You're really hung up on this, aren't you?

Would you like to share whatever it is about this issue that is still bothering you in your own M so that we can stop talking about hypotheticals here and start talking about actual situations.

What is it that you would like that your WW gave the OM that she isn't giving you?

I just can't address this anymore than I already have, because my H has never complained about this and it hasn't been an issue in our recovery.

He doesn't have to...he has every right to divorce.

But if he stays he better look at the situation realistically.

The affair wasn't about the BH.

She didn't have an affair AT YOU.

The affair sex wasn't about the BH and it really wasn't about OM...it was about the [temporary] craziness going through HER head.

Affair sex is nasty and vulgar.

Marital sex is decent and right.

They ARE NOT comparable.

Marital recovery is about so much more than sex.

What you are saying is essential like me saying that if my wife took off and went on a two month crank bender, I should expect her to be able to stay awake for 4 days straight WITH ME partying it up after she quit.

I didn't want an affair with my wife...I wanted a LOVING marriage and a home full of love. It is my hope that any newbie reading this thread can garner hope from that message instead of viewing a bunch of grown married men complaining that their now FWW isn't satisfying them (apparently) as they perceive she satisfied OM. Dwelling on this issue is unhealthy and won't get to romantic love. Sure there is some "crap" in this issue in recovery but mostly it's about BH insecurity (which is understandable). Trust me....5 years into a good recovery...IT'S FREAKING IRRELEVANT.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wondering.

The answer is in the context of the title of the thread "Helping your BH overcome what you gave the OM.."

The solution is NOT to simply tell them I won't do this or that...

THAT only reinforce the BS feelings of inferiority and that it is HOPELESS that their W will ever value them again and that things will never change...

At a time when they desperately need to feel that there is HOPE for the marriage to be fulfilling AND that their EN's matter to the WS.

AND it doesn't mean either one, the BS or WS has to lie down and give into disrespectful demands...

You help your BH or BW to understand that you WANT to give them what they want by answering Dr.Harley's questions of:

Why do we have sex?

AND

How do we have sex?

If the betrayed spouse wants something sexual you discuss it and come to a mutually acceptable solution as Dr.Harley suggests.

If they won't POJA it (or anything else for that matter) they are not working the MB Plans and the spouse may not be a wise choice to continue being married to.

For me it was that simple.

Either I had somebody that VALUED ME enough to listen to me and MUTUALLY POJA a solution with on EVERYTHING IN THE MARRIAGE or I didn't.

The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex.

If either the WS or the BS won't POJA it they are not a candidate to remain married to.

Because they will be butting heads on not just what they gave the OM...

but EVERYTHING in the marriage...

AND...

that's not a marriage.

Jim

I let myself do it again...get sucked into answering question when someone doesn't really want an answer....they just want another chance to vilify ALL WW's as unredeemable. I'm not playing this game anymore. I should have kept my promise to myself to lurk from now on.

Mr W you are siting extyreme acts. WHat about mundane acts? Instead of responding in general why not respond to specific questions that I asked?

Your posts have added a lot to MB. To stop posting because you are not agreed with only takes away what you can bring here. I am not against WW's. I've seen WW's come here trying to recover their marriage where their BH does not want to recover only to see poster's here fighting to see who got to swing the biggest two by four telling her she has know right to try and save her marriage. Swinging two by fours with two hands.

I swear some MBer�s were using Log Cabins.

I said they were wrong if they are willing to help a BS to recover a marriage then should not discriminate. The WS deserves the same opportunity to try to save their marriage.

"AND it doesn't mean either one, the BS or WS has to lie down and give into disrespectful demands..."

What about non disrespectful requests that are met with a refusal after the ice had already be broken by the WW?

She told her BH it's not my thing before the PA, told OM yes it's my thing.

How is the BH to believe it's beyond the WW's ability to provide in kind to her BH post PA?

"The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex."

Where is the POJA where the WW flat out refuses to give the BH what the OM got?

We are awaiting your answer to this, TheRoad. You have been on Marriage Builders long enough to know the material. We eagerly await your answer.

Again, you have been on MB for 3 years. You should know the answer. You tell us.

That's odd, I answered your questions, and now you are simply walking away? Not even any acknowledgment of my answer either.

IIRC, you simply asked another question. You gave no indication you better understood, or that you could see why I held the view I did.

Nothing.

And now you simply want to walk away.

Fine.

This thread is really confusing me.

I know having an affair was wrong and my poor boundaries.

I have been continually told that if there was something wrong with my marriage. I should address it and try to fix it. Like Writer, I felt like I had.

I thought the next step I SHOULD have taken instead of having a nasty affair was a PLAN B type separation.

Now I am hearing Enlightened Ex state that leaving a marriage for non need meeting is just as bad as an affair.

So, now I am hearing....shouldn't have an affair....shouldn't leave marriage even if you repeatedly informed your spouse in many ways that your needs weren't being met.

