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EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.
If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).
So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?
I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing. How does the BH get to get what the OM got? The BH feels he will have to accept he came in second place to the OM.
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As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site." I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks. Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this. So let me understand this. You attack me with your straw man. Yes, that's an attack. I call you on it. Your response it to ignore being called on it and continue your attacks asserting that I'm attacking you and you furhter try to build a consensus by trying to assert that I'm the one being childish. Whatever. I think folks can see your evasiveness and attacks in what you've said. You are exposed for you who you are. Someone who makes false representations, and that's what a straw-man is, a false representation about someone else, and then you try to make yourself look good by knocking down the straw-man, hoping to look good before others by showing you can out-argue someone. All you did was to expose a fraudulent nature. You got caught and now you are going to run away. But not before you deliver yet another attack. You can't refute what I've said, so you resort to name calling (childish) and run away. Fine, run away. Ignore being called out. Maybe folks will forget you crafted a false representation of my position. I won't!
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But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. Do you understand that this is not true for everybody?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.
If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).
So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?
I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing. How does the BH get to get what the OM got? The BH feels he will have to accept he came in second place to the OM. I understand a BH feeling second best for awhile around D-day...but prolonged feelings of being "second place to OM" are an issue the BH needs to address privately. This is an insecurity issue and not really a marital issue. Plus...it will be/would be very difficult for such insecure man to recover his marriage as WOMEN are attracted to and fall in love with men that demonstrate strength, security and stability. Such insecurities about sex, if harped on...will make the BH appear weak and undesirable making it LESS likely they will ever get the sex or enthusiasm they desire. My recommendation to any BH having these feelings... Fake security Fake strength Fake stability Until you make it.... We are what we THINK. We are what we BELIEVE YOU ARE A GOD IN BED (your fww just doesn't know it yet...but YOU better believe it and act like it and sooner than you think...she'll agree) We recommend waywards fake it till they make it all the time...why not betrayed's too. Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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After reading what ThRoad posted a few frames ago, I think I have a better understanding. And I don't think the answer is good.
There is nothing a WW can ever do to erase an affair. there is nothing I could ever do for my DH to "even the score" or make up for what I did. I can repent, I can end things and be honest and protect the M. But I can never ever do anything super enough to wipe it away or pay for it. It wasn't a fender bender where I can replace his bumper and the car is just like new. It's not like I stole a pair of tennis shoes and can pay for them or return them.
So no, me being the best wife I can be until death do us part isn't special - it's what I always promised to do.
The only solution is to figure out how to live with that. I can do what I am supposed to do for the rest of my life, which includes not living in continual paralysis.
DH can:
1. Divorce me, which would be his right
2. Separate but never divorce
3. Stay with me but brood for the rest of his life
4. Stay with me but make sure I never forget what I did to us so that he always has the upper hand
5. Stay with me, choose forgiveness, choose love, knowing that even though the choice I made 4 1/2 years will never go away, we can have a wonderful M from this day forward
My DH chose number 5. Some men choose number 1. I can understand those. But after awhile, those men who choose 3 or 4 are just being cruel and bitter. And cruel and bitter people are not capable of listening or seeing any point of view other than their own.
I am convinced that no matter what I say or how I say it.....there will still be a "but". And I have already mea culpa'ed enough. I will not do it anymore. I am not longer wayward.
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But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. Do you understand that this is not true for everybody? I think we do. Do you understand that it's not UNTRUE for everybody as well? There are some very legitimate scenarios that have been cited here. Yet there is very little validation of those scenarios. As I've suggested, if the WW was not enthusiastic about sex with her BH before the affair, and the tapes produced by the PI show her in a "very enthusiastic state" with the OM, the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH. Folks have tried to derail the discussion with all sorts of one-off outlier exception cases. But what if the BH has a legitimate gripe, if the WW is steadfast in her refusal, then what? Divorce?
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As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site." I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks. Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this. Before you go back to your baskets can you go through the individual points and questions that I made and please respond. W1, we have agreed and disagreed since you came here to MB. I have never been mad at you. Do not hate you because you were a WW that iced the cake with an OC. Stuff happens. I do feel for you because you had a BH that was not stepping up to the plate. Sad to hear the court trouble you had with your son. You have more then your share off problems. Yet you work to keep life turned around. I�m arguing issues with you not at you. Cite site. I learned something new today. When I raise specific issues or ask specific questions general responses without addressing those issues/questions do not help me to see their point or change mine.
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Let's get back to Marriage Building and stop with the disrespectful posts! If the discussion can't be kept respectful and productive, we will lock this thread.
