H has said that marital misconduct, such as cheating is not at the core of most divorce filings. He clearly said he is seldom able to convince wives who are victims of such behavior to choose divorce.

Therefore, most of those wives who are choosing divorce are NOT choosing to divorce an abusive, adulterous or addicted man.

I thought I said that before, but apparently it was missed in the action.

I don't fault someone who divorces an unfaithful spouse.

However, I clearly said I'm speaking about the majority of WAW and WW cases where the BH is not engaged in marital misconduct.

That's a serious problem, and it's not the man's fault his wife has broken her vows by divorcing him.

I hope you're not implying that I would treat her affair any differently from his. I did not say anything to imply that she is not responsible for her affair and the problems it caused because hers came second.

I guess I read the following different:


Wasn't one of her responses ultimately an affair? You are saying he was 100% responsible for the problem, including her eventual affair.

That's how I read what you wrote.

Perhaps you would like to clarify?

So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Ya'll still at it?

It could be any number of reasons. I don't think there is one magic answer.

People are different. Some will tolerate infidelity, others will not. Some will tolerate it once and never again.

There are too many variables to pick out a simple set.

I think there are some pretty simple rules when it comes to scripture and what God says we are to do when faced with a sinning spouse.

However, the reasons folks don't follow those rules are as varied as the reasons spouses choose to sin. Folks make choices, men and women both. Some BH's attempt to recover their marriages, others do not. Some WW's end their affairs, others do not.

Why don't all WW who are approached with a BH who is working the MB plan end up with a recovered marriage? Just as the answer to your question is varied, so is the answer to your question.

I don't know whether writers affair 10 years later was a response to her H's affair. I think she has talked about a number of issues that led her to take the decision to have an affair. The affair 10 years later wasn't the "response" I was referring to.

I was referring to the above, where she writes about finding out about her H's affair a week after she was married. She talks about being young and scared, which I took to refer to her mentality during the early months and years of her marriage, not the later years when she had her affair. Writer seems to be saying that she should have responded to the situation without the EN lack and LBs that she did offer. She seemed to see that panicked response as equal to the affair in causing a less than happy marriage.

EE, I wasn't arguing this point with you. I was responding to writer. You don't have to argue with everyone until you wear them down! You and I disagree profoundly on this thread and I have no wish to challenge your views for the sake of an argument.

No worries. I still think there is a disconnect in the 80% of W that leave and cite neglect since there are plenty of BWs/abused Ws in that amount.

Since this thread is here, there and everywhere...

I don't know when the women started cheating as much as men...or how many women stayed because they thought they were stuck due to children, finance, social pressure (I know men may stay for the same reasons too)...but in previous generations we had 'traditional' Ms where plenty of men worked, came home, and didn't talk to their wives. Men were not in delivery rooms and changing diapers like they do today. Men of prior generations cheated more than women on a whole. There was a boys will be boys mentality while the W was at home tending to the children and home. The men and women of this generation learned that. It is not a blame game, that's just the way things used to be.

No doubt there are women that don't care what their H does...they will always complain and want more. Your exWW may have simply been a ^%$#@.

Does a BH really want to make his wife feel dirty and cheap? It is often said that WSs act like they are in high school....cutesy, syrupy goo goo gaa gaa over each other. You know how many teen age girls act like skanks these days to please a boy? Sadly...LOTS!!! It is not done out of love either...it is to keep the boy interested. I'm sure there is some lust factor but a girl will go to extremes to hold on to that attention or be popular...eating disorders to be skinny, giving up her body for attention.

I get that a BH looks at what OM got...BWs look at what OW got too...and it sucks no matter how you look at it or what gender you are.

You don't agree? You think WW's and WAW's should be given some sort of pass and treated like victims, and their BH's are the primary cause of the marital problems and only if they would get their acts together, then their wives wouldn't leave or betray them.

Because that's pretty much what you are saying if you say you disagree with me.