What is the option???? If your spouse can't or won't comply?

I've followed many threads where plan be is recommended in non affair situations. Should the spouse remain married but living single forever? Is there a time frame?

I really am confused.

Tell me this, how do you meet your husband's needs if you separate from him?

How do you implement the POJA if you make a unilateral decision to leave?

The problem with most separations, including those where there is no infidelity or abuse on the part of the abandoned husband is it was neither mutually agreed upon in a POJA arrangement, nor was it recommended by someone who is a professional versed in the MB program.

If you and your husband AGREE and I mean ENTHUSIASTICALLY, not one of those resigned to go along with agreements, that separation with specific goals, boundaries, etc is the best solution, then by all means do so.

Or, if you are working with the MB team, and they say it would be best if you separated because we've observed the following and you are doing more damage to your marriage by being with your husband, so to stop the damage you are inflicting, you should go into plan B, then I'm all for it.

Remember, a large part of plan B is to stop the damage, and that's not just the damage done by the other spouse. It equally is to protect against the damage the one following the plans is inflicting on the marriage.

If those are the cases, then I have nothing wrong with that.

However, how many separations follow those guidelines? How many are either mutually agreed upon, or on the advice of a trained professional coaching you through the MB program?

Probably a percentage so small it wouldn't register in any survey.

How can a husband be blindsided if he POJA'ed the separation with his wife? How can a husband be blindsided if he's sitting with the counselor, or on the phone hearing the counselor say the best course of action is to separate until you each can stop hurting the other?

I have no problem with that sort of separation.

Remember, we are talking about cases, which are the majority of all cases, where there is no abuse, no adultery and no addiction.

For those who want to cite, well what about any of those, that's not the topic her, and they are a non sequitur with respect to what I described above.

Take your case and we pretend your H never had an EA.

We are left with a BH that has to accept that his WW had a PA that restarted every time she went to school. And wants to continue getting an education, trigger.

That to keep his family intact has to accept the PA.

That to keep his family intact has to accept the OC.

Outside of ending the affair which should never have happened and being a good spouse which all spouses should do any way , what has the WW done to make up for the PA and the OC.



The BH or BW get what they should of gotten all along does not undo the PA or make an OC be unborn. Before people go crazy yes the OC is blameless, both the WS and the BS can love the OC.

I don�t see just compensation here or after any affair. The WS got the high of a PA. We know that the BS going out for a RA never gets that same high and in the end regrets it and feels empty. The BS never gets the SF rush the OP got from the WS unless there is some HB which does not always happen.

What I see is the BS accepting the PA as over and learning not to trigger as the price they are willing to pay because they value their family life that much that they do this to keep their life intact.

That is not just compensation. That is looking at the bill and after seeing the price they at first wonder is that right or are they looking at the phone number.

The only thing a WS has to pay is that instead of implied fidelity pre affair they now have to demonstrate they will not do so anymore.

This is only fair of the WS, and the BS and the WS both have to work at meeting each other�s needs. But this should have been done since day one of the marriage.

The catch phrase of �Just Compensation� just doesn�t work.

EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).

So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?

I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing.

Your name is writer1, correct? You are a writer and therefore I presume well versed in what words mean.

Please quote a paragraph where I said POJA a plan B?

I did mention POJA a SEPARATION.

The only time I wrote about a plan B was to suggest that it be done under the advice of a trained professional.

Words mean things, and I expect you of all folks, someone who claims to be a writer to either understand the words I write, or ask a clarifying question.

You did not ask a clarifying question. You wrote,


I may be an engineer, but I am sufficiently versed in English grammar to know there is no question in there.

There is a challenge in the second sentence. But the first is not a clarifying question. It's not even an accurate paraphrase. From here it looks like the classic straw man argument. It's a statement that doesn't reflect what I said, attributed to me so you can knock it down or present a challenge.

And I'm calling you on it. Knock it off, you are writer, you should know better. You should have better comprehension skills.

As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site."

I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks.

Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this.

I don't know that I'd be able to do it were I in that situation so I am certainly not preaching to anyone....but YES...seperate and remain married indefinitely.

If you are religious and you took vows to your God to love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, in good times and bad time, as long as you both shall live

THEN

Where is the out for your spouse failing to meet your needs or make you "happy"????

The bible clearly gives an out for adultery (and arguably for physical abuse)...but no where does it say you can toss YOUR VOWS because they weren't making you happy.

You chose....maybe it was a poor choice...but you chose...you don't get a do-over absent specific exceptions or DEATH.

Plan A your spouse...express your boundaries...if they refuse in time...seperate and then Plan B....but no where does the plan say "divorce". Dr. Harley's "plan" comes short of that and allows you to come to your own conclusions about what to do from there.

There are millions of married individuals living seperate from their spouses. The numbers are staggering. For many...divorce isn't an option.

Mr. Wondering