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But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. Do you understand that this is not true for everybody? I think we do. Do you understand that it's not UNTRUE for everybody as well? There are some very legitimate scenarios that have been cited here. Yet there is very little validation of those scenarios. As I've suggested, if the WW was not enthusiastic about sex with her BH before the affair, and the tapes produced by the PI show her in a "very enthusiastic state" with the OM, the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH. Folks have tried to derail the discussion with all sorts of one-off outlier exception cases. But what if the BH has a legitimate gripe, if the WW is steadfast in her refusal, then what? Divorce? Yes, divorce. Hasn't that been said about 80 times? Why is that answer not sufficient? If your wife is wayward and unwilling to meet your needs the way you want, divorce. I don't understand why the discussion is still going on. Are you under the impression that there's some magic way to force a wife to give her husband what he wants? If you can't come to grips with the fact that you don't always get what you want or expect out of life, this may not be the place for you.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Answered here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2433765#Post2433765I hate to use psychobabble, but all of these questions are coming from a position of "enmeshment" with the wayward wife. You cannot control what she does under any circumstances. There is no foolproof way to get what you want. So, if it's not enough for you, don't stay in the marriage. You don't have to. Any of you guys ever read "boundaries"?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I've been reading along ..."The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex."
Where is the POJA where the WW flat out refuses to give the BH what the OM got? Again, you have been on MB for 3 years. You should know the answer. You tell us.  @ Mel
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...
the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH. Women don't "negotiate" great sex. I've never POJA'ed what my wife and I do in the bedroom. Get her drunk and seduce her. (I joke but I hope you see my point) You aren't likely to achieve "the sex om got" by talking about. Instead...you take your wife out dancing and as appropriate, when the mood is right...you whisper in her ear what YOU want to do to her and with her. The "sex" becomes a product of YOUR prowess and not a degrading reclamation of something you perceive OM "achieved" with your wife (or her body). You don't treat your wife as a piece of meat upon which you get to have YOUR TURN at some specific portion of or action. Create your own sexual union and history. Become more experimental YOURSELF. Stop trying to ride OM's coat-tails. Sure...maybe you LEARNED a thing or two about what your wife is capable of or willing to do....so get her to do those things FOR YOU because she wants to, not because you negotiated it or demanded it. Mr. Wondering
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You do know I'm divorced from my WW, right? I know all to well the futility of negotiating with someone stuck in a wayward mindset.
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...
the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH. Women don't "negotiate" great sex. I've never POJA'ed what my wife and I do in the bedroom. Get her drunk and seduce her. (I joke but I hope you see my point) You aren't likely to achieve "the sex om got" by talking about. Instead...you take your wife out dancing and as appropriate, when the mood is right...you whisper in her ear what YOU want to do to her and with her. The "sex" becomes a product of YOUR prowess and not a degrading reclamation of something you perceive OM "achieved" with your wife (or her body). You don't treat your wife as a piece of meat upon which you get to have YOUR TURN at some specific portion of or action. Create your own sexual union and history. Become more experimental YOURSELF. Stop trying to ride OM's coat-tails. Sure...maybe you LEARNED a thing or two about what your wife is capable of or willing to do....so get her to do those things FOR YOU because she wants to, not because you negotiated it or demanded it. Mr. Wondering I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest.
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I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest. Exactly
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest. Exactly My "partner" enjoys being persued. Being seduced. Being desired. It meets her need for admiration AND sf. Requesting or negotiating what OM got...not so much. Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Question for all...
It has been argued that a BS has a right to divorce or not at the time of the adultery.
Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M?
I, myself, would have a very hard time doing the MB plans and not having a W that would escape her former withdrawal to become a warm, enthusiatic, loving partner that DID THE SAME THING FOR ME AS I WAS DOING FOR HER...
forgiving her...
which means there was no yesterday.
Some FWS's of both genders will protect themselves emotionally by simply EXISTING in the M and NEVER allowing themselves to become part of the NEW marriage that does not include the affair.
They just want to have their M and their BS in it and the kids and the financial security and the whatever they would lose IF they divorce BUT they do not want to COMMIT TO THE NEW MARRIAGE they just don't want to divorce.
They wind up waiting YEARS to have the a new M and don't seem to understand that there is a way to tell if they will be successful.
Refusal to agree to work the MB plans including the POJA of ALL problems in the M is a serious reason to consider ending the M or face a lifetime of disappointment.
Jim
Last edited by Jim_Flint; 10/21/10 10:44 AM.
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Sorry for the t/j ing of the last couple days, Jim. Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M? It is always moral to try and work the MB plans but it is not immoral to divorce them if the BS is not compensated with a loving M. I have no desire to be in a marriage at all costs and seriously wonder why anyone would...that sounds like he//.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Sorry for the t/j ing of the last couple days, Jim. Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M? It is always moral to try and work the MB plans but it is not immoral to divorce them if the BS is not compensated with a loving M. I have no desire to be in a marriage at all costs and seriously wonder why anyone would...that sounds like he//. Hello black raven! Really good to see you. I always look forward to reading your posts.  I guess in thinking back to the early days of our recovery, if things had not progressed the way they did or Mrs.Flint had continued to refuse to work the MB plans with me I PROBABLY would have continued to try for a while longer even without her participation... Which led to me asking myself HOW was I supposed to know whether to KEEP trying or KNOW that I didn't have anything to work with. I'm sure Mrs.Flint pre-recovery would have told me: Well, what's so wrong with us NOW? I mean, the A was SO LONG AGO. What do you mean, you want a divorce NOW? If I had known that REFUSING the MB plans including POJA and the meeting of EN's signaled a VERY dismal prognosis I feel I would have been able to work the plans even BETTER knowing that there was a finite point of either RECOVERY or DIVORCE. Thanks for backing me up.  Jim
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