Or are you disagreeing with Dr H's point that the women leaving are not leaving abusive, adulterous or addicted husbands. Are you disagreeing with his observation that is seldom able to convince women who are victims of such marital misconduct at the hands of their husbands to leave, but those who are not victims of such misconduct are the majority of those leaving?

I'm just pointing out what Dr H has said, so are you disagreeing with Dr H?

And that's just it. The men who are here, who are seeking Dr H's help, and so forth are men of this generation. They are the ones taking care of the kids, cooking meals, working a job, and NOT CHEATING.

Yet we are still treated as if we are that previous generation.

Likewise, the women of this generation are NOT like the women of previous generations either. More are cheating, more are choosing divorce, etc. Yet they too are treated like the previous generation, and are considered victims, even when they choose to betray or abandon a current generation man.

Perhaps we start by not applying yesterday's stereotypes to either men or women.

If someone engages in mis-conduct, we don't make excuses, we hold folks responsible for their behavior.

Because we can't see what is going on in someone's house we can only go by the words of each poster and maybe read between the lines if we have to. I am by no means a MB expert but some BH's are not using MB correctly. I know I have dropped the ball at times myself but I do find it alarming when some BH's post stuff that is WHAT? I'm a BW and sure as heck wouldn't feel like having sex with him either based on what he describes but I also understand the betrayal factor as well...so I throw my 2 cents in to try and help if I can. What to do?

**sigh** I give up...LOL....where's the door?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BH�s have said the WW did OM everyday, he can�t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BH�s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldn�t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didn�t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW can�t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?

So, let's get something clear; most posters here aren't blaming their BS for their choices in carrying out an A. What "blame" is put forth, is on the condition of a M which created the vulnerability and opportunity for an affair - in many of these cases there is responsibility both on the part of the BS and the WS for the condition of the M.

That, while it may be argued some, really isn't debatable.

The decisions which opened the tumblers up to and including infidelity belong to the WS, as does it's continuation and all actions to continue and preserve an A.

Post-A and using MB to recover the marriage, this blame game is... USELESS. If any choices and actions are to be reviewed, it is to be done to 1) change attitudes and behaviors to prevent ANY chance of any further extramarital activity by either spouse, and 2) not wallow or dwell in past mistakes, but to acknowledge them and the damage they do to a M, and to prevent them from happening and build a better marriage.

Some people are not going to adopt the principles and adapt themselves to recovery accordingly. This is a matter of responsibility for THAT PARTICULAR PERSON.

Generational comparisons may seem nice, but variables within those generations, when expanded, can render that argument invalid. Not to mention, we are talking about a generation with a 50% divorce rate. Divorce is the "norm," not recovery.

SC, yes that is exactly what I was referring to. I meant that I should have handled my response to my H's A differently when I first found out about it. I would have done things differently if I had known about MB. I would have insisted on NC with the OW instead of allowing her to stay in our lives (and even become my "friend"). I would have done a better job meeting my H's EN's and communicating my EN's to him, had I even known what EN's were. I would have eliminated all of the LB's and AO's that I was guilty of after discovering his A. Heck, I would have actually known that it WAS an A, since I didn't even think it was at the time, since they didn't have sex.

I do not necessarily consider my A to be a response to my H's A. I suppose they are indirectly related, since his A was ONE of the things that created distance between us. But there were a number of other issues in our M as well. IB was a big one when I started grad school and I was busy with all of my writing stuff while my H was caught up in his own interests. We drifted apart a lot after I went back to school.

Mostly, I had an A for the same reason that everyone does. I had really poor boundaries. I found myself in a situation where I was away from home (doing 2-week residencies for my MFA), spending time with people (including members of the opposite sex) who shared my interests. I had no proper boundaries in place, so when I found myself in a situation where an A could occur, it did. I can tell you that when I first started my A with the OM, my H's EA was the furthest thing from my mind. It was actually my H (and our counselor) who first suggested that there might be a connection between the two. I fought that idea at first. I just didn't see the connection at the time. Now, I can see how my H's A was one thing that contributed to our drifting apart that put me in a frame of mind where an A could occur, but it certainly wasn't the only one.